122 replies to this topic

[Macca]

The entry list for the Goodwood Revival has now been made public:

 

https://www.goodwood...try-list-v2.pdf

 

Comments? There seem to be a couple of odd/different things this year.

 

 

Paul M

[JonnyA]

Not a single Ferrari in the TT?!

[condor]

What are the odd/different things? Looks similar to previous years. I'm on duty 1-3pm Earl's Court Sat and Sun if anyone wants to say hello 

[Lee Nicolle]

Looking through that,, Guy Martin on a Vincent and Jason Plato in a Galaxie and a Vette. Some foreign entries for both of them, Guy used too modern Superbikes and Plato is front drive 2 litres.

[sabrejet]

Shan't be going due to abundance of ignorant and rude hoorays. Shame because it's a lovely meeting, if looking a bit jaded.

 

Still, MM tickets are on sale so I shall look forward to 2019 and watch Revival online. 

[ensign14]

Only doing the Friday cos of time pressures.  Better than nothing.

[nicanary]

I am taking my 32-year old daughter and her fiance this year - they are mildly interested in motoring and I'm hoping just the sight and sound of some nice cars will enhance their viewpoint. They have already been misinformed by others that some of the entries are kit cars (sic) and I've had to go to lengths to explain that some owners are rich enough to have toolroom copies made of their expensive assets.

 

I fully understand why some of us don't take to the whole theatrical aspect. Personally I find the set-piece actors in the village area quite excruciating, but if it attracts bums, and those bums fill seats, then what's the harm? It's a case of selecting what you want to watch, and ignoring the rest. I have to say, it never ceases to amaze me how many people feel the need for alcohol at 9.00am, but who am I to judge?

 

PS For those on a shoestring, try Airbnb next year. The three of us are being accomodated in a 3-bed house in Havant for £300 total, for 3 nights. I'm still pinching myself.

[pete53]

I've enjoyed many Goodwood Revivals including the very first one on that beautiful sunny weekend back in 1998. One element that is now largely missing from the Revival, and unavoidably so, is the presence of drivers who were racing during the original Goodwood years. I have been looking at the programmes from the first two Revivals  and among the competitors were Stirling Moss, Jack Brabham, Phil Hill, John Surtees, Frank Gardner, John Whitmore, Trevor Taylor, Jochen Neerspach, Bob Bondurant, John Rhodes, David Piper, John Fitzpatrick etc.

 

The presence of these drivers gave a special ingredient to the proceedings and gave the event an added sparkle, and provided a bridge between the old and new Goodwood. Of course 20 years have passed since 1998 and sadly many of the names mentioned are no longer with us, or, age and infirmity have caught up with others. At least Derek Bell, Jack Oliver, Richard Attwood and Brian Redman are still there, so good on them.

[hamsterace]

Not a single Ferrari in the TT?!

 

To be fair, there are twelve of them in the (TT-spin off) Kinrara Trophy on Friday evening - so it merely looks as if it is a case of certain entries having been reassigned to different races in recent years.

 

My impression is that the Kinrara Trophy largely came about as a result of the crash/ bang/ wallop tactics of certain TT car/ driver combinations (they know who they are!), and that it was put forward as a slightly less frantic alternative - for some very, very nice cars - to the "feature race".

 

That being said, the development and consequent modern-day pace of the early '61 spec E types continues to astound me (and doubtless many others), so there is always a danger that the Kinrara will go the same way as the TT. After all, why would one want to risk a highly original DB4GT or Comp. SWB against a (relatively) expendable E type or similar? This, I fear, is the crossroads Goodwood is at.

Edited by hamsterace, 05 September 2018 - 13:01.

[Belmondo]

Are you racing the Lister this year Simon?

[Charlieman]

They have already been misinformed by others that some of the entries are kit cars (sic) and I've had to go to lengths to explain that some owners are rich enough to have toolroom copies made of their expensive assets.

Enjoy your visit, nicanary.

 

What does "toolroom" mean? To me, it defines the engineering precision executed in a workshop where tools are made and maintained.

 

But historic racing cars were never made to precise dimensions* even when every component was drawn in outline in advance. Before 3D CAD programs existed, the rod gear change mechanism for every rear engine racing car was finalised when the car was assembled. Then somebody measured it and drew it. 

