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McLaren MCL33: Part V


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#1501 Clatter

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 20:59

McLaren during their time with Honda didn't give them data about the car according to Tost:

https://it.motorspor...4308908/?nrt=54


Sounds like BS to me. This is not the first time Honda have been involved in F1.

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#1502 CPR

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:54

Some comments from Lando:
https://www.formula1...E6SKWYUU8m.html
 

“Of course, they’re confident they’re making the right changes. There’s been quite a lot of changes in the team and how they’re approaching things and approaching the work for next year and the development.


Speaking for myself, I'd love to know more details about development methodologies. It's something that I talk about a lot during my real life job (software development). It's one of those things where it's very hard to say what the best option is. And also something where how well it's implemented makes a big difference.

 

“I think they’re focusing more on making sure something is 100 percent better rather than just going, ‘Ah it looks like it’s going to be better’ and... putting it on, something like that. I think they have a much better understanding, but time will tell.”

 
I mentioned in a post yesterday that: Lots and lots of tradeoffs between various aspects of the car. More aero parts often add weight and drag which harms other aspects of performance, meaning that some upgrades might harm performance in certain areas while still being a net improvement. True innovation could possibly be seen as a true step forwards that has no downsides (except the cost of development). So a company that truly innovates will outpace a company that simply selects new compromises within an existing innovation level.

 

When I said that I certainly didn't expect to see the above quote which seems to be saying pretty much the same thing!



#1503 Quickshifter

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 17:22

Once bitten twice shy---It describes Mclaren's approach towards 2019. They have adopted a philosophy of making  absolutely sure something is working properly before introduction. They clearly do not want to make a goof up when it comes to the fundamentals of the car, by that i mean the basic chassis, suspension geometry and pickup points, wheelbase choice etc which are things cannot be changed without a B spec Car and in this era of limited CFD and wind tunnel time it is even more crucial to get the basics right. The relatively easily upgradable areas are  made modular these days so that upgrading process is more seamless. Mclaren are stressing about getting the processes and basics right in every press byte.

 

If there is one big positive of this train wreck of a season is that Mclaren have gone back to basics  with massive attention on their approach and working together as one collective team instead of a piece meal approach.


Edited by Quickshifter, 07 December 2018 - 17:23.


#1504 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 18:43

Hi everyone.

Good reads. incredible thoughts.
I take some tie to think about it.


Never the less, MCL34 should be way faster and 33!.


There is no reason to expect the 34 to be better than the 33. Funding is consistently being reduced, the management and engineering teams are a mess, the drivers are not particularly impressive.

#1505 Clatter

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 19:17

There is no reason to expect the 34 to be better than the 33. Funding is consistently being reduced, the management and engineering teams are a mess, the drivers are not particularly impressive.

 


There is every reason to believe the 34 will be better. The 33 was almost as bad as it could possibly be, the only way is up from there.

#1506 Owen

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 20:06

I feel confident it will be better. Lol

#1507 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 20:43

There is every reason to believe the 34 will be better. The 33 was almost as bad as it could possibly be, the only way is up from there.

 

Possibly finishing lower in standings though. Correlation between success and budget, and if McLaren aren't going to spend much then who are they going beat over the season? Renault likely finishing ahead, as well as a bigger budget Racing Point, no reason why Haas should get worse, Toro Rosso is going for the Haas model with Red Bull providing most of the car bar chassis, Sauber are a vastly different set-up to what we're used to. Williams and McLaren might end up fighting over last again, and who's got the better driver line-up of those two?



#1508 WestMM

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 20:57

I feel confident it will be better. Lol

I have to say, I felt this way early in '18 and I was incorrect.

 

I hate to sound so doom and gloom, but I see very little to be optimistic about for 2019. 



#1509 Maustinsj

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 21:41

I feel confident that none of us has any idea of any single piece of information about any development at MTC whatsoever.



#1510 Owen

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 21:46

I feel confident that none of us has any idea of any single piece of information about any development at MTC whatsoever.

Don’t be so absolute.

#1511 Maustinsj

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 22:03

Don’t be so absolute.

 

Absolutely.



#1512 BJHF1

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 22:34

I feel confident that none of us has any idea of any single piece of information about any development at MTC whatsoever.

 

 

I have to say, I felt this way early in '18 and I was incorrect.

 

I hate to sound so doom and gloom, but I see very little to be optimistic about for 2019. 

