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Le Mans/WEC 2020 Regulations (and beyond)


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#551 Cornholio

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 13:03

Woah is that Toyota real or a render? If it’s real then that is absolutely amazing!

Edit: Pretty sure that’s a render - all of the other images I’ve seen of the car look a lot more dowdy, sadly.

 

The video above your post does show the more bland version at the start with the wraps coming off it, but video of the all black more prototypey-looking car on track follows. Maybe I need glasses and modern computer simulation graphics are that good (I'm not even joking), but it does look real to my untrained eye anyway.

 

Definitely wouldn't complain if that's the sort of car (or close to it) that they enter. My biggest fear of these new rules (besides the BOP that will render most technical development meaningless) is that aesthetics would take a nosedive with more plain GT-looking cars.



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#552 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 13:14

The video above your post does show the more bland version at the start with the wraps coming off it, but video of the all black more prototypey-looking car on track follows. Maybe I need glasses and modern computer simulation graphics are that good (I'm not even joking), but it does look real to my untrained eye anyway.
 
Definitely wouldn't complain if that's the sort of car (or close to it) that they enter. My biggest fear of these new rules (besides the BOP that will render most technical development meaningless) is that aesthetics would take a nosedive with more plain GT-looking cars.



to be honest, specially when I look to the grandstands and the people near the track, I get the impression I'm looking at graphics instead of real live footage.
Wished it was real because that car looks fantastic if it was a real car.

#553 Beri

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 14:05

This does look like real on track footage.

#554 ARTGP

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 17:49

I'm happy Puegeot is back, but lets hope they leave Olivier Quesnel, Bruno Famin, and all the disgusting race tactics behind....



#555 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 18:59

Nice to see another manufacturer joining in.



#556 JHSingo

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 19:07

The saddest thing regarding these upcoming rules as they are right now and things are developing is for me the fact that I fear that most of the interest for the category among the fans is not because of the cars we may expect. It is primarily for the noise of the least advanced, most oldfashioned, outdated, not of this age anymore announced entry within the series.
If it fails to appear or (whisper it) performs like the previous attempt of that manufacturer with a vehicle designed with outright race victories in mind, then what will be left of all excitement about the upcoming WEC formula over here?

 

:rolleyes:

 

Let people like what they like.

 

For me, one of the great things about endurance racing, and Le Mans in particular, has always been about the diversity of the cars that race there. All different shapes and sizes, open cockpit, closed cockpit (over the years), different engine configurations, and yes, different engine noise.

 

The mystic of the race would not nearly be as great for me, and I suspect for many others, if every car was a silent electric or muted low-number-of-cylinders turbo. Whether you like it or not (and it's quite clearly the latter, from your posting history) noise IS important to a lot of motorsport fans. Yes, the V10s and V12s of yesteryear are romanticized, but what's the problem with that? If more people want to attend Le Mans, or watch the race, because of the Aston Martin Valkyrie, what's the problem with that? Why is the Mazda 787B so fondly remembered? It didn't particularly move the goalposts on technologically that much, but it did make a phenomenal noise. For some people, that's enough.

 

Le Mans, to my mind, has always been more about the car than the driver. Ask people what their favourite Le Mans racer is and why, a lot would probably choose a car they like the look of, or liked the sound of, such as the fabulous Lola Aston Martin of a few years ago. I doubt many would choose their favourite car based on how environmentally friendly it was or whatever though...


Edited by JHSingo, 14 November 2019 - 19:14.


#557 Vielleicht

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 21:10

[...]

 

Le Mans, to my mind, has always been more about the car than the driver. Ask people what their favourite Le Mans racer is and why, a lot would probably choose a car they like the look of, or liked the sound of, such as the fabulous Lola Aston Martin of a few years ago. I doubt many would choose their favourite car based on how environmentally friendly it was or whatever though...

I would :wave: especially if it's fast and competitive.

 

Even that misses the point though. In endurance racing, you always want to be fast but equally you want to be economical with your fuel use gentle on your tyres. It just so happens that those things are also both more sustaianable traits as well. Sustainability and endurance just go hand in hand.

