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#5251 bibliophagos

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 18:55

I mentioned it as the very first guess, but must be on everyone's ignore list.



Oops, sorry, didn't even notice it. Had to browse back through the thread. Fair is fair though, you had it first :)

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#5252 GrzegorzChyla

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 19:51

That’s not a bad group to be a part of.

By definition you have to be a two times World Champion to be on that list so understandably this can't be a bad group.

 

BTW. Ascari, Fangio and Brabham also managed to retain their titles.

Multiple champions, who naver retained their title were Clark, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Lauda and Piquet.



#5253 Collombin

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 20:23

Multiple champions, who naver retained their title were Clark, Stewart


Until recent times Scottish drivers were only allowed to win the WDC in odd numbered years, and English drivers only in even years. Moss, being part English part Scottish wasn't allowed to win it at all.

#5254 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 08:01

An interesting related statistic is Williams won so many drivers championships, but no driver won more than once with them. Jones, Rosberg, Piquet, Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve. A bizarre pattern for a team that dominated so much of the 80s and 90s.


Because they ditched most of them after winning title.

They ditched Piquet after 1987 title, Mansell after 1992 title, Prost after 1993 title and Hill after 1996 title.

All of them except for Piquet in 1988 could have won another title if they would have been retained for another season

Mansell would easily win again in 1993 and Hill in 1997

In this scenario Prost and Villeneuve would never happen and Williams' list of champions would look more "normal"

Nothing against Prost and Villeneuve. Term "normal" is related to fewer champions and some of them repeated.

#5255 Spillage

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 08:17

Leclerc on pole with 0.7 seconds!
When did the pole setter have such a huge advantage last time?
And what was the biggest ever advantage?

Mark Webber was on pole for the 2010 Malaysian GP by 1.3 seconds. Hamilton had pole by 1.1 at Monza in 2017.

As others have mentioned, Ickx presumably has the record.

#5256 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 09:28

Unless Mercedes hit the ‘jinx of 100 wins’:



we can extend that 100th jinx to CART as well:

Team Penske rapidly gathered 80th-99th, the 99th in 1997 but for the 100th victory he had to wait till the 2K era had started....

#5257 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 09:33

Because they ditched most of them after winning title.

They ditched Piquet after 1987 title, Mansell after 1992 title, Prost after 1993 title and Hill after 1996 title.

All of them except for Piquet in 1988 could have won another title if they would have been retained for another season

Mansell would easily win again in 1993 and Hill in 1997

In this scenario Prost and Villeneuve would never happen and Williams' list of champions would look more "normal"

Nothing against Prost and Villeneuve. Term "normal" is related to fewer champions and some of them repeated.


Piquet wasn't ditched, he took off by his own choice, at best that choice was influenced by some decisions of Frank&Patrick but he wasn't told to leave.
Same was valid for Mansell and Prost. They could stay on, the intention was to replace their team mates, not them. They only felt it different and thus took off.

#5258 JeePee

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 09:39

Question:

 

Ferrari, and thus Leclerc, has a good change of winning in Monza. How many times did a driver win his first 2 grand prix's consecutive?



#5259 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 09:41

Question:
 
Ferrari, and thus Leclerc, has a good change of winning in Monza. How many times did a driver win his first 2 grand prix's consecutive?


Mansell made it three in row in '85

Edit FAULT!!! only twice, Keke added a third for Williams-Honda after Mansell's double

Edited by Henri Greuter, 03 September 2019 - 09:43.


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#5260 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 09:53

Damon Hill won his first three in a row (Hungary-Belgium-Italy 1993).

So did Mika Häkkinen (Jerez 1997-Australia 1998-Brazil 1998).

#5261 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 11:43

Because they ditched most of them after winning title.

They ditched Piquet after 1987 title, Mansell after 1992 title, Prost after 1993 title and Hill after 1996 title.

