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2020 Formula 1 Silly Season


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#4801 balage06

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 14:59

Are both Shwartzman and Armstrong Ferrari bound? Which of the two is the most talented one then?

 

Yes. I think regarding pure speed, Armstrong has a slight edge. BUT Shwartzman's true strength is his amazing consistency. He beat Marcus for the 2018 Toyota Racing Series title with only one victory, then finished ahead of him last year in European F3 and looks like he'll do the same this year as well.


Edited by balage06, 10 September 2019 - 15:05.


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#4802 potmotr

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 15:51

Toro Rosso is the end of the line for Kvyat at the Red Bull family. He is only there to fill a seat and will be booted out as soon as they find the next prospect. 

He should do everything he can to get a deal elsewhere asap. 

 

Agreed, he needs to break free and stand on his own two feet.

Wasn't he linked to Haas?



#4803 potmotr

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 15:53

At this point Vettel to Red Bull would be the most exciting transfer for next season. Verstappen would be a fun rivalry (& contrary to his position vis-à-vis Leclerc at Ferrari when the season started, Vettel would be the underdog expected to get "blown away" by Verstappen). I also don't believe Verstappen is completely immune either, for example no one is talking about his massive mistake at the start on Sunday, or his previous massive mistake at Spa last weekend. That's what being a "up a coming hot prospect" affords a driver, i.e. lenience in public perception towards their mistakes. Meanwhile veterans like Vettel get trashed.  

 

That's very true, good point.



#4804 potmotr

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 15:55

Are both Shwartzman and Armstrong Ferrari bound? Which of the two is the most talented one then?

 

I'd say Schumacher is above both in the pecking order.

 

The Autosport podcast speculated that Schumacher would be in at Sauber in 2021 after a second year of F2.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Just need to figure out if Mick is the next Michael of the next Ralf.


Edited by potmotr, 10 September 2019 - 15:56.


#4805 Nathan

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 16:08

I wonder why Latifi invests in McLaren and not in Williams...
 

Because McLaren is a growing and successful company and Williams not so much?



#4806 noikeee

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 16:16

I'd say Schumacher is above both in the pecking order.

 

The Autosport podcast speculated that Schumacher would be in at Sauber in 2021 after a second year of F2.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Just need to figure out if Mick is the next Michael of the next Ralf.

 

At this stage I doubt he's anywhere near as good as Ralf, a multiple race winner that was at some stage the hottest prospect in F1.

 

Maybe Ralf's son is the next "big" Schumacher, he's started climbing the first few steps of the feeder series ladder now, I believe.



#4807 Ice1Fan

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 16:34

Why? Have you forgotten that another of Ferrari's key strategic strengths is the ability to give their highly paid No 1 driver an uncompetitive car?  Fortunately, the FIA are there to help them win at Monza....

So, won't you want the highly paid drivers to win championships in the car given? They did win races with those cars. And have enjoyed the No. 1 status quite well...

 

FIA are there to help them win at Monza? Where was FIA when Kimi was pushed outside the track at Austria and this year when the same thing happened to Charles at Austria and had their wins taken away from them?



#4808 potmotr

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 16:35

At this stage I doubt he's anywhere near as good as Ralf, a multiple race winner that was at some stage the hottest prospect in F1.

 

Maybe Ralf's son is the next "big" Schumacher, he's started climbing the first few steps of the feeder series ladder now, I believe.

 

I dunno, let's see what Mick can do in his second season of F2.

 

He seems to be good at learning then making big steps.

 

But I take your point, Ralf had proper speed.


Edited by potmotr, 10 September 2019 - 16:36.


#4809 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 17:37

Perhaps Kvyat is an outside option for Williams? Doesn’t he still have some backing from Acronis? Russia is a big market, who knows how much more money Kvyat can bring to them?

#4810 keeppari

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 17:49

Impossible to kill a career such as his. That golden legacy is secured.

Alain Prost got fired from Ferrari. Who remembers or cares about that these days?

Then again Prost was competitive wherever he went and against whoever happened to be his teammate (and he had some pretty damn good ones).

Sure, Lewis has a ton of wins, titles and whatever. Most of those have come driving dominant cars with average guys at best as a teammate. Not his fault ofc, but far less impressive than what Prost has achieved.

Better comparison would be certain another 4x WDC driving for Ferrari who also picked up his titles in similar fashion. Not doing any favors for his career or legacy wearing red overalls.

#4811 sopa

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 18:26

What concerns the Ferrari junior ladder, Mick Schumacher may indeed make it into F1 before Shwartzman, but I'm not convinced he is the more talented one. If they are paired in F2 next year, it will be Mick with an experience advantage once again - second season in the series vs first one.



