424 replies to this topic

[krapmeister]

Geez it's farkin' HUGE - it makes the BMW M8 GT look tiny...

[statman]

looks like Verstappen's former girlfriend Mikaela is the test/development driver?

 

 

[Ben1445]

Extreme E ODYSSEY 21 technical specifications
Dimensions 4,401mm x 2,300mm x 1,864mm
Ride height 450mm
Wheelbase 3,001mm
Weight 1,650kg
Power 400kw (536bhp)
Torque 679 lb ft
Top speed 124mph
Acceleration 0-62mph: 4.5sec
Gradient capability 40° (80% slope) to 53° (130% slope est. dependant on surface)
Construction Tubular frame comprising Niobium reinforced steel alloy
Suspension and dampers Double wishbone with three-way adjustable mono-damper. Hydraulic bump and rebound stop
Suspension travel 385mm
Braking Six-piston Alcon caliper; iron disk and pads
Steering Electrical power steering system

 

(

[Ben1445]

looks like Verstappen's former girlfriend Mikaela is the test/development driver?

Indeed, Mikaela Åhlin-Kottulinsky. I am looking forward to getting to know her for her and not as Verstappen's former girlfriend 

[Vielleicht]

ABT Sportsline have now signed up for Extreme E, alonside other entrant Venturi. Both of these teams were among the very first to enter Formula E.

 

[HistoryFan]

Andretti also likely to join. And Jean-Eric Vergne wanted to enter an own team (perhaps with Techeetah?). Bentley and PSA among the manufactures showing interest.

[Vielleicht]

Would PSA likely be a Peugeot, like the Dakar program, or another member of the group?

Bentley sounds interesting though...

[Vielleicht]

Well with HWA's Formula E program becoming the Mercedes EQ Formula E team, they've announced they're going for Extreme E.

 

Venturi, Abt and HWA thus far.

 

Agag and his team are very good at tapping into smaller independants to get these things off the gorund. FE would be nowhere without them and perhaps this will be the same. These teams can probably either  stay as indpendants or their affiliations will see manufacturer bodykits/powertrains come in at a later date, depednign on how things play out. Abt's relationship to Audi and HWA's to Mercedes is interesting - both Audi and Merc are launching electric SUVs at the moment.

 

Honestly? This is going a little smoother than I was expecting so far. But then this is Alejandro Agag we're talking about. 

[Vielleicht]

Sebastien Ogier joins Extreme E as series ambassador and advisor
https://www.extreme-...-Extreme-E.html

[HistoryFan]

would be nice to see him as a driver.

[kumo7]

All Alonsoon the race? Go head to head with Loeb? 

[Ben1445]

If Alonso is starting Dakar 2020 prep and fellow Spaniard Agag is behind Extreme E which starts in 2021.... have the chances Alonso being on that ship just increased a little bit?

[Vielleicht]

If Alonso is starting Dakar 2020 prep and fellow Spaniard Agag is behind Extreme E which starts in 2021.... have the chances Alonso being on that ship just increased a little bit?

Good point that. I think it’s become a less outlandish idea definitely, but the man and his future is a mystery unto himself it seems.

[ElectricBoogie]

Seems overweight and underpowered for short stages. In good FE fashion. 
ooks super cool, but I fear it's also being giving privileges by FIA to make sure it's not too quick.

For short stages, an Ariel Nomad type car could be kept under 1000 kg with at least the same power as ExtremeE. 

[Vielleicht]

Seems overweight and underpowered for short stages. In good FE fashion. 
\looks super cool, but I fear it's also being giving privileges by FIA to make sure it's not too quick.

For short stages, an Ariel Nomad type car could be kept under 1000 kg with at least the same power as ExtremeE. 

I'm not entirely sure how involved the FIA are at this point. There's certainly no mention of Extreme E on the FIA website or the FIA on Extreme E's.

 

In fact, looking back at Agag's comments at the Autosport Show in January, he said:

 

"When asked by Autosport if - like FE - the new championship would be officially backed by the FIA, Agag said "We've been talking to the FIA a lot".

