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Le Mans/WEC 2020 Regulations (and beyond)


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#51 Joseki

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 10:35

Which manufacturers want the current or “hypercar” regulations? Nobody.


We will know this only at the start of the Silverstone 4h 2020.

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#52 Vielleicht

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 13:43

Well, that's proably a no from McLaren at least initially. Though with the state of the F1 team should we be surprised?

https://sportscar365...-regs-for-2020/

 

Apparently Toyota and Aston Martin are most interested with Ferrari and BMW also hanging on.



#53 Nonesuch

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 15:00

Which manufacturers want the current or “hypercar” regulations? Nobody.

 

There is no 'the' regulations. It's an ongoing discussion the ACO has with manufacturers.

 

Ferrari, Toyota, BMW, and Aston Martin are involved. Ford is a bit on/off.

 

McLaren showed some interest, but their experience at this level is 20+ years old and they might not want to make the jump up from GT3.

 

Some more racing-specific manufacturers are also thought to be involved, either for full cars or parts.



#54 proviz

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 16:11

There's still the chance of all this nonsense happily imploding before it becomes reality.



#55 Ben1445

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 16:41

This all feels like a medium-term stop gap to me. The ACO know that big changes to the automotive sector are coming, and that reducing the size of the hybrid is going against their overall direction. So these regulations can't be intended to last. They just need something vaguely cool to tide them over (and I dare say that DPi wouldn't actually be the best thing for that). The ACO have their declared goal of enabling zero emissions by 2024. All options from here on out are going to be meandering in that direction. I strongly suspect that means the days of pure ICE in the top prototype class are severely numbered. 

 

There's still the chance of all this nonsense happily imploding before it becomes reality.

 

What do you want out of prototype racing? (say return to the days of Group C and I'll tickle you to death) 



#56 Vielleicht

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 21:23

I'm going to go a bit off the wall here. But.

 

In 2017, whilst the now abandoned next-gen LMP1-H rules were proposed and subsequently collapsing as Porsche pulled out... Peugeot committed to WRX influenced by it having plans to go electric in 2020, having previously been engaged in discussions about the future of LMP1.

 

Peugeot pulled out of WRX last week becuase the eWRX transition has been delayed. 

 

They also announced the development of a new range of high-performance plug-in hybrid vehicles from 2020.


Edited by Vielleicht, 22 October 2018 - 21:25.


#57 Cornholio

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 01:20

What do you want out of prototype racing? (say return to the days of Group C and I'll tickle you to death) 

 

Not addressed to me but as I strongly share the quoted post's sentiments I'll bite.

 

Quite simply I want prototypes to be prototypes. Not GTs, road-styled silhouettes or '17 P2-style specmobiles. Everything else (level of technology etc.) I'd happily compromise on for the above.



#58 proviz

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 06:55

This all feels like a medium-term stop gap to me. The ACO know that big changes to the automotive sector are coming, and that reducing the size of the hybrid is going against their overall direction. So these regulations can't be intended to last. They just need something vaguely cool to tide them over (and I dare say that DPi wouldn't actually be the best thing for that). The ACO have their declared goal of enabling zero emissions by 2024. All options from here on out are going to be meandering in that direction. I strongly suspect that means the days of pure ICE in the top prototype class are severely numbered. 

 

 

What do you want out of prototype racing? (say return to the days of Group C and I'll tickle you to death) 

 

Absolutely no return to any period in the past! The fastest category in WEC has to reflect progress, not hark back to days gone by.

I would be fine with either pure prototypes (with relevant technology and aerodynamics only reined in in the interests of safety) or something like Super GT.


Edited by proviz, 23 October 2018 - 06:57.


#59 Ben1445

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 07:11

Not addressed to me but as I strongly share the quoted post's sentiments I'll bite.

 

Quite simply I want prototypes to be prototypes. Not GTs, road-styled silhouettes or '17 P2-style specmobiles. Everything else (level of technology etc.) I'd happily compromise on for the above.