#4812 Viryfan

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 18:32

What concerns the Ferrari junior ladder, Mick Schumacher may indeed make it into F1 before Shwartzman, but I'm not convinced he is the more talented one. If they are paired in F2 next year, it will be Mick with an experience advantage once again - second season in the series vs first one.

 

I don't see how Robert showed more spark than Mick to be honest.

 

Yes Robert seems to be more adaptive to categories (even if Robert was blown away by Norris in the same team in Formula Renault and got beaten by Fenestraz with a better car than Sacha) but when Mick gets on with it, i don't see much difference.



#4813 Jellyfishcake

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 18:53

What concerns the Ferrari junior ladder, Mick Schumacher may indeed make it into F1 before Shwartzman, but I'm not convinced he is the more talented one. If they are paired in F2 next year, it will be Mick with an experience advantage once again - second season in the series vs first one.

 

 

I don't see how Robert showed more spark than Mick to be honest.

 

Yes Robert seems to be more adaptive to categories (even if Robert was blown away by Norris in the same team in Formula Renault and got beaten by Fenestraz with a better car than Sacha) but when Mick gets on with it, i don't see much difference.

 

 

It's funny how perception works isn't it, having first seen Shwartzman in Formula Renault in 2016 (when Norris won) it wasn't until the final third of last year I really rated him at all, but then this season he has continued that good run and looks mega in Formula 3, compared to Schumacher  who has had a so so season in F2, partly through his own fault and partly bad luck. 

 

If the roles had been reversed would people be writing lyrics about Schumi who would have had back to back F3 titles. 

 

The step from old Formula 3 to Formula 2 is much harder I think than going from old GP3 to Formula 2 and so something that should be noted with rookie drivers, it's why people say Norris (despite being runner-up) didn't match peoples expectations last season in Formula 2.

 

Either way, depending on how 2020 and 2021 go at the moment I wouldn't be too surprised if both are in the Alfa seats by 2022 (Mick in 2021 and Robert joining in 2022)



#4814 Montie

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 19:26

Agreed, he needs to break free and stand on his own two feet.
Wasn't he linked to Haas?


Only the media speculations, Haas has not shown any interest.

#4815 Touchdown

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 19:32

At this stage I doubt he's anywhere near as good as Ralf, a multiple race winner that was at some stage the hottest prospect in F1.

 

Maybe Ralf's son is the next "big" Schumacher, he's started climbing the first few steps of the feeder series ladder now, I believe.

Agreed that Ralf was a severely underrated driver - if he wasn't Michael's brother he wouldn't get nearly as hard a time as he does.

 

If Mick is as good as his uncle he'll have a pretty good career ahead of him.



#4816 potmotr

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 19:52

Agreed that Ralf was a severely underrated driver - if he wasn't Michael's brother he wouldn't get nearly as hard a time as he does.

 

 

If he wasn't Michael's brother I don't think he'd have got into F1 though... 



#4817 Touchdown

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 21:17

If he wasn't Michael's brother I don't think he'd have got into F1 though... 

I considered this too - possibly not, but his junior career record and subsequent speed when he got to F1 makes me think he stood a chance even without Michael.

 

I don't think his ultimate talent was that far off Michael's actually, its just Michael was far, far more consistent at delivering it.

 

But anyway, I digress...


Edited by Touchdown, 10 September 2019 - 21:17.


#4818 speedx

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:34

Dr. Marko said that they are also looking outside of Red Bull for the next years driver, but there is nobody at the moment who is good enough for Red Bull. He said that they know how fast Daniel is and that Hulk is not beating him. They will probably stay with their juniors.

So Hulk can go to Haas, that is the only seat available for him.

#4819 player1s

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:38

If he wasn't Michael's brother I don't think he'd have got into F1 though... 

 

Pretty much this. Lots of doors would have stayed shut during the junior series. Likely because most German companies wouldnt look at him.

Talent alone can only bring you so far. Look at Frijns for example. Was rated fairly highly during his junior career but never had the financial backing to make the push to F1.



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#4820 SonGoku

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:41

Dr. Marko said that they are also looking outside of Red Bull for the next years driver, but there is nobody at the moment who is good enough for Red Bull. He said that they know how fast Daniel is and that Hulk is not beating him. They will probably stay with their juniors.

So Hulk can go to Haas, that is the only seat available for him.


He is not interested in Hulk who is by far their best "outsider" option, the bar is so high that I doubt he finds someone. Just staying within the program again.

