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#4401 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 12:05

Or McLaren .....
This is one of the few achievements within the record books that even the fabled MP4/4 missed out on....


McLaren’s dominant period was before 1992.

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#4402 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 15:48

This is the first time a team has had 1-2s in the first three races since Williams in 1992.


1992 was also very forgettable...

#4403 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 17:49

McLaren’s dominant period was before 1992.

 

 

I know....

 

But doesn't that count to become rated as utterly dominant because it was before 1992?

 

Besides that: since many rate the MP4/4 as the most dominant car ever within F1 and has record scores and especially %% rates that few cars can match, let alone better....

And it did so in only 16 races. But had there been 21 they likely would have scored at least 19 if not 20/21 for victories and throw in some 3 more double victories. for at least 13 out of 21.

Besides that, it is at least funny to point out something that many won't remember anymore about the MP4/4 that it didn't achieve.....



#4404 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 17:58

I know....
 
But doesn't that count to become rated as utterly dominant because it was before 1992?
 
Besides that: since many rate the MP4/4 as the most dominant car ever within F1 and has record scores and especially %% rates that few cars can match, let alone better....
And it did so in only 16 races. But had there been 21 they likely would have scored at least 19 if not 20/21 for victories and throw in some 3 more double victories. for at least 13 out of 21.
Besides that, it is at least funny to point out something that many won't remember anymore about the MP4/4 that it didn't achieve.....


We’ll it just doesn’t have any bearing on a statistic counting since 1992.

However, it is interesting that the /4 didn’t achieve it because it should have.

#4405 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 18:06

We’ll it just doesn’t have any bearing on a statistic counting since 1992.

However, it is interesting that the /4 didn’t achieve it because it should have.

 

First comment: True

Second comment: Given the stunning success and records of MP4/4, it is indeed remarkable that this one is indeed lacking....



#4406 TheFish

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 18:36

Hamilton has won 53 of the 103 races in the hybrid era. That's 1 more than Vettel has in his career.

The other 50 wins are from Rosberg (20), Vettel (13), Ricciardo (7), Verstappen (5), Bottas (4), Raikkonen (1).



#4407 Dolph

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 19:29

During 2009-2013 (after the major change in aero rules between 2008 and 2009 and before the new hybrid era) Vettel won 38 races out of 94. That's 16 more than Hamilton had won during his career by end of 2013 and 3 more than Alonso.

 

The other 56 were won by Button (14), Hamilton (13), Alonso (11), Webber (9), Rosberg (3), Räikkönen (3), Barrichello (2), Maldonado (1)


Edited by Dolph, 14 April 2019 - 19:34.


#4408 Clatter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 21:03

First comment: True

Second comment: Given the stunning success and records of MP4/4, it is indeed remarkable that this one is indeed lacking....

 


I'm not that surprised. Back then the car they raced wasn't the same car they qualified with. Some drivers were happy to sacrifice Q performance to ensure having the best setup they could for the race.

#4409 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 21:26


I'm not that surprised. Back then the car they raced wasn't the same car they qualified with. Some drivers were happy to sacrifice Q performance to ensure having the best setup they could for the race.


Why would that affect 1-2 finishes?

#4410 Henri Greuter

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:41

I'm not that surprised. Back then the car they raced wasn't the same car they qualified with. Some drivers were happy to sacrifice Q performance to ensure having the best setup they could for the race.


There is also a case of ideal Q-car vs ideal race car: 2002.