 

 

I'd rather wait and see myself. The possibilities are endless as to what they and others will produce next year (particularly for us outsiders trying to look in), so it's rather hard to rationalize how things will end up. I mean who knows, Mclaren could produce anything from something quite respectable to another complete dud. Without the acquisition of some known quantity/magician (like a Newey), I think it's quite hard to predict where things will end up.  Then you have to consider what Renault will bring to the table in terms of their PU next year.

 

I will say, the optimistic tones have been spread year in year out for sometime now and things have only gotten worse unfortunately.



#1513 Maustinsj

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 22:47

I also may have just drunk 1.5 litres of Pepsi in one sitting, so any posts could just be the result of an insane amount of caffeine.



#1514 Widefoot2

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 03:09

I also may have just drunk 1.5 litres of Pepsi in one sitting, so any posts could just be the result of an insane amount of caffeine.

Whatever you do, do not eat a box of Mentos until 24hrs have passed - your life hangs in the balance!

 



#1515 Fatgadget

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 13:56

Sainz feels the 'power' as McLarens lead driver. He has to thank McLaren's demise to be in that position I guess. <shrugs>

 

https://www.autospor...-feels-powerful



#1516 kumo7

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 07:36

Whatever you do, do not eat a box of Mentos until 24hrs have passed - your life hangs in the balance!

 

 

the invention of a new fuel additive.... 



#1517 Alburaq

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 13:41

https://i.imgur.com/CqC3AQ0.jpg

 

A Nice pic. It shows how Mclaren didnt exploit all that empty space above the engine that Renault has freed up thanks to the new intake plenum, to relocate some of the cooling system there, like Renault and RB did.
It's quite strange because Mclaren was doing exactly that with the Honda powerunit; many coolers where placed above the engine... This year, Mclaren decided to put everything in the sidepods. But why?
The 2018 Renault had less cooling demands then the 2017 Honda according to Boullier (hence the smaller 2018 sidepod intakes ?) That partly answers the question... 
Maybe they wanted to lower the CoG... even the compressor air-filter is placed very low, just above the turbo, not exactly likethe  Renault and the RB.
(it looks as if this airbox has been designed around a 2017 Renault plenum)
 
Nice little NACA intake on the internal bodywork near the turbo/wastegate  :p

Edited by Alburaq, 09 December 2018 - 13:55.


#1518 lio007

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 14:23

https://i.imgur.com/CqC3AQ0.jpg

 

A Nice pic. It shows how Mclaren didnt exploit all that empty space above the engine that Renault has freed up thanks to the new intake plenum, to relocate some of the cooling system there, like Renault and RB did.
It's quite strange because Mclaren was doing exactly that with the Honda powerunit; many coolers where placed above the engine... This year, Mclaren decided to put everything in the sidepods. But why?
The 2018 Renault had less cooling demands then the 2017 Honda according to Boullier (hence the smaller 2018 sidepod intakes ?) That partly answers the question... 
Maybe they wanted to lower the CoG... even the compressor air-filter is placed very low, just above the turbo, not exactly likethe  Renault and the RB.
(it looks as if this airbox has been designed around a 2017 Renault plenum)
 
Nice little NACA intake on the internal bodywork near the turbo/wastegate  :p

 


Alburaq = Blackout ?

#1519 pup

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 14:52

the invention of a new fuel additive....

You laugh, but Honda spent the better part of year 2 trying to develop a qualifying mode via a similar process. The idea was that for Q3, they would fill the car with a carbonated fuel mixture, then prior to the hot lap the driver would press a button that would drop a Mentos into the tank. The resulting reaction would send fuel through a breather tube that connected directly to the fuel rail, bypassing fuel flow limits. But they could never figure out how to bleed off enough of the CO2, which was preventing detonation. Later they experimented with nitrous oxide infused pop rocks, which worked but the sugar residue fouled the turbo.

Edited by pup, 09 December 2018 - 14:53.


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#1520 CPR

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 23:38

 

https://i.imgur.com/CqC3AQ0.jpg

 

A Nice pic. It shows how Mclaren didnt exploit all that empty space above the engine that Renault has freed up thanks to the new intake plenum, to relocate some of the cooling system there, like Renault and RB did.
It's quite strange because Mclaren was doing exactly that with the Honda powerunit; many coolers where placed above the engine... This year, Mclaren decided to put everything in the sidepods. But why?
The 2018 Renault had less cooling demands then the 2017 Honda according to Boullier (hence the smaller 2018 sidepod intakes ?) That partly answers the question... 
Maybe they wanted to lower the CoG... even the compressor air-filter is placed very low, just above the turbo, not exactly likethe  Renault and the RB.
(it looks as if this airbox has been designed around a 2017 Renault plenum)
 
Nice little NACA intake on the internal bodywork near the turbo/wastegate  :p

 

 

The team has hinted a bit about things they got wrong and my general impression is that the layout of the cooling is one of them. I guess they thought they saw an opportunity for this year but it didn't work out as expected. I dunno if they'll simply revert to something like what they had in 2017. Perhaps they'll go further and do something much more similar to the other teams.