#4821 Anuity

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:44

Perhaps Kvyat is an outside option for Williams? Doesn’t he still have some backing from Acronis? Russia is a big market, who knows how much more money Kvyat can bring to them?

I don’t think Kvyat would be interested to change Toro Rosso where he can regularly score points for Williams that is regularly last. Unless he is ditched from Toro Rosso which at this stage is unlikely.

#4822 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:10

Many great drivers fail to progress past a certain level due to lack of funding or name. It's a pointy pyramid to climb and many takers for few seats.
Being seen as the "lesser"  Schumacher might not help. Mick could be the least promising one in their unfolding dynasty.

RBR need an exception driver if they are to keep both Gasly and Albon out of that seat next to Max. They may want RIC back but he didn't leave without reason. Hulk a lesser option, I can see that, they were spoiled with RIC. If they lose Kvyat, it could get Hartley-messy again for them. Kvyat to me seems like a viable option to partner with Max. He'd had some years in F1, had flashes of brilliance and has beccome quite dependable. Let down by his car more than the other way around this season. Even Ferrari might see his progress and go hmmmmm. Great second driver and considerable technical experience.

I'd love a season where RBR gives GAS, KVY and ALB all 7-8 races in the RBR next year. Perhaps even on their favorite/best tracks rather than one after the other with a stint of 7. They have the data to make that calendar within a day.



#4823 Thatfastguy

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:19

I don’t think Kvyat would be interested to change Toro Rosso where he can regularly score points for Williams that is regularly last. Unless he is ditched from Toro Rosso which at this stage is unlikely.

Staying at TR would be career suicide imo. TR’s only purpose is to produce drivers for RB. If Kvyat is smart he knows he’s only there to fill a seat as no talent is currently available. That could chance tomorrow and RB have shown they would drop him in a heartbeat if someone better is available. I wouldn’t be surprised if they dropped him mid-season again. At a team like Williams or Haas he would at least have some security.

#4824 potmotr

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:41

Staying at TR would be career suicide imo. TR’s only purpose is to produce drivers for RB. If Kvyat is smart he knows he’s only there to fill a seat as no talent is currently available. That could chance tomorrow and RB have shown they would drop him in a heartbeat if someone better is available. I wouldn’t be surprised if they dropped him mid-season again. At a team like Williams or Haas he would at least have some security.

 

I think Kvyat needs to be leveraging his Ferrari contacts and try and elbow Hulkenberg out of the way to get in at Haas.

 

Or try and take advantage of Hulkenberg hanging out for Red Bull seat. 



#4825 Lennat

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:59

I dunno, let's see what Mick can do in his second season of F2.

 

He seems to be good at learning then making big steps.

 

But I take your point, Ralf had proper speed.

 

All stupid jokes aside, Ralf was a very good driver. Who was clearly better inte early '00s? He was a top five driver in his prime IMO.



#4826 rodlamas

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:15

He is not interested in Hulk who is by far their best "outsider" option, the bar is so high that I doubt he finds someone. Just staying within the program again.


Only option for Red Bull other than their junior drivers is Vettel (and Alonso on a very long shot).

So if Vettel still thinks he can beat Leclerc within Ferrari (something we know it is impossible), Red Bull will have to stick with their drivers.

#4827 Goron3

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:24

Then again Prost was competitive wherever he went and against whoever happened to be his teammate (and he had some pretty damn good ones).

Sure, Lewis has a ton of wins, titles and whatever. Most of those have come driving dominant cars with average guys at best as a teammate. Not his fault ofc, but far less impressive than what Prost has achieved.

Better comparison would be certain another 4x WDC driving for Ferrari who also picked up his titles in similar fashion. Not doing any favors for his career or legacy wearing red overalls.

I'm pretty sure that, at the time of his retirement, Prost ranked 1st or 2nd in every major statistic in the sport. That's despite having, by far, the most competitive line up of team mates.



#4828 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:05

Staying at TR would be career suicide imo. TR’s only purpose is to produce drivers for RB. If Kvyat is smart he knows he’s only there to fill a seat as no talent is currently available. That could chance tomorrow and RB have shown they would drop him in a heartbeat if someone better is available. I wouldn’t be surprised if they dropped him mid-season again. At a team like Williams or Haas he would at least have some security.

Agreed. Kvyat (and Gasly as well really) look safe for 2020. But for 2021 surely Toro Rosso will put Yuki Tsunoda (Red Bull junior AND Japanese, so Honda happy) and Juri Vips in their cars.