 

The worry for me is the Balance of Performance. Against the two confirmed hybrids, we'll see one manufacturer enter a huge non-hybrid V12 tuned down by 300hp or so which they will expect to... just be made competitive with the hybrids by BoP. Where's the fun in that?

 

Without the BoP I would expect they might have chosen to enter their smaller Valkyrie sibling, the Valhalla, and the V6T + KERS that comes with it. Betting on the best technological solution for the job is what I like about the challenge of Le Mans. I don't mind if people like the Valkyrie or even go to Le Mans just to see it, I just think it should finish wherever the technology it uses deserves to finish - be it at the front, 15th or in a smokey garage in the middle of the night. With BoP, I worry that this will not be the case.



#558 Vielleicht

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 21:11

Also, fantstic news to see Peugeot back with a hybrid. I feel like there's unfinished business from the 908 HYbrid4.



#559 JHSingo

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 21:27

I would :wave: especially if it's fast and competitive.

 

Even that misses the point though. In endurance racing, you always want to be fast but equally you want to be economical with your fuel use gentle on your tyres. It just so happens that those things are also both more sustaianable traits as well. Sustainability and endurance just go hand in hand.

 

The worry for me is the Balance of Performance. Against the two confirmed hybrids, we'll see one manufacturer enter a huge non-hybrid V12 tuned down by 300hp or so which they will expect to... just be made competitive with the hybrids by BoP. Where's the fun in that?

 

Without the BoP I would expect they might have chosen to enter their smaller Valkyrie sibling, the Valhalla, and the V6T + KERS that comes with it. Betting on the best technological solution for the job is what I like about the challenge of Le Mans. I don't mind if people like the Valkyrie or even go to Le Mans just to see it, I just think it should finish wherever the technology it uses deserves to finish - be it at the front, 15th or in a smokey garage in the middle of the night. With BoP, I worry that this will not be the case.

 

We all know that no matter how diverse they begin, manufacturers tend to diverge on one solution to a set of regulations when it becomes clear what that solution is. I therefore think having a BoP that at least attempts to level the playing field and allows different ideas and concepts to compete is, more or less, the perfect formula. GT3 works like that, a huge variety of different looking and sounding cars are able to compete closely.

 

And we can see it's starting to work here already as well. Aston Martin will be using a completely different concept to what Toyota will use, and Peugeot's will probably be different to that too. I think that's great, and wish that we should see it more in modern motorsport - it should be encouraged. And, if BoP is a necessary evil to control costs, so be it. I just want to see cool cars race, I don't particularly care which is the "most modern" or "most efficient" solution.

 

We don't (or I don't, speaking personally) want to see every car in the top class at Le Mans become a hybrid copycat that all look the same and sound the same - that's pretty much where we ended up with the hybrid LMP1s by the end anyway. Yes, they were impressive machinery, but they became pretty much the same - not helped by the liveries, either. And if that's what you want, well, there's plenty of single make series to enjoy.


Edited by JHSingo, 14 November 2019 - 21:28.


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#560 statman

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 14:10

 

some news from over the summer:
 
 
Aston Martin Confirms Valkyrie Hypercar Will be Non-Hybrid
 

 

 

new video:

 

 

A new video has been posted to Youtube with the Valkyrie prototype being demoed for customers earlier this month, there are a couple of factors holding both car and driver back:
 
Firstly there are the conditions, which are of the sort you might expect in Northamptonshire in November, compelling the driver to short shift before the engine gets close to its 11,100rpm redline. Then there’s the presence of a muffler, a fixture which won’t be present on the production version, but serves to dampen things further still.
 
Nonetheless, the drive-bys captured here give the best indication yet of how fantastic the Valkyrie should sound in its final form. And besides, it’s not too often that you get to witness a high-revving non-hybrid 6.5L, 1,176HP V12 in a new car these days, best enjoy it while we can!

Edited by statman, 02 December 2019 - 14:10.


#561 Vielleicht

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:26

Peuegot is teaming up with Rebellion

 

wec_reb_face_0.jpg

(https://www.autohebd...car-207677.html)



#562 Joseki

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:30

Lovely, render and partnership.