 

Jean Todt really doesn't get it yet - I'm trying to convince him," he continued.

 

"At the minimum, we will be an international series, so we will be regulated by one federation - and then from there, we're looking with them [at] ways to be more FIA."

 

(https://www.autospor...-offroad-series)

I haven't seen anything myself to suggest that that position has changed yet.

[ElectricBoogie]

I'm not entirely sure how involved the FIA are at this point. There's certainly no mention of Extreme E on the FIA website or the FIA on Extreme E's.

 

In fact, looking back at Agag's comments at the Autosport Show in January, he said:

 

I haven't seen anything myself to suggest that that position has changed yet.

Good stuff, thanks.

I may be erring on the side of suspicion, but it seems Agag gets legacy ccar brands to support FE by taking a lot of attention and focusing it on - by traditional motor sport standards - absolutely unattractive cars.
The money available to FE seems quite substatial, yet cars are about as low tech and blunt edge as they can get away with. 
Since BEV's are (at present) at a performance disadvantage and as road relevant for the future of automotive as anything ever was, you'd expect a serious to emerge with room for brands to develop. Inverters and motors are about the jist of it now? Batteries are what needs progress. Swappable for endurance use/racing, lighter for more range. Full recyclability.
With any decent budget, FE and EE would be much faster machines. FE could (should, for its driver lineup) be at F2 speed levels. And the tech is there. But not the FIA vision. And Agag seems to have created a monopoly for himself to exploit this situation in the automotive industry. No brand can transition to BEV overnight.  And even over 1-2 decades will be extremely painful. How to make money on maintenance? How to phase out all product lines at the same time?

[Vielleicht]

Lots of thoughts there.

 

If you consider the 'landscape' of motorsport in which Formula E was started and then developed, I think it helps form some idea of how it has become what it is. Throughout the first season, much of the future look of the sereis was still up in the air. Having multple chassis suppliers was still on the table, battery development was supposed to open from S3-4 I think and manufacturers were really only taking associative roles with teams rather than offering full works backing. Nissan's ill fated LMP1 program happened in this first season to a background of cost escalation concerns in LMP1-H, which in hindsight I think was an important moment. It was only just before the start of Season 2 that the VW diesel emissions scandal hit and set of a crucial chain of events. A little over a year later, Audi pulled their diesel cars out of the WEC for an S4 works FE entry and Jaguar (who had placed a lot of faith in diesel) started a strategic realignement away from diesel and towards EV and became the first full works entry to FE in S3.

 

So at this point we have the two key factors of concern over spending wars in motorsort and car manufacturers contemplating the huge costs of the complicated and risky transitions to producung BEVs, which is starting look more and more likely. This is the world in which the Gen2 era of FE was planned. Significantly improving the pace up to somethign more like F2 levels was traded for getting rid of the car swap (something the manufacturers were not compfortable to be seen promoting). Any plans for open chassis and battery developemnt were put on ice for perhaps two reasons - to keep costs of entry low and to stop early-adopters from getting a head start and becoming too dominant (like Mercedes in F1).

 

'Walk before you can run' was the name of the game. I persoanlly don't think FE are even at the running phase yet. Maybe jogging at a push.

 

Extreme E is a very different concept to FE. If I've understood it right, there's going to be a lot more focus on the personalities, their experiences, the environments they race in. As of the official launch, races were put forward as only a part of a a bigger, artsy 'docu-sport' - which might explain why the FIA hasn't jumped to be involved.

[Vielleicht]

We have the first location announcement

Extreme E confirms Greenland as Arctic race stage (Extreme E)
https://www.extreme-...race-stage.html

 

Agag: “Together with Greenland’s government, backed by climate experts from Cambridge University, we will create a sensational sporting competition with the most incredible natural backdrop, which, crucially, will double as a catalyst for positive awareness, education, and scientific research, aiming to leave only positive impact behind when we depart.”