All of them except for Piquet in 1988 could have won another title if they would have been retained for another season

Mansell would easily win again in 1993 and Hill in 1997

In this scenario Prost and Villeneuve would never happen and Williams' list of champions would look more "normal"

Nothing against Prost and Villeneuve. Term "normal" is related to fewer champions and some of them repeated.


Not sure about Damon in 97, as much as I love the guy it would have been close against JV with extra year of experience and MS with improved Ferrari.

#5262 marcg

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 11:47

Question:

 

Ferrari, and thus Leclerc, has a good change of winning in Monza. How many times did a driver win his first 2 grand prix's consecutive?

Hamilton won the Canadian and US GP within a week in 2007.



#5263 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 11:47

Had Damon stayed on in 1997 I think you could make a strong case for Schumacher being the most likely champion, as Hill and Villeneuve presumably would have taken more points off each other than HHF and Villeneuve did.

#5264 PayasYouRace

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 11:53

Because they ditched most of them after winning title.

They ditched Piquet after 1987 title, Mansell after 1992 title, Prost after 1993 title and Hill after 1996 title.

All of them except for Piquet in 1988 could have won another title if they would have been retained for another season

Mansell would easily win again in 1993 and Hill in 1997

In this scenario Prost and Villeneuve would never happen and Williams' list of champions would look more "normal"

Nothing against Prost and Villeneuve. Term "normal" is related to fewer champions and some of them repeated.

 

The Williams world champions thing gets way overblown. Of their seven world champions, they only sacked one. Piquet wasn't ditched. He just preferred to big a big fish in a small Honda-powered pond at Lotus rather than end up with the Williams-Judd. It only came to that because Williams wanted to keep both its drivers and not accept Nakajima as part of the Honda deal. As for Mansell and Prost, they both left because they didn't want to be teammates to Prost and Senna respectively after their own past experiences.

 

Of the 3 that stayed, only Jones had a car that could have potentially allowed him to defend the title. Rosberg and Villeneuve had the misfortune of changing regulations altering the competitive order.

 

 

Not sure about Damon in 97, as much as I love the guy it would have been close against JV with extra year of experience and MS with improved Ferrari.

 

 

Had Damon stayed on in 1997 I think you could make a strong case for Schumacher being the most likely champion, as Hill and Villeneuve presumably would have taken more points off each other than HHF and Villeneuve did.

 

I reckon it would have been a good 3 way fight. Similar to 1996 but with Villeneuve being closer to Hill and the Ferrari being closer to Williams. I think the "taken points off each other" thing is a myth. Damon would have taken points of both Jacques and Michael in such a competitive year.



#5265 sopa

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 13:29

Between 1961 and 1985 no-one retained their title. 

 

Twice we have had a streak of 7 seasons with unique champions.

 

1964-1970 (Surtees, Clark, Brabham, Hulme, G.Hill, Stewart, Rindt)

1976-1982 (Hunt, Lauda, Andretti, Scheckter, Jones, Piquet, Rosberg)

 

The closest one from recent decades is a 5-year-streak of 2006-2010 (Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Vettel).

 

Longest streak for unique constructors' champions is 4 from the early days: 1960-1963 (Cooper, Ferrari, BRM, Lotus).

In terms of drivers' championships for constructors it is 5 from the same mentioned 2006-2010 streak (Renault, Ferrari, McLaren, Brawn, Red Bull).



#5266 Atreiu

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 13:30

Because they ditched most of them after winning title.

They ditched Piquet after 1987 title, Mansell after 1992 title, Prost after 1993 title and Hill after 1996 title.

All of them except for Piquet in 1988 could have won another title if they would have been retained for another season

Mansell would easily win again in 1993 and Hill in 1997

In this scenario Prost and Villeneuve would never happen and Williams' list of champions would look more "normal"

Nothing against Prost and Villeneuve. Term "normal" is related to fewer champions and some of them repeated.

 

I don't agree about 1993.

 

1992 was a complete outlier and Prost was returning in 1993. Mansell pulled a Rosberg before Rosberg and bolted out the door ASAP. He surely remembered being driven to retirment in 1990 (and then changing his mind).

