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#5501 John B

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 00:08

Historically Mansell was DQed twice in 1989, though Canada was a case of stewarding incompetence IIRC....

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#5502 PayasYouRace

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 07:39

Historically Mansell was DQed twice in 1989, though Canada was a case of stewarding incompetence IIRC....

Matched by Michael Schumacher in 1994.



#5503 Collombin

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 08:10

Keke was DQed from back to back Brazilian GPs. As pointed out though, I'm sure the original comment was just in relation to current drivers.

#5504 SpaceHorseParty

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 10:20

In 2004, Montoya was disqualified from two races in a row: Canada for brake irregularities and USA for switching to t-car too late.

Curiously, he was also disqualified from the 2005 Canadian Grand Prix for exiting pits under a red light. As he did not start the 2005 USGP, he could not be DQd from that one.



#5505 sopa

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 16:58

In 2004, Montoya was disqualified from two races in a row: Canada for brake irregularities and USA for switching to t-car too late.

Curiously, he was also disqualified from the 2005 Canadian Grand Prix for exiting pits under a red light. As he did not start the 2005 USGP, he could not be DQd from that one.

 

And Montoya crashed in both Canadian and US Grands Prix in 2006. So these places didn't really work out for him.



#5506 HistoryFan

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 16:59

Drivers with the most disqualifications:

 

Stefan Bellof 11

Martin Brundle 9

Stefan Johansson 4

Takuma Sato 4

Elio de Angelis 3

Niki Lauda 3

Nigel Mansell 3

Juan Pablo Montoya 3

Mika Salo 3

Ayrton Senna 3

John Watson 3

Manfred Winkelhock 3



#5507 PayasYouRace

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 17:09

Drivers with the most disqualifications:

 

Stefan Bellof 11

Martin Brundle 9

 

 

I think that's a but unfair as I'd consider the Tyrrell 1984 to be a single disqualification.



#5508 Clatter

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 17:31

After Renault's brake bias fiasco, Ricciardo becomes the only driver on the grid to have been disqualified from a Grand Prix twice throughout their F1 career.

 


Does the brake bias ruling count as a DQ against the driver? It was the car that was DQ'd. not the driver.

#5509 TheFish

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 22:09

We must be getting fairly close to Lewis’ longest streak without a pole? What’s his record for that?

#5510 Jerem

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 00:24

We must be getting fairly close to Lewis’ longest streak without a pole? What’s his record for that?

26 between Canada 2010 and Korea 2011. Still a looong way to go! 



#5511 Bleu

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 08:52

Unless I missed some events where grid penalties were handed, yesterday was first time since European GP 2003 where three teams were within 0.1 seconds on top of the qualifying.

 

Sometimes top 3 has been covered by that gap, but in those cases it has included team-mates (like Silverstone where top 3 was Bottas-Hamilton-Leclerc)



#5512 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:01

Assuming HAM doesn't claim any further poles this season, when was the last time a world champion didn't have the most or second most poles? Leclerc and Bottas have more poles this season.



#5513 PayasYouRace

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:19

Assuming HAM doesn't claim any further poles this season, when was the last time a world champion didn't have the most or second most poles? Leclerc and Bottas have more poles this season.

 

Raikkonen in 2007. He had the third most poles, 3, behind Hamilton and Massa on 6 each.

 

Others are:

 

Schumacher in 1995. He had 4 poles. Hill and Coulthard had 7 and 5 respectively.

Prost in 1986. He had 1 pole, joint fifth best with Rosberg. Senna had 8, while Mansell, Piquet and Fabi had 2 each.

Lauda in 1984. He had no poles that year.

Piquet in 1983. 1 pole put him joint fourth with Rosberg, Patrese and de Angelis. Arnoux and Tambay had 4 each and Post had 3.

Rosberg in 1982. 1 pole, joint fourth with de Cesaris, Andretti and Piquet. Prost and Arnoux had 5 each and Pironi had 2.

Scheckter in 1979. 1 pole again, joint fifth with Villeneuve. Laffite and Jabouille had 4 each, Jones 3 and Arnoux 2.

Lauda in 1977. 2 poles put him third. Andretti had 7 and Hunt 6.

Rindt in 1970. Third best with 3. Ickx and Stewart had 4 each.

Hulme in 1967. He had no poles that year.

Brabham in 1959. 1 pole put him joint third with Bonnier. Moss had 4 and Brooks had 2.

 

That's happened more times that I expected.



#5514 M66R

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 09:57

The championship has only gone down to the final race 4 times in the last 10 years. It has been 7 years since drivers from different teams fought for the championship down to the wire.