If the MP4/4 is remembered for its stunning records all season long, one of the cars that matched it in a number of things and even slightly bettered some %%'s if it comes to race day results, it is the Ferrari F2002 during 2002. It missed the first two races of 2002 and only one started the third race of the season so it had only 29 starts, 14 GP's in which two appeared to score a double. It scored 9 double victories (9/14) and 14 out of 15 victories possible.
However, While the MP4/4 also scored 15/16 poles, the F2002 failed to won poles on at least 7 occasion when Montoya was faster with the Williams-BMW.
Autocourse '03/04 stated about the 2003 cars of the teams that in order to get more qualifying speed out of the car compared with 2002, Ferrari had lengthened the wheelbase a bit, while Williams, in order to gain a better race day setup had reduced their wheelbase a bit compared with their 2002 challenger.
As a result of the basic designs, Ferrari had to accept in 2002 that their wonder car F2002 was indeed by far and away the fastest and best car on Sunday in race trim but it wasn't always the fastest car outright in single lap speed.
Maybe the lack of a double digit of pole scores like that of the MP4/4 makes people overlook the fact that a number of MP4/4 records are almost matched and some %%'s values even bettered by the F2002 during its 29 starts against the 32 of the MP4/4.

Two other illusive records the MP4/4 failed to achieve?
It failed to have at least one car at the front row in every race due to an All Ferrari front row at Silverstone. I know that the Williams of 1996 did have at least one car at every front row that year, good chance there are a few more cars that also achieved this but I haven't kept up with all those statistics anymore during the Hybrid era....

And despite the point records, stunning reliability and so on, it also failed to score points in every race it was entered because despite only 5 retirements or DQ's, two of those were in the very same race: Monza, which spoiled not only the one chance on the perfect score of 16/16 in victories but also on 16/16 point score finishes.
F2002 had such a perfect score of points in every race started by at least one car. Though it wasn't the only one that ever did so
Curiously enough, what was likely (up til now April 15th, 2019 that is ....) the best of the Mercedes Hybrids, the 2016 car also has one double retirement during the season (Spain ......) that spoiled the chance to achieve that record.

#4411 cheekybru

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:34

When was the last time two drivers span on the formation lap? I certainly can't remember it before

(Max and Kubica this race)

#4412 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:38

When was the last time two drivers span on the formation lap? I certainly can't remember it before

(Max and Kubica this race)

Imola 1991 I think both Prost and Berger slid off on the formation lap.

#4413 SenorSjon

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:38

That is a Pirelli feature with the rear blankets maxed out at 80 degrees. Both Mercedes cars did the same thing in FP.



#4414 scheivlak

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:45

When was the last time two drivers span on the formation lap? I certainly can't remember it before

(Max and Kubica this race)

I remember Montoya, Melbourne 2006. Must have been a few few others as well.



#4415 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:18

... it is the Ferrari F2002 during 2002. It missed the first two races of 2002 and only one started the third race of the season so it had only 29 starts, 14 GP's in which two appeared to score a double. It scored 9 double victories (9/14) and 14 out of 15 victories possible.

(...) F2002 had such a perfect score of points in every race started by at least one car.

 

I'm not sure from the second part of your post if 'during 2002' is deliberate. The F2002 was first raced in Brazil '02 by Michael Schumacher, then a race later in San Marino Barrichello also got the new car. That's 15 races, and 14 where both Ferrari's were the F2002. So far the stats check out.

 

However, Ferrari continued to use the F2002 into 2003 for four races with both drivers for eight additional starts.. In 2003, not only did Ferrari fail to reach the podium in Australia (race #1), it also registered a double DNF in Brazil (race #3). The F2002 did get a proper send-off with a win in San Marino (race #4).

 

Ah - the days of Brawn, Byrne and Tombazis. :cool:


Edited by Nonesuch, 15 April 2019 - 13:23.


#4416 Myrvold

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:26

Hamilton has won 53 of the 103 races in the hybrid era. That's 1 more than Vettel has in his career.

The other 50 wins are from Rosberg (20), Vettel (13), Ricciardo (7), Verstappen (5), Bottas (4), Raikkonen (1).

 

 

During 2009-2013 (after the major change in aero rules between 2008 and 2009 and before the new hybrid era) Vettel won 38 races out of 94. That's 16 more than Hamilton had won during his career by end of 2013 and 3 more than Alonso.