 

Also, even without Prost, Mansell would have tripped over himself as usual in 93 as soon as Hill, Schumacher and Senna put up a fight. And I think it would have been even harsher for him the moment Hill became the press' underdog darling and Mansell would suffer his "me against the world feelings".


Edited by Atreiu, 03 September 2019 - 13:32.


#5267 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 14:04

So in our if-only-Frank-wasn't-so-harsh alternative universe Damon is 3x WDC (93, 96, 97)! Well done :)

#5268 Spillage

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 14:12

To be fair to Frank Williams, his team has given ten drivers their first victory, somewhat vindicating his driver policy over the year.

 

Charles Leclerc was the 24th driver to win their first WDC GP whilst driving a Ferrari. Despite Ferrari's reputation for preferring established talent to youthful promise, no other team has given anywhere near as many drivers their first victory:

 

24 - Ferrari - Gonzalez, Ascari, Taruffi, Hawthorn, Trintignant, Musso, Collins, Hill, von Trips, Baghetti, Surtees, Bandini, Scarfiotti, Ickx, Regazzoni, Andretti, Lauda, Villeneuve, Tambay, Alesi, Irvine, Barrichello, Massa, Leclerc

10 - Williams - Rosberg, Mansell, Boutsen, Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Frentzen, Schumacher, Montoya, Maldonado

8 - Lotus - Ireland, Clark, Rindt, Fittipaldi, Peterson, Nilsson, De Angelis, Senna

6 - Mclaren - Revson, Mass, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Kovalainen

5 - BRM - Bonnier, Hill, Stewart, Gethin, Beltoise

5 - Brabham - Hulme, Reutemann, Pace, Piquet, Patrese

5 - Renault - Jabouille, Arnoux, Prost, Alonso, Trulli

4 - Tyrrell - Cevert, Scheckter, Depailler, Alboreto

4 -  Benetton - Berger, Nannini, Schumacher, Herbert

3 - Alfa Romeo - Farina, Fangio, Fagioli

3 - Mercedes - Moss, Rosberg, Bottas

3 - Cooper - Brabham, Mclaren, Rodriguez

3 - Ligier - Laffite, Pironi, Panis

3 - Red Bull - Webber, Ricciardo, Verstappen

2 - Honda - Ginther, Button

1 - Vanwall - Brooks

1 - Porsche - Gurney

1 - Rob Walker - Siffert*

1 - Hesketh - Hunt

1 - March - Brambilla

1 - Penske - Watson

1 - Shadow - Jones

1 - Jordan - Fisichella

1 - BMW Sauber - Kubica

1 - Toro Rosso - Vettel

 

*Siffert's win for Rob Walker was in a Lotus.


Edited by Spillage, 03 September 2019 - 15:52.


#5269 SenorSjon

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 14:16

You could also say Alonso/Trulli was from the 'Benetton' era of Renault, so they go from 4 to 6 drivers?



#5270 Spillage

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 14:35

You could, yes, but that opens a can of worms as to where one team ends and another begins. You could probably add Button, N Rosberg and Bottas to Tyrrell on those grounds too!


Edited by Spillage, 03 September 2019 - 14:35.


#5271 PayasYouRace

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 14:39

You could also say Alonso/Trulli was from the 'Benetton' era of Renault, so they go from 4 to 6 drivers?

 

I don't know why you'd say that.



#5272 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 14:46

Not sure about Damon in 97, as much as I love the guy it would have been close against JV with extra year of experience and MS with improved Ferrari.


JV was underperforming in 1997. His head was in the clouds. His mind was set on dying hair (anybody know the reason why he died his hair???) and grunge music.

Hill would beat him easily in 1997

#5273 PayasYouRace

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 14:52

JV was underperforming in 1997. His head was in the clouds. His mind was set on dying hair (anybody know the reason why he died his hair???) and grunge music.

