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Le Mans/WEC 2020 Regulations (and beyond)


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#501 TF110

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 09:21

The pit stops will be equalized by timing. So hybrids will take longer to refuel since they get a better launch from a standstill. Hybrids also have their fwd boost activated at 120kmh and above so they don't have instant 4wd out of corners. They also have 600hp from the engine so their top speeds won't be as good unless they use that overboost. All the cars are going to be stupid heavy for a prototype (1100kg) too. My idea was 800hp for the engines with 600hp/200hp hybrid(s) limit and above 120kmh for activation. Cars weigh at 850-950kg. They went the wrong direction imo. Bop is stupid. Should just leave fuel flow meters like they have now. Bop is not good, it can be gamed and will be. Success ballast works in some series, but I don't think it should be in the WEC for the new rules. The cars will end up heavier than GTE's at the high end of penalties- 100kg.

 

Things I do like, wider cars- back to 2000mm. Freer aero. Better looking cars (imo the Valkyrie looks awesome if it's close to the AMR Pro). No mandatory hybrids. Different and LOUD engines than tiny turbos.



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#502 statman

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 10:17

 

some news from over the summer:
 
The Mercedes-AMG One won’t compete at Le Mans
 
Aston Martin Confirms Valkyrie Hypercar Will be Non-Hybrid
 
Brabham Considering Hypercar Despite Initial GTE Plans
 
Lamborghini Could Join Hypercar Class
 
ORECA Seeking 'Proper Position' on Hypercar by End of Year

 

 

regarding Brabham:

 

"It would be stupid if we did not look at it," Marks told Daily Sportscar . "It will take a bit of work to adapt the BT62 to the rules, but if we want to do something with it, then it would be heading for 'hypercar'." "It's an interesting time because manufacturers are moving towards electric and hybrid vehicles, we do not do that," says Marks. "The whole idea of ​​the rules is that it enables low-cost motorsport, and they want manufacturers to win something that attracts a lot of viewers, and the BT62 fits in very well."

 

:up: 

 

https://www.motorspo...rnziel-19090901



#503 ArnageWRC

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 11:01

Bop is not good, it can be gamed and will be. Success ballast works in some series, but I don't think it should be in the WEC for the new rules. The cars will end up heavier than GTE's at the high end of penalties - 100kg.

 

 

 

Success ballast, BoP, etc is Handicapping by another name - and shouldn't be anywhere near a supposed World Championship. It's a lazy way by governing bodies to generate exciting sport. Do a better job than your opponents, get hit with a 'penalty' of more weight. Well that's marvellous.....

In a national/club series, then I sort of accept it, as most of those are 'entertainment series', like the BTCC.



#504 Henri Greuter

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 15:41

The pit stops will be equalized by timing. So hybrids will take longer to refuel since they get a better launch from a standstill. Hybrids also have their fwd boost activated at 120kmh and above so they don't have instant 4wd out of corners. They also have 600hp from the engine so their top speeds won't be as good unless they use that overboost. All the cars are going to be stupid heavy for a prototype (1100kg) too. My idea was 800hp for the engines with 600hp/200hp hybrid(s) limit and above 120kmh for activation. Cars weigh at 850-950kg. They went the wrong direction imo. Bop is stupid. Should just leave fuel flow meters like they have now. Bop is not good, it can be gamed and will be. Success ballast works in some series, but I don't think it should be in the WEC for the new rules. The cars will end up heavier than GTE's at the high end of penalties- 100kg.

 

Things I do like, wider cars- back to 2000mm. Freer aero. Better looking cars (imo the Valkyrie looks awesome if it's close to the AMR Pro). No mandatory hybrids. Different and LOUD engines than tiny turbos.

 

 

Success ballast, BoP, etc is Handicapping by another name - and shouldn't be anywhere near a supposed World Championship. It's a lazy way by governing bodies to generate exciting sport. Do a better job than your opponents, get hit with a 'penalty' of more weight. Well that's marvellous.....

In a national/club series, then I sort of accept it, as most of those are 'entertainment series', like the BTCC.

 

 

Scream (V12 loud???)  as hard as you want but BoP and all of that stuff is simply not to avoid when you set up rules that allow lots of freedom.

Only in case you make rules that leave little to no freedom you can maybe do without BoP or wanything like it. But even then you might introduce somethign to finetune the field. The initial fuel consumption rules Gp C. had no BoP and once the ideal engine concept came up, no-one stood a chance unless a new ideal one showed up. And with the later ideal engines only accessible to factory teams, including the cars they were built into....

Imagine what could happened in the fuel consumption Gp C era (I discard those stupid "Gp C" atmos of '91-93) if initially Porsche had been handicapped in order to give the Cosworths (Of which the majprity of people believed they would have a big advantage in the first years...) a chance against the Porsche 956 and 962 and later on when the Jaguar V12 and Mercedes Turbo V8 took over control what would ahve been necessary to level them out against another and the 962s....

