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Le Mans/WEC 2020 Regulations (and beyond)


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#751 Vielleicht

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 14:54

There's only two compelling reasons I can see Peugeot entering LMH over LMDh. The first is if they wish to showcase a bespoke hybrid system (which they've presuambly already done preliminary design studies for) instead of using the common, spec hybrid in the LMDh class. The second is if they think that being in LMH would offer them a better (or worse) chance of winning than LMDh, hence their interest in the intended BoP procsesses.

 

Getting the hybrid presence right longer term is going to be hugely important. I can see low cost, common hybrid units being the most attractive option now but I cannot see that being the case in five years and even less likely in so in ten. Who is going to be content with spending devleopment money on engines but not electrificaton by the end of the decade? The liklihood is that it willbe the opposite and they'd rather spend money developing electrification tech and not the engine. That's an issue that needs to be solved.



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#752 BRG

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 17:31

Rebellion have only one dealer in the UK - Frost's in Bond Street. If you don't buy your watches there you aren't in the target demographic.

Ah, so they are a sort of horological version of Rich Energy....  ;)

 

Remember that the rendering is the road car/race car in what he envisions. It's not final. There's gonna be more to the Glickenhaus by the time it shows up in September.

Call me cynical but I suspect there will be rather less to the Glickenhaus when it DOESN'T show up ever.



#753 Ben1445

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 17:42

Call me cynical but I suspect there will be rather less to the Glickenhaus when it DOESN'T show up ever.


To be fair to them, SCG do have near enough a decade’s worth of endurance racing experience building and running cars in the Nürburgring 24 Hours...

#754 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 19:02

I'm not convinced that they know what they are doing. They have announced a new new category before the new category has even turned a wheel in anger. They are trying to attract more new entries by alienating those who have invested in new hypercar entries. Do these people have no coherent plan for the sport?

Having said that I have never believe that endurance motor racing needs so many categories. The top division entry at WEC/Le Mans is frankly embarrassing and I just watched (some of) the Daytona 24 and the entry there appeared down too.


“Hypercars” were a sham from the very beginning, so it’s no big loss if the category goes away with a whimper.

#755 Ben1445

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 19:14

Have I got this right? 

 

LMH - 'Hypercars' 

Chassis: Build/modify your own 

Engine: Build/modify your own 

Hybrid: Optional - capped power/deployment 

 

LMDh - 'DPi 2.0' 

Chassis: Use one of the approved chassis

Engine: Build/modify your own 

Hybrid: Yes - common kit for all 


Edited by Ben1445, 14 February 2020 - 19:14.


#756 TennisUK

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 21:04

Have I got this right? 
 
LMH - 'Hypercars' 
Chassis: Build/modify your own 
Engine: Build/modify your own 
Hybrid: Optional - capped power/deployment 
 
LMDh - 'DPi 2.0' 
Chassis: Use one of the approved chassis
Engine: Build/modify your own 
Hybrid: Yes - common kit for all


Yes.

Now. What would stop Peugeot rocking up with a car entered in LMH. But using a Ligier LMP2 chassis as the basis of it. Indeed, what is is that might stop anyone building a LMDh and running it as LMH?
 

To be fair to them, SCG do have near enough a decade’s worth of endurance racing experience building and running cars in the Nürburgring 24 Hours...

I think they are more likely to show than Aston Martin.


Edited by TennisUK, 14 February 2020 - 21:06.


#757 RacingGreen

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 21:19

“Hypercars” were a sham from the very beginning, so it’s no big loss if the category goes away with a whimper.

 

I'm not a fan of spec chassis series and LMDh with it's common chassis and hybrid systems doesn't seem like an improvement to me. I hope both categories survive and have entries so we can see a variety of different cars racing against each other.



#758 TennisUK

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 21:26

I'm not a fan of spec chassis series and LMDh with it's common chassis and hybrid systems doesn't seem like an improvement to me. I hope both categories survive and have entries so we can see a variety of different cars racing against each other.

I dislike common chassis but both categories are rubbish because of BoP.



#759 FLB

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 01:51

Hugues de Chaunac (ORECA) says that he is having discussions with at least four 'Europe/United States' manufacturers and that it is '[…]not impossible that an Asian brand[…]' will join the discussions in regards to LMDh and Le Mans.

 

Honda/Acura?

 

https://www.enduranc...es-discussions/ (en francais)



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#760 TF110

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 04:43

Hugues de Chaunac (ORECA) says that he is having discussions with at least four 'Europe/United States' manufacturers and that it is '[…]not impossible that an Asian brand[…]' will join the discussions in regards to LMDh and Le Mans.

