681 replies to this topic

[statman]

Warrants a topic.

 

Overview of incidents and how it all impacted his WDC runs:

 

Vettel's errors have cost him 125 points against Hamilton

 

Quite something. Is Vettel too much under pressure? Is he just not good enough when going head-to-head instead of having a dominant car?

Edited by statman, 04 September 2018 - 17:04.

[Mat13]

That link is from the Mail. I hope you've checked their maths...

[f1paul]

I do wonder if this is going to be a bit like the 2012 season.

 

Hamilton is Alonso and is driving the wheels off his car and Vettel is Vettel (except he's making a few more errors here and there this year).

 

Will it end in the same way? It may well do, either way comparisons with Hamilton's driving to Alonso's in 2012 should be made IMO.

[Kev00]

Warrants a topic.

Overview of incidents and how it all impacted his WDC runs:

Vettel's errors have cost him 125 points against Hamilton

Quite something. Is Vettel too much under pressure? Is he just not good enough when going head-to-head instead of having a dominant car?

It doesn’t warrant a topic. The daily mail are shite. The first thing I read was ‘wild Italian lunge’ which it certainly was not. There’s no doubt he makes more mistakes than Hamilton but I’m guessing the whole article is a wild exaggeration.

[beachdrifter]

Still going to win handily this season even at the current error rate.

[Knowlesy]

I do wonder if this is going to be a bit like the 2012 season.

 

Hamilton is Alonso and is driving the wheels off his car and Vettel is Vettel (except he's making a few more errors here and there this year).

 

Will it end in the same way? It may well do, either way comparisons with Hamilton's driving to Alonso's in 2012 should be made IMO.

Or even with his own driving that season tbf.

[Claudius]

I think Vettels mistake warrant a topic

[AlexS]

125 pts are for both championships.

Edited by AlexS, 04 September 2018 - 17:24.

[Marklar]

Heh, is this the opposite of those old "Driver X lost Y points due to misfortune" threads?

[FrontWing]

They'll be back to sticking the boot into Lewis come Singapore.

[beachdrifter]

125 pts are for both championships.

 

Yeah, that was misleading. Should put that in the title of the thread.

[messy]

People keep saying Vettel will still win the WDC this season but I'm not convinced. Mercedes aren't THAT inferior and Hamilton is driving out of his skin.

[beachdrifter]

People keep saying Vettel will still win the WDC this season but I'm not convinced. Mercedes aren't THAT inferior* and Hamilton is driving out of his skin.

 

* on Merc's best tracks

[Dan333SP]

Still going to win handily this season even at the current error rate.

 

How do you figure? It's not like Ferrari has that much of a pace advantage, especially under race conditions. Personally, as a Ferrari fan, I think Vettel has flubbed away his shot at the title and I don't think he'll come back. 

[SCUDmissile]

I've probably been Vettel's harshest critic on this board the past couple days, but the Mail can **** off.

 

No real need to start a topic based on their articles, ever, imo

[statman]

Yeah, that was misleading. Should put that in the title of the thread.

 

Agree, but I can't edit topic title. "..in 2017 and 2018"

[TomNokoe]

This includes 2017 incidents, which is ridiculous. Nothing more to say.

[LH44Fan]

I've probably been Vettel's harshest critic on this board the past couple days, but the Mail can **** off.

 

No real need to start a topic based on their articles, ever, imo

 

+1 They are not a reputable source for any kind of information, not even the weather!

[Nonesuch]

Still going to win handily this season even at the current error rate.

 

That must be why he's a full race win and some behind in the championship.

[weston]

Vettel should have been WDC by Hungary, I guess.

Mail is that serious.

[Claudius]

People keep saying Vettel will still win the WDC this season but I'm not convinced. Mercedes aren't THAT inferior and Hamilton is driving out of his skin.

That’s just a narrative perpetuated to enhance Hamiltons status. By stating that Vettel will win the title, it makes a LH win seem more special...

[TomNokoe]

Will it end in the same way? It may well do, either way comparisons with Hamilton's driving to Alonso's in 2012 should be made IMO.

Unfortunately Alonso's 2012 is one a kind due to a number of factors.

Bonafide #1 status, incredible unreliability for his opponents and small gaps between teams.

It's closer to Hamilton's criminally underrated 2010.

[Gareth]

Agree, but I can't edit topic title. "..in 2017 and 2018"

Edited.

 

DM article, so text is a wild exageration.

