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#101 Marklar

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 18:13

In 2011 Massa placed 6th in the WDC without scoring a podium all season. I wonder if that's the highest placed ?

Yep, alongside with Kubica in 2007

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#102 Atreiu

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 18:15

In 2001 Sch had 2 retirements and Rubens 4, but Mika and Ralf had 7, Trulli had 9, Irvine and Juan had 11. I haven't checked to see how many of those were technical or not, but a lot of people retired that year. Monaco had 9 technical GNF's, Germany 8.

 

 

You're right, but retirement statistics are always boosted by midfielders and markers. But Schumacher rarely ever drove for them so there is no reason to consider them in this context. For example, comparing Schumacher's 2001 Ferrari to Trulli's 2001 Jordan makes little sense. One team was in sharp decline, the other was reaching its historical peak.

 

6-7 per season was a thing for top teams and drivers only until the 80s. Just look at all WDCs from 1990 until today, none had more than 3 mechanical DNFs.

 

Schumacher arrived at a time top teams began to finally eliminate reliability woes. We can only guess what other drivers would have done if their unreliability rate was cut to 15% or so. :p



#103 Dan333SP

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 18:24

I wonder what the record is for closest ever grid, or perhaps closest top 10-15?

 

I was just looking at Brazil 2003 in Wikipedia. That race featured none of the top 3 in the correct podium spot after the race. Alonso crashed  from 3rd and couldn't make the podium, the red flag moved the official finish back a couple laps, which caused the confusion between Fisi and Kimi with the win being given to Kimi and then back to Fisi following a protest.

 

The other notable thing about that event for me is how close the grid was. Barrichello's pole time was 1.032 seconds faster than Panis in 15th, and the top 4 were separated by .059. That would be close on an oval in a spec series, much less a road course with 3 different makes of car in the top 4.
 

The top 10 were covered by just over half a second, and 1 second covered the top 13. Justin Wilson :cry: was last on the grid, 2.779 seconds behind.

 

I know the top 3 at Jerez '97 had identical times, but I don't think I can recall such a tight grid overall. I guess it makes sense that it would happen at one of the shortest circuits on the calendar.



#104 Tsarwash

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 18:41

You're right, but retirement statistics are always boosted by midfielders and markers. But Schumacher rarely ever drove for them so there is no reason to consider them in this context. For example, comparing Schumacher's 2001 Ferrari to Trulli's 2001 Jordan makes little sense. One team was in sharp decline, the other was reaching its historical peak.

 

6-7 per season was a thing for top teams and drivers only until the 80s. Just look at all WDCs from 1990 until today, none had more than 3 mechanical DNFs.

 

Schumacher arrived at a time top teams began to finally eliminate reliability woes. We can only guess what other drivers would have done if their unreliability rate was cut to 15% or so. :p

Well it's a truism that the teams finishing near the top didn't tend to have that many DNF's. In fact in the 80's there were not many seasons where the top runners had more than four a piece. 1981, top three guys had, 4, 3 and three. 86 was 3 (or 4), 4 and 4. Some other seasons were worse of course. Rock-solid reliability was what gave Schu a big advantage over many of his rivals. 



#105 superdelphinus

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 21:03

True, but for 12 years - 1958 to 1969 - the WDC were all English speakers.

AFAIK no driver called Smith has ever raced in F1.


Has their ever been a world champion that couldn't speak English?

#106 superdelphinus

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 21:08

Well it's a truism that the teams finishing near the top didn't tend to have that many DNF's. In fact in the 80's there were not many seasons where the top runners had more than four a piece. 1981, top three guys had, 4, 3 and three. 86 was 3 (or 4), 4 and 4. Some other seasons were worse of course. Rock-solid reliability was what gave Schu a big advantage over many of his rivals.


Yes. I think for vettel or Hamilton to break any of schumacher's records (apart from the pole one perhaps) they need 5 years of rock solid machinery AND a pace advantage. Hamilton is two years into something that could be like that but I don't think f1 stays the same for that long anymore. Anyway I'm really hoping vetted and Hamilton have pretty equal machinery in the next couple of seasons, that will be worth far more than one of them breaking some borked records.

#107 Collombin

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 21:29

Has their ever been a world champion that couldn't speak English?


