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Le Mans/WEC 2020 Regulations (and beyond)


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#3901 FLB

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 12:44

Oh for goodness's sake, I'd love to know where this is coming from...  :mad:  :mad:  :mad:

 

 

https://en.endurance...omment-bop-2023


Edited by FLB, 08 December 2022 - 12:45.


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#3902 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 13:41

Wouldn't this also help hybrid recharge?

 

Good point, but isn't the hybrid system designed to allow peak charge/deployment under normal conditions? I know the power it can add is capped and it's a pretty mild hybrid compared to LMP1, plus all the cars are pretty heavily bedded in at this point. 



#3903 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 13:43

Oh for goodness's sake, I'd love to know where this is coming from...  :mad:  :mad:  :mad:

 

 

https://en.endurance...omment-bop-2023

 

Penalties for Glickenhaus incoming... 

 

For those who haven't clicked the link, they're basically banning public statements that complain about BoP. 



#3904 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 13:51

I don't like the proportions of either car.

Such a long wheelbase and that short rear overhang don't look right, at least for me.

 

No doubt it will be functional but not very eyepleasing, (at least for me)

Am I the only one with such an opinion?

 

I think I like the looks more than you, but I agree that the proportions seem off. Did a quick search and it looks like the wheelbase on the Acura is 124", whereas something like the LMP1 Audi R18 was 117". 7 inches isn't a huge difference, but I think the bigger thing is that the area between the wheel arches is far less sculpted on these cars compared to older prototypes probably as a result of the drag/downforce rules. 



#3905 JHSingo

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 14:02

The usual FIA stance - "Ooh, look,manufacturers!  Goody goody!  Those are the people we want, not these pesky little oily rag privateers.  Let's ditch them.  Manufacturers, yea!!  Look how wonderful the WRC is now we have manufacturers leading it!"

 

When will they EVER learn?

 

I think, in fairness, that things might be slightly different this time. The fact that manufacturers are willing to sell cars (Porsche already is, others will likely follow) and they're affordable enough that privateers can actually run them without the imminent threat of bankruptcy, is surely only a good thing. There are already teams from LMP2 planning to step up, so (hopefully) there will still be a strong enough grid of manufacturers/privateers, even after some manufacturers inevitably pull the plug.

 

I suppose what the FIA is banking on is Hypercar/LMDh essentially becoming the "GT3 for prototypes" formula. In GT3, there are manufacturer backed and semi-works outfits, but the majority of the grid in a race like the 24 hours of Spa are privateer entries. The likes of Audi and Porsche have supported the class for so long, since they're able to turn a profit selling cars. 

If the costs can be kept down, and there's a good supply of customer cars available, then I see these regs being a success for years to come. 



#3906 ArnageWRC

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 14:40

Penalties for Glickenhaus incoming... 

 

For those who haven't clicked the link, they're basically banning public statements that complain about BoP. 

 

That's completely out of order; they have every right to complain. BoP is just another word for handicapping - and we see complaints in horse racing all the time from trainers who think they've been hard done to. 



#3907 Ben1445

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 14:49

I think this is why a lot of people didn’t want BoP in the first place

#3908 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 14:54

I think this is why a lot of people didn’t want BoP in the first place

 

 

But what was the alternative as long as a single engine common, mandatory to all engine configuration had to be avoided?? 

 

Fuel restrictions didn't work in the long run (Gp C)

Neither did air restrictors.  (Post Gp C)

 

So, what's left?

 

 

If you ask me, despite our excitement about the upcoming era, I fear that two still significanltly different categories going along with another and up against another can't be made to work properly.


Edited by Henri Greuter, 08 December 2022 - 14:55.


#3909 highdownforce

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 16:58

GT3 Premium kits will be optional
https://sportscar365...-not-mandatory/

#3910 BRG

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 17:18

I think, in fairness, that things might be slightly different this time. 

You're one of them there optimists that my Mamma warned me about, ain't you!

 

What was that saying about madness being the repetition of something expecting it to turn out different this time?



#3911 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 17:20

GT3 Premium kits will be optional
https://sportscar365...-not-mandatory/

 

Are the mfgs required to make one? If they all got together and agreed not to make them. Or make them purely cosmetic or something and sell em for a few dollars, we wouldn't have to worry about it at all.



#3912 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 17:24

This is interesting...