 

As for now, regrettably ACO and FIA and/or whatever other rule makers simply can't make up their mind about a set of suitable rules for everyone because there are too many parties involved and appealed onto to please then enough to participate.

Must admit however that I have no idea either what to do and what would be the best solution. If companies refuse to invest in certain prescribed engine concepts and/or PU concepts and only can be pleased if they can rely on something they work on or with already, that's it.



#505 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 19:11

 

Must admit however that I have no idea either what to do and what would be the best solution.

 

Easy.  Make LMP2 with the 2016 open engine regulations and 2016 open chassis regulations as the top class. Manufacturer teams can make their own chassis (instead of using Oreca, Ligier etc) but they have to sell it to privateers for a fixed price.  Manufacturer teams can have their own engines, but they have to be able to sell it to privateers for a fixed price.

 

All the LMP cars in one class battling for outright victory.  :up:   :clap:

 

Forget hybrids, not necessary.  


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 September 2019 - 19:19.


#506 Vielleicht

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 14:54

Glickenhaus have revealed a render of their Hypercar entry. Colour scheme and wheel rims giving a real Alfa Romeo vibe there.

 

Glickenhaus-Hypercar-renders-2019-1.jpg

 

Will be a 3.0L V6 twin turbo - non-hybrid  ( :()


Edited by Vielleicht, 19 September 2019 - 14:55.


#507 TennisUK

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 05:42

Presumably based on the Ferrari-built V6 TT in the Alfa Giulia QV...

Looks a bit weird, neither fish nor fowl (proto or roadcar).

Edited by TennisUK, 20 September 2019 - 05:43.


#508 BRG

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 15:24

 

Will be a 3.0L V6 twin turbo - non-hybrid  ( :()

Isn't this rather dumbing down thw 'hypercar' concept?  Does a BMW M3 count as a hypercar now?  I thought hypercars were stupidly extravagant things like the Bugatti Veyron with 12 cylinders and four turbos and 4WD?



#509 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 15:42

Isn't this rather dumbing down thw 'hypercar' concept?  Does a BMW M3 count as a hypercar now?  I thought hypercars were stupidly extravagant things like the Bugatti Veyron with 12 cylinders and four turbos and 4WD?

 

Everything fits, the FIA/ACO were so desperate for manufacturers that you can almost bring whichever car you'd like and call it a hypercar.



#510 Cornholio

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 15:56

Presumably based on the Ferrari-built V6 TT in the Alfa Giulia QV...

Looks a bit weird, neither fish nor fowl (proto or roadcar).

 

My first reaction at seeing it, was that if this was a new GTE car I'd think it looks amazing, while for the "prototype" category, a bit meh compared to what came before.



#511 Vielleicht

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 17:29

Isn't this rather dumbing down thw 'hypercar' concept?  Does a BMW M3 count as a hypercar now?  I thought hypercars were stupidly extravagant things like the Bugatti Veyron with 12 cylinders and four turbos and 4WD?

It has defintely gone through a number of evolutions from the original concept. It's a bit of a free for all now.

 

Supposedly they were going to allow fans to vote on a new name...



#512 Henri Greuter

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 17:33

Isn't this rather dumbing down thw 'hypercar' concept?  Does a BMW M3 count as a hypercar now?  I thought hypercars were stupidly extravagant things like the Bugatti Veyron with 12 cylinders and four turbos and 4WD?

 

Veyron has a 8 liter V16, `the other  Bugatti" EB110 (early 90s) was a 3.5 liter V12. Both are 4WD and  `quaturbo`


Edited by Henri Greuter, 20 September 2019 - 17:34.


#513 Mat13

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 17:45

My first reaction at seeing it, was that if this was a new GTE car I'd think it looks amazing, while for the "prototype" category, a bit meh compared to what came before.


Agreed- I will miss the LMPs.

#514 proviz

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 19:58

Glickenhaus have revealed a render of their Hypercar entry. Colour scheme and wheel rims giving a real Alfa Romeo vibe there.

 

Glickenhaus-Hypercar-renders-2019-1.jpg

 

Will be a 3.0L V6 twin turbo - non-hybrid  ( :()

 

 

 

This belongs to the pages of Michel Vaillante - not Le Mans grid!


Edited by proviz, 20 September 2019 - 19:58.


#515 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 00:54

Isn't this rather dumbing down thw 'hypercar' concept? 

 

 

1997-jaguar-xj220.jpg

 

A famous "hypercar" with a V6 twin-turbo engine.  :)

 

1994-Jaguar-XJ220-51a.jpg

 

Lord Nigell Buxingworth: "Mr. Salesman, half the engine is missing good Sir.  Where are my 12 cylinders arranged in a Vee!?"  :eek:


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 September 2019 - 00:57.


#516 Henri Greuter

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 07:38

 

 

A famous "hypercar" with a V6 twin-turbo engine.  :)

 

 

 

Lord Nigell Buxingworth: "Mr. Salesman, half the engine is missing good Sir.  Where are my 12 cylinders arranged in a Vee!?"  :eek:

 

Mylord, you get no less than two turbochargers for it in return, so still has the power you want, and a car that could be a little shorter but is still unusually long.....