Fangio for one I believe.

#108 Rob G

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 01:53

Yep, alongside with Kubica in 2007

Interestingly, Kubica scored four 4th places while Massa's best was half a dozen 5ths.



#109 George Costanza

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 04:34

Farina probably couldn't speak English I bet.



#110 Zava

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 05:51

I wonder what the record is for closest ever grid, or perhaps closest top 10-15?

I was just looking at Brazil 2003 in Wikipedia. That race featured none of the top 3 in the correct podium spot after the race. Alonso crashed from 3rd and couldn't make the podium, the red flag moved the official finish back a couple laps, which caused the confusion between Fisi and Kimi with the win being given to Kimi and then back to Fisi following a protest.

The other notable thing about that event for me is how close the grid was. Barrichello's pole time was 1.032 seconds faster than Panis in 15th, and the top 4 were separated by .059. That would be close on an oval in a spec series, much less a road course with 3 different makes of car in the top 4.

The top 10 were covered by just over half a second, and 1 second covered the top 13. Justin Wilson :cry: was last on the grid, 2.779 seconds behind.

I know the top 3 at Jerez '97 had identical times, but I don't think I can recall such a tight grid overall. I guess it makes sense that it would happen at one of the shortest circuits on the calendar.

I seem to recall that spa 2009 was pretty close, but I can't check it right now.

#111 Marklar

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:00

I wonder what the record is for closest ever grid, or perhaps closest top 10-15?

I was just looking at Brazil 2003 in Wikipedia. That race featured none of the top 3 in the correct podium spot after the race. Alonso crashed from 3rd and couldn't make the podium, the red flag moved the official finish back a couple laps, which caused the confusion between Fisi and Kimi with the win being given to Kimi and then back to Fisi following a protest.

The other notable thing about that event for me is how close the grid was. Barrichello's pole time was 1.032 seconds faster than Panis in 15th, and the top 4 were separated by .059. That would be close on an oval in a spec series, much less a road course with 3 different makes of car in the top 4.

The top 10 were covered by just over half a second, and 1 second covered the top 13. Justin Wilson :cry: was last on the grid, 2.779 seconds behind.

I know the top 3 at Jerez '97 had identical times, but I don't think I can recall such a tight grid overall. I guess it makes sense that it would happen at one of the shortest circuits on the calendar.

must be in recent time as in the far past the gaps were larger. Will try to do a querry when Im later at home

#112 Dan333SP

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 14:04

Marklar, do you have a database with complete results for all races and qualifying sessions or something? You pull fairly obscure facts up sometimes that makes me think you must have a much better dataset to work with than the average fan that trolls through Wikipedia until he finds the answer he's looking for.



#113 JeePee

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 14:19

I seem to recall that spa 2009 was pretty close, but I can't check it right now.

The top 9 was separated by 0.480 seconds.

The rest isn't really interesting because of different conditions in different parts of qualifying.



#114 Marklar

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 14:40

Marklar, do you have a database with complete results for all races and qualifying sessions or something? You pull fairly obscure facts up sometimes that makes me think you must have a much better dataset to work with than the average fan that trolls through Wikipedia until he finds the answer he's looking for.

Yep, Ive started to do one in 2010 to learn how to use database tools. But currently I cant use the whole database (old Backup) and it is anyway not completely finish. Many things can be found here (or on forix)

http://www.statsf1.com
http://www.4mula1.ro

#115 Ruusperi

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 14:42

Marklar, do you have a database with complete results for all races and qualifying sessions or something? You pull fairly obscure facts up sometimes that makes me think you must have a much better dataset to work with than the average fan that trolls through Wikipedia until he finds the answer he's looking for.

There are many pages that have results for even free practice sessions since the 70's. It's easy to navigate through the years even if you don't speak german/polish/danish.

 

http://www.motorspor...970/index.shtml

http://projektf1.com/?year=1970

http://f1.motorsport...t.asp?Year=1970

http://www.sport.de/...aison-1970.html



#116 Dan333SP

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 15:06

The top 9 was separated by 0.480 seconds.

The rest isn't really interesting because of different conditions in different parts of qualifying.