 

 

 

 

Melting Greenland to host first electric racing series (Reuters)
https://www.reuters....s-idUSKCN1VJ2UI

 

In a 10-part ‘docu-sport’ package, Extreme E will showcase electric SUVs in head-to-head races in areas suffering from environmental damage or under threat. Fox Sports has signed a multi-year broadcast deal. There will be no spectators.

 
 

[Ben1445]

A location already! How does this man do it...? 
 
Good to read the part of that official announcement from Peter Wadhams (says he's from the Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University, a world leading authority on ice melt and led 55 Arctic expeditions). Loads of people after the plans this series came to light quite rightly had concerns about going to extreme environments like this and how damaging them would be very unsavoury indeed. 
 

Peter adds: “The site we have found here in Greenland is ideal. It is a sandbar, made of rockflour that has naturally been transported off the glacier over years. Racing over that area won’t have a harmful effect on the environment, but the potential awareness and education that could be generated through the powerful sporting platform will be enormous.”

I am encouraged that it looks like they are indeed consulting experts and also that said experts see the value in the idea in terms of awareness and education.

[BRG]

I take it that Greta Thunberg will be driving?

[Lee Nicolle]

Quite simple, FE is boring and choreographed in kart tracks. And the sedans are far worse!

So wide open spaces? I suspect they will look quite slow and be very unreliable. I have driven off roaders in testing and ridden with a top driver and they are very violent. And I have no reason to ever want to race them though the experience was interesting

Not the scenario for comaritively delicate vehicles.

I have been told by a Californian contact that Teslas simply stop on rough made desert roads as the parts get shook about. Bitumen road vehicles only.

[loki]

No wonder they didn’t want to sell us Greenland.  They want to keep all that eco racing for themselves...

 

There have been a couple recent EV attempts at big off road races over the last 5-6 years.  One has finished the Baja 500, 1000 others have raced in other races. Those builds are far from delicate.The reason a Tesla doesn’t work well off road is because it’s not an off road car.  I know, shocker, right?...

 

Opps, it was last years 1000, not 500.  My bad...

Edited by loki, 01 September 2019 - 04:05.

[Ben1445]

Quite simple, FE is boring and choreographed in kart tracks. And the sedans are far worse!

So wide open spaces? I suspect they will look quite slow and be very unreliable. I have driven off roaders in testing and ridden with a top driver and they are very violent. And I have no reason to ever want to race them though the experience was interesting

Not the scenario for comaritively delicate vehicles.

I have been told by a Californian contact that Teslas simply stop on rough made desert roads as the parts get shook about. Bitumen road vehicles only.

Honestly I always get confused by this constant pedalling (from various people) of the idea that FE is boring. Because FE races have been the opposite of what would be typically described as 'boring' races way more often than not in the last few years. 

 

I could understand if people were watching it and saying 'I am not interested by it' or even simply 'I just don't like it'. I might then be curious as to why and maybe they can give a reasonable explanation or maybe they can't put it into words. Either outcome of that would be fine. But to flat out say that it is boring...implying that it is tedious, dull or even monotonous... to be honest it just makes me think that said person has never really sat down to watch it with an open mind. 

 

 

Melting Greenland to host first electric racing series (Reuters)

https://www.reuters....s-idUSKCN1VJ2UI

 
"In a 10-part ‘docu-sport’ package, Extreme E will showcase electric SUVs in head-to-head races in areas suffering from environmental damage or under threat. Fox Sports has signed a multi-year broadcast deal. There will be no spectators."

 

Having a broadcast deal in place already is a big deal, in my opinion. 

[Vielleicht]

Having a broadcast deal in place already is a big deal, in my opinion. 

Yes, I thought that as well. Multi-year too.

[Vielleicht]

Driver Program launched by Extreme E
https://www.extreme-...-Programme.html
 
Included in the list as expressing interest are:
- Sébastian Ogier
- Andreas Bakkerud
- Kevin and Timmy Hansen
- Timo Scheider
- Jamie Chadwick
- Katherine Legge
- Mikaela Åhlin-Kottulinsky
- Lucas di Grassi
- Andre Lotterer
- Sacha Prost

[f1paul]

If those drivers were the actual line-up.     

