129 replies to this topic

[TomNokoe]

On 11 September 2004, Juan Pablo Montoya re-wrote the history books (again), setting the fastest ever lap in F1 history.



A lap-time of 1:19.525 around the Autodromo Nazionale Monza translated to an average speed of 262.242kph (162.950mph).

The record has been without any significant challenge for 13 years, however with new aero regulations and unlimited engine development, F1 2017 could smash it's way into the history books.

Challengers


Setting the timing screens purple this year, Mercedes-AMG Petronas (and their Q3 God-mode) enter the weekend as favourites for the record, thanks to their supreme speed in a straight line. The W08 has fantastic aerodynamic efficiency and a spec 4 engine in the back. After taking pole at Monza for the last 3 years, can they go one further on enemy turf?

Scuderia Ferrari have been slightly down in qualifying all year, but after such a strong performance at "definite Mercedes track" Spa-Francorchamps, hope springs eternal that with superior braking stability and agility in slower corners, the prancing horse could yet snatch the record in front of their adoring Tifosi... and what's this about 'steel pistons'?

Data
Below is a quick comparison of all the "engine tracks" we have been to this season, with the lap-time and percentage improvement against last year's cars (which were incredibly quick in a straight line). Also of note are the individual sectors where engine performance is crucial.


The Goal
To better the lap-time of Montoya from all of those years ago, we are looking at a 1:19.524 - 1.611s faster than last year's pole.

KEYS TO THE RECORD (thanks SR388!)
Will the 2017 engines be able to overcome the draggy aero?

 

Where will we find 1.6 seconds? Rettifilo, Lesmos, Ascari, Parabolica?

 

What about the weather? Long term forecasts suggest rain could spoil the party.

 

Mercedes or Ferrari? HamiltonBottas or VettelKimi? Who will etch their name into the history books?

 

Does it even matter? Parabolica has been dumbed down, the engines sound awful, and hey, it's about bloody time someone beat the record!

(Vote using the poll provided!)
 

DISCUSS...

Edited by PayasYouRace, 27 August 2018 - 11:06.
Poll Edited

[rodlamas]

They will get rid of most of the DF/Drag for next week. So I expect straight performance to be close.

On corners there will be some time to be gained, but maybe not 1.5 seconds.

It will all come to tire performance. And we know how much of a crap job Pirelli has done.

[LiftAndCoast]

I think the 2017 generation cars will have too much drag to beat Montoya's laptime.

Though I'd love to be wrong.

Also, I assume that any track changes since 2004 are still sufficiently minor that the 2004 time is still counted as the lap record?

Edited by LiftAndCoast, 28 August 2017 - 03:06.

[Wuzak]

I think the 2017 generation cars will have too much drag to beat Montoya's laptime.

Though I'd love to be wrong.

Also, I assume that any track changes since 2004 are still sufficiently minor that the 2004 time is still counted as the lap record?

 

The track has been the same layout since 2000. Though it doesn't really matter in terms of what the OP was asking - will it be the fastest average speed lap in F1 history (Montoya's beat Rosberg's from Silverstone in 1985).

 

Time could be gained in the chicanes (the first two from tyre grip, Ascari through tyre and aero grip), the Lesmos and the Parabolica.

 

The gains there may be offset by losses in the top speed sections.

[Wuzak]

The sort of wing settings we may expect at Monza

 

http://www.f1fanatic...l_monz_2004.jpg

[TF110]

The sort of wing settings we may expect at Monza
 
http://www.f1fanatic...l_monz_2004.jpg

I miss those cars

[l2k2]

I think the 2017 generation cars will have too much drag to beat Montoya's laptime.

Though I'd love to be wrong.

Also, I assume that any track changes since 2004 are still sufficiently minor that the 2004 time is still counted as the lap record?

 

I would have thought the same before Spa (and even more so before Austria). However, now my degree of certainty has gone down a lot.

 

I think it'll be a close call.

 

The wider 2017 cars, with their wider boots, will gain a lot in the two chicanes, fly through Lesmos at the highest ever speed, (lose some time in the back straight despite the higher initial velocity), scale the kerbs of Variante Ascari faster than ever before (2004 monsters included), and brake latest to the Parabolica. (The straight line speed in the main straight is an open question, I omitted from the beginning, but in Q either Mercedes or Ferrari will most likely use tow, and claim the record.)  