 

2009 had refueling and required cars to run their race fuel in Q3, right? I guess you'd have to look at Q2 for meaningful gaps across the whole field.

 

Thanks to the links posted above, I found this from Q2 in Spain that year-

 

1. 23 Rubens Barrichello Brawn GP–Mercedes 1:19,954   6 209,596 2. 14 Mark Webber Red Bull–Renault 1:20,007 +0,053 3 209,457 3. 10 Timo Glock Toyota 1:20,107 +0,153 7 209,195 4. 3 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:20,149 +0,195 7 209,086 5. 22 Jenson Button Brawn GP–Mercedes 1:20,192 +0,238 7 208,973 6. 15 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull–Renault 1:20,220 +0,266 4 208,901 7. 16 Nico Rosberg Williams–Toyota 1:20,256 +0,302 8 208,807 8. 5 Robert Kubica BMW Sauber–BMW 1:20,408 +0,454 3 208,412 9. 9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:20,420 +0,466 7 208,381 10. 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:20,509 +0,555 6 208,151 11. 17 Kazuki Nakajima Williams–Toyota 1:20,531 +0,577 8 208,094 12. 8 Nelsinho Piquet Renault 1:20,604 +0,650 7 207,905 13. 6 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber–BMW 1:20,676 +0,722 6 207,720 14. 1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren–Mercedes 1:20,805 +0,851 6

207,388

 

Less than 9 tenths between the top 14. That's impressive. I'm always amazed when I think about '09 because it was the first year for an entirely new set of rules. Yes, Brawn and RBR had the best designs and battled for the title, but there really wasn't that much in it. Since I've watched F1, major rule changes usually feature one or two dominant teams and then big gaps to everyone else who struggles to catch up, like '14 and '98, but not '09.


Edited by Dan333SP, 22 October 2015 - 15:07.


#117 BRG

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 18:57

Has their ever been a world champion that couldn't speak English?

Kimi?  Leastways, I've never heard him string a whole sentence together in English.   ;)



#118 Myrvold

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 20:44

Less than 9 tenths between the top 14. That's impressive. I'm always amazed when I think about '09 because it was the first year for an entirely new set of rules. Yes, Brawn and RBR had the best designs and battled for the title, but there really wasn't that much in it. Since I've watched F1, major rule changes usually feature one or two dominant teams and then big gaps to everyone else who struggles to catch up, like '14 and '98, but not '09.

 

09 was a very unusual year when you think about how tight the field was. Which also explains how cars could fail to advance from Q1 in one race, and win another.



#119 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 22:58

Kimi? Leastways, I've never heard him string a whole sentence together in English.  ;)


You can add Hakkinen to that list too. They both speak Finnglish ;)

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#120 ensign14

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 08:03

Fangio and Ascari couldn't speak English.  Ascari's French wasn't too great either - in one interview he said that one of his hobbies was ******* (chier) rather than ski-ing (which he thought was schier rather than faire du ski).

 

If you rank WC drivers in terms of best results (all the winners first, then all those with 2nds and so on), then last of the list of classified finishers is Tony Crook.  His best-ever WC GP result is 21st at Britain 1952.  That was the first race with 22 finishers (Alan Brown was behind him).  Under today's rules he wouldn't have been classified.



#121 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 08:48

Eddie Irvine and Bruce McLaren both achieved 4 wins but 0 pole positions.

 

Chris Amon achieved 5 pole positions but 0 wins.



#122 Collombin

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 08:49

Teo Fabi achieved 3 but never led a lap.

#123 lustigson

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 10:37

I always found it interesting to note that Lauda had 6 seasons between his 2nd and 3rd title. Of which, of course, he only competed (just under) 4 seasons.

 

Should Alonso win the title with McLaren-Honda next year, he would take this 'record' with 9 full seasons between championships.



#124 zanquis

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 11:45

In 2011 Massa placed 6th in the WDC without scoring a podium all season. I wonder if that's the highest placed ?

 

Kubica in 2007 also 6th

 

Also Maldonado: lowest final ranking in championship for a GP winner.



#125 Marklar

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 11:56

I always found it interesting to note that Lauda had 6 seasons between his 2nd and 3rd title. Of which, of course, he only competed (just under) 4 seasons.