 

Maths potentially holds up, but I think is a "worse case scenario" in each instance: eg it assumes in Germany that Vettel would have kept the lead had he not crashed, which is possible but far from certain (and makes a 14pt difference).

 

For anyone interested, it suggests a 45pt swing in 2017 without Vettel errors (leaving Hamilton as WDC still, but by 1pt only), and an 80pt swing so far this year (ie an error free Vettel could be leading by 50 points, rather than trailing by 30pts).

[Squeed]

Warrants a topic.

 

Overview of incidents and how it all impacted his WDC runs:

 

Vettel's errors have cost him 125 points against Hamilton

 

Quite something. Is Vettel too much under pressure? Is he just not good enough when going head-to-head instead of having a dominant car?

I can't read Italian, but it's my understanding that the Italian F1 press have been pounding Vettel over his mistakes for the past month.  I have to believe Ferrari are questioning whether Vettel is the right lead driver at this point, and that more so than questioning Kimi as a solid #2 is the most likely reason they are so eager to promote Leclerc.

[EvilWarMachine]

I really think this is getting blown out of all proportion. Every single driver makes mistakes, every single race weekend, with very, very few exceptions. Yes, Vettel has made mistakes that have cost him points, but they aren't massive errors at all. In fact, they are all very minor hiccups, just with big consequences.

 

Baku he locked up when trying to re-take the lead, after leading the majority of the race. Hamilton also locked up this race, on his own, at the same corner. Minor error with big consequences

French GP he was boxed in, lost downforce thereby misjudging his braking, probably by about 1or 2 meters. Minor error with big consequences

Hockenheim, if he brakes about 1/2 metre earlier he avoids the barrier. Minor error with big consequences

Italy slightly understeers into Hamilton, spins around and is dead last. No damage or deviance to the Mercedes. Minor error with big consequences

 

With a little bit of luck, all of the above would have seen little to zero impact on these races. I think he has been incredibly unlucky this season, and these slight, but costly errors are really fooling people into thinking Vettel is not driving well.

Edited by EvilWarMachine, 04 September 2018 - 17:40.

[beachdrifter]

How do you figure? It's not like Ferrari has that much of a pace advantage, especially under race conditions. Personally, as a Ferrari fan, I think Vettel has flubbed away his shot at the title and I don't think he'll come back. 

 

You can simply look at the relative year-on-year improvements Ferrari made over Merc at every track, especially since they introduced their "trick" (dangit someone should coin a better term for it!). Then you can roughly guesstimate the performance advantage they'll have at the remaining tracks, under normal circumstances.

 

When you say Ferrari doesn't have that much of a pace advantage, I think you're still influenced by tracks that used to be very strong for Mercedes (so naturally at those it would at least still be relatively close). At the next race in Singapore, Ferrari already had an advantage of at least 6 tenths over Merc last season. 

 

It's not a 100% reliable method, and weather can make a difference (as it did in Hockenheim and Hungary), but under normal circumstances, they should have a rather substantial performance advantage, much more than we saw at Spa for example (where Lewis still didn't have a chance and threw the towel early). 

[Afterburner]

I really think this is getting blown out of all proportion. Every single driver makes mistakes, every single race weekend, with very, very few exceptions. Yes, Vettel has made mistakes that have cost him points, but they aren't massive errors at all. In fact, they are all very minor hiccups, just with big consequences.
 
Baku he locked up when trying to re-take the lead, after leading the majority of the race. Hamilton also locked up this race, on his own, at the same corner. Minor error with big consequences
French GP he was boxed in, lost downforce thereby misjudging his braking, probably by about 1or 2 meters. Minor error with big consequences
Hockenheim, if he brakes about 1/2 metre earlier he avoids the barrier. Minor error with big consequences
Italy slightly understeers into Hamilton, spins around and is dead last. No damage or deviance to the Mercedes. Minor error with big consequences
 
With a little bit of luck, all of the above would have seen little to zero impact on these races. I think he has been incredibly unlucky this season, and these slight, but costly errors are really fooling people into thinking Vettel is not driving well.

I accept your premise, but when you race for the Scuderia there are no small errors.

[Dan333SP]

I really think this is getting blown out of all proportion. Every single driver makes mistakes, every single race weekend, with very, very few exceptions. Yes, Vettel has made mistakes that have cost him points, but they aren't massive errors at all. In fact, they are all very minor hiccups, just with big consequences.