 

They, however, would not beat a 2004 Ferrari or 2005 McLaren with the same Q rules.

 

The final part of the 2004 Q was with racing fuel for the first stint, and well, to be honest, I doubt the Ferraris were really pushing it in the first part with their 1:20.5s (being 9th and 10th). In 2005, Kimi made a 1:20.878 with enough fuel for a one stopper. 

 

I'm glad we have again a proper shootout for the pole, and not some odd format..

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Honda will introduce their Spec4 PU. Why there is no option for McLarenHonda, I have high hopes, pole position and race win. Don't look at me like that.

[ArrowsLivery]

I miss those cars

Why? That was one of the worst eras of F1. For regulations, politics and looks.

[Slowersofterdumber]

They would have to be much faster than the 04 cars. The curbs at the first two chicanes make them much slower than before. The tarmac at Parabolica doesn't make up for it.

[Marklar]

Too much drag and tyres are the same as last year. Voted no, will be close though

[lustigson]

I don't really care, so that's what I voted.

 

On a sidenote, only in China, Britain, and now Belgium, has F1 improved lap times by 4-5 seconds. The average improvement is 'only' just below 3 seconds, with Canada, and Austria around 1 second.

 

(I'm looking at fastest laps in the race, by the way.)

[andrewf1]

I'm torn between wanting Montoya to keep that record and wanting Lewis to snatch it. My 2 favorite drivers in the past 15 years 

[sennafan24]

I'm torn between wanting Montoya to keep that record and wanting Lewis to snatch it. My 2 favorite drivers in the past 15 years 

Since when do you have good taste? 

[Nonesuch]

If it will be beaten, it'll be done by the Mercedes car. In which case their #1 driver is the safest bet.

[stewie]

One thing is for certain, if it's faster with won't seem as impressive - these cars are great but don't rank as high in the drama stakes.

[GoldenColt]

Since when do you have good taste? 

Coming from you.

[SenorSjon]

Tracks are not the same. It is much easier to go over the limit and then some. You really had to nail Parabolica in 2004 or be hospitalized. Now there is another runoff. Same for Spa this weekend. Most of the track is tarmac and kerbs are getting wider. It is easier to maintain speed through the corners now. I really wonder what a 2004 car in full qualy mode could do. I bet it would go faster than current cars.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

Rain might spoil a new record this year.

 

https://www.wundergr...0183,9.27000046

[dierome87]

Hopefully not. The 2004 cars deserve to be remembered as the fastest ever. The looks, the sound, it was awesome to watch.

 

It's a matter of time though. If it is not this weekend, it will be next year. 

[Collombin]

Hopefully not. The 2004 cars deserve to be remembered as the fastest ever. The looks, the sound, it was awesome to watch.

Meh, if you say so. I think Keke throwing his car around Silverstone was way more spectacular.

And it's not as if outright lap speed has ever been F1's drawing card. In the US they were getting within about 15 mph of that lap speed using much smaller engines. In 1926.

[Tenmantaylor]

A lot of time is gained/lost in and out of the two slow chicanes. I think there is as much to be gained with the 2017 vs 2016 cars in them during braking and traction (more mech and aero grip shortening both zones) as at any of the other corners through additional aero alone.

My prediction is it will be beaten IF the conditions are perfect for the tyres in Q3 by Hamilton. If he beats it and takes the outright pole record at the same time it will probably be the best three poles of any F1 driver in a season ever after his matching Senna with his Montreal lap, Schumi with his Spa lap. Would be a nice bit of sand in Ferrari's eye at Monza too.

Will be pole #69. What a number!

If Ferrari get pole they will have done some extra special to the car looking at how the Merc blew it away on Kemmel yesterday.

[cpbell]

I miss those cars

Widen the track on them and fit slicks and you've have the greatest F1 cars of all time.

[SenorSjon]

Rain might spoil a new record this year.

 

https://www.wundergr...0183,9.27000046

 

What rain? Any rain cloud flees when it sees F1. 

[f1paul]

It will be super close but I have a feeling that it will rain in the race or qualy, hopefully the race. I think yes and it will surely be Hamilton if it is broken.

[andrewf1]

Since when do you have good taste? 

 

 I think a lot of the people who supported Montoya went on to support Hamilton after the former left the sport. They were both new, exciting and highly-talented rookies/underdogs when they entered the sport, who went up against the established drivers and showed they wouldn't be intimidated. Montoya against Schumacher, Hamilton against Alonso. Plus they were aggressive with their overtakes, no matter who was being overtaken, and that was a joy to watch.  