 

We'll have to wait and see how it all turns out. Nearly 2 months to go until winter testing starts. Fingers crossed for some pretty smooth running.



#1521 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:06

Sounds like BS to me. This is not the first time Honda have been involved in F1.

Yep, Red Bull are setting themselves up for a huge pie face moment after constantly telling the world through Tost how they will be a much better marriage.

If this Honda is remotely underpowered or unreliable this love-in will fall apart quicker than a Love Island fling. 



#1522 realracer200

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:17

On the other hand if Honda proves competitive and reliable then this marriage will go down in history as an epic stroke of genius.


Edited by realracer200, 10 December 2018 - 11:19.


#1523 Joseki

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:59

Cooling being wrong could explain the huge drag too. Internals being wrong can mess up the airflow more than people would think.



#1524 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 12:25

I'm hearing good things. No further comment.



#1525 Joseki

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 12:56

I'm hearing good things. No further comment.

 

I've heard good things too by the way. :wave:

 

Still, I'm approaching 2019 with no expectations. I feel positive however.

 

 

 

 

 

In more concrete news, Autosport confirms Seidl is expected to join McLaren

 

https://www.autospor...-before-f1-role



#1526 CPR

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 13:01

Cooling being wrong could explain the huge drag too. Internals being wrong can mess up the airflow more than people would think.

 

Yes, though it feels somewhat unrelated here. Feels more like that the excess drag on the MCL33 was more a factor of not properly considering/projecting the downsides of various aero elements rather than cooling elements - after all, they were able to improve it during the year.

 

 

I'm hearing good things. No further comment.

 

70 days until winter testing starts. Hopefully we can see good things too. 



#1527 Joseki

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 13:07

https://www.autospor...018-compromises

 

The Nando expects good things from McLaren next year.



#1528 bogi

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 13:16

https://www.autospor...018-compromises

 

The Nando expects good things from McLaren next year.

 

 

Same rehashed quotes from US GP



#1529 CPR

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 13:18

I've heard good things too by the way. :wave:
 
Still, I'm approaching 2019 with no expectations. I feel positive however.


I'm not sure what counts as good in the current environment...

 

Hmm, I guess something like, "for all the problems we identified during the year, based on the numbers we're seeing in CFD/wind tunnel, we believe that we have resolved them" ?

 

That would be a good start. It's pretty much the minimum, really.


 

In more concrete news, Autosport confirms Seidl is expected to join McLaren
 
https://www.autospor...-before-f1-role


Completely guessing here, but if he does in fact end up at McLaren they probably want him to setup their WEC team. They're not planning to join WEC full time in 2020 but perhaps from 2021...



#1530 Christophe77

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 14:17

I'm not sure what counts as good in the current environment...

 

Hmm, I guess something like, "for all the problems we identified during the year, based on the numbers we're seeing in CFD/wind tunnel, we believe that we have resolved them" ?

 

That would be a good start. It's pretty much the minimum, really.

 


Completely guessing here, but if he does in fact end up at McLaren they probably want him to setup their WEC team. They're not planning to join WEC full time in 2020 but perhaps from 2021...

 

Could be, didn't think about that possibility. I was guessing he will head the F1 operation. Next to Bob Fernley who heads the Indycar program, both reporting to Brown.  Well, we'll see...



#1531 pup

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 15:05

more concrete news, Autosport confirms Seidl is expected to join McLaren

 

https://www.autospor...-before-f1-role

 

I don't see where they confirmed anything, though I don't doubt it.



#1532 f1rules

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 15:19

Im pretty sure he will head the f1 program, they need someone with proven track record and offcourse he is german 👍
I dont think a wec program would lure him away from head at motorsport at porsche, bringing mclaren f1 back to the sharp end on the other hand... at least i hope so. Signing a guy like this, brings trust and validation to the future mclaren f1 program i think, not least if you want to bring a manufacturer onboard

Edited by f1rules, 10 December 2018 - 15:23.


#1533 kumo7

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 15:59

You laugh, but Honda spent the better part of year 2 trying to develop a qualifying mode via a similar process. The idea was that for Q3, they would fill the car with a carbonated fuel mixture, then prior to the hot lap the driver would press a button that would drop a Mentos into the tank. The resulting reaction would send fuel through a breather tube that connected directly to the fuel rail, bypassing fuel flow limits. But they could never figure out how to bleed off enough of the CO2, which was preventing detonation. Later they experimented with nitrous oxide infused pop rocks, which worked but the sugar residue fouled the turbo.