 

A "toolroom copy" is "toolroom" in that the car's dimensions are accurate; it looks like the original. For the recreation, it is impossible to avoid how the world changes. Every material has been replaced by something better. Welding technology is better. It would take an awful lot of work to make a copy using the same materials and methods.

 

* There's a separate argument about whether any 2018 racing car which relies on humans to cut and lay up carbon fibre is precise.

[BRG]

Looking through that,, Guy Martin on a Vincent and Jason Plato in a Galaxie and a Vette. Some foreign entries for both of them, Guy used too modern Superbikes and Plato is front drive 2 litres.

Guy Martin will turn his hand to anything with wheels, and make a fair fist of it. 

 

Plato wasn't always FWD toruing cars, he won the Renault Spider championship in the 1990s taking 11 out of 14 races, and also raced in F. Renault and F3, plus the obligatory karting beginnings.   All RWD of course.  I don'tt like his tactics much as a driver, but he does have a lot of talent and he can chew up and spit out Galaxies or 'Vettes.

 

And anyway, that is part of the charm of the Revival, to see current drivers geting to grips with period equipment.

[JonnyA]

To be fair, there are twelve of them in the (TT-spin off) Kinrara Trophy on Friday evening - so it merely looks as if it is a case of certain entries having been reassigned to different races in recent years.

 

My impression is that the Kinrara Trophy largely came about as a result of the crash/ bang/ wallop tactics of certain TT car/ driver combinations (they know who they are!), and that it was put forward as a slightly less frantic alternative - for some very, very nice cars - to the "feature race".

 

That being said, the development and consequent modern-day pace of the early '61 spec E types continues to astound me (and doubtless many others), so there is always a danger that the Kinrara will go the same way as the TT. After all, why would one want to risk a highly original DB4GT or Comp. SWB against a (relatively) expendable E type or similar? This, I fear, is the crossroads Goodwood is at.

 

The TT suffers because the E types and Cobras have all out-developed the Ferraris (or as you say the owners are more willing to risk them). 

[hamsterace]

Are you racing the Lister this year Simon?

 

Sadly not. Goodwood did kindly offer me an entry, but work commitments this week and next, and family commitments this weekend meant that I had to politely decline. I thought that rather than try to juggle these with racing - and potentially make a complete hash of all three - I should do the decent thing and pass on this occasion.

 

After the disappointment (agony?) of hitting the wall just after Fordwater last year, it wasn't a decision I took lightly. Hopefully I may get asked again in 2019 though...

[Garsted]

No one-make or one-model races this year thank heavens.

 

Steve.

[GazChed]

Don't forget the Settrington Cup ....

[sabrejet]

Having seen the Kinrara TV coverage from previous years, I'm inclined (should I decide to attend Revival again) to do the Friday. That one race is beginning to overshadow many of those on the Sat/Sun, including the TT and Whitsun Trophy.

[pete53]

Having seen the Kinrara TV coverage from previous years, I'm inclined (should I decide to attend Revival again) to do the Friday. That one race is beginning to overshadow many of those on the Sat/Sun, including the TT and Whitsun Trophy.

I agree. I enjoy the Whitsun Trophy and seeing all the "big-bangers" but half of its time allocation always seems to be spent with the cars crawling along behind the safety car because of incidents. Meanwhile the TT has sometimes been spoilt by the absence of cars which are competing in one-make races instead , e.g. Cobras and E-types, and now, heaven forbid,  there are no Ferraris!

Edited by pete53, 06 September 2018 - 08:22.

[GazChed]

The Ferraris appear to have been replaced by two Porsche 904s and Mike Whitaker's TVR Griffith .

I always look forward to the Glover Trophy and this year no fewer than six one litre Formula Two cars take on the 1.5 litre Grand Prix cars . Historic Formula Ford hotshoes Ben Mitchell and Michael O'Brien ( now a British GT racer ) drive Lola T60's and it will be interesting to see how they get on against the likes of regular winner Andy Middlehurst and his Lotus and Richard Attwood in a BRM P261 .

[Andrew Stevens]

Part of the problem of lack of Ferraris in the TT is the level and cost of development. A good Ferrari 250 engine was already pretty well developed in period and the best ones now probably make 320-330hp, wheras a 3.8 Jag motor (even with iron block) will be a lot further ahead and a Ford V8 or Chevy V8 will be even further. The Ferrari engines have never had the same level of development put into them as there hasn't been as many about and as much need to do it. Listen out for the V8 motors that sound different though. Every now and then you get one that sounds like a more modern V8 rather than the 'old school' V8 noise and it usually means that it's  bit different internally...