[AnR]

Hard to compare a lap in 2004 with a lap on a 2017 circuit, but IMO only a Mercedes can do it.

 

They still have that engine advantage, mainly over one lap, but the Ferrari looks to make it closer than anyone expected.

[Henri Greuter]

Hopefully not. The 2004 cars deserve to be remembered as the fastest ever. The looks, the sound, it was awesome to watch.

 

 

 

 

By the same token, then the Diesel Audi of 2010 should not have bettered the distance record at Le Mans to keep that in the posession of the Porsche 917 that won in 1971.....

 

henri

[Kalmake]

It's a bit embarrassing that grooved tyres hold the record still.

 

I think with ultra-softs they could do it. But apparently ultras can handle Spa loads, but not Monza.

 

Maybe next year.

[Pingguest]

It's a bit embarrassing that grooved tyres hold the record still.

 

I think with ultra-softs they could do it. But apparently ultras can handle Spa loads, but not Monza.

 

In 2004, the tires were indeed grooved but still a part of the competition.

[Kalmake]

In 2004, the tires were indeed grooved but still a part of the competition.

I think we all know that. Lack of competition explains why Pirelli's can be so bad, but doesn't excuse it.

[Spillage]

Tentative weather forecast suggests a bit of rain next week, so the record make stand for a while yet.

[TF110]

Why? That was one of the worst eras of F1. For regulations, politics and looks.

Speak for yourself. I could say that was one of the best eras of F1. Awesome sounding V10's, fastest cars (until this year), good tires. Too bad it was a Ferrari monopoly, but this year it's the same story with only Mercedes and Ferrari able to win. I'd rather have those grooved Michelin and Bridgestone tires than the wobbly pieces of brick cheese Pirelli brings. And the looks were fine then. They had clean lines because it was before all the winglets popped up. And they didn't have fins and t-wings. Even that car's a-spec version (Williams FW26) walrus nose looks better than the micro penises we see today.

Edited by TF110, 28 August 2017 - 17:47.

[tifosi]

Depends totally on the car regulations and track layouts.

[Henri Greuter]

Speak for yourself. That was one of the best eras of F1. Awesome sounding V10's, fastest cars (until this year), good tires. Too bad it was a Ferrari monopoly, but this year it's the same story with only Mercedes and Ferrari able to win. I'd rather have those grooved Michelin and Bridgestone tires than the wobbly pieces of brick cheese Pirelli brings. And the looks were fine then. They had clean lines because it was before all the winglets popped up. And they didn't have fins and t-wings. Even that car's a-spec version (Williams FW26) walrus nose looks better than the micro penises we see today.

 

 

Funny that when you read the threads of that year you rarely read anything about those good looking cars, the awesome V10 and it being such a privilege to witness, both visual and/or audiol. Only one thing you mention in your post was posted about ever so often: The Ferrari dominance of that year.....

It was so detemining what fans thought about the season (Dare I call it `racing`? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!) that it overshadowed everything you praise about that season.....

 

But maybe that was because people/fans at that time still cared more about actual racing than the noise addiction the current fans seems to be more interested in,,,,

 

 

 

Henri

[superden]

I don't care. It wouldn't improve anything.

[Wuzak]

It will be super close but I have a feeling that it will rain in the race or qualy, hopefully the race. I think yes and it will surely be Hamilton if it is broken.

 

I wouldn't count Ferrari out.

 

As Red Bull showed a few years ago, it is possible to get pole without having the top speed. 

 

In 2011 Vettel got pole by nearly half a second. He was slowest through the speed trap. Lewis was fourth slowest in the speed trap, 5km/h faster than Vettel, and 2nd on the grid. The Ferraris were 17km/h faster in the speed trap, but were 0.6s and 0.9s off pole in 4th and 6th on the grid.

 

Ferrari seem to have excellent braking and traction. This is important at Spa as well as top speed.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

The wunderground forecast now looks better for Saturday afternoon. I'll keep watching how the weather prediction evolves in the next days.

[Alan Lewis]

Amused at how there are currently 21 "No" votes for the first question, but 26 saying "I voted no to the first question"...