#5515 Collombin

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 10:37

The championship has only gone down to the final race 4 times in the last 10 years.


Considering how many races there are on the calendar these days that doesn't sound too bad to me - more than I might have expected actually.

#5516 TheFish

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 00:22

Considering how many races there are on the calendar these days that doesn't sound too bad to me - more than I might have expected actually.


How does it compare to previous decades?

#5517 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 08:10

How does it compare to previous decades?


1950s: 5/10
1960s: 4/10
1970s: 2/10
1980s: 5/10
1990s: 5/10
2000s: 4/10
2010s: 4/10

Seems about average. Also seems ironic that the ultra-competitive 1970s only had 2 final race showdowns in 1974 and 1976. I wonder if that was down to the split season scoring system of the time?

#5518 Kalmake

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 08:40

Seems about average. Also seems ironic that the ultra-competitive 1970s only had 2 final race showdowns in 1974 and 1976. I wonder if that was down to the split season scoring system of the time?

78 and 79 would have been close if not for team orders.



#5519 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 10:39

78 and 79 would have been close if not for team orders.

This is not uncontroversial though. Peterson was generally slower than Andretti and the thing about team orders comes from the assumption that Peterson was in fact the faster driver so he must have been subject to team orders.

In 1979, this hinges on the assumption that Villeneuve could have overtaken Scheckter at Monza.

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#5520 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 10:52


Not a statistic that is certain yet, next year we'll see if it was a different one.

Lewis' titles come in a certain rhythm.

His first was a `stand alone` (2007)
Second and third came as a set (2014&2015)
fourth, fifth and sixth as a trio (2017,2018,2019)

Now there are two options for `what's next`.

First: the string will be broken before a new sequence of titles, whatever the string that might become, can start.

More likely however: the rhythm isn't "one more with every string" but "doubliing up the previous string".
It is "1,2,3" right now but I think that within a year or thereabout it turned out to be a "1,2,4"

#5521 SpaceHorseParty

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 11:20

Hamilton now holds the record for the longest span of time between first and last title (12 years from 2008 to 2019). He used to share this record with Schumacher, who has a span of 11 years (1994 to 2004).

 

Previous record holders:

  • Niki Lauda, 10 years (1975–1984)
  • Jack Brabham, 8 years (1959–1966)
  • Juan Manuel Fangio, 7 years (1951–1957)
  • Alberto Ascari, 2 years (1952–1953)


#5522 DeKnyff

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 12:18

Seems about average. Also seems ironic that the ultra-competitive 1970s only had 2 final race showdowns in 1974 and 1976. I wonder if that was down to the split season scoring system of the time?

 

Over one complete season, the reliability of the bulletproof flat 12 Ferrari ensured "easy" titles in 1975, 1977 and 1979, even if in a race by race basis there was a fierce competition.



#5523 DeKnyff

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 12:24

78 and 79 would have been close if not for team orders.

And in a certain way, also in 1973, when Peterson and Fittipaldi were constantly battling each other but Cevert always appeared right behind Stewart. Maybe not team orders in the sense we understand now (an order from the pit to move aside), but a previous arrangement for a stablished 1-2 order.



#5524 Dratini

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 12:47

Considering how many races there are on the calendar these days that doesn't sound too bad to me - more than I might have expected actually.

Obviously it cannot work this way, but even if each of these seasons were only 17 races long, and we simply removed all races which came after that threshold, the rate would still be four out of 10 down-to-the-wire seasons.

As an aside, barring a DNF, Hamilton looks all but certain to break the record for most points scored in a single season. Currently on 381, he needs just 28 points to surpass the mark of 408 points which he set last season.



#5525 Glengavel

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 13:22

And in a certain way, also in 1973, when Peterson and Fittipaldi were constantly battling each other but Cevert always appeared right behind Stewart. Maybe not team orders in the sense we understand now (an order from the pit to move aside), but a previous arrangement for a stablished 1-2 order.


There were only three races in 1973 where Fittipaldi and Peterson both finished in the points. It wasn't each other they were battling, it was the Lotus 72's chronic unreliability.

#5526 TheFish

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 14:13

At the end of 2013, Hamilton had 1 title and 22 wins to his name. Vettel had 4 titles and 39 wins.

 

Now it's 6 and 83 against 4 and 53. It's amazing how things have changed in the past 6 years.



#5527 noikeee

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 14:32

At the end of 2013, Hamilton had 1 title and 22 wins to his name. Vettel had 4 titles and 39 wins.

Now it's 6 and 83 against 4 and 53. It's amazing how things have changed in the past 6 years.

It's almost as if we had a few years completely dominated by Red Bull and then a few years even more dominated by Mercedes.