 

Still, looking forward to the weekend, it's a great overall show even with all the 'sideshow' element and one of the historic motorsport highlights.  I just wish that Goodwood would be more clear in the descriptions of the cars. They used to say (for example) 1959 'Type' 246 Dino which meant you could understand the difference between the period and 'later' cars, not to mention the various 'semi-lightweight' E-Types!  I still think the cars should maybe run different coloured numbers or something like that to easily differentiate the period and newer build cars, but that's a can of worms I know!

[Vitesse2]

And we're LIVE!

 

[Lee Nicolle]

Guy Martin will turn his hand to anything with wheels, and make a fair fist of it. 

 

Plato wasn't always FWD toruing cars, he won the Renault Spider championship in the 1990s taking 11 out of 14 races, and also raced in F. Renault and F3, plus the obligatory karting beginnings.   All RWD of course.  I don'tt like his tactics much as a driver, but he does have a lot of talent and he can chew up and spit out Galaxies or 'Vettes.

 

And anyway, that is part of the charm of the Revival, to see current drivers geting to grips with period equipment.

But has he ever driven  a torquey thing with in the Galaxies case a fair amount of loose handling. 

Guy should do ok, though a 4 speed gearbox with the shift where the rear brake should be.

For both it will be a long way from their normal.

[Tim Murray]

But has he ever driven a torquey thing with in the Galaxies case a fair amount of loose handling.

Yes.

https://www.goodwood...rvette-at-73mm/

He’s raced a wide variety of cars at Goodwood, including a Boss Mustang, a Cooper S and an Austin Westminster.

[opplock]

 

For both it will be a long way from their normal.

 

Guy Martin has raced a Manx Norton at Wanganui. 

[Gary C]

Do we know if it's on the tv at all? Normally someone picks it up but I can't see it in the listings. And yes, I know about YouTube and the Goodwood website. ..

[Gary C]

Good God! I've just found it on ITV1 on Sunday afternoon. ...the last place I was looking!

[Bloggsworth]

Good God! I've just found it on ITV1 on Sunday afternoon. ...the last place I was looking!

 

Only 2 hours, and half of that will be blather of no interest to the likes of we...

[sabrejet]

Only 2 hours, and half of that will be blather of no interest to the likes of we...

 

So so true. The terrestrial feed is a pointless waste of time (with adverts) when compared to uninterrupted streaming.

[JoBo]

The TT suffers because the E types and Cobras have all out-developed the Ferraris (or as you say the owners are more willing to risk them). 

 

A lot of them also with brandnew, highly tuned engines! The E-Types are simply too cheap to repair. Its cheaper to buy a brandnew engine rather than repair a damaged one....

[David Birchall]

The E types can now rev to 7500 rpm...

[john aston]

But has he ever driven  a torquey thing with in the Galaxies case a fair amount of loose handling. 

Guy should do ok, though a 4 speed gearbox with the shift where the rear brake should be.

For both it will be a long way from their normal.

 Err yes- how about a Mustang?  Martin has also done Time Attack , and won when I saw him .

 

It's tempting to loftily dismiss the likes of Plato because we don't like his panto villain TV persona, or the push to pass BTCC.  but you underestimate drivers like him at your peril. They are from the top drawer  - and you only have to look at Shedden , Huff and Plato in older cars  to see why .  Or go and watch modern BTCC in the wet from trackside  , as I did last year . Horrible sounding cars, awful paintwork and  a rather different fan base than Goodwood  - but my God the  top BTCC guys  were impressive.   

[Andrew Stevens]

Maybe slightly less incentive for proper 250 GTOs to come out to play too when there are two replicas (i.e. nice 2+2 models or similar) chopped up to make 'GTO' pastiches that are worth an awful lot less than the real thing.  the 330GTO is a genuine car, the silver thing is a fake 'GTO' and the course car in Maranello Concessionaires colours is a fake 'GTO' as well.  Found it hard to have sympathy for the silver car failing at the start after I checked it out in the paddock.  I speak as an enthusiast of the more humble models of V12 Ferrari that are special and wonderful cars on their own and deserve better fates!  Suspicious of SWB car number 8 too - didn't look closely enough in the paddock to be sure though. Please, please Goodwood, stop promoting these car as real umpteen million pound cars when they are nothing like it.  Rant over now... 