 

The other 56 were won by Button (14), Hamilton (13), Alonso (11), Webber (9), Rosberg (3), Räikkönen (3), Barrichello (2), Maldonado (1)

 

Ok, not as clean cut rulewise - but 98-04, the start of the grooved tyres-era, but before the "tyres have to last a whole race" year. Out of 117 races, Michael Schumacher won 56 which in itself was more than any other driver had managed through a whole career.
Other winners in the first non-slick period: Häkkinen (19), Coulthard (10), Barrichello (9), Ralf Schumacher (6), Irvine (4), Montoya (4), Frentzen (2), Räikkönen (2), Hill (1), Herbert (1), Fisichella (1), Alonso (1), Trulli (1)

Granted, we still got 14 more races in the hybrid-era to get to the same amount of races as the first grooved tyres-era, but we only have half the amount of different winners than we got back then. However it is worth nothing that currently, the amount of different champions are the same.


Edited by Myrvold, 15 April 2019 - 13:26.


#4417 Atreiu

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:27

IIRC, Rubens only didn't win at Brazil 2003 because he ran out of fuel. A long in the tooth F2002 was fast enough to win in the wet and dry.



#4418 Dratini

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:32

I remember Montoya, Melbourne 2006. Must have been a few few others as well.

My memory is very fuzzy, but I'm thinking sometime between 2011-2013 there was perhaps a Marussia/Virgin/whatever that spun during the formation lap of maybe.. Japan?

EDIT: Indeed it was di Grassi in the Virgin who crashed on the formation lap of the 2010 Japanese Grand Prix. I'd thought that perhaps Kubica also retired on the formation lap but it was the second lap, where he lost a wheel behind the safety car.


Edited by Dratini, 15 April 2019 - 13:54.


#4419 Myrvold

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:40

IIRC, Rubens only didn't win at Brazil 2003 because he ran out of fuel. A long in the tooth F2002 was fast enough to win in the wet and dry.

On speed yes, Barrcihello seemed to be quite unlucky at Interlagos. However, the 2003 GP would be somewhat impossible to know if he'd been able to take the win, he might've been doing a Webber!



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#4420 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:42

IIRC, Rubens only didn't win at Brazil 2003 because he ran out of fuel. A long in the tooth F2002 was fast enough to win in the wet and dry.

 

It's hard to say "only" in such treacherous conditions, but Barrichello did run a good race, and certainly had a good shot at the win.

 

When talking of these 'perfect' stats the cars involved are rarely going to be not competitive, after all.

 

 


However, the 2003 GP would be somewhat impossible to know if he'd been able to take the win, he might've been doing a Webber!
 
Right, but by then Ferrari was using the F2003-GA so it wouldn't really impact the F2002 stat either way.  :p

 

Never mind that, I was sure I saw US GP there... but alas. :rolleyes: :p

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 15 April 2019 - 13:48.


#4421 SenorSjon

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:52

Rain races? I have to look it up, but we have more and more races, yet desert locations don't help getting more rain races. The last rain-affected race was Germany 2018, but that wasn't much bar some dude in a red car messing things up. Before that Singapore 2017 with a drizzle at the start and China before that with also a drying track. Where did all the rain go?! 

 

From Reddit:

 Hungary 2014

Japan 2014
 
Great Britain 2015
United States 2015
 
Monaco 2016
Great Britain 2016
Brazil 2016
 
China 2017
Singapore 2017
 
Germany 2018
 
That is very sparse and only Brazil 2016 was a full soaked, full wet race iirc.


#4422 Henri Greuter

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:54

I'm not sure from the second part of your post if 'during 2002' is deliberate. The F2002 was first raced in Brazil '02 by Michael Schumacher, then a race later in San Marino Barrichello also got the new car. That's 15 races, and 14 where both Ferrari's were the F2002. So far the stats check out.
 
However, Ferrari continued to use the F2002 into 2003 for four races with both drivers for eight additional starts.. In 2003, not only did Ferrari fail to reach the podium in Australia (race #1), it also registered a double DNF in Brazil (race #3). The F2002 did get a proper send-off with a win in San Marino (race #4).
 