 

Honda/Acura?

 

https://www.enduranc...es-discussions/ (en francais)

I was thinking Hyundai. When he says join, I don't think it's a current dpi make he's speaking about. If not, perhaps Lexus/TRD, but that's more on the American side of Toyota...



#761 Vielleicht

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 12:13

Now. What would stop Peugeot rocking up with a car entered in LMH. But using a Ligier LMP2 chassis as the basis of it. Indeed, what is is that might stop anyone building a LMDh and running it as LMH

I was wondering something very similar myself, especially as the extent of LMH eligibilty in IMSA races is apparently not yet fully decided. My thought was would it be possible for Peuegot to use a P2 chassis with their own hybrid powertrain in the WEC and then run a derivitive LMDh customer programme using IMSA's spec hybrid to gain a return on investment in the hybrid as well as having a fully IMSA compatible North American presence?

 

I get the sense that Peugeot wants to race their own hybrid, otherwise the LMDh switch would be more or less a no brainer and they'd have made it by now.


Edited by Vielleicht, 15 February 2020 - 12:14.


#762 BRG

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 14:11

I think they are more likely to show than Aston Martin.

What, more likely than the Aston Martin that has won Le Mans outright and has been present in strength every year for the last 20 years or so?  Unlike Glickenhaus.  AM might not run the Valkyrie - indeed, I doubt they will - but they will be there in the other classes as always.



#763 Vielleicht

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 14:17

I'm sure the appearance of the Valkyrie was what was meant with that comment...

 

It is true though that Glickenhaus do have endurance race experience. I don't quite understand the doubt over their abilty.

 

1.jpg?itok=eNrYWQFr


Edited by Vielleicht, 15 February 2020 - 14:26.


#764 BRG

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 15:11

Molesey Football Club have played regularly in the lower leagues since 1892.  But I don't expect them to suddenly turn up in the Premier League.



#765 Ben1445

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 15:16

Molesey Football Club have played regularly in the lower leagues since 1892.  But I don't expect them to suddenly turn up in the Premier League.

What about if they made the Premier League teams wear brogues and carry a 20 kilo backpack? Something to... oh, I dunno.. balance the performance? 


Edited by Ben1445, 15 February 2020 - 15:53.


#766 Vielleicht

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 15:46

What, more likely than the Aston Martin that has won Le Mans outright and has been present in strength every year for the last 20 years or so?  Unlike Glickenhaus.  AM might not run the Valkyrie - indeed, I doubt they will - but they will be there in the other classes as always.

Ok. So, what do you expect will happen with the Glickenhaus project and why?



#767 Branislav

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 17:33

When comes unity next year or 2022?



#768 RA2

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 17:56

Isn't the IMSA prototype class restricted to road going engine?.

Is the same expected to continue with LMDh?

I would expect more exotic engines for LMH

#769 BRG

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 17:32

Ok. So, what do you expect will happen with the Glickenhaus project and why?

I suspect it is all smoke and mirrors with no real substance.  They will milk it for the publicity but when it comes to investing cold hard cash to put a car  on the WEC tracks, it will just evaporate.



#770 Nathan

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 19:16

Getting the hybrid presence right longer term is going to be hugely important. I can see low cost, common hybrid units being the most attractive option now but I cannot see that being the case in five years and even less likely in so in ten. Who is going to be content with spending devleopment money on engines but not electrificaton by the end of the decade? The liklihood is that it willbe the opposite and they'd rather spend money developing electrification tech and not the engine. That's an issue that needs to be solved.

 

Even Elon would find fault in this.  Hybrid is going to be the prominent form of propulsion for many years yet.  A hybrid is more efficient, cheaper and lessens the risk of battery supply issues.  Tesla doesn't have the ability to produce an infinite supply of cells and is now finding itself having to sell vehicles that maximize profit per cell - hence the truck with fat truck margins and the attempt to hit the fat profit SUV market.  It's why we don't hear about the big rig transport truck anymore.  It's a capitally inefficient use of cells.  Most cars sold in the world are small with razor thin margins.  Look how much BMW had to charge for a small city car. There is no talk of a Tesla city car.  

 

Tesla only produces 300,000 cars per year and is already having to make product decisions based on maximizing the cells they can make.  The auto industry produces 60 million cars per year.  And while I do support this can get figured out, your time frame lacks realism IMO.  If you asked Elon 'what is your biggest restriction to producing 2 million cars a year' he will say 'battery supply'. And that's not just because there are not enough battery factories.