Edited by Andrew Stevens, 08 September 2018 - 08:27.

[Lee Nicolle]

What the hell is the 'live stream playing'  I was watching then it disapeared for the St Marys cup. Grrr, half assed. I have no hope of attending at 22 hours in a plane!

Sorry, more paywall crap!!

[pete53]

I am watching on the stream ... same great racing so far.. I wish I was there. Am I imagining it or is a little more discretion is being used as to when to use the safety car? There have been a few incidents where a car has ended up stationary on the outside of the track but the drivers have been trusted to comply with the yellow flag regulations and racing allowed to continue?

 

Good to see the Whitsun Trophy race run from start to finish without the usual interruptions.

[Garsted]

It's been working fine all day for me, free on You Tube

 

 

Steve

[RCH]

Jack Sears Memorial Trophy. At last a race for saloon/touring cars which reflected how such an event would have been in the '50's. Jaguars dominating and no Austin "hotrods" getting in the way.

[Bloggsworth]

Jack Sears Memorial Trophy. At last a race for saloon/touring cars which reflected how such an event would have been in the '50's. Jaguars dominating and no Austin "hotrods" getting in the way.

 

I was there when Doc Shepperd first beat the Jaguars in his A40 - He certainly didn't "get in the way" his and William's efforts turned a procession Jaguars, differing only in the dullness of their colour schemes, into exciting races.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 09 September 2018 - 07:35.

[RCH]

So you are saying that the 3 Jaguars racing for the lead yesterday was merely "a procession"? Without looking it up Doc Shepperd's major success was in 1960(?) when the BSCC was for highly modified 1 litre cars only. The modifications allowed to the A40's were much greater than those allowed for the Jaguars which were running in the same race. Otherwise the 1 litre cars were generally a lap or so down on the lead by the end of the race.

 

Now I've looked it up, to quote the late Frank de Jong:

 

The 1960 British championship was something new indeed. The cars running for the championship were "special touring cars", so most things could be altered. The cylinder block, rear axle casing, gearbox casing, wheelbase and rim diameter and overall apearance had to remain standard; everything else could me modified. But the snag was that it was open for unsupercharged cars under 1000 cc only.

The cars were pretty fast, as expected; too early yet for Mini domination, but Shepherd's Austin A40 was often amongst the Jaguar 3.8's in combined races, and Young's Anglia was not far behind either. But Shepherd was the dominant force, winning six races and retiring in the other two. I haven't got a clue about the championship points or the second in the championship; if anyone knows let me know.

 

Edited by RCH, 09 September 2018 - 08:03.

[GazChed]

Good news not only are ITV showing the RAC TT but also the Glover Trophy race live . Looking forward to seeing what Ben Mitchell can do in his Formula Two Lola against the 1.5 litre Grand Prix cars. Oh , and plenty of fashion news as well ....

[Allan Lupton]

Tried ITV and as expected not much there for me - half an hour of chatting by people who asked the wrong questions and then, despite the "revival" name, a race for Cobras and Jaguar E types, none of which could have raced there when Goodwood was operational.

Interestingly there were several driver/car combinations which I remember seeing in all-comers' races at Bentley D.C. Silverstone 20-odd years ago when they were racing outdated motorcars just for fun! Hope they still have fun.

[Bloggsworth]

 

So you are saying that the 3 Jaguars racing for the lead yesterday was merely "a procession"? Without looking it up Doc Shepperd's major success was in 1960(?) when the BSCC was for highly modified 1 litre cars only. The modifications allowed to the A40's were much greater than those allowed for the Jaguars which were running in the same race. Otherwise the 1 litre cars were generally a lap or so down on the lead by the end of the race.

 

Now I've looked it up, to quote the late Frank de Jong:

 

The 1960 British championship was something new indeed. The cars running for the championship were "special touring cars", so most things could be altered. The cylinder block, rear axle casing, gearbox casing, wheelbase and rim diameter and overall apearance had to remain standard; everything else could me modified. But the snag was that it was open for unsupercharged cars under 1000 cc only.

