46 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

I've noticed that this question has been asked about the forum and though it would be a good point for discussion.

 

So ever since the Belgian Grand Prix returned to Spa in 1983 the starting grid has been on the short straight before La Source. Prior to that, races started on the downhill run to Eau Rouge.

 

 

Over the decades of the new start/finish location, La Source has been a hot spot for first corner accidents. The short run into the hairpin doesn't provide a chance for the field to spread out much. Many are minor but recent years have seen some major crashes.

 

Here are some examples:

 

1986: 

https://www.dailymot...m/video/x19i14s Go to 3:30

 

2004: 

 

2012:

 

This year:

 

 

I think the idea was that Eau Rouge was too dangerous as a first corner back in 1983, and that was probably true until 1993. Since then the run off has been improved a lot, and today consists of mostly tarmac.

 

So, would it actually be safer to move back to the old start and finish line? Fast corners often work well as first corners. Corners like Copse and Abbey at Silverstone, or the First Turn at Suzuka don't tend to produce many first lap crashes. It seems heavy braking zones are more likely to generate crashes.

 

Or should the grid be moved to somewhere new entirely? What do you think?

 

[Maxioos]

I think i agree. While Eau Rouge can make crashes, start crashes with braking point collect far more innecent victims i think.

[Scotracer]

The driver's should drive better. 

[f1paul]

I'd leave it as it is. 

 

The "best drivers in the world" should be able to avoid big collisions.

 

There haven't been too many huge starting collisions at La Source in other motorsport series (that I know of anyway).

[sopa]

Eau Rouge is too fast and tight for the majority of cars to go through side-by-side, which you would expect given if it is supposed to be the first corner. To enter Eau Rouge the field would need to be spread out at least a little, which La Source does. I can't see, how it would end up well or better from accidents point of view.

 

I'm not sure I can propose a better place though. Starting through Blanchimont and the first braking zone being at Bus Stop chicane could be fun though.

 

Or - why not start at the Kemmel straight? Nice long straight and a proper first sequence of corners.

[RacingGreen]

The run from a standing grid down to the Eau Rouge / Raidillon section isn't really much longer and trying to go through there two or three wide off the start wouldn't be any safer.  

[Dan333SP]

I've noticed that this question has been asked about the forum and though it would be a good point for discussion.

 

So ever since the Belgian Grand Prix returned to Spa in 1983 the starting grid has been on the short straight before La Source. Prior to that, races started on the downhill run to Eau Rouge.

 

 

Over the decades of the new start/finish location, La Source has been a hot spot for first corner accidents. The short run into the hairpin doesn't provide a chance for the field to spread out much. Many are minor but recent years have seen some major crashes.

 

Here are some examples:

 

1986: 

https://www.dailymot...m/video/x19i14s Go to 3:30

 

2004: 

 

2012:

 

This year:

 

 

I think the idea was that Eau Rouge was too dangerous as a first corner back in 1983, and that was probably true until 1993. Since then the run off has been improved a lot, and today consists of mostly tarmac.

 

So, would it actually be safer to move back to the old start and finish line? Fast corners often work well as first corners. Corners like Copse and Abbey at Silverstone, or the First Turn at Suzuka don't tend to produce many first lap crashes. It seems heavy braking zones are more likely to generate crashes.

 

Or should the grid be moved to somewhere new entirely? What do you think?

 

You missed the biggest/worst start line incident at Spa since the grid was moved, 1998-

 

 

Yea, it happened on the exit of La Source, but it could still be argued this was a direct result of the short run up to a very tight hairpin with (at that time) limited runoff. 

[midgrid]

Oddly enough, in 1983 the finish line was still in its former position before Eau Rouge.

For WSC races during this period (and I presume other categories as well) the starting-point also remained here.

[Fastcake]

It's a good argument. La Source is a tight corner and is not ideal to contain the typical first crunch. And the run from the starting grid is very short, which means cars accelerating from the back are rapidly encountering the concertina effect of cars braking.

 

But then you have the problem of moving the first braking point to Les Combes, after sending the whole pack through Eau Rouge side-by-side, and I don't think that would be a good idea. Eau Rouge is safer nowadays, but I'm not sure it's designed for a large number of cars like that. Multi-car crashes are most common from the start until the first proper corner, and I wouldn't want to see a big crash like that in Eau Rouge.

[maximilian]

****, take away the starting crash, and there's NOTHING left worth watching in this race.

[PayasYouRace]

Oddly enough, in 1983 the finish line was still in its former position before Eau Rouge.
For WSC races during this period (and I presume other categories as well) the starting-point also remained here.

Did WSC use rolling starts in those days?

[dgsg]

Tape note to each steering wheel; "You don't win the race in the 1st corner".

[Slowersofterdumber]

It should be halfway down Kemmel. Pole isn't the best place to be in this track and that's nonsense.

Edited by Slowersofterdumber, 27 August 2018 - 21:03.

[sportyskells]

I seen a couple of flips in other motorsport series at the start of races at Spa

Edited by sportyskells, 27 August 2018 - 21:16.

[Nonesuch]

This occurred to me whilst reading the Halo thread, but I'm not surprised it was (apparently) also a topic elsewhere.

 

The only other place you could realistically put a starting grid  is on the Kemmel straight, making Les Combes a Barcelona-esque Turn One. But I think changing the whole pit&start complex would be overdoing it.

 

There is only one good solution to this, and that's to get the drivers to shape up. La Source is a very unique challenge at the start, with some inherent risks; F1 drivers should recognize the situation at Spa on lap one is a bit tricky, and just do better.

Edited by Nonesuch, 27 August 2018 - 21:17.

[JHSingo]

I think i agree. While Eau Rouge can make crashes, start crashes with braking point collect far more innecent victims i think.

 

So how many others do you start changing then? There's plenty on the calendar that have that - and the likes of Monza and Albert Park have seen just as many/if not more first corner crashes than Spa. 

 

So I'd say leave it where it is. As bad as it sounds - at least that crash gave us something to talk about out of what was frankly a rather dull race otherwise. 

Edited by JHSingo, 27 August 2018 - 21:30.

[ANF]

I'm surprised every time I see an incident-free start at Spa, in any category of racing. So should it be moved? Maybe. But where? I don't know. At least the current piece of tarmac is flat. And would you even want to move the starting grid away from the pits?

[PayasYouRace]

There have been times that the starting grid has been away from the pits in the past. Anderstorp was like that.

 

Of course, Spa already has another starting grid and pitlane, which is why I asked if a change could be made. The infrastructure is already there.

[noikeee]

I don't understand why starting into La Source is any particularly dangerous, sure it's a short run to a hard braking zone, but that also means they approach it at low speeds. I don't think it's as bad as say, Monza turn 1 or Monaco turn 1?

 

I think starting into Eau Rouge would be much more dangerous, the odds of a tangle would be much lower but imagine that a tangle DOES happen ahead of the entire pack... dear lord. Also this would create a monster traffic jam and slipstreaming havoc into the Kemmel straight and Les Combes, see what happened with Vettel-Hamilton-Perez-Ocon and now multiply it throughout the entire field as it doesn't get the chance to get any spread out. You'd be looking at regular massive shunts at the end of that straight IMO.

[Ellios]

Drivers should drive better, there's 44 laps to overtake. Maybe make it mandatory to check their braking points once grid positions are decided. Best drivers in the world! 

[Slowersofterdumber]

This occurred to me whilst reading the Halo thread, but I'm not surprised it was (apparently) also a topic elsewhere.

The only other place you could realistically put a starting grid is on the Kemmel straight, making Les Combes a Barcelona-esque Turn One. But I think changing the whole pit&start complex would be overdoing it.

There is only one good solution to this, and that's to get the drivers to shape up. La Source is a very unique challenge at the start, with some inherent risks; F1 drivers should recognize the situation at Spa on lap one is a bit tricky, and just do better.

Honest but offtopic question: do the pits have to be on the start finish straight? Alternatively, can't they just start up there and complete 43'75 laps? The start and finish aren't the same line anyway.

[JonnyJ]

Start them on the hill, make them install a handbrake, let's see if these guys can *really* drive

[EthanM]

Honest but offtopic question: do the pits have to be on the start finish straight? Alternatively, can't they just start up there and complete 43'75 laps? The start and finish aren't the same line anyway.

 

have you not seen the amount of personnel and equipment on the grid before the start  of the race ? what are they supposed to do, hike a couple of miles back to the pits lugging spare tyres and car warmers?

[HP]

Let's take away all driver challenges from F1 shall we? I don't think moving solves anything, except making F1 drivers looking better than they are.

 

Of course Alonso would have loved the move before 2012, as he most likely would have won a championship more without Spa and Grosjean. Still, F1 shouldn't hand out things on a platter. Sometimes I wonder if making it more difficult in F1 would lead to some drivers being replaced or retired much earlier. And hopefully some more competent drivers being found.