 

I suspect it is all smoke and mirrors with no real substance.  They will milk it for the publicity but when it comes to investing cold hard cash to put a car  on the WEC tracks, it will just evaporate.

 

Publicity for what?  The guy has spent ten million+ just on one-off Ferrari's.  Why wouldn't he go the whole way with a car bearing his own name?


Edited by Nathan, 16 February 2020 - 19:19.


#771 Vielleicht

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 19:31

Hybrid will remain the main source going forward for a fair amount of years.  It will be a while before pure EV is more efficient and it minimizes the risk related to the battery supply problem Mr. Musk alludes to.  You can't ignore 90% of your market because 10% has become the fashionable flavour.

Full electrification is not the main thrust of my argument, but indeed rather more in sticking with the hybrid platform within a converging sportscar top class ruleset.

 

LMDh, like DPi, has been formulated with keeping development costs low. For that reason a common, spec hybrid has been chosen as the best option to introduce hybrid to the class without increasing development costs. This seems to suit manufacturers just fine right now, but will that be the case in the future? If the manufacturers decide they would like to develop/race electrification tech more than they would the ICE but not increase costs of entry, the best option might be to switch the two powertrain elements around and have spec (or selection of homolgated) ICEs onto which individaul hybrid units are added. It's exactly the same concept, just with a shift in developement focus.



#772 Dan333SP

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 16:25

Hypercar is suddenly in serious trouble-

 

https://racer.com/20...percar-program/



#773 Dan333SP

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 16:28

I can imagine Toyota will be rightfully pissed that they spent lots of time and money developing a new car to new regulations, only to end up being (again) the only manufacturer on the grid. I honestly can see the WEC turning into an LMP2/GTE series only, which will inevitably lead to its collapse.



#774 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 16:41

I can imagine Toyota will be rightfully pissed that they spent lots of time and money developing a new car to new regulations, only to end up being (again) the only manufacturer on the grid. I honestly can see the WEC turning into an LMP2/GTE series only, which will inevitably lead to its collapse.


I think the opposite. LMP2/GTE is the only way for this thing to ever be sustainable. There is not enough money nor interest in endurance sportscar racing to run these overengineered vaccuum cleaners that the green brigade champions.

#775 Ben1445

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 16:46

I think the opposite. LMP2/GTE is the only way for this thing to ever be sustainable. There is not enough money nor interest in endurance sportscar racing to run these overengineered vaccuum cleaners that the green brigade champions.

The racing version of the Valkyrie was going to be a non-hybrid 6.5L V12, yet here we are with an imminent cancellation on the cards. 



#776 boomn

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 16:47

I can imagine Toyota will be rightfully pissed that they spent lots of time and money developing a new car to new regulations, only to end up being (again) the only manufacturer on the grid. I honestly can see the WEC turning into an LMP2/GTE series only, which will inevitably lead to its collapse.

I agree that Toyota will be upset.  However they do appear to be taking an economical and cautious approach to the new regulations by taking their hypercar drivetrain directly from their current LMP1 car, and probably many more parts as well.  Their hypercar seems to be a repackaged and restyled TS050, though that takes time and money to accomplish too



#777 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 17:05

Hypercar is suddenly in serious trouble-

 

https://racer.com/20...percar-program/

It’s not surprising since the alignment with DPI that now offers the same chances to win for a lot less. It’s a shame because Hypercar was going to offer something new in sports car racing.



#778 muramasa

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 17:06

 

Not many things are more predictable and clear from the beginning than Aston Martin cancelling LMH. Glickenhaus is literally a poster which says "we hint but no way gonna do bleh" as well. Peugeot will defo not enter as well, because with LMDh and future single formula in horizon, why would anyone bother to enter LMH from now? Such no brainer to enter LMDh first to get operational knowledge or maybe better to wait for the single formula reg finalized.  Hypercar was farce in its inception period already, shouldnt have happened in the first place. Why ACO took AM serious is beyond me, you do not trust anyone just because they come to the table, very basic.

Perhaps only way to salvage LMH is to scrap the 20 or 50 production per year of roadcar version thing and ask and pay for Toyota to do customer supply to 2 or 3 other teams. Perhaps still possible to make it in time for inaugural race in August.



#779 Peat

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 17:20

The coming and going of manufacturers in the top echelons of sportscar racing is to be expected.

They are just getting really efficient now by going before they came!


Edited by Peat, 18 February 2020 - 17:20.


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#780 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 17:27

Also not entirely surprising given the recent announcement of the Aston brand adorning some F1 cars in the near future.