 

I had this slight suspicion that Honda with McLaren did not exploit enough about the loopholes of the rules, concerning the additive.

Japanese are quite well known to choose Harakiri against the live.



#1534 Quickshifter

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 16:39



#1535 Christophe77

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 16:48

Im pretty sure he will head the f1 program, they need someone with proven track record and offcourse he is german
I dont think a wec program would lure him away from head at motorsport at porsche, bringing mclaren f1 back to the sharp end on the other hand... at least i hope so. Signing a guy like this, brings trust and validation to the future mclaren f1 program i think, not least if you want to bring a manufacturer onboard

 

Still, maybe they made a mistake in getting rid of Jost Capito so quickly. I could have seen him in this role also... 



#1536 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 20:09

Zak Brown interview;
https://www.formula1...uMGm8sKMoM.html

#1537 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 20:27

Watching that McLaren video makes me think Will Joseph is race engineering Lando next year. Maybe.

#1538 Pumpkinz

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:22

Seidl quit at Porsche because the F1 Plans were dropped, german Media reported. So if he joins i definitely think it will be for the F1 Branch, but if McLaren wants to join WEC sometime in the near Future i'm sure he has some good Tips and insight to speed up the learning Process.



#1539 f1rules

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:36

Its three months away i know, still damm, surprise us positively for once mclaren, produce a really good chassis and hopefully renault will deliver that bit extra also, atleast according to motormouth abiteboul. Just so they will be constantly in the top 10 :-) but it will be difficult for sure. No alonso. And all three top teams realized that with the current development restrictions, b-teams are the way forward to support their ambtions. Im sure rb will take it to the extremes with basicly 4 rb cars, 2 of them in disguise serving as test platform. Then there is Fer and Haas, yes the haas has different aero confiquration, but build on basicly the same platform. So we can expect them to be competitive. We have ferrari sauber, which will probably be ferrraris real b team ala torro rosso. We have renault. FI who are always making miracles with what they have. Im not sure if they increased colaboration with merc, but im quessing so. SInce thats the way forward for these teams. They get a state of the art platform to build from and can focus on other areas like aero etc. and that does make life a hell lot easier.

So with all these b teams around it could be a VERY tight midfield battle next year. 


Edited by f1rules, 11 December 2018 - 07:10.


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#1540 WestMM

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:19

I'm hearing good things. No further comment.

I desperately want you to be right, don't get me wrong, but, respectfully, you said similar things for most of the 2018 season.

 

I know you have actual access to the team. I get the sense McLaren doesn't know if they're coming or going right now.

 

Again... I hope you're right.



#1541 f1rules

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:40

i know youre closer to the team so fingers crossed, i tried to get ivan to pinpoint 5 mistakes on their chassis but he didnt go along :-)

 

 

I'm hearing good things. No further comment.



#1542 Owen

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:51

I think this time last year the expectations were good - the on-track running had not yet exposed the mysterious aero problem that didn't show itself in the wind tunnel.

I'm hopeful that the hard lessons have been learned though - especially in light of many comments to that effect.

Not expecting wins, but I'm expecting a much better car next year. All comments are positive at this stage. But I know, they usually are, at this stage lol.



#1543 Matthew22

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:32

I think this time last year the expectations were good - the on-track running had not yet exposed the mysterious aero problem that didn't show itself in the wind tunnel.

I'm hopeful that the hard lessons have been learned though - especially in light of many comments to that effect.

Not expecting wins, but I'm expecting a much better car next year. All comments are positive at this stage. But I know, they usually are, at this stage lol.

 

I'm expecting them to be the 4th best team comfortably, half way between P5 and P3 this year in terms of time if you will. These people haven't forgotten how to build a car, they just got something wrong this year, and they've learnt from it.  A lot of mud has been thrown at McLaren but no one remembers RBR started 2017 with a poor car, and 2015 as well. So for 2 of the last 4 years, the Red Bull hasn't been up to scratch at least the start of the year. 



#1544 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:59

I'm expecting them to be the 4th best team comfortably, half way between P5 and P3 this year in terms of time if you will. These people haven't forgotten how to build a car, they just got something wrong this year, and they've learnt from it.  A lot of mud has been thrown at McLaren but no one remembers RBR started 2017 with a poor car, and 2015 as well. So for 2 of the last 4 years, the Red Bull hasn't been up to scratch at least the start of the year. 