Fair enough. It's seemed to me that, almost by definition, what constitutes as a prototype in look/technology is very fluid and definitely not a defined formula if you like. I think having styling along the lines of concept cars is perfectly acceptable, for example, if not silhouettes because that is in keeping with the base idea or a prototype for me. I supposed I would be a bit non-plussed if a manufacturer turned up with a prototype that happened to look like their top line model of 3 years. If a manufacturer turned up with a prototype with wild looks and said 'this is what we want our cars to be in 2025 I think they'd be onto a winner. 

 

 

Absolutely no return to any period in the past! The fastest category in WEC has to reflect progress, not hark back to days gone by.

I would be fine with either pure prototypes (with relevant technology and aerodynamics only reined in in the interests of safety) or something like Super GT.

 

Super GT being spec carbon tubs with silhouette bodywork? Aren't these rules somewhere in between your two desires? 



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#60 proviz

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 09:07

Well, as I said, "either or", just make a clear choice between those extremes. It seems Super GT is pretty much the way silhouette classes are going and I can live with that as long as those silhouettes are somewhat recognizable as being based on true production models, meaning annual production in four figures.

If not that, then make them pure purpose-built racers without compromises.


Edited by proviz, 23 October 2018 - 09:09.


#61 Sacha

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 12:27

Thank you

 

Seems apt to me to have a fresher thread for this - the one where a lot of this is contained seems to have a title no longer reflective of content*. 

 

The background, if you missed it, is to have more road car styled prototypes - the so called 'Hypercar' class. Basic idea is to be less complicated and less aerodynamically refined leading to lower budgets than current LMP1-H. More details are expected 'shortly' and Pierre Fillon is talking to 'five or six' manufacturers about these regulations. 

 

Visual-2.jpg

http://www.dailyspor...egulations.html

 

There's also the follow up direction the ACO are pursuing - Hydrogen - for 2024, the ground work of which may be laid into these 2020-2024 regulations in some form. So watch out for that maybe coming into play for even further future years. 

 

*Mods - by all means merge/retitle is appropriate if so judged 

 

Thank you for starting a new one ! :up:



#62 Sacha

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 12:38

HIGHLY complicated topic ! I believe that everybody was in favour of Prototypes, when there were enough to build a class.

Levelling the performances of cars of different classes sounds and looks awkward to me (leading the efforts of the smart / rich / courageous guys ad absurdum).

More than 3 classes will be complicated to follow, in a race, for the spectator.

Hence, I would vote for

  • GTE AM
  • GTE PRO
  • Hyper
    • and the Experimential Class / Garage 56 / Hydrogen

These Hypercars: if we would see oeuvres like the Valkyrie, the Glickenhaus, I would be happy enough.

More tight competition would pay off and let us forget quickly the space-craft-like designs.

 

Cheer

s



#63 Ben1445

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 19:35

http://www.dailyspor...r-full-wec.html

 

Ok... 



#64 proviz

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 07:14

Couldn't think of a more poignant start to the Comic Book Formula.



#65 Vielleicht

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 11:22

Just found this onboard version of the Mission H24 shakedown test at Spa.

 



#66 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 17:30

Sportscar365: FIA Publishes 2020 Hypercar Technical Regulations

https://sportscar365...technical-regs/

 

 

:well:


Edited by Vielleicht, 05 December 2018 - 17:33.


#67 Joseki

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 17:50

Those are boring enough to interest manufacturers I think.

#68 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 18:43

Regulations are downloadable from here
https://www.fia.com/...on/category/118
 
Motorsport: https://www.motorspo...-based/4309255/

At least 25 cars equipped with the engine and 25 cars equipped with the hybrid system must be produced by the end of the year after the climax of the first season in which they are used in the WEC. Those figures rise to 100 units after the end of the second season.


Edited by Vielleicht, 05 December 2018 - 19:24.


#69 Ben1445

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 19:29

So... is that road homologation just for the powertrain? Not the chassis/whole car? 



#70 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 19:36

Success ballast?