Ah - the days of Brawn, Byrne and Tombazis. :cool:



Of course it is deliberate! But with a reason: I did so because I don't think it is entirely fair to the F2002 to bring in the '03 statistics as well because by then it phased brand new and different opponents than the crs it was up to in the largest part of its career. MP4/4 didn't have to do anything like that either. So that is why i omitted the 2003 results.
But no denying that including those will make the stats for F2002 quite a bit worse. No denying that. But doing so isn't fair in my own opinion. But free to feel different of course.

#4423 Dratini

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 14:02

 

Rain races? I have to look it up, but we have more and more races, yet desert locations don't help getting more rain races. The last rain-affected race was Germany 2018, but that wasn't much bar some dude in a red car messing things up. Before that Singapore 2017 with a drizzle at the start and China before that with also a drying track. Where did all the rain go?! 

 

From Reddit:

 Hungary 2014

Japan 2014
 
Great Britain 2015
United States 2015
 
Monaco 2016
Great Britain 2016
Brazil 2016
 
China 2017
Singapore 2017
 
Germany 2018
 
That is very sparse and only Brazil 2016 was a full soaked, full wet race iirc.

 

2010 was certainly a big one for it..

Second pre-season test
Third pre-season test
Australia - race
Malaysia - qualifying
China - race
Great Britain - practice
Belgium - race
Japan - qualifying (postponed)
Korea - race



#4424 Spillage

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 22:32

I was reading about Al Pease tonight. I learned that he had a bit of a nightmare at the 1967 Canadian Grand Prix, where he entered a privately run Eagle. He qualified down in 16th and had to change a battery on the grid. During the race he spun and stalled, suffering another flat battery. No matter - he ran back to the pits, collected a new one, ran back to his car and managed to fit it all by himself. He was still running at the end of the race, finishing 43 laps down on the winner. He wasn't classified, of course, but is that the furthest behind anyone has ever finished whilst still seeing the chequered flag?



#4425 Myrvold

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 00:19

I was reading about Al Pease tonight. I learned that he had a bit of a nightmare at the 1967 Canadian Grand Prix, where he entered a privately run Eagle. He qualified down in 16th and had to change a battery on the grid. During the race he spun and stalled, suffering another flat battery. No matter - he ran back to the pits, collected a new one, ran back to his car and managed to fit it all by himself. He was still running at the end of the race, finishing 43 laps down on the winner. He wasn't classified, of course, but is that the furthest behind anyone has ever finished whilst still seeing the chequered flag?

Isn't that the guy who are the only driver ever to be disqualified in an F1 race for being too slow? Granted in 1969 with a car built for the 1966 season, and an engine originally built for Indy 500 in 1961. But still, IIRC he was DQ'd in the Canadian GP 1969.

 

Not to be confused with Hans Heyer who started the 1977 German GP from the pits despite not having qualifed for the race.



#4426 Spillage

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:02

Isn't that the guy who are the only driver ever to be disqualified in an F1 race for being too slow? Granted in 1969 with a car built for the 1966 season, and an engine originally built for Indy 500 in 1961. But still, IIRC he was DQ'd in the Canadian GP 1969.

 

Not to be confused with Hans Heyer who started the 1977 German GP from the pits despite not having qualifed for the race.

That's right - he was 24 laps down at the time of his disqualification on lap 46. 

 

Another good story about the storied history of F1 failures is the 1974 Belgian GP, where 31 cars qualified for the race. Only one didn't - Leo Kinnunen from Finland, driving a Surtees. He was 31 years old.

 

The most starters ever at a race was 34 at the 1953 German GP.


Edited by Spillage, 16 April 2019 - 11:02.


#4427 Hela

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:31

Hamilton has won 53 of the 103 races in the hybrid era. That's 1 more than Vettel has in his career.

The other 50 wins are from Rosberg (20), Vettel (13), Ricciardo (7), Verstappen (5), Bottas (4), Raikkonen (1).