#563 Ben1445

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 14:21

Looks like a modern 905. Not that the final version will look like that, but hey.

#564 juicy sushi

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 14:29

Peuegot is teaming up with Rebellion

 

wec_reb_face_0.jpg

(https://www.autohebd...car-207677.html)

And if it looks like that then an awful lot of us will be very happy.  

 

I think they need to get the costs down a lot more, and find a way to make sure competitive customer cars are viable.  The DPi formula is coming close from the other direction, and it's really frustrating that the two cannot meet in the middle.



#565 Dan333SP

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 18:26

Looks like a modern 905. Not that the final version will look like that, but hey.

 

Definitely a good thing if that's where they end up. Unfortunately there's no way it'll sound anywhere near as good as a 905 :cry:



#566 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 06:46

Well, I'm sure this is not going to be at all controversial.....

 

FIA Mandates OEMs for Hypercar Class
https://sportscar365...hypercar-class/
 
"Privately-built Hypercars not attached to an automotive brand will be prohibited from competing in the top class of the FIA World Endurance Championship, it has been revealed.
The change of the regulations, which initially allowed independent constructors to build cars to the new-for-2020 ruleset, was confirmed in Wednesday’s FIA World Motor Sport Council meeting in Paris."


Edited by Vielleicht, 05 December 2019 - 06:46.


#567 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 06:53

John Hindhaugh's Twitter response:
 

Midweek Motorsport @specutainment · 6h
I've always said without definition of a "manufacturer" the ACO left themselves open to any Tom,Dick or Miggins of a brand paying for the best of Motorsport to design, build and run a car & embarrass the OEMs at Le Mans . This stops that, like OEMs requested with Lmp2 in
@IMSA

 

My view? If sales of homolagted hypercar entries to privateers are mandated as well then I don't think this is completely terrible, but it's still a stupid idea. We know Aston Martin at least plan(ned) to have private teams enter some of their Valkyries and it would be good to see that and more with the other OEMs. If it cuts privateers out entirely then they have not learned anything from LMP1-H.


Edited by Vielleicht, 05 December 2019 - 07:45.


#568 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 07:33

I think it’s a terrible idea. Motorsport is as much about privateers as about manufacturers. Have a set of rules and allow anyone to build cars to them. OEMs should be more embarrassed that they’re afraid of competition from outside their ranks.



#569 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 07:40

Seemingly there's a little bit of doubt over wether Glickenhaus will qualify for whatever definition of 'OEM' is decided on - their road cars use donor engines after all. If even a low volume, specialist road car builder is frozen out you're just restricting your grid size, surely.



#570 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 08:13

You’d have to go back quite a way in LM history to find anything other than at least a manufacturer-backed privateer or customer team.

Le Mans has deep historical ties to manufacturers, I don’t know why anyone was expecting a privateer/constructor revolution.

That said though, sounds like they are risking repeating the mistakes they made with LMP1.

#571 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 08:20

That or they’re plotting the future integration of DPi into the mix.

#572 king_crud

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 09:45

the privateers are what keep sportscar racing alive



#573 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 09:53

Correct me of in wrong, but doesn’t this just stop independent constructors/engine builders from homologating a car if they don’t have a manufacturer tie up?

Privateer customers should still be allowed, right? Along with independent chassis builders if attached to a manufacturer engine programme?

#574 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 10:03

The normal way for manufacturers to ensure they will not be beaten by privateers is to throw a **** load of money into the project, now that the category is going to be BOP'ed they had to find another way of making sure they won't get beaten by a privateer and it seems they have found one.  :down: 



#575 Kalmake

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 10:34

Hyper GT.



#576 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 11:20

https://www.fiawec.c...ier-league/6566

Will be known as Le Mans Hypercar (LMH)
Homologation under the name of a car marque
40 personnel Limit (43 for hybrids)

#577 Cornholio

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 12:53

I was already less than enthusiastic about the new category but the outright banning of non-manufacturers is ridiculous. It wouldn't have been so bad (still bad though) if LMP2 was still an open category. But basically, if you're an independent constructor that isn't one of the four chosen LMP2 cartel, you are essentially banned from competing altogether?