Hill would beat him easily in 1997

 

Would Jacques have "underperformed" in 1997 if he still had access to Damon's experience and the increased competition? We can't say. I'm not even sure Jacques actually was underperforming. Williams certainly underperformed. They lost two of their biggest keys to success in the previous seasons. Damon and Adrian Newey. So the team made a number of errors that Adrian and Damon wouldn't have made othewise, like starting both cars on slicks in wet races.

 

You're focusing on superficial things and drawing a conclusion you can't possibly do from them.



#5274 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 14:52

JV was underperforming in 1997. His head was in the clouds. His mind was set on dying hair (anybody know the reason why he died his hair???) and grunge music.

Hill would beat him easily in 1997

10 pole positions and 7 wins when he couldn't be arsed... I always thought he was sensational in his prime but perhaps even I underestimated that talent!

As for the hair dye, he wanted to know how it felt to be blonde? They have more fun after all.

#5275 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 15:11

10 pole positions and 7 wins when he couldn't be arsed... I always thought he was sensational in his prime but perhaps even I underestimated that talent!

As for the hair dye, he wanted to know how it felt to be blonde? They have more fun after all.


He is blonde even without dying his hair. He has blue eyes and natural greyish hair that combination classifies as natural blonde.

#5276 milestone 11

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 15:30

I mentioned it as the very first guess, but must be on everyone's ignore list.


Not at all but your previous moniker carried substantial weight round these parts.

#5277 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 15:45


(etc)

4 - Ligier - Laffite, Depailler, Pironi, Panis

3 - Tyrrell - Cevert, Scheckter, Alboreto

(etc)


Depailler’s first win was in a Tyrrell. I was there to see it.  ;)

#5278 Spillage

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 15:50

You're quite right - my mistake. I've rectified that now. 



#5279 milestone 11

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 16:00

To be fair to Frank Williams, his team has given ten drivers their first victory, somewhat vindicating his driver policy over the year.

Charles Leclerc was the 24th driver to win their first WDC GP whilst driving a Ferrari. Despite Ferrari's reputation for preferring established talent to youthful promise, no other team has given anywhere near as many drivers their first victory:

24 - Ferrari - Gonzalez, Ascari, Taruffi, Hawthorn, Trintignant, Musso, Collins, Hill, von Trips, Baghetti, Surtees, Bandini, Scarfiotti, Ickx, Regazzoni, Andretti, Lauda, Villeneuve, Tambay, Alesi, Irvine, Barrichello, Massa, Leclerc
10 - Williams - Rosberg, Mansell, Boutsen, Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Frentzen, Schumacher, Montoya, Maldonado
8 - Lotus - Ireland, Clark, Rindt, Fittipaldi, Peterson, Nilsson, De Angelis, Senna
6 - Mclaren - Revson, Mass, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Kovalainen
5 - BRM - Bonnier, Hill, Stewart, Gethin, Beltoise
5 - Brabham - Hulme, Reutemann, Pace, Piquet, Patrese
5 - Renault - Jabouille, Arnoux, Prost, Alonso, Trulli
4 - Tyrrell - Cevert, Scheckter, Depailler, Alboreto
4 - Benetton - Berger, Nannini, Schumacher, Herbert
3 - Alfa Romeo - Farina, Fangio, Fagioli
3 - Mercedes - Moss, Rosberg, Bottas
3 - Cooper - Brabham, Mclaren, Rodriguez
3 - Ligier - Laffite, Pironi, Panis
3 - Red Bull - Webber, Ricciardo, Verstappen
2 - Honda - Ginther, Button
1 - Vanwall - Brooks
1 - Porsche - Gurney
1 - Rob Walker - Siffert*
1 - Hesketh - Hunt
1 - March - Brambilla
1 - Penske - Watson
1 - Shadow - Jones
1 - Jordan - Fisichella
1 - BMW Sauber - Kubica
1 - Toro Rosso - Vettel

*Siffert's win for Rob Walker was in a Lotus.

There are 10 missing unless my maths are up the swannee.
Edit
OK, Indy 500 winners when they were classified GP's?

Edited by milestone 11, 03 September 2019 - 16:12.