 

Does anyone know if Hamilton has more pole positions than the entire current grid put together ?



#4428 Currahee

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:37

Does anyone know if Hamilton has more pole positions than the entire current grid put together ?


He does.

#4429 ensign14

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:39

I was reading about Al Pease tonight. I learned that he had a bit of a nightmare at the 1967 Canadian Grand Prix, where he entered a privately run Eagle. He qualified down in 16th and had to change a battery on the grid. During the race he spun and stalled, suffering another flat battery. No matter - he ran back to the pits, collected a new one, ran back to his car and managed to fit it all by himself. He was still running at the end of the race, finishing 43 laps down on the winner. He wasn't classified, of course, but is that the furthest behind anyone has ever finished whilst still seeing the chequered flag?

 

Elio de Angelis completed 57% of the British GP 1985.  Pitted with the car dead, at some point in the pits they managed to fire it up, so he went out for an extended test.  Only a little more than Pease's percentage.  (To be fair to Pease in 1969, he lost 25 minutes in the pits.  But he was blackflagged for constantly getting in the way of those lapping him.  And shoved Silvio Moser off on the first lap.)

 

In term of number of laps down, however, Innes Ireland beats that at Monaco 1960.  Back then you were classed as a finisher if you crossed the line under the chequer.  As cars fell by the wayside, a few "retired" entrants bodged enough of a repair together to make a couple of extra laps and try to steal a point.  Ireland therefore completed 56 laps out of 100.

 

And yet nearly scored a point.  Had Richie Ginther not managed to creep over the line in 6th he would have done.  As it is, Ginther got a point, despite being 30 laps down.  Which might be another record...
 



#4430 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 13:00

Worth mentioning that to get his Lotus to the finish Ireland had had to push it around most of the circuit. The car had stopped with a dead engine halfway up the hill from Ste Devote to the casino, and somehow Innes had managed to heave the car bodily up the rest of the hill and through Casino Square. He then jumped back in, hoping to restart the engine whilst freewheeling down the other side of the hill towards the seafront.

It didn’t work, so Innes got out again and shoved it round the rest of the lap so he could push it over the finish line after Moss had taken the flag.

#4431 Spillage

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 14:45

Crikey. Ireland must have been in excellent shape to be able to do that.



#4432 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 15:03

He was completely knackered when he got the car to the top of the hill. You can read his story in his own words here.

#4433 ensign14

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 16:08

I think it was because of that race the 90% rule was made universal.  Before organizers used their own rules - at Indy there was a certain amount of time after the winner finished, so you could try to complete the 200 laps in that time, otherwise you would get flagged off - but most of them classed anyone as a finisher if they crossed the line after the winner.

 

Which is the current Le Mans rule, with the proviso that you can't just park up for three hours right before the line, you have to do your last lap under a laptime threshold (I think it is 4x the fastest lap - in practice you have to keep going to within a quarter of an hour of the end before stopping).  Hence the Toyota that broke down with minutes to go was not even classified despite going further than every other car in the race bar one.

 

And every motor racing fan should look out Ireland's book All Arms And Elbows.  Not very long but absolutely stellar.



#4434 JordanIreland

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 01:10

True, but for 12 years - 1958 to 1969 - the WDC were all English speakers.

AFAIK no driver called Smith has ever raced in F1.


There was a Paul GoldSmith.... does that count :)
https://www.statsf1....-goldsmith.aspx

#4435 Collombin

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 06:23

He didn't race in F1 afaik. Indy have a proud Smithless record of race starters though, and they certainly don't count him as a Smith.

#4436 pacificquay

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 07:44

When was the last time two drivers span on the formation lap? I certainly can't remember it before
(Max and Kubica this race)


No-one “span”, they spun.

#4437 ensign14

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 08:08

Eve span.



#4438 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 18:20

Rain races? I have to look it up, but we have more and more races, yet desert locations don't help getting more rain races. The last rain-affected race was Germany 2018, but that wasn't much bar some dude in a red car messing things up. Before that Singapore 2017 with a drizzle at the start and China before that with also a drying track. Where did all the rain go?!