 

APL

[amedeofelix]

I bet had F1 gone to the original Spa a few more times it would have an average that would be very hard to top...  As it is the sportscars were averaging rather more than the 150-odd mph lap that stood as fastest at Monza until that Williams lap above. I find that Rodriguez lapped Spa at 3:16.5, averaging 160.513 mph (258.321 km/h).  So just imagine what a modern F1 car could do there...  F1 cars were topping 200mph there before Indycars were at Indianapolis.

Edited by amedeofelix, 29 August 2017 - 14:37.

[Collombin]

When do you think they first topped 200 at Indy?

And anyway, Indy is not a particularly fast track-only 2 Indy 500s were the fastest ever Indycar races at the time they were run.

[7MGTEsup]

When do you think they first topped 200 at Indy?

 

Probably about the time they started bolting wings to the cars.

[OO7]

I bet had F1 gone to the original Spa a few more times it would have an average that would be very hard to top...  As it is the sportscars were averaging rather more than the 150-odd mph lap that stood as fastest at Monza until that Williams lap above. I find that Rodriguez lapped Spa at 3:16.5, averaging 160.513 mph (258.321 km/h).  So just imagine what a modern F1 car could do there...  F1 cars were topping 200mph there before Indycars were at Indianapolis.

The old Spa circuit with the long sweeping Stavelot would present a modern F1 with only two corners, La Source and I think Les Combes, everywhere else would be completely flat.

[Collombin]

Actually the big wings slashed the top speeds at Indy, but added about 20 mph to the cornering speeds - where it mattered.

I am pretty sure the Lotus 56s of 1968 topped 200, but I would be interested in the thoughts of a certain Novi expert (yes you Henri) regarding the top speeds of the 4WD Novi.

Edited by E.B., 29 August 2017 - 15:13.

[Jovanotti]

I bet had F1 gone to the original Spa a few more times it would have an average that would be very hard to top... As it is the sportscars were averaging rather more than the 150-odd mph lap that stood as fastest at Monza until that Williams lap above. I find that Rodriguez lapped Spa at 3:16.5, averaging 160.513 mph (258.321 km/h). So just imagine what a modern F1 car could do there... F1 cars were topping 200mph there before Indycars were at Indianapolis.

This was beyond insane, almost as fast as Montoya in 2004 in the crazy 917 on more or less normal roads. 165mph through banked Stavelot
http://www.motorspor...ry/f1/speed-spa

[7MGTEsup]

Actually the big wings slashed the top speeds at Indy, but added about 20 mph to the cornering speeds - where it mattered.

I am pretty sure the Lotus 56s of 1968 topped 200, but I would be interested in the thoughts of a certain Novi expert (yes you Henri) regarding the top speeds of the 4WD Novi.

 

What sort of corner speeds were they doing before the advent of wings? What years did they start making silly power with the turbo Offys?

[RECKLESS]

I hope someone smashes that record!

[Collombin]

What sort of corner speeds were they doing before the advent of wings? What years did they start making silly power with the turbo Offys?

a) 163 ish, versus 183 the following year (albeit sacrificing about 12mph in peak speed)

b) very silly by 1972, especially compared to the relatively conservative levels of even the 1968 winner

[Henri Greuter]

Actually the big wings slashed the top speeds at Indy, but added about 20 mph to the cornering speeds - where it mattered.

I am pretty sure the Lotus 56s of 1968 topped 200, but I would be interested in the thoughts of a certain Novi expert (yes you Henri) regarding the top speeds of the 4WD Novi.

 

(Bow) thank you E.B..... (raise)

 

Actually, I must look this up but if my memory serves me well, I doubt if the Novis ever topped 200! I recall that McElreath during a 1964 test session hit 199+ top speed but not breaking 200. But out of the top of my head I can't recall that any of them went beyond the 200 mph.

Unser and Hurtubise had higher qualifying speeds in 1965 than the drivers in 1964 but I have reasons to believe that was more because of better corner speeds than because of higher top speeds.

 

 

BTW, I don't think that the 56s topped 200. The 56s were very much underpowered compared to their opponents, in race day trim rated at about 480 to 500 hp. What the Lotus 56 was very good in was their acceleration out of the corners to thier top speeds after having reached their impressive corner speeds.

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 29 August 2017 - 18:16.

[Collombin]

Hmm, Huntington says they topped 200 but Andrew Ferguson says 197, so yes I am probably more inclined to believe the latter.

Possibly a moot point though, as even if the 56s didn't do it I believe Jim Malloy hit 214 in a spring tyre test.