Should Alonso win the title with McLaren-Honda next year, he would take this 'record' with 9 full seasons between championships.

Should Alonso EVER win a title again than he will break one more record: longest gap between 1st and last WDC.

#126 Collombin

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 12:17

Yeah but the same is true of John Surtees, and I'm not sure that's any less likely.

#127 ensign14

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 12:46

Denny Hulme had as many world titles as poles.  His one pole came 6 years after his world title.



#128 Myrvold

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 12:54

In 1989 we had 29 drivers take points in the championship, is that a record? I cannot see what other season had more point-scorers.

 

Also, is Yannick Dalmas the only driver in F1-history to end in a point-scoring position, in a fully legal F1 car, but not getting any points?

 

Oh, and didn't both 2nd and 3rd in Monaco 1982 not finish the race? That's also something unique I think, while De Cesaris in the same season was classified 5 times, the only two times he scored points, was the two times he didn't finish the race, but was classified on distance.


Edited by Myrvold, 23 October 2015 - 12:59.


#129 byrkus

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 13:50


Also, is Yannick Dalmas the only driver in F1-history to end in a point-scoring position, in a fully legal F1 car, but not getting any points?

 

 

 

Also Jo Gartner @ 1984 Italian GP (5th), and Gerhard Berger at same race (6th). So at Monza 1984 only four drivers got thier points, even though 10 were classified. :drunk: :drunk:


Edited by byrkus, 23 October 2015 - 13:52.


#130 lustigson

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 13:58

Also Jo Gartner @ 1984 Italian GP (5th), and Gerhard Berger at same race (6th). So at Monza 1984 only four drivers got thier points, even though 10 were classified. :drunk: :drunk:

 

Wow, the Dalmas and Gartner cases are new to me. Very strange.



#131 Myrvold

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 13:59

Also Jo Gartner @ 1984 Italian GP (5th), and Gerhard Berger at same race (6th). So at Monza 1984 only four drivers got thier points, even though 10 were classified. :drunk: :drunk:

 

"Great" stuff! :)
 

I knew I had heard of someone, and I felt sure that it wasn't Dalmas, but I couldn't remember it :)


Edited by Myrvold, 23 October 2015 - 14:06.


#132 ensign14

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 14:05

As an aside to that, I found it unfair that the next cars down didn't get points - would have been 2 more for Ghinzani and 1 for Rothengatter (and Spirit).  Guy Ligier got his one point despite not finishing in the top 6 because those ahead were not in the championship.

 

Scott Speed ended in a point scoring position.  So did Bruce Halford.  Speed was demoted, Halford disqualified.

 

An interesting one is Johnny Claes.  Under today's rules he would have a shared-3rd under his name and a couple of points.  After Fangio jumped in his Maserati at Belgium 1953 and bombed through the field from 9th to 3rd.  Alas Fangio crashed on the last lap going for 2nd (even Homer nods).  Back in the 50s you had to cross the line after the winner to be classified.  So, even though Claes/Fangio went further than Marimon in 3rd, because they didn't cross the line after the winner, they were denied a placing.

 

Poor Johnny died 2 years later of TB so lost what would be his only points thanks to a moronic rule.

 

It explains why in old footage you can sometimes see cars parked up before the start-finish line to be pushed/cajoled over once the chequer drops. 



#133 Myrvold

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 14:08

As an aside to that, I found it unfair that the next cars down didn't get points - would have been 2 more for Ghinzani and 1 for Rothengatter (and Spirit).  Guy Ligier got his one point despite not finishing in the top 6 because those ahead were not in the championship.

 

But wasn't that because two of the guys ahead didn't run F1 cars? So he was the 6th best F1 car. A bit like multi-class racing is run.



#134 Jimisgod

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 14:46

I like the fact that every team in 2009 scored points. Same in 2005 but that was assisted a little...



#135 byrkus

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 15:51

How about 2008.. 9 teams scored points, and every single one of them scored at least one podium. :D



#136 ensign14

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 16:53

But wasn't that because two of the guys ahead didn't run F1 cars? So he was the 6th best F1 car. A bit like multi-class racing is run.

 

Yeah.  He was behind two cars that were worse than his...