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#5280 Currahee

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 16:09

To be fair to Frank Williams, his team has given ten drivers their first victory, somewhat vindicating his driver policy over the year.

Charles Leclerc was the 24th driver to win their first WDC GP whilst driving a Ferrari. Despite Ferrari's reputation for preferring established talent to youthful promise, no other team has given anywhere near as many drivers their first victory:

24 - Ferrari - Gonzalez, Ascari, Taruffi, Hawthorn, Trintignant, Musso, Collins, Hill, von Trips, Baghetti, Surtees, Bandini, Scarfiotti, Ickx, Regazzoni, Andretti, Lauda, Villeneuve, Tambay, Alesi, Irvine, Barrichello, Massa, Leclerc
10 - Williams - Rosberg, Mansell, Boutsen, Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Frentzen, Schumacher, Montoya, Maldonado
8 - Lotus - Ireland, Clark, Rindt, Fittipaldi, Peterson, Nilsson, De Angelis, Senna
6 - Mclaren - Revson, Mass, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Kovalainen
5 - BRM - Bonnier, Hill, Stewart, Gethin, Beltoise
5 - Brabham - Hulme, Reutemann, Pace, Piquet, Patrese
5 - Renault - Jabouille, Arnoux, Prost, Alonso, Trulli
4 - Tyrrell - Cevert, Scheckter, Depailler, Alboreto
4 - Benetton - Berger, Nannini, Schumacher, Herbert
3 - Alfa Romeo - Farina, Fangio, Fagioli
3 - Mercedes - Moss, Rosberg, Bottas
3 - Cooper - Brabham, Mclaren, Rodriguez
3 - Ligier - Laffite, Pironi, Panis
3 - Red Bull - Webber, Ricciardo, Verstappen
2 - Honda - Ginther, Button
1 - Vanwall - Brooks
1 - Porsche - Gurney
1 - Rob Walker - Siffert*
1 - Hesketh - Hunt
1 - March - Brambilla
1 - Penske - Watson
1 - Shadow - Jones
1 - Jordan - Fisichella
1 - BMW Sauber - Kubica
1 - Toro Rosso - Vettel

*Siffert's win for Rob Walker was in a Lotus.


If you had to pick 2 drivers from the same team of 1st winners who would you pick?

Me personally i'd go with Lotus. Clark and Senna. With Rindt and Peterson in reserve. A mighty fine team that.

#5281 ensign14

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 16:17

To be fair to Frank Williams, his team has given ten drivers their first victory, somewhat vindicating his driver policy over the year.

 

Charles Leclerc was the 24th driver to win their first WDC GP whilst driving a Ferrari. Despite Ferrari's reputation for preferring established talent to youthful promise, no other team has given anywhere near as many drivers their first victory:

 

24 - Ferrari - Gonzalez, Ascari, Taruffi, Hawthorn, Trintignant, Musso, Collins, Hill, von Trips, Baghetti, Surtees, Bandini, Scarfiotti, Ickx, Regazzoni, Andretti, Lauda, Villeneuve, Tambay, Alesi, Irvine, Barrichello, Massa, Leclerc

 

23 for the Scuderia, 1 for FISA [Federazione Italiana Scuderie Automobilistiche, or Italian Federation of Automobile Teams] (Baghetti). 



#5282 Spillage

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 16:26

There are 10 missing unless my maths are up the swannee.
Edit
OK, Indy 500 winners when they were classified GP's?

Yeah, sorry, I should have said I didn't count the Indy 500s. it's entirely possible that I've missed one or two F1 drivers as well. 


Edited by Spillage, 03 September 2019 - 16:26.


#5283 milestone 11

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 16:29

Yeah, sorry, I should have said I didn't count the Indy 500s. it's entirely possible that I've missed one or two F1 drivers as well.

I don't think you have. :up:

#5284 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 17:01

23 for the Scuderia, 1 for FISA [Federazione Italiana Scuderie Automobilistiche, or Italian Federation of Automobile Teams] (Baghetti).