#4829 theflyingwheel

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:15

Hulk career has been an interesting rollercoaster, it wouldn’t surprise me if somehow he gets a shot at Redbull but is more than likely he will be in the Haas, reading his F1 trajectory set us in an análisis of both missed opportunities and poor career decisions.

- Being Hulk
- You win in all the junior categories you take part of.
- Schumacher takes you under his wing
- The whole world has a lot of expectations in you.
- You debut in F1 but the car you drive is rubbish
- But that doesn’t matter because somehow you achieve a pole.
- But that pole doesn’t matter because you still get fired and replaced by Maldonado
- No one hires you for 2011
- You go back to the grid in 2012 in a midfield car
- Somehow despite the car you fight for the win in Brazil 2012
- Everything goes wrong and you crash into Hamilton
- By the end of the season you decide to sign with Sauber because they had a good car in 2012
- The 2012 Sauber car is garbage.
- Somehow this doesn’t matter and you qualify 3rd for a race.
- Ferrari gets interested in you.
- You start negotiating with Ferrari a deal for 2014
- They tell you that you are in and they only need to made a public announcement
- They end-up signing Raikkonen and they tell you by sms
- You are forced to go back to the team you left in 2012
- In 2014 you beat your teammate but he gets a podium somehow
- The next Teo seasons you teammate beats your fair and square while getting 3 podiums in the same car as you
- You decide to go to Renault because they had a big budget and they have won championship in the past.
- It was a disappointment
- In the end the team decides to replace you with the guy that replaced you in Force India

#4830 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:21

- But that doesn’t matter because somehow you achieve a pole.
- But that pole doesn’t matter because you still get fired and replaced by Maldonado

 

:confused:

 

The pole position didn't matter because Hulkenberg spun out in the race of his own accord.



#4831 noikeee

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:36

The pole position doesn't matter because Maldonado arrived with a bag containing the wealth of an entire old-producing country.



#4832 Viryfan

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:02

Hulk lost his seat because he spent too much time negotiating an increase in wages thanks to Wili Weber, then Pastor came.



#4833 rodlamas

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:42

https://www.autospor...enberg-decision - Haas struggling to decide in between Hulk & Grosjean



#4834 SonGoku

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:54

He is talking about growing and trying something new all the time in that article. To me it looks like they want Hulk.

#4835 noikeee

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 18:06

He wasn't going to get into F1, but since he's naturally been talked about a bit here, Nyck de Vries is out of the pool of available drivers for next season, as he's just signed for Mercedes in Formula E (next to Vandoorne).

#4836 jgrwill

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 19:23

https://www.autospor...enberg-decision - Haas struggling to decide in between Hulk & Grosjean


Hire them both....
And RBR could hire Kmag next to Max...

BANG 🏎👍

#4837 Marklar

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 19:47

Steiner just mentioned on a podcast that he hopes to make a announcement next week.

Also when asked if Pascal Wehrlein was ever a option he said that they only had interest to hire him after their first season in F1 (so for 2017). Wehrlein himself approached him this year to ask if they have interest but Steiner rejected him. The fact that he hasnt driven for two years and already had before that not much experience in the first place is the reason why he is not considered there.



#4838 Stallknecht

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 20:01

Steiner just mentioned on a podcast that he hopes to make a announcement next week.

Also when asked if Pascal Wehrlein was ever a option he said that they only had interest to hire him after their first season in F1 (so for 2017). Wehrlein himself approached him this year to ask if they have interest but Steiner rejected him. The fact that he hasnt driven for two years and already had before that not much experience in the first place is the reason why he is not considered there.

What podcast?



#4839 Anderis

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 20:03

:confused:

 

The pole position didn't matter because Hulkenberg spun out in the race of his own accord.

No, he didn't. He finished 8th in that race without any major mistake, just outpaced by quicker cars.



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#4840 Marklar

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 20:07

What podcast?

https://meinsportpod.../starting-grid/ (in German)



#4841 Beri

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 20:39

He wasn't going to get into F1, but since he's naturally been talked about a bit here, Nyck de Vries is out of the pool of available drivers for next season, as he's just signed for Mercedes in Formula E (next to Vandoorne).


A top drive for the lad! Good for him.

#4842 sopa

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 20:44

He wasn't going to get into F1, but since he's naturally been talked about a bit here, Nyck de Vries is out of the pool of available drivers for next season, as he's just signed for Mercedes in Formula E (next to Vandoorne).

 

Alex Albon signed for Nissan FE a year ago, before he had to be bought out for an F1 seat...