Edited by HP, 28 August 2018 - 00:34.

[EthanM]

What's hilarious is the people that want grids moved around 'for safety' scream at the top of their lungs about boring Tilkedromes and their acres of runoffs

 

I remain convinced the F1 fan is a fickle, confused and impulsive beast

[Atreiu]

Nops.

[Beri]

I sincerely think it shouldn't even be a discussion. The runoff at Eau Rouge and at Radillion are very limited once it comes down to having a safe run through it 2 or maybe 3 cars wide. You can hardly blame the corner La Source to be the problem. All the times we've seen crashes there, it was due to driver error. Could happen anywhere. Besides, overreacting much? The 2004 La Source hairpin, the one the OP shows, has been altered. It isn't as narrow anymore. So any comparison is useless. So since the new La Source, we've had 2 starting incidents, aside from broken wings and such, how many does the Variante del Rettifilio had had since it's hideous revamp? Must be twice as many. We should discuss that corner, not this one.

Edited by Beri, 28 August 2018 - 05:10.

[djparky]

Why don't we just start them at 5 second intervals so there can be no risk of an accident at all???

No they don't need to move the start line, if the start is too dangerous for you I suggest you tune in on lap 2 when the procession starts

[Lights]

The short run into the hairpin doesn't provide a chance for the field to spread out much. 

 

Is that actually true? Do longer start runs spread out the field? I don't get the logic in that. Don't they simply bunch everyone together even more because everybody is slipstreaming each other for a longer time? 

[Ev0d3vil]

No, Drivers should watch their braking points.

[absinthedude]

Nope. If the 20 or so best drivers in the world cannot manage the start at Spa....perhaps they need to drive better...

[SophieB]

So how many others do you start changing then? There's plenty on the calendar that have that - and the likes of Monza and Albert Park have seen just as many/if not more first corner crashes than Spa. 
 
So I'd say leave it where it is. As bad as it sounds - at least that crash gave us something to talk about out of what was frankly a rather dull race otherwise. 

It does indeed sound really bad.

[SophieB]

I also do not think races are enhanced by some berk at the back causing huge pile ups at the start so I think it’s worth the powers that be looking at the pros and cons of start line placement where appropriate.

[JeePee]

What the hell guys.

 

Spa is totally pussyfied. Huge tarmac run offs everywhere. Eau Rouge is no challenge anymore. Pouhon is just like any other corner. Blanchimont? Just overtake around the outside run off and get an award. Go completely off the track at Pif Paf, get saved by the tarmac, drive pole 2 minutes later.

 

The track has completely lost its 'seperate man from boys' status, and now people want to move the whole freaking pit complex because one driver forget to use his brakes?

 

Go play with barbies instead of watching this sport please.

Edited by JeePee, 28 August 2018 - 07:03.

[A3]

So moving the start line means moving the pit area too, because the team members won't get back in time to the regular pit. Have you guys ever walked on the track and noticed it's elevation changes?

Why not have rolling starts?

Anyone?



Hello?

[LuckyStrike1]

I don't really see why. 

The current start grid isn't particurarly dangerous or bad. If the drivers just braked in time, all is good. 

Although a downhill start with side by side racing in multiple rows into Eau Rouge and up Radillon might sound an exciting spectacle I don't think it's the right kind of exciting we want. 

So no. 

[AlexPrime]

A track has grass instead of tarmac runoff, which means that a mistake of Seb is punished heavily with retirement - great, proper racing track!
A track causes Alonso to retire and 2012 and Kimi this year - let's change it 

I love this forum!

And no, you should not change Spa anymore. Enough damage was done.

[JeePee]

Starting in the run down to Eau Rouge won't even be exciting. Half the field would just take the huge run off on the inside at the top of the hill. And no one will get penalised 'because start'.

 

I really don't understand this.

 

La Source is one of the most exciting 1st corners on the calender, and people want it gone?

 

Maybe if you're an Alonso fan...

Edited by JeePee, 28 August 2018 - 07:31.

[Beri]

What the hell guys.

Spa is totally pussyfied. Huge tarmac run offs everywhere. Eau Rouge is no challenge anymore. Pouhon is just like any other corner. Blanchimont? Just overtake around the outside run off and get an award. Go completely off the track at Pif Paf, get saved by the tarmac, drive pole 2 minutes later.

The track has completely lost its 'seperate man from boys' status, and now people want to move the whole freaking pit complex because one driver forget to use his brakes?

Go play with barbies instead of watching this sport please.