 

Baku he locked up when trying to re-take the lead, after leading the majority of the race. Hamilton also locked up this race, on his own, at the same corner. Minor error with big consequences

French GP he was boxed in, lost downforce thereby misjudging his braking, probably by about 1or 2 meters. Minor error with big consequences

Hockenheim, if he brakes about 1/2 metre earlier he avoids the barrier. Minor error with big consequences

Italy slightly understeers into Hamilton, spins around and is dead last. No damage or deviance to the Mercedes. Minor error with big consequences

 

With a little bit of luck, all of the above would have seen little to zero impact on these races. I think he has been incredibly unlucky this season, and these slight, but costly errors are really fooling people into thinking Vettel is not driving well.

 

What would you consider a major error, then? Vettel literally crashed out of the lead in Germany. Short of being injured in the crash, isn't that about as major an error as one can make? 

[beachdrifter]

What would you consider a major error, then? Vettel literally crashed out of the lead in Germany. Short of being injured in the crash, isn't that about as major an error as one can make? 

 

Yeah, I mean considering the speed these cars are going at, just about every minor thing becomes major in terms of impact, and (as you can always see in the respective drivers thread), there is always some sort of excuse for why it happened, or why it was "minor".  

[RhysL1218]

Absolutely terrible article, usually it's the Daily Mail sticking it to Lewis, their paper isn't even worth wiping your arse with 

[ForzaFormula]

Regardless if it's the daily mail and how bad they mostly are, this article at least is saying it how it is mostly and show's how much Vettel's error's have cost him.

[OO7]

Unfortunately Alonso's 2012 is one a kind due to a number of factors.

Bonafide #1 status, incredible unreliability for his opponents and small gaps between teams.

It's closer to Hamilton's criminally underrated 2010.

You forgot the Pirelli lottery Tom.

[EvilWarMachine]

What would you consider a major error, then? Vettel literally crashed out of the lead in Germany. Short of being injured in the crash, isn't that about as major an error as one can make? 

 

This is a minor error with major consequences. There is a difference.

A major error is, say, running into the back of someone who is stationary at the end of the pitlane.

[TomNokoe]

I think he has been incredibly unlucky this season, and these slight, but costly errors are really fooling people into thinking Vettel is not driving well.

Luck?

Vettel was ridiculously lucky that there were safety cars called for both France and Italy immediately after his incidents otherwise he would've struggled to make the points.

[EvilWarMachine]

Luck?

Vettel was ridiculously lucky that there were safety cars called for both France and Italy immediately after his incidents otherwise he would've struggled to make the points.

 

Unlucky with the consequences of his small errors.

You're right though, he was lucky in Italy with the safety car as it wasn't brought out for his incident!!

[OO7]

I really think this is getting blown out of all proportion. Every single driver makes mistakes, every single race weekend, with very, very few exceptions. Yes, Vettel has made mistakes that have cost him points, but they aren't massive errors at all. In fact, they are all very minor hiccups, just with big consequences.

 

Baku he locked up when trying to re-take the lead, after leading the majority of the race. Hamilton also locked up this race, on his own, at the same corner. Minor error with big consequences

French GP he was boxed in, lost downforce thereby misjudging his braking, probably by about 1or 2 meters. Minor error with big consequences

Hockenheim, if he brakes about 1/2 metre earlier he avoids the barrier. Minor error with big consequences

Italy slightly understeers into Hamilton, spins around and is dead last. No damage or deviance to the Mercedes. Minor error with big consequences

 

With a little bit of luck, all of the above would have seen little to zero impact on these races. I think he has been incredibly unlucky this season, and these slight, but costly errors are really fooling people into thinking Vettel is not driving well.

[beachdrifter]

Unlucky with the consequences of his small errors.

You're right though, he was lucky in Italy with the safety car as it wasn't brought out for his incident!!

 

Also in Spa, when the SC was brought out the moment he had completed his move, neutralising the race, and making it impossible for Lewis to fight back.

 

It probably didn't change the outcome of the race, though, as the Ferrari was just too fast on the straights.

Edited by beachdrifter, 04 September 2018 - 18:11.

[RECKLESS]

We might all thank Vettel in the end for taking the battle to the last race. Got a feeling it will go down to the wire.

[as65p]

I do wonder if this is going to be a bit like the 2012 season.

 

Hamilton is Alonso and is driving the wheels off his car and Vettel is Vettel (except he's making a few more errors here and there this year).

 

Will it end in the same way? It may well do, either way comparisons with Hamilton's driving to Alonso's in 2012 should be made IMO.

 

So by now the W09 is compared to "Clifford", seriously?

 

Seven to go, by Abu Dhabi Hamiltons Mercedes will be judged as akin to a Minardi.