 

https://www.dailyspo...p-gtd-test.html

 

Acura has managed to provide WTR and MSR with two chassis apiece, so both teams have a spare on hand already, whereas JDC-Miller/Proton won't receive their Porsche 963s until April at the earliest. Given that Porsche were the first to roll out their LMDh by some margin, did Acura just source better suppliers to beat the supply chain issues affecting Porsche? How many total 963s are actually complete at this point? I think Penske will have 2 cars apiece for IMSA and for WEC, are they all on track already? 



#3913 FLB

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 17:41

This is interesting...

 

https://www.dailyspo...p-gtd-test.html

 

Acura has managed to provide WTR and MSR with two chassis apiece, so both teams have a spare on hand already, whereas JDC-Miller/Proton won't receive their Porsche 963s until April at the earliest. Given that Porsche were the first to roll out their LMDh by some margin, did Acura just source better suppliers to beat the supply chain issues affecting Porsche? How many total 963s are actually complete at this point? I think Penske will have 2 cars apiece for IMSA and for WEC, are they all on track already? 

 

 

***Porsche’s first WeatherTech Championship-based race car, which is sporting the No. 963 numberplate this week for marketing purposes, is chassis 114. Factory LMDh director Urs Kuratle explained that race chassis are designated with the number 1, with 14 indicating the number of Multimatic-built tubs that have been produced.

***Of note, the first six chassis, which were all designated as test cars starting with the number 0, had “some differences” in the production process but were “perfectly homologated” according to Kuratle, including a chassis from the stillborn Audi LMDh project that won’t be used in Porsche’s race car allocation.

 

Source: https://sportscar365...ay-notebook-13/



#3914 FLB

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 17:43

Err... 20 drivers, BMW? Really? (I assurme not all will be IMSA and/or WEC)

 

https://sportscar365...factory-roster/



#3915 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 17:46

 

So they have 14 chassis built including one "Audi", but can't get customer cars to their teams until April? I guess I should interpret that to mean that the limiting factor is non-Porsche component delivery, specifically the hybrid system? 



#3916 Ben1445

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 17:52

Are the mfgs required to make one? If they all got together and agreed not to make them. Or make them purely cosmetic or something and sell em for a few dollars, we wouldn't have to worry about it at all.

Sounded to me like they set some aerodynamic window for the GT3 Premium which would be more suited to Le Mans than the typical GT3 window, then found that some GT3s already fell easily within it.

What we might see is a manufacturer of one of the more draggy GT3 models choosing to offer an aero-modification via GT3 Premium which could help it be more competitive at Le Mans. That helps open the door to a wider pool of potential entrants.

At the same time, manufacturers of the slipperier GT3s which are already within that window are not being forced to make one just for the hell of it. But presumably if they want to make some special LM-spec thing for brand value or whatever they can do so.

Sounds like a fairly pragmatic evolution of the original idea to me, if I’ve interpreted right.

#3917 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 19:00

Sounded to me like they set some aerodynamic window for the GT3 Premium which would be more suited to Le Mans than the typical GT3 window, then found that some GT3s already fell easily within it.

What we might see is a manufacturer of one of the more draggy GT3 models choosing to offer an aero-modification via GT3 Premium which could help it be more competitive at Le Mans. That helps open the door to a wider pool of potential entrants.

At the same time, manufacturers of the slipperier GT3s which are already within that window are not being forced to make one just for the hell of it. But presumably if they want to make some special LM-spec thing for brand value or whatever they can do so.

Sounds like a fairly pragmatic evolution of the original idea to me, if I’ve interpreted right.

 

Makes sense. I wonder what current GT3s would struggle with the aero at Le Mans... the Porsche/Ferrari/Aston have been fine in pretty similar configs in GTE, the Lambo, NSX. and Mclaren seem pretty slippery, the AMG has been fast at every track... I'd imagine the M4 or the Lexus would need some help? Bentley is off international grids otherwise they'd be the obvious choice. 



#3918 Ben1445

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Posted 08 December 2022 - 22:34

There’s a Ford Mustang GT3 in the pipeline for 2024, isn’t there?

#3919 Secretariat

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Posted 09 December 2022 - 13:30

There’s a Ford Mustang GT3 in the pipeline for 2024, isn’t there?

Can't wait for it to be race ready.