Arguable. FISA was the official entrant, but the car was actually run by Scuderia Ferrari and tended by Ferrari mechanics as part of their team.

#5285 lustigson

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 18:39

Useless trivia:

Ferrari won their 100th World Championship Grand Prix during 1990. They then had three seasons without a win.

McLaren won their 100th WC GP during 1993. They then had three seasons without a win.

Williams won their 100th WC GP during 1997. They then had three seasons without a win.

 

Wow, that's weird!



#5286 Hati

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 19:01

So, is there some promising young driver whose last name starts with 'Fa' that Alfa should be looking for?



#5287 Myrvold

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 19:18

Wow, that's weird!

Would've been even weirder if Williams' 100th win was one year earlier!



#5288 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 20:45

So, is there some promising young driver whose last name starts with 'Fa' that Alfa should be looking for?


Sentino Farrucci?

#5289 Spillage

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 21:34

I think it was Christopher Hilton who wrote that their names read like a line of poetry but the men themselves were all chisel-jawed, middle-aged and balding :p

#5290 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 07:22

Yeah, sorry, I should have said I didn't count the Indy 500s. it's entirely possible that I've missed one or two F1 drivers as well.


Not in the mood to count them right now but then we would have had primarily Kurtis-Kraft, Belond and Watson for constructors added to the list.
Quick rundown: Belond, 2 (Hanks, Bryan) and Watson 3 (Flaherty, Ward and Rathman). Kurtis-Kraft 4 (Parsons, Wallard, Vukovich and Bob Schweikert) and Kuzma (Ruttman)

#5291 Taxi

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 10:01

If you had to pick 2 drivers from the same team of 1st winners who would you pick?

Me personally i'd go with Lotus. Clark and Senna. With Rindt and Peterson in reserve. A mighty fine team that.

 

Hamilton and Mika from Mclaren hould be mighty too. Or Prost/Alonso in the Renault, 



#5292 Grayson

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 10:42

Hamilton won the Canadian and US GP within a week in 2007.

 

Since this is the crazy statistics thread, here's a slightly meaningless one that is based on a quirk of the calendar...

 

Those wins mean that Hamilton holds the record for the shortest gap between first and second race victories - 7 days.

 

Leclerc has a chance to match that record this weekend!



#5293 7MGTEsup

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 13:53

I do not think any sane parent would name his/her child after a person who died young of a violent death.

 

What has that to do with giving someone a name? If that was the case a lot of names would be off limits....



#5294 M66R

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 14:03

Heinz Harold Frentzen scored the original Sauber team's first and last podiums 8 years apart.

#5295 7MGTEsup

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 14:04

Leclerc on pole with 0.7 seconds!

When did the pole setter have such a huge advantage last time?

And what was the biggest ever advantage?

 

I would think in the modern era Mansell at Spa in 1992 must be in with a shout at 2.198 seconds.



#5296 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 14:20

Heinz Harold Frentzen scored the original Sauber team's first and last podiums 8 years apart.

This has probably been mentioned but Gerhard Berger got Benetton's first (1986) and last (1997) win.

#5297 sopa

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 14:33

I would think in the modern era Mansell at Spa in 1992 must be in with a shout at 2.198 seconds.

 

And that's on Senna.

Mansell's team-mate Patrese was a whooping 3.012 seconds behind. Mind-boggling.



#5298 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 14:46

What has that to do with giving someone a name? If that was the case a lot of names would be off limits....


Would you name your own son "Ayrton" while knowing what happened to original Ayrton?

#5299 7MGTEsup

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 14:47

Unfortunately, no statistics before 1996. But surely, all of them were named for Senna. Including some who want to start their own career.

 

Interesting that there was an upturn in 2010 which was about the time Top Gear did there bit on him and Hamilton drove the MP4/4....



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#5300 7MGTEsup

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 14:49

Would you name your own son "Ayrton" while knowing what happened to original Ayrton?

 

There are 2 problems with that, first I don't like the name even though I was a fan and second I have a daughter......