I do think Hamilton is a better driver than Vettel and deserves more championships, though. It could've been 6-4 the other way around had Vettel driven like Hamilton and Hamilton driven like Vettel in 2017-2018.

Edited by noikeee, 04 November 2019 - 14:33.


#5528 cheekybru

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 14:34

Since it's championship week could someone possibly do

Titles won / seasons entered %

Top 5 or ten

Please? :)

#5529 DeKnyff

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 15:47

Since it's championship week could someone possibly do

Titles won / seasons entered %

Top 5 or ten

Please? :)

Drivers having won three or more titles (only complete or almost complete seasons)

 

Fangio: 5/8 (63%)

Schumacher: 7/15 (47%)

Hamilton: 6/13 (46%)

Stewart: 3/9 (33%)

Vettel: 4/12 (33%)

Prost: 4/13 (31%)

Senna: 3/10 (30%)

Lauda: 3/12 (25%)

Piquet: 3/13 (23%)

Brabham: 3/14 (21%)


Edited by DeKnyff, 04 November 2019 - 15:51.


#5530 hollowstar

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 15:49

Drivers having won three or more titles (only complete or almost complete seasons)

Fangio: 5/8 (63%)
Schumacher: 7/15 (47%)
Hamilton: 6/13 (46%)
Vettel: 4/12 (33%)
Prost: 4/13 (31%)
Senna: 3/10 (30%)
Lauda: 3/12 (25%)
Piquet: 3/13 (23%)
Brabham: 3/14 (21%)

7/17 is actually 41%

Edit: oops, just saw it was actually 7/15 so that percentage must be right.

Edited by hollowstar, 04 November 2019 - 15:50.


#5531 DeKnyff

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 15:55

7/17 is actually 41%

Edit: oops, just saw it was actually 7/15 so that percentage must be right.

Yup. I also added Stewart.



#5532 cheekybru

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 16:25

Thank you kindly DeKnyff :)

#5533 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 17:59

Raikkonen in 2007. He had the third most poles, 3, behind Hamilton and Massa on 6 each.

Others are:

Schumacher in 1995. He had 4 poles. Hill and Coulthard had 7 and 5 respectively.
Prost in 1986. He had 1 pole, joint fifth best with Rosberg. Senna had 8, while Mansell, Piquet and Fabi had 2 each.
Lauda in 1984. He had no poles that year.
Piquet in 1983. 1 pole put him joint fourth with Rosberg, Patrese and de Angelis. Arnoux and Tambay had 4 each and Post had 3.
Rosberg in 1982. 1 pole, joint fourth with de Cesaris, Andretti and Piquet. Prost and Arnoux had 5 each and Pironi had 2.
Scheckter in 1979. 1 pole again, joint fifth with Villeneuve. Laffite and Jabouille had 4 each, Jones 3 and Arnoux 2.
Lauda in 1977. 2 poles put him third. Andretti had 7 and Hunt 6.
Rindt in 1970. Third best with 3. Ickx and Stewart had 4 each.
Hulme in 1967. He had no poles that year.
Brabham in 1959. 1 pole put him joint third with Bonnier. Moss had 4 and Brooks had 2.

That's happened more times that I expected.


Yeah, well back in the day races weren’t a foregone conclusion after qualifying. In particular during the turbo era, where drivers were effectively qualifying a car from a different formula.

#5534 D28

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 20:25

Yeah, well back in the day races weren’t a foregone conclusion after qualifying. In particular during the turbo era, where drivers were effectively qualifying a car from a different formula.

Denis Hulme didn't worry too much about pole, he won 8 GPs and a WDC but only 1 pole ever.



#5535 Fatgadget

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 20:28

Denis Hulme didn't worry too much about pole, he won 8 GPs and a WDC but only 1 pole ever.

Different era. Pole wasn't a pre requisite winning races back then..



#5536 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 22:15

Different era. Pole wasn't a pre requisite winning races back then..

 

It still isn't. Verstappen was doing pretty good job of racking up the wins without a single pole.



#5537 Wifey

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 22:47

It still isn't. Verstappen was doing pretty good job of racking up the wins without a single pole.

 

If i read correctly in this thread Hamilton has won more races not from pole this year then Verstappen has in his career. This is not a negative post just a funny stat in relation to the above.



#5538 Dratini

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 23:26

It still isn't. Verstappen was doing pretty good job of racking up the wins without a single pole.

Since the start of the 2010 season exactly half the races have been won from pole, interestingly. Even if the final two races of this season are won by the polesitter, the pole-to-win conversion rate for the season will be the lowest of any season between 2010-19 (currently at 31.58%).