There still seems to be a small range within which you can midify the aerodynamics of the with the cda_min of 1m^2, cla_max of 5.2m^2 and a ratio of 4 between those two figures. If you go for cda=1 you get cla=4, with cda=1.3 you can go for the max of cla. Or do you go for a medium configuration, we'll hopefully get some data on the figures that'll actually be raced.
For the weight distribution, there's a range of 47 to 50% for the front, so again some scope for potential differences between the cars.

And I like that they use MAD, I'm not mad at that. ;)

Edited by thegforcemaybewithyou, 05 December 2018 - 20:04.


#71 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 21:21

Have an easy reading version of the rules



#72 ArnageWRC

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 21:23

Success Ballast??? Really?? Not a good start if true...



#73 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 21:29

Powertrain supply to customer teams for two cars over a season seems to have crept up to €3m from €2m as well. Which is the wrong direction if any. And I'm still none the wiser as to  where a customer/privateer is going to get a chassis from. From the manufactures as well, or from someone like Oreca or Dallara?



#74 Kalmake

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 21:54

Success Ballast??? Really?? Not a good start if true...

At least it's removed for Le Mans which is the season finale. Which, IMO, makes it not work for "avoiding extreme development budgets".

 

 

Cfebeot.png

 

 

Also, who is going to even notice the championship results when Le Mans is the finale?

 

Pointless.



#75 TheMidnight

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 11:44

I don't know, it all seems good/reasonable on paper but it lacks a certain something. 

 

The overriding message seems to be 'how can we survive?', which I get, but it doesn't inspire me. They seem to be trashing the previous golden era of LMP1 (Audi, Porsche, Toyota), passive aggressive comments about spending, yet that era put Le Mans back on the map. 

 

Success ballast  :down:

 

Fingers crossed it all works out. 


Edited by TheMidnight, 06 December 2018 - 11:44.


#76 proviz

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 14:06

I still entertain hope that this travesty never makes it to 2021 Le Mans grid.


Edited by proviz, 06 December 2018 - 14:11.


#77 Vielleicht

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 18:38

I'm sort of coming around to the logic. Though I'm still dubious.

 

Making the engines production based feels like a sensible evolution, in a way, from LMP1-H. If you think of the outgoing rules as the tech lab, this is the market introduction stage.

 

I also wonder about that five year homologation. We know they want a Hydrogen class in the mid 2020s so that ties in perfectly.

 

We shall see I guess.



#78 Ben1445

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 18:40

The overriding message seems to be 'how can we survive?', which I get, but it doesn't inspire me. They seem to be trashing the previous golden era of LMP1 (Audi, Porsche, Toyota), passive aggressive comments about spending, yet that era put Le Mans back on the map. 

 

I'm pleased that this is now the prevailing opinion! Certainly wasn't at it's peak. Case of 'you don't know what you have until it's gone' I guess



#79 TF110

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 20:39

Rules seem to have been clarified and private teams can make their own car/engine. But manufacturers get an advantage to a production BASED engine in that there's more freedom in it rather than a bespoke race engine. At least that sounds good. Not a fan of the high weight or the spec type of things like mandated output and aero levels. Hopefully it's Toyota, Aston, Ferrari/Ford/someone else in a couple years. That will make Le Mans great again  :lol:


Edited by TF110, 06 December 2018 - 20:40.


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#80 Nonesuch

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 20:52

The overriding message seems to be 'how can we survive?', which I get, but it doesn't inspire me. They seem to be trashing the previous golden era of LMP1 (Audi, Porsche, Toyota), passive aggressive comments about spending, yet that era put Le Mans back on the map.

 

The comments might be passive aggressive, but it's the truth. The spending chased all the smaller teams out of LMP1, and frequently led to significant gaps even between the manufacturers.

 

I don't like these so-called hypercars - I much prefer the prototype aesthetic - but if the WEC is coming around to accepting that racing can not be about spending hundreds of millions on pointless gimmicks that's a good thing.