[f1paul]

The Hansen Brothers and Andreas Bakekerud are the three best drivers in World RX at the moment, top three in the championship.

 

Then you have the second greatest Sebastien to race in WRC, Scheider is a double DTM champion, Chadwick is the current W-Series champion, Legge has gone some great things in IMSA, Di Grassi is one of the best in Formula E and Andre Lotterer is a WEC and Le Mans winner.

[f1paul]

'Interest' is nothing though, lets just wait and see. 

[PiperPa42]

I’d love to see a Solberg in the mix too. Is Petter all done with racing?

Edited by PiperPa42, 12 September 2019 - 14:23.

[Vielleicht]

'Interest' is nothing though, lets just wait and see.

Formula E's driver program ran in a similar way back in 2013/14 and Di Grassi helped come up with it. It worked pretty well so it makes sense to see them repeat that model.

 

The idea is to formulate a list of top quality drivers who expressed interest. That then a) boosts the credentials of the series to sell to investors/broadcasters/sponsors and b) gives a list of drivers for the teams to start apporaching about a drive. I do believe that teams in FE's first season who hired drivers from the Development Program list were offered a discount on the entry fees to further encuorage their appointments. I wouldn't be suprised if that were the case again.

Edited by Vielleicht, 12 September 2019 - 10:59.

[ElectricBoogie]

I wish the climate hype would stay out of racing. Now a ton of goods and eople is shipped to remote placed...to race against climate change? What about NOT racing?

[Vielleicht]

I wish the climate hype would stay out of racing. Now a ton of goods and eople is shipped to remote placed...to race against climate change? What about NOT racing?

 

I can give you Agag's view on that from an interview he did for GQ about Extreme E:
 

“You can’t just stay in bed, because it’s zero emissions. To aid climate change we have to get out and make a difference”. In other words, you have to spend some CO2 to reduce CO2. Extreme E hopes to challenge opinions and drive sustainability, just as Formula E has done, and you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
 
https://www.gq-magaz...eme-e-dangerous

[Vielleicht]

Just a few points of the thinking behind this:

 

- They will race in areas already damaged by climate change under strict advice from expert environemtalists

- They will use the former Royal Mail shiip the St Helena as a floating paddock to take the vehicles to the races by sea, not by air freight.

- The St Helena is being refitted to be as eco friendly as it can be (suppodely everything from sustaianble materials in the carpets and curtains to kite-power systems to reduce fuel burn) as a kind of 'floating laborotory;

- The 'Docu-sport' aspect is supposed to cover these efforts to reduce the carbon impact of the seires to act as an example of what can be done

- Packaging up information on climate change and action to adress it within a extreme sport racing series is, as director Fisher Stephens put it, because the only people who go and see climate documentaries are people who already give a damn about the enviroment and so you're preaching to the converted. It's why he also did the upcoming FE documentary And We Go Green.

 

That's no comment on the rights or wrongs. Just a little of what we have heard from the Extreme E team so far.

[statman]

this is getting more ridiculous by the day, racing on land that's already damaged by climate change? Oh ok.    Under supervision from environmentalist? 

[Ben1445]

this is getting more ridiculous by the day, racing on land that's already damaged by climate change? Oh ok.    Under supervision from environmentalist? 

What's mad about that? We've known this for months anyway and when the idea for the series first came to light there was HUGE and I will say completely justified criticism over the possibility of racing in pristine environments. Which I think we can all agree would have been a terrible idea. 

 

Getting advice from environmentalists about which locations are not going to cause any harm to delicate or pristine ecosystems is not ridiculous at all. 

[Ben1445]

Driver Program launched by Extreme E
https://www.extreme-...-Programme.html
 
Included in the list as expressing interest are:
- Sébastian Ogier
- Andreas Bakkerud
- Kevin and Timmy Hansen
- Timo Scheider
- Jamie Chadwick
- Katherine Legge
- Mikaela Åhlin-Kottulinsky
- Lucas di Grassi
- Andre Lotterer
- Sacha Prost

That's a really good list. Hopefully a good number of these drivers come through - I'd especially like to see the Rallycross names. 