#578 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 13:51

I read it as...
Independent chassis constructor + independent engine builder would not qualify for homologation

Independent chassis constructor + manufacturer engine = qualifies IF homologated under the manufacture’s marque

The Sauber-Mercedes, TWR-Jaguars and so of the old Group C, as far as I can tell, would be the kind of set up to expect from this. But someone like ByKolles with an AER/Gibson engine, for example, would not be eligible.

#579 ezequiel

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 14:59

:well:



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#580 Myrvold

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 15:05

I think it’s a terrible idea. Motorsport is as much about privateers as about manufacturers. Have a set of rules and allow anyone to build cars to them. OEMs should be more embarrassed that they’re afraid of competition from outside their ranks.

They've done it rallying as well now. Prohibited any "tuners" and "non manufacturers" to make a rally car for the different R-classes. It's been like this in WRC and R5 for a long time, which is why the Mitsu Mirage R5 is only used in national rallies. Mitsubishi won't sign the papers.

But this removes any chances of people making their own R-GT car, we've seen a Finnish company making an Aston Martin rally car, that's gone now, and there has been interest in making more national-importer backed R2 cars, those are gone.

 

It's idiotic.



#581 boomn

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 16:23

Does this mean we could potentially see as few as 4 cars in the 2020 Hypercar class (2 Toyotas, 2 Astons)?


Edited by boomn, 05 December 2019 - 20:14.


#582 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 16:48

Six. Two Toyotas, two Astons and two Pug/Rebellion.

But Aston are keen to get additional customer entries I think. So maybe more.


Edited by Ben1445, 05 December 2019 - 17:39.


#583 proviz

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 17:10

No. Peugeot will not join before 2022. And with the way the world is turning it remains to be seen whether in a couple of years time they still feel "hypercar" is a formula to support. Much the same applies to Toyota, although in their case the corporate will is apparently dictated by one petrol head alone.


Edited by proviz, 05 December 2019 - 17:10.


#584 AustinF1

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 20:01

Shooting themselves in the foot. It's what the FIA does...



#585 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 21:31

Clarification on what is counted as a manufacturer (Sportscar365)

(https://sportscar365...hypercar-class/)

 

 

A WEC spokesperson told Sportscar365 that the definition of a manufacturer is subject to the approval of the FIA Endurance Commission through the car’s homologation process.

 

However, a competitor must have a letter co-signed by the car manufacturer’s representative and be “fully and legally entitled” to do so by their parent companies. 

 

Toyota, Aston Martin and Peugeot have been the first three OEMs to commit to the new formula, with both ByKolles and Glickenhaus having announced intentions of joining the grid in the launch season.

 

It’s understood Glickenhaus would be defined as an “automotive brand”.



#586 Myrvold

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 21:41

So it is exactly like the rally-BS. The Mirage R5 is built after the international R5 rules, they just hasn't got the signature from Mitsubishi, and thus it is not legal. It can be nationally homologated, and is so in Sweden, UK, Italy, Chile(!), Finland, NZ and Malaysia (at least it was once in the latter 3).

Though, it is an R5 car...



#587 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 22:35

So it is exactly like the rally-BS. The Mirage R5 is built after the international R5 rules, they just hasn't got the signature from Mitsubishi, and thus it is not legal. It can be nationally homologated, and is so in Sweden, UK, Italy, Chile(!), Finland, NZ and Malaysia (at least it was once in the latter 3).

Though, it is an R5 car...

To be fair though... national homologation is one thing, but do we really think it's perfectly acceptable for any old Tom, Dick and Harry to enter an FIA World Championship with an OEM's car without said OEM's permission? I don't think that's bullshit, I think that's just being fair. 

 

With LMH it seems like they want homologated entrants to have that road based ethos. If they allowed independent constructors to enter with basically a prototype and independent engine, there is no road link there and goes against the whole idea of the class, hence the independents being required to have manufacturer partner (which could literally just mean badging whatever said independent would have entered anyway with the name of whichever manufacture wants to back them). Let's be honest here, that's better than cutting out independants entirely (which was the other option). 