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#3920 Victor_RO

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 11:30

Doriane Pin in an LMP2 for 2023... with all indications that this is basically an audition for a Lamborghini LMDh seat in 2024.  :up:

 

https://en.endurance...borghini-driver



#3921 azza200

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 17:22

2024 we will have the 6 hours of Qatar  :down:. Which is a rubbish track 

 

https://old.reddit.c...c_calendar_for/



#3922 thegamer23

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 17:36

Doriane Pin in an LMP2 for 2023... with all indications that this is basically an audition for a Lamborghini LMDh seat in 2024. :up:

https://en.endurance...borghini-driver


Awesome, she's really talented

#3923 Muppetmad

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 17:46

Apologies, I can't read the full article, so just to clarify, do we know who she'll be driving alongside at Prema? Prema were a one-car team this year, so would she be replacing Colombo to make Kubica/Delétraz/Pin? Or are Prema fielding a second car?



#3924 FLB

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 17:52

Apologies, I can't read the full article, so just to clarify, do we know who she'll be driving alongside at Prema? Prema were a one-car team this year, so would she be replacing Colombo to make Kubica/Delétraz/Pin? Or are Prema fielding a second car?

Not yet, but suppsosedly a Lambo driver. Endurance Info is also suggesting Daniil Kvyat to Prema: https://www.enduranc...en-lmp2-en-2023 (en francais)


Edited by FLB, 12 December 2022 - 17:53.


#3925 Viryfan

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 17:53

Apologies, I can't read the full article, so just to clarify, do we know who she'll be driving alongside at Prema? Prema were a one-car team this year, so would she be replacing Colombo to make Kubica/Delétraz/Pin? Or are Prema fielding a second car?

Two car team.

Doriane will be teammed supposedly with Bortolotti (lambo driver) and probably Caldarelli

Edited by Viryfan, 12 December 2022 - 17:54.


#3926 highdownforce

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Posted 23 December 2022 - 02:02

Who's who in the Lamborghini's LMDh effort

https://sportscar365...the-lamborghini

#3927 highdownforce

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Posted 23 December 2022 - 13:26

Trackside view: What the brave new world of LMDh really looks like

The Acura ARX-06’s standout feature is the wild noise it makes under braking, with an anti-lag system on its 2.4-liter twin-turbo V6 powerplant sounding like a mid-banking helicopter. Neither of the other two turbo-powered cars does this.

BMW’s M Hybrid four-liter V8 also packs twin turbos, but it’s the styling that truly catches the eye. It’s a party at the front, with its distinctive grill that certainly reflects its road car products like no other marque on the grid, and there’s a party at the back too, with funky triangle-shaped brake lights mounted at a jaunty angle.

Porsche’s 963 has a larger capacity V8 at 4.6 liters but doesn’t sound quite as ‘grunty’ as the BMW somehow. Here, the distinctive aspect is the aero-whistle at high speed, which suggests there is some underbody magic happening. Its flanks certainly resemble the mighty 919 that went before it, as they channel the air from the front end, past the Multimatic-built chassis and then around rear wheels.

But the true scene-stealer among the quartet, which WEC fans in particular are going to love, is the Cadillac V-LMDh. It’s as American as a can of full-fat Coca-Cola; its 5.5-liter V8 has no time for turbos to cramp its style or sound. The noise it produces is pure, ground-shaking thunder.

And it looks distinctive too, with its angular lines a stark contrast to its more swoopy rivals – again reflecting the sharp-crease design language of Caddy's street cars – but it’s worth pointing out at this point that the Cadillac shares its base chassis (called a ‘spine’ in IMSA-speak) with the BMW, built by Dallara.

Watching from trackside, the overall performance level is more ‘DPi-plus’ rather than an LMP1 of old. While I saw a Porsche 963 easily outdrag an LMP2 from the exit of a hairpin it was nothing like the insane rocket-like, four-wheel-drive launch of a Porsche 919 or Toyota TS040 from the slow stuff.


https://us.motorspor...like-/10409796/

#3928 JHSingo

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Posted 23 December 2022 - 23:18

 

 Watching from trackside, the overall performance level is more ‘DPi-plus’ rather than an LMP1 of old. While I saw a Porsche 963 easily outdrag an LMP2 from the exit of a hairpin it was nothing like the insane rocket-like, four-wheel-drive launch of a Porsche 919 or Toyota TS040 from the slow stuff.