#137 Radoye

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 16:54

Brothers Teo and Corrado Fabi both drove in F1 during the same time period but never started a race together.



#138 Rob G

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 17:24

Wow, the Dalmas and Gartner cases are new to me. Very strange.

That was because their cars (as well as Berger's ATS), weren't on the entry list at the start of the season, so according to the rules of the time those cars were ineligible for points.



#139 MLC

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 17:30

In 1989 we had 29 drivers take points in the championship, is that a record? I cannot see what other season had more point-scorers.

 

 

Wow. That is impressive, especially considering that points only went to the top 6.

 

What is the most number of cars attempting to qualify for a GP? I assume it must have happened sometime around 1989 when there was pre-qualifying. I think there were about 36 cars entered for the 26 starting positions.



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#140 lustigson

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 17:41

Wow. That is impressive, especially considering that points only went to the top 6.


That may have had something to do with the unreliability of the then-new 3.5L atmospheric engines.

#141 ensign14

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 21:19

Wow. That is impressive, especially considering that points only went to the top 6.

 

What is the most number of cars attempting to qualify for a GP? I assume it must have happened sometime around 1989 when there was pre-qualifying. I think there were about 36 cars entered for the 26 starting positions.

 

For most of 1989 there were 39 cars at each race.  The only numbers below 42 that were not used were 13 and 14.  Indeed at the start of the season 42 itself was allocated to FIRST.  The chassis would turn up the next year as the Life. 



#142 Dan333SP

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 22:53

For most of 1989 there were 39 cars at each race.  The only numbers below 42 that were not used were 13 and 14.  Indeed at the start of the season 42 itself was allocated to FIRST.  The chassis would turn up the next year as the Life. 

I wish I could go back in time and attend a race that year. Imagine how busy the paddocks were on Friday. The variety of chassis/engines was phenomenal too.



#143 Myrvold

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 23:09

I wish I could go back in time and attend a race that year. Imagine how busy the paddocks were on Friday. The variety of chassis/engines was phenomenal too.

 

Agreed. We will never experience anything like that again, but if F1 was a bit cheaper, and more open, who knows, maybe we at least could be able to push the entry limit...



#144 molpid

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 14:01

Hamilton is the first driver to get 10(+) wins in 2 consecutive seasons.



#145 Marklar

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 14:10

Since 2005 (with the exception of 2007) we have the following pattern

 

Even years: Title decider in the last race

Uneven years: Title decider before the last race

 

Hamilton is the first British driver who wins the championship in even and uneven years.



#146 Atreiu

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 14:44

Hamilton is the first driver to get 10(+) wins in 2 consecutive seasons.

 

 

Schumacher had 30 wins between 2002 and 2004 - 51 GPs. 58.8%

Vettel had 29 between 2011 and 2013 - 58 GPs. 50.0%

 

I know 2015 isn't over yet, but those are very tall orders. I wonder if LH can reach them.

 

So far he has 21 from 35 in 2014 and 2015. Amazing 60%.



#147 DerFlugplatz

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 17:06

A Hamilton-Rosberg-Vettel podium has happend 5 times this season. Isn't this already a record for most reapeted top 3 finishing order in a season?



#148 HistoryFan

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 19:32

Vettel's third place was the 700th podium of a Ferrari driver in F1. Has someone a complete list with how many podiums all drivers collected for Ferrari?



#149 Glengavel

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 19:42

Eddie Irvine and Bruce McLaren both achieved 4 wins but 0 pole positions.

 

Chris Amon achieved 5 poles an 0 wins

 

And 3 fastest laps, 2 non-championship wins, won Le Mans 24hrs, Daytona 24hrs, Monza 1000km, Tasman champion (and gave Clark a run for his money the year before). Just plain unlucky in F1.



#150 Marklar

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 19:44

Vettel's third place was the 700th podium of a Ferrari driver in F1. Has someone a complete list with how many podiums all drivers collected for Ferrari?

That is not correct by the way. It was the 700th podium for a Ferrari-powered driver.

Ferrari itself is on 694. Here is the list
http://www.statsf1.c...ari/podium.aspx

And thats the list for the Ferrari-powered team
http://www.statsf1.c...ari/podium.aspx