From Reddit:
Hungary 2014
Japan 2014

Great Britain 2015
United States 2015

Monaco 2016
Great Britain 2016
Brazil 2016

China 2017
Singapore 2017

Germany 2018

That is very sparse and only Brazil 2016 was a full soaked, full wet race iirc.

It seems liberty has some sort of device to control weather

Edited by BiggestBuddyLazierFan, 18 April 2019 - 18:27.


#4439 SenorSjon

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 18:53

It is called a calendar. ;) But it isn't unknown for a regime to dissolve clouds with planes & chemicals to have a nice sunny presentation.

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#4440 Hati

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:02

So, for now Perez is only one who has been on podium in Baku more than once?



#4441 Beri

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 17:01

So, for now Perez is only one who has been on podium in Baku more than once?


Yep.

#4442 Henri Greuter

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 18:46

Yep.

 

And isn't that also meaning that Perez is the only driver, not driving for either Mercedes, Ferrari and/or RedBull with more than one podium in the past three or so seasons??



#4443 Beri

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 19:46

I do think so, yes.

#4444 Hela

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 21:08

And isn't that also meaning that Perez is the only driver, not driving for either Mercedes, Ferrari and/or RedBull with more than one podium in the past three or so seasons??

 

Kimi drives for Alfa and Danny Ric for Renault  :)

 

I know what you mean though


Edited by Hela, 25 April 2019 - 21:10.


#4445 Anderis

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 21:02

Inspired by another thread:
Markus Winkelhock led 46.15% of all F1 laps he completed during his entire career. Was there ever a driver with even better ratio?

I bet nobody came close to doing that in the worst car on the grid, at least. :rotfl:



#4446 Collombin

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 21:08

In WDC races Bill Vukovich led over 70% of his laps.

#4447 PlatenGlass

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 21:39

Pastor Maldonado must be quite high up because he won one race and crashed out on the first lap of every other race he entered.

#4448 Hati

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 10:26

Anyone remember which race it was where Schumacher made a 360 spin during qualifying in main straight and continued as nothing had happened? Reason I'm asking it in this thread is that if I remember it correctly he would have qualified seventh with time from that lap which is quite crazy in my books.

 

(Video of said incident would be nice too.)



#4449 noriaki

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 18:33

Here's a statistic that absolutely no one asked for. If a driver was disqualified from all the qualifying results they ever had in the WDC, how many total pole positions would their team-mates have accummulated? This was to find out the "potential" amount of pole positions the driver "should" have accumulated with their equipment they have had. I calculated the number for all drivers with at least 20 pole positions. 

 

Name - Pole Positions - Team Mate Pole Positions

Lewis Hamilton - 84 - 85

Alain Prost - 33 - 63

Nico Rosberg - 30 - 56

Damon Hill - 20 - 36

Ayrton Senna - 65 - 35

Sebastian Vettel - 55 - 34

Michael Schumacher - 68 - 31

Nigel Mansell - 32 - 29

Mika Häkkinen - 26 - 22

Juan Manuel Fangio - 29 - 20

Niki Lauda - 24 - 17

Nelson Piquet - 24 - 17

Fernando Alonso - 22 - 17

Jim Clark - 33 - 9

 

However in the end, I guess it turned out to tell almost more about the standard of the team-mates the drivers have had, than the standard of equipment. But because of the time I put in it I decided to share it anyway in case anyone finds it interesting. 


Edited by noriaki, 27 April 2019 - 18:34.


#4450 Bleu

Bleu
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  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 April 2019 - 22:18

Anyone remember which race it was where Schumacher made a 360 spin during qualifying in main straight and continued as nothing had happened? Reason I'm asking it in this thread is that if I remember it correctly he would have qualified seventh with time from that lap which is quite crazy in my books.

 

(Video of said incident would be nice too.)

 

IIRC it was Hungary 1995.