 

Let the likes of Toyota, Mercedes, Renault, and Volkswagen spend their millions on tv and radio campaigns instead of laying waste to perfectly fine racing series. :wave:


Edited by Nonesuch, 06 December 2018 - 20:53.


#81 Joseki

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 20:34

http://www.dailyspor...-programme.html

 

Multiple articles today reporting that Ferrari is evalating a factory effort in hypercar. Also

 

Ferrari then joins Toyota (understood to be ready to commit for the opening year of the new ruleset), McLaren (development programme understood to be active), Aston Martin (Active participants in regulation development and evaluating options), Glickenhaus (targeting Year 1) and at least one other high profile manufacturer in playing an active part in the development of the new regulations with a view to potential entry into the fray.


#82 Dan333SP

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 20:34

Looks like Ferrari may well be close to committing to 2021/22

 

http://www.dailyspor...-programme.html



#83 Dan333SP

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 20:34

http://www.dailyspor...-programme.html

 

Multiple articles today reporting that Ferrari is evalating a factory effort in hypercar. Also

 

Just beat me to it :)



#84 Dan333SP

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 20:36

My wish, which will not come true, is that they essentially run a hybrid-boosted version of the 333SP's drivetrain. I miss prototypes with great engine notes. 



#85 Joseki

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 20:37

In any case it looks like the real fun will start in year 2, year 1 will probably be like like WEC 2012 (except there probably won't be a manufacturer "doing a Toyota" for the FIA/ACO).



#86 Grippy

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 12:32

I found this Gif of LeMans winners through the ages, showing each winner in profile. The earliest I remember is the GT40 in Gulf Oil colours.

https://twitter.com/...544285335760896



#87 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 12:46

Hyrdogen? Don't we all remember what happened with the last hydrogen vehicles?

Hindenburg_disaster.jpg

Any more dangerous than Petrol and LPG is? I don’t think so...

#88 Ben1445

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 16:02

So, Glickenhaus pretty much having said they're doing it. Toyota are considered a given (for some reason?). We've got McLaren pleased with the way the rules ahem turned out but not committed yet. Ferrari are thinking about it. 

 

Have I missed anyone? 



#89 Ali_G

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 16:17

I found this Gif of LeMans winners through the ages, showing each winner in profile. The earliest I remember is the GT40 in Gulf Oil colours.
https://twitter.com/...544285335760896


In terms of profile, the 94 Dauer 962 and the 2003 Speed 8 look best.

I love that Dauer 962 in profile. The long tail looks fantastic.

#90 Rupert

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 18:05

I'm pleased that this is now the prevailing opinion! Certainly wasn't at it's peak. Case of 'you don't know what you have until it's gone' I guess

I realised hogood the wec wawhile it wahappening. To me it waclear that those 3 made the golden era of motorportin the last feyears. Much better than F1, for instance.



#91 Nonesuch

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 20:53

Multiple articles today reporting that Ferrari is evalating a factory effort in hypercar.

 

About time! Their last Le Mans victory is way too long ago.

 

Fernando Alonso and Di Montezemolo had me all excited about the prospect of a Ferrari LMP programme, but I suppose this will have to do.

 

Make this happen, Maranello! :cool:



#92 Dan333SP

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 00:34

I'm pleased that this is now the prevailing opinion! Certainly wasn't at it's peak. Case of 'you don't know what you have until it's gone' I guess


Not really true. There were threads popping up here about whether the WEC was better than F1 at the time, particularly after a great WEC race at Silverstone in 2015. I think anyone paying attention knew it was a bubble that wouldn’t last, kinda like the ALMS in 2007/2008 or IMSA GTP in 90/91 before that.

#93 Ben1445

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 00:58

Not really true. There were threads popping up here about whether the WEC was better than F1 at the time, particularly after a great WEC race at Silverstone in 2015. I think anyone paying attention knew it was a bubble that wouldn’t last, kinda like the ALMS in 2007/2008 or IMSA GTP in 90/91 before that.