 

Can't see how they're going to beat Renault/Enstone, who have a higher budget, better drivers, and also have "people who haven't forgotten how to build a car" and have been on a recruitment drive in the last couple of years. 



#1545 Owen

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 12:20

Encouraging.

https://www.auto-mot...mclaren-schief/



#1546 CPR

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 13:30

I think this time last year the expectations were good - the on-track running had not yet exposed the mysterious aero problem that didn't show itself in the wind tunnel.

I'm hopeful that the hard lessons have been learned though - especially in light of many comments to that effect.

Not expecting wins, but I'm expecting a much better car next year. All comments are positive at this stage. But I know, they usually are, at this stage lol.

 

Yeah, there's often a positive feeling around this time of year. Maybe for once it won't be misplaced!

 

 

I'm expecting them to be the 4th best team comfortably, half way between P5 and P3 this year in terms of time if you will. These people haven't forgotten how to build a car, they just got something wrong this year, and they've learnt from it.  A lot of mud has been thrown at McLaren but no one remembers RBR started 2017 with a poor car, and 2015 as well. So for 2 of the last 4 years, the Red Bull hasn't been up to scratch at least the start of the year. 

 

I might be wrong but it's possible that Renault vs McLaren could be an interesting team battle this year. I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren start the year with a somewhat "back to basics" car that they then develop rapidly. I'm not saying that all parts of the car will be "basic" but rather that there'll be a lot of parts that are designed to be good and solid but not super refined/detailed, on the aero side at least. Putting it another way, due to more or less losing a year of development they'll be playing catch-up to some degree.

 

 

Can't see how they're going to beat Renault/Enstone, who have a higher budget, better drivers, and also have "people who haven't forgotten how to build a car" and have been on a recruitment drive in the last couple of years. 

 

I think the budgets are pretty similar.

 

The Renault had some weaknesses this year. It'll be interesting to see if they can be addressed or not.

 

 

 

 

None of the comments felt surprising to me. Lots of new technical comments but to a large degree I think they were confirming what we already knew or suspected.

 

Perhaps the most interesting comment was about the tyres. Assuming I'm reading that right then there wasn't any stated problem with the tyres in quali - but rather the strength of the chassis showed in the tyre management during the race.



#1547 Maustinsj

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 13:54

Encouraging.
https://www.auto-mot...mclaren-schief/


Thanks Owen - interesting read.

#1548 Quickshifter

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 14:15

Encouraging.
https://www.auto-mot...mclaren-schief/


Good Read. It adds detailed explanation to something we all knew.
MCL32 was a good car but in order to close the gap to Redbull they took certain risks with the concept but ended up going so far that instead of reaping some advantages they lost out on their original strengths as well.

Managing front tyre wake is where big teams hold the biggest advantage. They just got themselves in to a dead end situation where changes weren't going to make a big change other than coming with a B spec car.

As i have said already CFD and Wind tunnel irrespective of how state of the art they are, they have their limitations. Late engine switch, reliability issues curtailing running in preseason testing and risks not paying off are the three major contributors of the debacle in 2019.

Again in this article they talk about change in approach, processes, testing methods and improving measurement tools which will bode well for the future.

#1549 f1rules

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 14:16

Thanks 👍 Very interesting read! If all those qoutes are real, it just underlines that amus + fabrega are the ones with valuable content

Encouraging.
https://www.auto-mot...mclaren-schief/



#1550 f1rules

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 14:21

stella states that the top teams excel through having consistent df althrough a corner from braking/entry to accelaration out of, and he then underlines the importance of controlling front wheel wake as it influences the floor of the car a lot, and with these new generation cars the floor contribute a lot to overall df. Amus mention that mclaren in order to stabelize the car all through the corner ran more wing at the expense of drag. Further mclaren acknowledge they have big problems in slow corners, something that is very difficult to simulate in windtunnel according to mclaren

Good Read. It adds detailed explanation to something we all knew.
MCL32 was a good car but in order to close the gap to Redbull they took certain risks with the concept but ended up going so far that instead of reaping some advantages they lost out on their original strengths as well.

Managing front tyre wake is where big teams hold the biggest advantage. They just got themselves in to a dead end situation where changes weren't going to make a big change other than coming with a B spec car.

As i have said already CFD and Wind tunnel irrespective of how state of the art they are, they have their limitations. Late engine switch, reliability issues curtailing running in preseason testing and risks not paying off are the three major contributors of the debacle in 2019.

Again in this article they talk about change in approach, processes, testing methods and improving measurement tools which will bode well for the future.


Edited by f1rules, 11 December 2018 - 14:30.