 

If the cancellation is confirmed that leaves 2020-21 loooking hardly better than what we have right now. You would have thought that the nuclear option now to give Toyota some competiton would be to invite current DPis to come and play before LMDh gets off the ground...


Edited by Vielleicht, 18 February 2020 - 17:30.


#781 FLB

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 17:38

I can't link, but there is an article on enduranceinfo.com saying that Peugoet will decide on LMH vs LMDh by the end of March.



#782 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 17:43

^ Sportscar365 is saying basically the same thing, when the LMDh technical details are publsihed: https://sportscar365...-hypercar-lmdh/
 

“Our strategy for Peugeot Sport is the energy transition from a pure ICE to electrified vehicles,” said Finot.

“Our proposal is to demonstrate that low emission vehicles can still offer the fun and pleasure of driving. We will do that with the Peugeot Sport engineering line.

“In another iconic way of demonstrating this, we have decided to do a hybrid for the [sports car] program.

“In this way, it’s not mandatory for us to develop all components but it’s mandatory to demonstrate how, as on the road car, we are able to manage the control-command of the electrified powertrain.”


Edited by Vielleicht, 18 February 2020 - 17:50.


#783 muramasa

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 17:43

 

It's been SO clear since new management went IPO in London stock exchange several years back, they were really losing sense and sanity by starting major sponsorship in top F1 team, taking about F1 PU, launching new models (both GT3 and roadcar), such expensive non profit excursions like Valkyrie with RBT, entering DTM, trying to do LMH, etc etc all at once or one after another in the space of few years. Blimey. Anyone could see it's unsustainable, you could only get appalled, it's as if they were trying to commit suicide, or intended to deceive investors to get taken over by someone else on purpose from the very beginning.



#784 Joseki

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 17:52

With hypercar being limited to Toyota there are going to be all sort of political pressures behind the BoP at Le Mans.



#785 TennisUK

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 18:00

What, more likely than the Aston Martin that has won Le Mans outright and has been present in strength every year for the last 20 years or so? Unlike Glickenhaus. AM might not run the Valkyrie - indeed, I doubt they will - but they will be there in the other classes as always.


Um. Yeah.

#786 Ben1445

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 18:32

Loose connection here but here's Glickenhaus's 004C carrying out a shakedown. It's the successor to the 003C programme and should race at the N24 this year in the SP-X class to GT3 regs. They hope to eventually sell enough road versions to be homologated as a GT3, apparently. 

 

 

Can't say what this all means for their 007 Hypercar, especially if Aston Martin do cancel the Valkyrie LMH. But Glickenhaus aren't exactly a vapourware racecar builder. 



#787 Dan333SP

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 18:41

Honestly, my greatest disappointment in this announcement is the fact that we will most likely never again see a top-level V12 powered prototype. Hell, V12-powered anything, given that the Vantage GT3 is now turbo. Guess those are now consigned to the dustbin of historic racing.



#788 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 18:44

 

Can't say what this all means for their 007 Hypercar, especially if Aston Martin do cancel the Valkyrie LMH. But Glickenhaus aren't exactly a vapourware racecar builder. 

 

Well there's no way they'll be allowed to call it the 007. Not just because Aston Martin are associated with James Bond of course, but these trademarks tend to be quite well protected. Examples include the Porsche Carreras (906 - Peugeot), the Jordan 191 (911 - Porsche) and the Ferrari 150th Italia (F150 - Ford).



#789 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 18:52

Motorsport.com is referring to the Aston decision as a postponement rather than a cancellation

https://www.motorspo...percar/4687594/



#790 muramasa

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 18:53

That Glickenhaus is a cheat car. GT classes itself is a sham with outright illegal cars like Ford GT and Glickenhaus being allowed to race, let Porsche or Audi or even Nissan do the same and they would just blow away. If Glickenhaus is serious racer they would stick to it, and if Glickenhaus can ever be half competitive in LMH that would only prove LMH framework is a fail too.



#791 TennisUK

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 19:02

Motorsport.com is referring to the Aston decision as a postponement rather than a cancellation

https://www.motorspo...percar/4687594/

Surely no one realistically expects it to appear now... the company is struggling financially - and will be putting all it's money into staying afloat, then developing and marketing the SUV. Marketing spend will be on F1. Hopefully the gentlemen drivers will pay enough to keep the GTE team racing, but GTE itself is far too expensive for a BoP 'formula'.