[statman]

What's mad about that? We've known this for months anyway and when the idea for the series first came to light there was HUGE and I will say completely justified criticism over the possibility of racing in pristine environments. Which I think we can all agree would have been a terrible idea. 

 

Getting advice from environmentalists about which locations are not going to cause any harm to delicate or pristine ecosystems is not ridiculous at all. 

 

regular tracks have to go through all kinds of rules and regulations before even a shovel can get into the ground to expand or even refurbish existing parts, because it could have an effect on the environment.

 

it's ridiculous because this is giving off the vibe of "ah **** it, it's damaged anyway so now we can race there". What's next? A dirt race in the Amazon because the fires have leveled it in parts anyway? 

 

Look I kinda liked the idea when I first heard it, Extreme E. Let's say a Dakar in E-form. But this is getting ridiculous, in my view.

[Ben1445]

regular tracks have to go through all kinds of rules and regulations before even a shovel can get into the ground to expand or even refurbish existing parts, because it could have an effect on the environment.
 
it's ridiculous because this is giving off the vibe of "ah **** it, it's damaged anyway so now we can race there". What's next? A dirt race in the Amazon because the fires have leveled it in parts anyway? 
 
Look I kinda liked the idea when I first heard it, Extreme E. Let's say a Dakar in E-form. But this is getting ridiculous, in my view.

 
The Dakar isn't in any way some beacon of responsible racing. So if we're going to be comparing the two, let's at least have our eyes open about it:
 

"Chilean government studies seen by the Guardian confirm the damage done to geoglyphs, protected sites, burial grounds and tracks on the Inca trail during previous races, but such is the race's importance for tourism that it has once again been given the green light."

"...conservationists have posted images purportedly showing that cars and motorbikes have driven across archaeological digs, leaving tyre tracks over ancient symbols, and scattered and smashing ceramic fragments."
 
"It lists damage to geoglyphs, villages, cemeteries, middens and lithic or stone-tool workshops in the regions of Tarapacá, Antofagasta, Atacama and Coquimbo. Among the worst-affected archeological archaeological sites was a former fishing village in Coquimbo that may date from 2000BC, in which 50% of the area was degraded."
 
(https://www.theguard...vironmentalists)

 
Dakar causes damage and wants to sweep it under the carpet and go ahead regardless. Extreme E wants to be aware of any damage, minimise it in any way it can and put their money where their mouth is by making it a central theme of the series with in-depth documentary-style coverage of those efforts. 

 

I know which approach I have more respect for. 

[ElectricBoogie]

I get a terrible potical vibe from all this. Anyways, Agag is a politician. Got FE a BEV singleseater monopoly from FIA for HOW long?
FE cars are much slower than they need to be and anyways don't challenge mainstream racing at all. Only from from the same vast driver pool.

[Vielleicht]

From a few days ago but...

 

They have a deal in place to have Extreme E reach IMAX cinemas

https://www.extreme-...ie-project.html

 

Unclear if it's separate one off production from the TV/Streaming version or just another viewing option for each race.

Edited by Vielleicht, 12 September 2019 - 13:03.

[Calorus]

Yeah, right. 

 

I'll boldly make the prediction that they'll never be racing in those locations in a million years. 

 

If F1 still can't organise a race in downtown New York, what chances has Agag got in organising a race at any of those places? I'd say there's a heck of a lot of problems involved, and I bet an organisation like Greenpeace would play hell up if they ever got whiff of this. 

 

Politics will always be a bigger barrier than logistics.

[BRG]

 The Dakar isn't in any way some beacon of responsible racing. So if we're going to be comparing the two, let's at least have our eyes open about it:
 

Dakar causes damage and wants to sweep it under the carpet and go ahead regardless. Extreme E wants to be aware of any damage, minimise it in any way it can and put their money where their mouth is by making it a central theme of the series with in-depth documentary-style coverage of those efforts. 

 

I know which approach I have more respect for. 

I am not going to defend the Dakar as I long felt it was a bit obscene when it was in Africa racing through poverty stricken villages in multi million pound cars.