Maybe, but it manifested itself as a snidey response of ‘it won’t last you know’ whenever someone dared say they were enjoying it as though that meant it somehow wasn’t deserving of the praise or enjoyment because of the impending doom. It’s like the idea became a barrier to accepting that we were watching a golden era at the time - that could only be done in retrospect.

Then there were the ‘Group C was better’ type comments. Which I’m sure during the Group C era someone would have been saying ‘the mid 50s were better’ or words to those effect.

But this is me drifting around a bit topic wise...

#94 king_crud

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 10:24

I knew it wouldn't last, I'm old enough to have seen that. But I loved it while it happened, and I know it will happen again, because I'm old enough to have seen that

#95 Vielleicht

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 13:56

So, Glickenhaus pretty much having said they're doing it. Toyota are considered a given (for some reason?). We've got McLaren pleased with the way the rules ahem turned out but not committed yet. Ferrari are thinking about it. 

 

Have I missed anyone? 

Aston Martin, potentially. Maybe Ford. Outside chance on Koenigsegg.



#96 TF110

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 20:32

I knew it wouldn't last, I'm old enough to have seen that. But I loved it while it happened, and I know it will happen again, because I'm old enough to have seen that

I think it's sad that VW had to basically one-up eachother and run 200 million dollar budgets for both programs (Audi and Porsche). Then dieselgate happens and they need to be seen doing something 'green' which is why both of them are going to a 'super-spec' positive PR series called Formula E.

 

I'm hopeful the new rules are attractive and we get actual competition that doesn't have teams spending obscene amounts of money just because they can. If I'm guessing, by 2021 it'll be Toyota, Aston Martin (with Red Bull?), Glickenhaus, Rebellion/ByKolles/SMP (with a boutique manufacturer), McLaren and maybe Ferrari.



#97 FLB

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 21:20

I think it's sad that VW had to basically one-up eachother and run 200 million dollar budgets for both programs (Audi and Porsche). Then dieselgate happens and they need to be seen doing something 'green' which is why both of them are going to a 'super-spec' positive PR series called Formula E.

OT.

 

 

I'm more and more convinced Dieselgate will turn out to be one of the best things to ever happen to VAG. It's allowed them to completetly re-think their corporate strategies. They will be one of the best-placed if not *the* best-placed manufacturer for The Electric Revolution. In Autonomous Vehicules too, since dropping the FIA WEC budgets has allowed more R&D budget for it.

 

If I had been CEO and had the opportunity to go all the way, I would have dropped ALL factory motorsport programs. Dieselgate was the result of the same engineering culture that created the 6cm skirts in F1 in 1981 and Toyota's Cheater Wing at Le Mans in 2014... i.e. that rules are made to be circumvented if they can be. Motorsport encourages creative engineering to gain any advantage possible, rules be damned, especially if you think you can't get caught.

 

VAG dropping motorsport would have sent the message that that sort of thinking was unacceptable.



#98 FPV GTHO

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 02:05

Aston Martin, potentially. Maybe Ford. Outside chance on Koenigsegg.


Ford aren't doing it unless IMSA also adopt the rules

#99 Ben1445

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 07:58

Ford aren't doing it unless IMSA also adopt the rules

Well, they might yet do that 



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#100 Cornholio

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:46

I knew it wouldn't last, I'm old enough to have seen that. But I loved it while it happened, and I know it will happen again, because I'm old enough to have seen that

 

At the risk of going off-topic, but was thinking about this in general about prototypes, GTs and touring car racing the other week. Despite the "bust" periods that followed, in my time following motorsport I wouldn't swap having experienced things like LMP1-H, Class 1 DTM, peak Super Touring, even GT1 (although I preferred the open LMP1s they raced against), for a hypothetical couple of decades of stability under more bland DPi, GT3, TCR-style regulations. If I was a few years older I'd probably add Group C to the list too.

 

Remains to be seen if these new WEC regulations will excite me in the same way though, both aesthetically and technically. I'll give them a chance but we'll see.