 

I'm not sure this should come as a huge surprise - they were never going to be on the pace of the old LMP1s. That's been obvious ever since the regs were announced, and the target lap times the FIA/ACO have mentioned for Le Mans. Quite clearly they've had the collywobbles about the speed of a top class for quite some time, given their repeated (and rather depressing) attempts to slow the cars down. Kobayashi's lap record is likely to stand for a long, long time.  :well:

 

On a different subject - not sure if this has been posted here elsewhere already, but next year's Le Mans is officially a sell out - six months in advance!  :eek: https://www.24h-lema...-sessions-56957

 

Looks like it'll definitely have to be 2024 for me to go then....  :stoned:



#3929 FLB

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 15:34

Isotta Fraschini just became more serious: Graham Goodwin sur Twitter : ".@Vectorsport1 confirm long-term partnership with #isottafraschini to enter Tipo C #Hypercar in @fiawec and @24hoursoflemans as factory team Entry for 2023 will be submitted - team will also be responsible for test and development of the car https://t.co/7Yktf83Qti https://t.co/0Rny5vKUaj" / Twitter

 

For those who don't remember, Clauio Berro was the Scuderia Ferrari's team principal between Cesare Fiorio and Jean Todt.

 

 

At this stage, I think it's actually going to happen. I'm stunned. These guys aren't chancers.



#3930 highdownforce

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 18:29

LMP2 teams will have to upscale/upgrade to hypercar in order keep competing in the WEC/LM.

#3931 FLB

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 18:35

LMP2 teams will have to upscale/upgrade to hypercar in order keep competing in the WEC/LM.

From what I understand from various sources, at least one of them is thinking of actually downgrading/sticking to GT3 should LMP2 completely go away (Graff?)?



#3932 highdownforce

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 20:03

From what I understand from various sources, at least one of them is thinking of actually downgrading/sticking to GT3 should LMP2 completely go away (Graff?)?


There is always the choice of staying local (IMSA, ELMS, AsLMS) with LMP2 or LMP3 and not going to WEC

We had 23 LMP2 entries for Le Mans this year.

I don't see everybody moving up (HY) or down (LMGT3) so I fear most may step out for a while.

#3933 JHSingo

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 21:07

Isotta Fraschini just became more serious: Graham Goodwin sur Twitter : ".@Vectorsport1 confirm long-term partnership with #isottafraschini to enter Tipo C #Hypercar in @fiawec and @24hoursoflemans as factory team Entry for 2023 will be submitted - team will also be responsible for test and development of the car https://t.co/7Yktf83Qti https://t.co/0Rny5vKUaj" / Twitter

 

For those who don't remember, Clauio Berro was the Scuderia Ferrari's team principal between Cesare Fiorio and Jean Todt.

 

 

At this stage, I think it's actually going to happen. I'm stunned. These guys aren't chancers.

 

I hope this looks a bit more Hypercar-ish in the flesh. The renders currently just look like an old LMP1. 

 

Nevertheless, great to have another confirmed entrant on the grid. 



#3934 Anja

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 21:37

I hope this looks a bit more Hypercar-ish in the flesh. The renders currently just look like an old LMP1. 

 

Just like most of the new cars to be honest. Wasn't the aim of the hypercar designation to capitalize on the hype around road going hypercars, resembling something along the lines of the old GT1? Cause if so I think it's safe to say it's not happening.



#3935 EightGear

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 21:43

I still don't believe the ACO will let them in.

#3936 FLB

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 22:04

I still don't believe the ACO will let them in.

Which is why Vector going with them is a big deal. 



#3937 EightGear

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Posted 30 December 2022 - 22:40

That's good, hopefully they will be on the grid. That said, the Caterham/Marussia/HRT vibes are high on this one. They haven't even finished building the car yet so the timelines are extremely squeezed. 2023 will be a year of testing.

#3938 JHSingo

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Posted 31 December 2022 - 14:35

Just like most of the new cars to be honest. Wasn't the aim of the hypercar designation to capitalize on the hype around road going hypercars, resembling something along the lines of the old GT1? Cause if so I think it's safe to say it's not happening.

 

Good point - although I will say that the regs do appear to be working in terms of giving us cars that look significantly different from each other. Out of the Hypercars we've seen so far, you'd be hard pressed to mistake the Toyota, Peugeot, Ferrari or Glickenhaus for any of their rivals. 



#3939 ArnageWRC

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Posted 31 December 2022 - 15:36

https://forums.autos...e-championship/

 

There's now a thread for the 2023 WEC........



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#3940 Risil

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Posted 02 January 2023 - 12:26

Yeah let's all go there