#5539 Spillage

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 23:52

Interestingly Denny Hulme never won a race from pole, finishing fifth in the 1973 South African GP, the only race at which he took pole.

I don't think Keke Rosberg ever won from pole either. Are they the only world champions for whom this is true?

Edited by Spillage, 04 November 2019 - 23:53.


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#5540 TheFish

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 07:48

I’m Not sure, but given Hill and Hawthorn only won a few races each I’d say they’re the only possible other options

#5541 ensign14

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 08:05

Phil Hill's first WC win was a hat-trick - and Hawthorn's last was a Grand Chelem.



#5542 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 08:32

Pretty impressive to Grand Slam at Reims.

#5543 Aaaarrgghh

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 11:40

Pretty impressive to Grand Slam at Reims.

Yes, although it still counts as a Grand Slam if he lost the lead at the first hairpin every lap and then reclaimed it at the second one. So it doesn't necessarily mean that he held the lead for the entire GP. :)



#5544 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 11:47

Yes, although it still counts as a Grand Slam if he lost the lead at the first hairpin every lap and then reclaimed it at the second one. So it doesn't necessarily mean that he held the lead for the entire GP. :)


Did his race run like that?

#5545 SenorSjon

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 12:37

So with two events to go, will Hulkenberg keep the title of no of races without a podium finish?



#5546 Aaaarrgghh

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 13:50

Did his race run like that?


No, it was just to show how a Grand Slam could be less impressive than it seems.

In this case, it seems he was very close to leading the entire race distance. Schell led until the back straight on the first lap. Beyond that, my guess is thay the ones beyond Hawthorn battled so much that he could pull out a bit of a gap. The track wasn't very difficult (compared to others), so I assume that the Ferrari also had a fair bit of advantage with regards to straight line speed as well. Still, he got the job done.


Edited by Aaaarrgghh, 05 November 2019 - 13:53.


#5547 DeKnyff

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 14:37

Phil Hill's first WC win was a hat-trick - and Hawthorn's last was a Grand Chelem.

Well, Phil Hill's first win at the 1960 Italian GP might have been a hat-trick, but it was completely meaningless, since Cooper and Lotus (the two leading teams) didn't take part because of the use of Monza's dangerous oval. If we compare it to current times, it was as if Verstappen won a race where Mercedes and Ferrari didn't show: of course you would expect him to take pole, win and FL.

 

That said, the Italian GP of 1960 is highly relevant in statistics for another thing: it was the last win in Formula 1 of a front-engined car.



#5548 Tim Murray

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 15:21

That said, the Italian GP of 1960 is highly relevant in statistics for another thing: it was the last win in Formula 1 of a front-engined car.


1961 Oulton Park Gold Cup  ;) :)

#5549 DeKnyff

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 16:24

1961 Oulton Park Gold Cup  ;) :)

Corrected for you:

 

That said, the Italian GP of 1960 is highly relevant in statistics for another thing: it was the last win in the Formula 1 World Championship of a front-engined car.

:stoned:  



#5550 Spillage

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 16:25

Thought it might be interesting to see the poles per win ratio of the world champions, which might help us analyse their relative strengths as qualifiers and racers:

 

Hulme - 0.13 poles per win

Scheckter - 0.3 

Fittipaldi - 0.43

Jones - 0.5

Button - 0.53 

Stewart - 0.63

Prost - 0.65

Alonso - 0.69 

Schumacher - 0.75

Fangio - 0.83 

Räikkönen - 0.86 

D Hill - 0.91 

Brabham - 0.93

G Hill - 0.93 

Lauda - 0.96

Farina - 1 

K Rosberg - 1

Mansell - 1.03

Piquet - 1.04

Hamilton - 1.05

Vettel - 1.08

Ascari - 1.08

Villeneuve - 1.18

Häkkinen - 1.30

N Rosberg - 1.30

Clark - 1.32

Hawthorn - 1.33

Surtees - 1.33

Hunt - 1.40

Andretti - 1.50

Senna - 1.59

Rindt - 1.67

P Hill - 2

 

So we can see it's a pretty even split - 15 of the 33 world champions won more races than they had pole positions and 16 had more poles than wins. Nino Farina and Keke Rosberg both took the same number of poles as they did race wins - interesting in Keke's case because, as discussed earlier in the thread, he never won a race from pole position. 

 

Obviously this analysis isn't a true representation of whether a driver was a better qualifier or racer because it doesn't take into account the car they were driving. It's no surprise to see several drivers who enjoyed success in Chapman's notoriously fast but fragile Lotuses towards the bottom of this list. It does make for a startling contrast between Fittipaldi and the rest, though.


Edited by Spillage, 05 November 2019 - 16:27.