#588 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 22:37

To be fair though... national homologation is one thing, but do we really think it's perfectly acceptable for any old Tom, Dick and Harry to enter an FIA World Championship with an OEM's car without said OEM's permission? I don't think that's bullshit, I think that's just being fair. 

 

With LMH it seems like they want homologated entrants to have that road based ethos. If they allowed independent constructors to enter with basically a prototype and independent engine, there is no road link there and goes against the whole idea of the class, hence the independents being required to have manufacturer partner (which could literally just mean badging whatever said independent would have entered anyway with the name of whichever manufacture wants to back them). Let's be honest here, that's better than cutting out independants entirely (which was the other option). 

 

Yes. If they can buy said car and run it competitively within the rules, they should be able to.



#589 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 22:39

Well, I think the manufacturer's have a right to object to that. Plain and simple. 



#590 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 22:40

Well, I think the manufacturer's have a right to object to that. Plain and simple. 

 

If their car is for sale, they can't object.



#591 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 22:45

If their car is for sale, they can't object.

Well, they can because the FIA puts in homologation rules to stop someone doing that. And I have to say I do think that is fair. 

 

The car might be for sale but the competence of the team that runs it is out of the control of the manufacturer unless you have such a rule. I do think the manufacturers have the right to choose who runs their cars, especially in a World Championship. 


Edited by Ben1445, 05 December 2019 - 22:48.


#592 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 22:51

Well, they can because the FIA puts in homologation rules to stop someone doing that. And I have to say I do think that is fair. 

 

The car might be for sale but the competence of the team that runs it is out of the control of the manufacturer. I do think the manufacturers have the right to choose who runs their cars, especially in a World Championship. 

 

That's just an example of why I think there are too many rules in place to protect manufacturers from potential embarrassment, as if they didn't have enough advantages already.

 

In a production based series, then independents shouldn't need the manufacturer permission to run a car that they can buy and modify themselves. It's not fair for manufacturers to have a veto on the use of their wares like that, whatever level of competition. As long as independents are suitably identified as such, of course.

In a prototype series, then anyone capable of building a car to the rules should be able to come along and challenge.



#593 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 23:08

That's just an example of why I think there are too many rules in place to protect manufacturers from potential embarrassment, as if they didn't have enough advantages already.

It's not just potential embarrassment. You could have a case where a manufacturer wants to be in a World Championship for the marketing value and by some hushed up backroom dealing managing to get an independent team to run one of their market competitor's vehicles but never well enough to win, enhancing the marketing value. It's a protection against that sort of situation as well. Unlikely? Maybe... but no concern if you have a homologation rule in place.

 

In a production based series, then independents shouldn't need the manufacturer permission to run a car that they can buy and modify themselves. It's not fair for manufacturers to have a veto on the use of their wares like that, whatever level of competition. 

I disagree. 

 

As long as independents are suitably identified as such, of course.

Ok, could potentially agree to this but what exactly is 'suitable'? One person's suitable is different coloured numbers, while another's would be having a separate class for them completely. 

 

In a prototype series, then anyone capable of building a car to the rules should be able to come along and challenge.

LMH isn't really a prototype class, though. It's a ridiculous, BOP'd sometimes road based sometimes prototype-with-road-styling half-baked compromise of a ruleset. 


Edited by Ben1445, 05 December 2019 - 23:08.


#594 Stephane

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 06:56

What would have happened to the Prodrive developped 550 GT1 with this rule ?



#595 Vielleicht

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 07:55

Further Hypercar manufacturer clarification...
(https://racer.com/20...ypercar-ruling/)
 

- Customer privateer cars are eligable to compete, hence 'FIA World Endurance Teams’ champion' will be the awarded title, rather than a manufacturers' title
- Confirmed that the class is called 'Le Mans Hypercar' and not the previous iteration of 'Hypercar Prototoype'

- Each homologation entry will be looked at on a case-by-case basis by the Endurance Comission, with some flexibilty expected (i.e. speculatively no strict limit on production numbers etc.).


Edited by Vielleicht, 06 December 2019 - 15:39.