[Whatisvalis]

I really think this is getting blown out of all proportion. Every single driver makes mistakes, every single race weekend, with very, very few exceptions. Yes, Vettel has made mistakes that have cost him points, but they aren't massive errors at all. In fact, they are all very minor hiccups, just with big consequences.

Baku he locked up when trying to re-take the lead, after leading the majority of the race. Hamilton also locked up this race, on his own, at the same corner. Minor error with big consequences

French GP he was boxed in, lost downforce thereby misjudging his braking, probably by about 1or 2 meters. Minor error with big consequences

Hockenheim, if he brakes about 1/2 metre earlier he avoids the barrier. Minor error with big consequences

Italy slightly understeers into Hamilton, spins around and is dead last. No damage or deviance to the Mercedes. Minor error with big consequences

With a little bit of luck, all of the above would have seen little to zero impact on these races. I think he has been incredibly unlucky this season, and these slight, but costly errors are really fooling people into thinking Vettel is not driving well.

They are massive errors when fighting for the WDC, especially against Hamilton.

Hasn't he had three first lap incidents in the last 12 months? Mexico 17, France and Italy.

[Spillage]

I don't know about the maths here, but he's definitely making too many errors. Which is strange, because he was very reliable at Red Bull. His 2013 campaign is one of the best I've ever seen.

Maybe it's the Ferrari pressure. Many have tried to tame the prancing horse and and most have failed. Vettel has always been a little hot-headed under pressure - Webber said he could never deal with the unknown - and that's manifesting itself in errors now, especially wheel-to-wheel.

Edited by Spillage, 04 September 2018 - 18:30.

[LH44Fan]

So by now the W09 is compared to "Clifford", seriously?

 

Seven to go, by Abu Dhabi Hamiltons Mercedes will be judged as akin to a Minardi.

 

Not even that, a push-kart 

[engineblock1]

Unlucky with the consequences of his small errors.

You're right though, he was lucky in Italy with the safety car as it wasn't brought out for his incident!!

One can never take advantage or be disadvantaged by the Safety Car brought by himself. Because they retire afterwards 99% of the times SC is brought out

[Jvr]

Agree with the unreliability of the Mail.

 

However, there are other more reputable sources also having done some calculations. I think this is one of those and has been issued before Monza and Spa:

"So, what would that mean for the championship? Well, those four incidents alone have potentially cost Vettel 53 points. Had he finished those races in the positions he would - or should - have done, then Hamilton would currently be 17 points worse off. That’s a massive 70-point swing"

 

https://wtf1.com/pos...away-this-year/

Edited by Jvr, 04 September 2018 - 18:49.

[CL16]

Seasons only join together when it’s Jenson Vs Lewis. Get with the programme.

[AlexS]

Daily Mail still does news that no one of "reputable" media touches...

 

 

 

 

I can't read Italian, but it's my understanding that the Italian F1 press have been pounding Vettel over his mistakes for the past month.  I have to believe Ferrari are questioning whether Vettel is the right lead driver at this point, and that more so than questioning Kimi as a solid #2 is the most likely reason they are so eager to promote Leclerc.

Yes

 

Perché questo campionato narra non certo e non tanto, come dovrebbe, la sfida tra Ferrari e Mercedes o tra il capitano della Ferrari e Lewis Hamilton, ma il confronto sofferto, ruvido, ansiogeno, abrasivo e solo a tratti rassicurante tra Sebastian Vettel e se stesso.

 

: because this championship story is not like it should be only a tale of a fight between Ferrari and Mercedes or between the team leaders, but the suffered, rough, anxious, abrasive confront between Vettel and himself.

 

 

http://autosprint.co...rpresa_vettel_/

[Massa]

Raikkonen fault.

[AlexS]

Raikkonen fault.

 

For having got a pole at Monza...

[Marklar]

I think Vettel has been terribly error-prone once again and I hope that it will cost him this time unlike it did in 2010 and 2012 (although it kinda already did in 2009 and 2017 to be fair) and I also think that he makes way more mistakes than a driver of his record, experience and supposed class should do, but the reaction is a little bit over the top, especially as after Spa some people were reacting the polar opposite way lmao.

This overreaction literally asks for Vettel to have a master drive in Singapore while Hamilton makes one of his rare mistakes and bins it into the wall 

[Bleu]

While it is clear that Vettel has made several error some of there were exaggerated - like the win at Monza. Basically he had lost a corner so Vettel would have needed to find a way to move ahead of Lewis again. In France we can say same about his clash with Bottas in France.