Wait.. what!? Is actually someone still calling this a sport? It's entertainment. It's a show. It's not a sport anymore. Not even close. The only "sporty" element would be that drivers are required to be top athletes. But achieving this takes place behind closed curtains. So there isn't any sport to be seen in Formula One anymore.

Besides all that, moving your starting line down towards Eau Rouge would give you a problem on Kemmel and in Les Combes as well. Because drivers will lift off in Eau Rouge more than they do now to prevent cutting Radillion or simply chicken out whilst going three wide. Something you don't see when they come down from La Source when the pack is more stretched out compared to when there would be a starting line at Eau Rouge. This, in turn, poses problems on the straight because of the speed differences. Then having a fast chicane at the end won't help either. More massacre guaranteed compared the current situation.

[Nonesuch]

There's a lot of projection and assumptions going on about why some people might feel the start could perhaps be moved. Maybe some psychologists will one day dub this The Alonso Effect, who knows.

 

I don't understand why starting into La Source is any particularly dangerous, sure it's a short run to a hard braking zone, but that also means they approach it at low speeds. I don't think it's as bad as say, Monza turn 1 or Monaco turn 1?

 

It's just six seconds from the start to the apex at Monaco, the track is not wide enough for a lot of moves so people are generally (!) more cautious, and the first corner has an angle of only about 58 degrees. It's not a massive braking zone, and more crucially, it doesn't quite point the cars at the front perpendicular to those further down the field.

 

Monza is also risky, but because it's about fourteen seconds to the first corner the cars aren't as bunched up. Monza's first corner is also immediately followed by the second part of the chicane. Speeds must come down massively and there's no need to get a 'good exit out of Turn One'. Still, there have indeed also been some serious incidents at Monza.

 

What makes La Source special is that unlike Monaco, the track from the start to La Source is very wide and there's more racing in those 8 or so seconds before the corner. Also: La Source is both the last corner before Les Combes, making a good exit very important, and it turns the cars almost 150 degrees for the run down into the valley. That's a very sharp corner. It's thus not a big surprise that cars climbing over other cars from the side has happened multiple times at La Source in recent years.

 

[sopa]

If a driver at the back of the field locked up like Hulkenberg did, he would crash into drivers in front of him at the start of most circuits.

[MikeV1987]

They would be even more bunched up going into Eau Rouge, it would be just a fatality waiting to happen imo. At least from La Source they get in somewhat of a formation.

Edited by MikeV1987, 28 August 2018 - 08:27.

[zanquis]

To me there are 2 options: Either leave it, OR move it to the Kemmel Straight AFTER Eau Rouge, that corner is way too dangerous to go in with such wide massive high downforce cars.. BUT it would make the start a copy of tracks like Barcelona, as Les combes and turn 1 and 2 are very similar, turn 3 is just much longer but leading into a corner not much different from Bruxelles. 

To me the start of Spa is one of the things that makes it one of the better races. Yes accidents happen sometimes, rarely very bad one's due to the low speed of the corner, but it also provides more than other tracks to make up ground as the corner is very tricky to get a good safe and fast line at that start. 

[zanquis]

Wait.. what!? Is actually someone still calling this a sport? It's entertainment. It's a show. It's not a sport anymore. Not even close. The only "sporty" element would be that drivers are required to be top athletes. But achieving this takes place behind closed curtains. So there isn't any sport to be seen in Formula One anymore.

Besides all that, moving your starting line down towards Eau Rouge would give you a problem on Kemmel and in Les Combes as well. Because drivers will lift off in Eau Rouge more than they do now to prevent cutting Radillion or simply chicken out whilst going three wide. Something you don't see when they come down from La Source when the pack is more stretched out compared to when there would be a starting line at Eau Rouge. This, in turn, poses problems on the straight because of the speed differences. Then having a fast chicane at the end won't help either. More massacre guaranteed compared the current situation.

 

 

You can say what you want but any activity that can make a person lose that much weight (mostly water though) in such a short time without going to the bathroom or amputating a body part is a sport. Yes it needs to be entertainment but the people doing it are still athletes and sporters. The results are not fixed to make it into a show like Wrestling.

[BuddyHolly]

Nope.  If they are going to change anything about Spa, put the bus stop chicane back to how it was before it was ruined.

[Eff1]

No need to change the starting grid. There are plenty of years where everyone navigated S1 at the start without there being any accident.

[Tsarwash]

Tape note to each steering wheel; "You don't win the race in the 1st corner".

Well in F1 you do sometimes. That is the problem.