The cars were pretty fast, as expected; too early yet for Mini domination, but Shepherd's Austin A40 was often amongst the Jaguar 3.8's in combined races, and Young's Anglia was not far behind either. But Shepherd was the dominant force, winning six races and retiring in the other two. I haven't got a clue about the championship points or the second in the championship; if anyone knows let me know.

 

 

 

What was it about "I was there when Doc Shepperd first..." that made you think I was talking about this century, let alone September 2018?

[JonnyA]

Well the single-seaters I saw behaved themselves, but some of the tin-top front runners need to calm down before the whole thing gets ruined by a major incident.

[BRG]

Surprise arrival of tickets courtesy of the MSA (at last, value for all those licence fees!) took me to G'wood today.  A fine day out - last time I was there the year started with a 19... and I was impressed how much it has grown.  Some oddities like a steam locomotive (why?  I love steam engines but at a race track?) but the same core of racing - often close but rarely anything but fair and amazingly conducted on the track, not on the runoffs.  If a bunch of superannuated racers and amateurs can keep it on the track, why do the 'best drivers in the world' ^TM have so much trouble?  Nice tributes to Whizzo Williams, Rob Walker and Dan Gurney (DCN's dulcet tones there).

 

 As for the fancy dress, no harm, no fail but I was a little bemused to see a bloke in full WW2 air crew garb including flying boots and a Mae West. Traffic management surprisingly good, Silverstone take note please!  Once we finally managed to locate our car, we were out and away in ten minutes.

[Charlieman]

Well the single-seaters I saw behaved themselves, but some of the tin-top front runners need to calm down before the whole thing gets ruined by a major incident.

I used to give up whilst watching the Goodwood stream. There were too many drivers out of their depth creating a mess for those capable of going racing. I'm not suited to millionaire dodgem cars.

 

IMHO the quality of driving this year was much better, more respectful. The track collisions which created thumped up Austins, ouch -- repair costs for a Rootes car or Jowett would have been even more serious -- weren't BTCC push and nudge. They were racing accidents.

[Vitesse2]

The steam loco was there to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the nationalisation of British Railways, which was of course the same year that Goodwood opened.

[Vitesse2]

I used to give up whilst watching the Goodwood stream. There were too many drivers out of their depth creating a mess for those capable of going racing. I'm not suited to millionaire dodgem cars.

 

IMHO the quality of driving this year was much better, more respectful. The track collisions which created thumped up Austins, ouch -- repair costs for a Rootes car or Jowett would have been even more serious -- weren't BTCC push and nudge. They were racing accidents.

Agreed. Very much better behaved than in the past, with some good close racing. Although I suspect the bodyshell of that heavily rolled Cortina may end up in the crusher and the Mini which hit the bank at speed may not see the track again any time soon ...

[BRG]

The steam loco was there to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the nationalisation of British Railways, which was of course the same year that Goodwood opened.

Hmm, rather tenuous.  Although of course, we all remember Goodwood Junction station, sadly a victim of Dr Beeching.

[Charlieman]

Although I suspect the bodyshell of that heavily rolled Cortina may end up in the crusher and the Mini which hit the bank at speed may not see the track again any time soon ...

The Cortina may be headed to the crusher? -- roll cage and all, nothing worth scavenging... We all saw those floor pressings rolling over, and thought "that kept together well". Put a top on that bottom.

 

The Mini (Richard Meaden?) would have become a cut-and-shut road car creation in the 60s and 70s after the accident. Given how roll cages work nowadays, the car may be recoverable as a racer.

[RCH]

What was it about "I was there when Doc Shepperd first..." that made you think I was talking about this century, let alone September 2018?

 

Well weren't you comparing Mk 1 Jaguars racing unfettered by over developed tiddlers to a time before Doc Shepherd?

Edited by RCH, 09 September 2018 - 22:09.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Congratulations to the Goodwood crew for an outstanding live stream with a minimum of fluff. Everything looked fantastic, especially the Glover Trophy and the motorbikes. Great stuff! I was glued to my screen all weekend, when I could have been out driving in the beautiful late summer!

I miss Revival terribly, but can only do one event per year, so our must-do for the past three years has been MM. Having survived the Blizzard of '18 we're looking forward to improved weather circumstances next April.....and thanks to Duke & Co. for moving the date.

PS: The Rob Walker tribute was also exceptional. What a fantastic array of automobiles, and that was only some of them....

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 09 September 2018 - 23:38.