#792 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 19:07

Surely no one realistically expects it to appear now... the company is struggling financially - and will be putting all it's money into staying afloat, then developing and marketing the SUV. Marketing spend will be on F1. Hopefully the gentlemen drivers will pay enough to keep the GTE team racing, but GTE itself is far too expensive for a BoP 'formula'.

I would not be surprised to hear a postponement announcement this week followed by a flat cancellation sometime in the next 12 months I suppose. I was just noting that not all reporting on this is consistent.



#793 Dan333SP

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 19:49

That Glickenhaus is a cheat car. GT classes itself is a sham with outright illegal cars like Ford GT and Glickenhaus being allowed to race, let Porsche or Audi or even Nissan do the same and they would just blow away. If Glickenhaus is serious racer they would stick to it, and if Glickenhaus can ever be half competitive in LMH that would only prove LMH framework is a fail too.

Weird take. The SCG is illegal in international GT competition because they haven't built enough road cars to be homologated. The Ford clearly is based on a street car, even if it's a supercar optimized for the track, but how is that any different than a Ferrari 488? If anything, the Porsche RSR racing today is much further removed from its road-going equivalent than anything else in the GTE class, Ford included.



#794 l8apex

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 19:51

So two more years of Toyota vs nobody in the top class at Le Mans?

 

The WEC better bring the DPi rules forward a year or ditch Hypercars so LMP2 is the top class for one year.  It's stupid having zero racing for the overall and makes the series look terrible.

 

At least if you had DPi or LMP2 cars as the top class, there would be a good field size and a real race for the overall victory.


Edited by l8apex, 18 February 2020 - 19:53.


#795 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 20:11

Hypercar is suddenly in serious trouble-

 

https://racer.com/20...percar-program/

Can't say I'm surprised.

Recent developments to bring more constructors together within a more common fomula and still having these Hypercars standing alone against all of these.

And all of that Aston Martin - Racing Point etc going on as well.

I'm more surprised the catergory wasn't scrapped by ACO in attempt to create even more common ground for the constructors but one of the entrants seeing the light themselves.

 

Anyway, perhaps for the better never to see that thing on a race track. A production car of 1000+ hp being turned into a BOP'ed version racing car with less power than the standard version!

I can't imagine how many racing cars inspired on "street" (Cough cough cough) legal cars were less powerful than the cars they were derived from but compared with the opposite it can't be many!



#796 TennisUK

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 20:37

Anyway, perhaps for the better never to see that thing on a race track. A production car of 1000+ hp being turned into a BOP'ed version racing car with less power than the standard version!

I can't imagine how many racing cars inspired on "street" (Cough cough cough) legal cars were less powerful than the cars they were derived from but compared with the opposite it can't be many!

Well, the Mclaren F1 for one. Which not coincidentally is probably the closest equivalent to the AM Valkyrie there has been...



#797 boomn

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 20:49

Anyway, perhaps for the better never to see that thing on a race track. A production car of 1000+ hp being turned into a BOP'ed version racing car with less power than the standard version!

I can't imagine how many racing cars inspired on "street" (Cough cough cough) legal cars were less powerful than the cars they were derived from but compared with the opposite it can't be many!

Most of current generation GT3 cars make less power in their BOP'ed race form than their street versions, though not that large of a difference.  The latest versions and special editions of the street cars are often around 700hp now, while average GT3 BOP is somewhere around 550hp


Edited by boomn, 18 February 2020 - 20:56.


#798 stewie

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 21:30

Surely just make DPi cars the top class in WEC which enables cars to race on both sides of the Atlantic, and be done with it. Not as technically exciting but chances of much bigger fields in the top category. 

 

LMP2 for cheaper, single chassis or customer type cars and then the existing GTE Pro / Am.



#799 TennisUK

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 21:38

Surely just make DPi cars the top class in WEC which enables cars to race on both sides of the Atlantic, and be done with it. Not as technically exciting but chances of much bigger fields in the top category. 

 

LMP2 for cheaper, single chassis or customer type cars and then the existing GTE Pro / Am.

Not much use for June as there isn't really time to put together a new DPI programme. And of the three 'existing' DPI 'manufacturers' two (Cadillac and Acura) don't sell cars outside America and Mazda don't have any money to race (it's funded by the North American arm of Mazda).



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#800 stewie

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 21:42

Not much use for June as there isn't really time to put together a new DPI programme. And of the three 'existing' DPI 'manufacturers' two (Cadillac and Acura) don't sell cars outside America and Mazda don't have any money to race (it's funded by the North American arm of Mazda).

Maybe not for this June, but after that surely it's cheaper for anyone else to buy into DPi regs than try yet again to make some top level 'WEC' class.