 

This will be an issue for Extreme E.  Firstly, they can only go to coastal sites as the RMS Saint Helena  can't go inland (not sure how far up the Amazon it might be able to go) or they will be criticised if they then truck all their kit up-country.  Then they will need to survey their route extremely carefully, checking every inch with archaeologists and environmental advisers to ensure that they don't damage anything or squish any Great Crested Newts.  The route will have to be defined in such a way that no-one can accidentally stray off it.  

 

The trouble with setting yourselves up as virtuous environmental saviours is that if you fail to be perfect, you will get slaughtered by your own side, let along the rest of us.  Rather them than me.

[Vielleicht]

I am not going to defend the Dakar as I long felt it was a bit obscene when it was in Africa racing through poverty stricken villages in multi million pound cars.

 

This will be an issue for Extreme E.  Firstly, they can only go to coastal sites as the RMS Saint Helena  can't go inland (not sure how far up the Amazon it might be able to go) or they will be criticised if they then truck all their kit up-country.  Then they will need to survey their route extremely carefully, checking every inch with archaeologists and environmental advisers to ensure that they don't damage anything or squish any Great Crested Newts.  The route will have to be defined in such a way that no-one can accidentally stray off it.  

 

The trouble with setting yourselves up as virtuous environmental saviours is that if you fail to be perfect, you will get slaughtered by your own side, let along the rest of us.  Rather them than me.

Yes, and it appears they do know this. If anything though, making this minimal environmental damage (and they keep saying net positive) ethos a central and visible theme of the series rather than just a background operational box-tick makes that much easier to comunicate with the audience. They've made the effort to have the approval of enviromentalists and to my mind do make that clear in their press releases and I assume they will do in their broadcasts too. And they shoud do, because the truth is we do need to call them out if they are not living up to the levels of responsibilty that they are seeking to meet.

 

But at the same time, to me, that doesn't mean people should give a free pass to things like the Dakar or any other racing series juts because it has no stated environmental cause. Which is basically what seems to happen in this kind if situation be it racing or something else entirely.

[f1paul]

I’d love to see a Solberg in the mix too. Is Petter all done with racing?

Petter's currently on his farewell tour and I think he is done with motor racing. It looks like he wants to help his son Oliver progress into WRC and maybe rallycross though.

 

Petter retired from World RX last year and has been doing lots of one-off motorsport events this year. I don't think he'll compete in a full season in anything unfortunately.

Edited by f1paul, 12 September 2019 - 19:29.

[Vielleicht]

[BalanceUT]

Haters gonna hate. Meanwhile, we will enjoy these emerging technologies meeting emerging racing series. We will enjoy the future, not grouse about it. 

Edited by BalanceUT, 12 September 2019 - 22:59.

[BobbyRicky]

Quite simple, FE is boring and choreographed in kart tracks. And the sedans are far worse!

So wide open spaces? I suspect they will look quite slow and be very unreliable. I have driven off roaders in testing and ridden with a top driver and they are very violent. And I have no reason to ever want to race them though the experience was interesting

Not the scenario for comaritively delicate vehicles.

I have been told by a Californian contact that Teslas simply stop on rough made desert roads as the parts get shook about. Bitumen road vehicles only.

 

I have been told by my M5-owning friend that he cant drive it fast on bumpy roads because it isnt designed for that.

Damn, you anti-EV Hemulens are really trying everything to discredit electric-vehicles these days, arent you?

[Vielleicht]

Continually in disbelief over the names this thing is pulling in.

 

Today's news:

 

As rumoured a while back, Jean Eric Vergne backed Veloce Racing (sister team to Veloce Esports) has become team number four. And for some reason* they they have Adrian Newey as 'lead visionary'.

https://www.extreme-...team-entry.html

 

_{*actually it's most likely because his son, Harrison, is involved in the team's management.}

[Ben1445]

Continually in disbelief over the names this thing is pulling in.

I'm convinced Agag is a magician. 

[HistoryFan]

such teams would be awesome to have in Formula 1!