#517 BRG

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 19:02

1997-jaguar-xj220.jpg

 

A famous "hypercar" with a V6 twin-turbo engine.  :)

 

That atrociously ugly and unimpressive lump was never a hypercar (not that the term even existed back then) nor was it even remotely a supercar.  Which was reflected by the market's rejection of it.  



#518 TF110

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 22:17

It seems that the photo of the Glickenhaus is only a rough draft or first image of the finished design. He posted that it would look close but a little lower on another forum.

Edited by TF110, 21 September 2019 - 22:20.


#519 FLB

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 23:03

That atrociously ugly and unimpressive lump was never a hypercar (not that the term even existed back then) nor was it even remotely a supercar. Which was reflected by the market's rejection of it.

 

 


Edited by PayasYouRace, 22 September 2019 - 07:42.


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#520 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 07:44

I love the XJ220. Georgeous car and with Le Mans pedigree.

 

These are the sort of cars that Le Mans needs at the top. The most extreme production cars around, not prototypes that are basically F1 cars with canopies and lights.



#521 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 11:17

Where to put the ballast for the Brabham to even reach 1100 kg starting weight?
So, so heavy.



#522 FLB

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 12:23

I love the XJ220. Georgeous car and with Le Mans pedigree.
 
These are the sort of cars that Le Mans needs at the top. The most extreme production cars around, not prototypes that are basically F1 cars with canopies and lights.

Yep! David Coulthard’s only Le Mans was with a TWR XJ220C.

#523 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:43

Where to put the ballast for the Brabham to even reach 1100 kg starting weight?

 

Well, under the fuel tank... in between the driver and the engine.  Low, central.  :)

 

A remaining margin of ballast can be used for balancing the car.

 

 

Yep! David Coulthard’s only Le Mans was with a TWR XJ220C.

 

"The XJ220C did, in fact, cross the finish line in first place, but it was later stripped of its title and disqualified after regulators discovered the car didn't run catalytic converters."

https://www.motoraut...eads-to-auction

 

Oh dear, what an oversight.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 September 2019 - 14:45.


#524 AlexPrime

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 15:10

ELMS was fun today, especially the final lap! Who would have thought that in a four hour race they will leave it for the final moments to attack...



#525 statman

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 15:12

https://www.motorspo...percar/4552885/

 

WEC extends LMP2 regulations through 2022

 

......The performance of LMP2 machinery will be reduced when they are joined on the WEC grid by cars from the new hypercar category that replaces LMP1 for the 2020/21 season...

 

And Hypercar regulations have been ratified.


Edited by statman, 09 October 2019 - 09:26.


#526 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 15:44

So LMP2 will be going for the overall wins, Hypercars close behind?



#527 statman

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 09:24

 

some news from over the summer:
 
The Mercedes-AMG One won’t compete at Le Mans
 
Aston Martin Confirms Valkyrie Hypercar Will be Non-Hybrid
 
Brabham Considering Hypercar Despite Initial GTE Plans
 
Lamborghini Could Join Hypercar Class
 
ORECA Seeking 'Proper Position' on Hypercar by End of Year

 

 

regarding Brabham:

 

"It would be stupid if we did not look at it," Marks told Daily Sportscar . "It will take a bit of work to adapt the BT62 to the rules, but if we want to do something with it, then it would be heading for 'hypercar'." "It's an interesting time because manufacturers are moving towards electric and hybrid vehicles, we do not do that," says Marks. "The whole idea of ​​the rules is that it enables low-cost motorsport, and they want manufacturers to win something that attracts a lot of viewers, and the BT62 fits in very well."

https://www.motorspo...rnziel-19090901

 

Gordon Murray’s McLaren F1 Successor Could Race At Le Mans’ Hypercar Class

https://www.carscoop...hypercar-class/



#528 Vielleicht

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 09:27

I think I'm just going to keep nice and quiet about my opinion of that T.50...



#529 TennisUK

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 13:22

I think I'm just going to keep nice and quiet about my opinion of that T.50...


Balancing the fuel consumption of a 3.9 litre v12 running at 12k RPM against a hybrid should keep the nerds calculating the BoP busy.

#530 TF110

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 19:44

So LMP2 will be going for the overall wins, Hypercars close behind?

No. They'll rev limit the lmp2 engines. So that'll slow them down by a second or so on non-LM tracks. I think hypercar will be slightly faster than current lmp2 is. What I'm surprised by is 1100kg being the minimum weight. Even 1000kg is high imo. I guess Aston can't make a real prototype with their funds and the Valkyrie is not getting much lighter.



#531 FLB

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 13:40

Manufacturers are still pushing for some kind of common ground between FIA WEC Hypercar and IMSA DPi 2.0:

https://sportscar365...-2022-adoption/