 

De Vries won't make it to F1 grid though... but looks like contracts in other series mean little if there is an F1 seat up for grabs. Heck, Ericsson even missed an IndyCar race just to sit in F1 garage for a weekend.



#4843 noikeee

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 20:50

Alex Albon signed for Nissan FE a year ago, before he had to be bought out for an F1 seat...

De Vries won't make it to F1 grid though... but looks like contracts in other series mean little if there is an F1 seat up for grabs. Heck, Ericsson even missed an IndyCar race just to sit in F1 garage for a weekend.


Well yeah but can we imagine Mercedes, of all possible employees, releasing a driver to drive against them in F1? Think how far they took their hold on Ocon...

#4844 taran

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 07:39

Alex Albon signed for Nissan FE a year ago, before he had to be bought out for an F1 seat...

 

De Vries won't make it to F1 grid though... but looks like contracts in other series mean little if there is an F1 seat up for grabs. Heck, Ericsson even missed an IndyCar race just to sit in F1 garage for a weekend.

 

I seem to recall Albon's exit from Nissan was far from easy. Red Bull had to negotiate his release with Nissan so his contract did what it was meant to do.

As for Ericsson, he was already Alfa Romeo's reserve driver when he signed his Indycar contract so perhaps being recalled was part of that deal.



#4845 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 07:44

Alex Albon signed for Nissan FE a year ago, before he had to be bought out for an F1 seat...

 

De Vries won't make it to F1 grid though... but looks like contracts in other series mean little if there is an F1 seat up for grabs. Heck, Ericsson even missed an IndyCar race just to sit in F1 garage for a weekend.

 

There aren't many good seats in F1 around, even with money it is a problem. If one of the top F1 brands wants you for their FE operation, you don't say NO. De Vries major weakness was tires and let that be no issue in FE.



#4846 statman

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:27

side note:

 

https://www.racefans...-mercedes-seat/

 

senior staff at Mercedes were lukewarm at first about the idea of Hamilton driving their car.....More than once we were sent back to come up with other ideas. For whatever reason, we were told to look at people like Nick Heidfeld again....According to Fry the team also considered Paul di Resta for the seat.

 

:smoking: 



#4847 Marklar

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:39

 

 

For whatever reason, we were told to look at people like Nick Heidfeld again, who was super-keen to get the seat, and repeatedly text me with photos of himself, his family and his dog in a futile bid to pique my interest.

Boy



#4848 Maxioos

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:44

Steiner just mentioned on a podcast that he hopes to make a announcement next week.

Also when asked if Pascal Wehrlein was ever a option he said that they only had interest to hire him after their first season in F1 (so for 2017). Wehrlein himself approached him this year to ask if they have interest but Steiner rejected him. The fact that he hasnt driven for two years and already had before that not much experience in the first place is the reason why he is not considered there.

 

If i look how large % of rookies perform and during tests lower drivers, i get the feeling the "experience" is often overvalued. It has some value, but a good driver in the 30's was most likely also a good driver in his begin 20's. And a driver that isn't a top driver in his mid/end 20's, most likely won't be it later in career either.

 

Lets take for example De Vries - Albon - LeClerc - Norris - Russel comparison. Their whole career they have been quite equal competitors (LeClerc seems most talented seen by them all). If De Vries wasn't taken out of the lead last year from a Monaco Win, the whole season standing would be much difference and for sure he would have finished ahead of Albon. Not saying they still are on same level and grow on same curve, but last years top 5 F2 was very close and quite equal and one DNF (out of win position) or not had lots of influence. (Ps. quick beside note, last F1 podcast with Albon is a very nice listening!!)

 

Lets then take a Hulkenberg - De Vries comparison. For sure in season 1 experience Hulkenberg would be a plus, but if De Vries is still on kind of equal performance recent rookies after a year, that plus for hulkenberg would be gone. What more pluses stay over? Same in comparison Wehrlein or Ocon, (lack of) "experience" shouldn't be their rejection point imo. Equal if for instance Bottas or Hamilton would get ill and needed replacement for multiple races, or just 2021 season to place Russel in that seat, or if Bottas wouldn't had got the extension, promoting him.

 

Imo. the performance level of top atletes are that close that experience makes just a small % of overall performance level.

 

Ps. If they keep Grosjean, i won't have them as one of my favorite teams anymore for sure. They already where downgraded by me by keeping him this year  :smoking: .



#4849 SophieB

SophieB
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Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:50

Boy

 

Want to see photos of the Heidfeld dog now.



#4850 1Devil1

1Devil1
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Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:52

Boy

 

Imagine would 'Quick Nick' could have done in those car. 5 WDCs confirmed  :smoking: