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Le Mans/WEC 2020 Regulations (and beyond)


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#101 Ben1445

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 15:01

New WEC rules can't really be contemplated without thinking about what's going on Stateside as well: 

 

Sportscar365 report that manufacturer interest is building in DPi for 2020. 

https://sportscar365...lding-for-2020/

Possible Ford, Hyundai and unknown Japanese manufacturer. 

 

Think Wayne Taylor said in a Marshall Pruett podcast that the manufacturer presence is already inflating his budgets from what they were a few years ago making it hard to keep up without a manufacturer tie up or good sponsorship (sounds like having Alonso and Kobayashi strengthened the cash influx from their existing partners in GM and Konica Minolta). How good are IMSA's cost control measures? 

 

So is IMSA's DPi - being established, proven and (crucially) low cost - seems to be gaining more stable interest from manufacturers than the hyper-cars at this point. Surely the back up plan for the ACO if Hypercar doesn't gain the commitments they need should be to adopt a DPi concept and push for the addition of a small low-cost hybrid? ​It still seems really silly to have two competing, non-transferable prototype classes.

 

That said, I think the concept of aero performance points is very interesting and I'd still like to find out if it is a feasible cost control measure. Indeed, cost control seems to be the name of the game in this modern era of racing - F1 and WEC suffer whilst FE, IMSA and IndyCar prosper. 


Edited by Ben1445, 07 January 2019 - 15:04.


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#102 HistoryFan

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 16:34

So with Acura already in and Lexus isn't the Japanes manufacture which could go with an DPI project it should be Nissan, shouldn't it?



#103 TF110

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 21:27

Sounds all good but until you actually see more entries in DPi, this appears to be the same story that's been going on for years. Ford looking to enter? That's the same thing that has been talked about since 2016. The only Japanese manufacturer that is mid size and not represented is Subaru. Mazda is the other but has an entry. Toyota is ruled out because they're not mid size and a dpi is unlikely with Toyota doing the wec hypercar.

#104 Ben1445

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 22:10

Sounds all good but until you actually see more entries in DPi, this appears to be the same story that's been going on for years. Ford looking to enter? That's the same thing that has been talked about since 2016. The only Japanese manufacturer that is mid size and not represented is Subaru. Mazda is the other but has an entry. Toyota is ruled out because they're not mid size and a dpi is unlikely with Toyota doing the wec hypercar.

Not sure why but this comment seems disconnected with the point I was making. 



#105 TF110

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:10

Not sure why but this comment seems disconnected with the point I was making.

I didn't quote you so I wasn't trying to counter or explore your point. These 'insert manufacturers here' stories have been going on for years now and they have borne no fruit. That's my point.

#106 Vielleicht

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 16:35

FE an option for Ford     (+ sports-car talk later on in the article) 
https://www.autospor...ders-its-future
 

Rushbrook appeared to rule out an entry into WEC's the new hypercar concept prototype class that will come on stream for the 2020/21 season.
He said that a common set of regulations between the premier classes of the WEC and IMSA was "a big part of what we were aiming and hoping for".


"I will say that DPi is on the table and part of it is driven by the budget that is related to it," he explained.
"While DPi isn't electrified today, I don't know that it won't be in the future."


So, electrification is a big box to tick within Ford's future programs. That could be DPi + a future hybrid evolution of the concept. Or it could be FE.
But Hypercar and Ford has probably gone cold now.


Edited by Vielleicht, 09 January 2019 - 16:36.


#107 DanardiF1

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 16:38

FE an option for Ford     (+ sports-car talk later on in the article) 
https://www.autospor...ders-its-future
 



So, electrification is a big box to tick within Ford's future programs. That could be DPi + a future hybrid evolution of the concept. Or it could be FE.
But Hypercar and Ford has probably gone cold now.

 

 

DPi works for their ecoboost ICE marketing, but if they're moving to electric too then obviously FE is an easy thing to justify at board level. Both are to be honest, as they don't require the outlay on chassis development etc.



#108 Vielleicht

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 16:43

DPi works for their ecoboost ICE marketing, but if they're moving to electric too then obviously FE is an easy thing to justify at board level. Both are to be honest, as they don't require the outlay on chassis development etc.

Yeah I have to agree. Given the low cost and additional potential for DPi to add small hybrids later on, potentially combining FE + DPi seems like a more cost effective and 'safe' option than Hypercars to suit their needs over the next 5 years or so.


Edited by Vielleicht, 09 January 2019 - 16:47.


#109 DanardiF1

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 16:45

So with Acura already in and Lexus isn't the Japanes manufacture which could go with an DPI project it should be Nissan, shouldn't it?

 

Nissan are already in too, have partnered with ESM until last year and they unfortunately closed down due to losing Patron sponsorship, and this year Core Autosport are running one of the Nissan-Ligiers.

 

So it could only really be someone like Subaru, unless Nissan were going to use their luxury sub-brand Infiniti?



#110 DanardiF1

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 16:47

Yeah I have to agree. Given the additional potential for DPi to add small hybrids later on, FE + DPi seems like a more cost effective and 'safe' option than Hypercars to suit their needs over the next 5 years or so.

 

Plus the biggest selling vehicle in the US is a Ford. Even if it is the F150 truck, there are still ecoboost engine options for that vehicle and as such Ford can get a lot out of marketing that through DPi.


Edited by DanardiF1, 09 January 2019 - 16:50.


#111 Ben1445

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 16:59

Yeah, this is what I mean. Cost effective road relevance is winning out right now. If Hypercar isn't cost effective it's going to lose interest to places like DPi and FE as above with Ford. 

 

Unfortunately, Porsche pulling out unexpectedly prematurely has made them put a rush on a new category. Adopting non-hybrid DPi for evena couple of years sounds like a non starter for the FIA/ACO honestly think if they are intent on having hybrids as part of their top category, they need to change tack a little bit. Work with IMSA, ensure that the next generation of DPi cars have hybrids and then finally forge that common platform. Small compromise for both sides, huge boost in cost effectiveness of a manufacturer prototype program. But that still leaves the problem of what you'd do for 2020-2022... tough one that. 



#112 DanardiF1

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 17:50

Yeah, this is what I mean. Cost effective road relevance is winning out right now. If Hypercar isn't cost effective it's going to lose interest to places like DPi and FE as above with Ford. 

 

Unfortunately, Porsche pulling out unexpectedly prematurely has made them put a rush on a new category. Adopting non-hybrid DPi for evena couple of years sounds like a non starter for the FIA/ACO honestly think if they are intent on having hybrids as part of their top category, they need to change tack a little bit. Work with IMSA, ensure that the next generation of DPi cars have hybrids and then finally forge that common platform. Small compromise for both sides, huge boost in cost effectiveness of a manufacturer prototype program. But that still leaves the problem of what you'd do for 2020-2022... tough one that. 

 

Overall I agree, but that doesn't mean that Ford can't get any marketing benefit out of building an Ecoboost-branded WEC car, just that its cheaper and works more for their particular market to have a DPi car in IMSA...

 

How much would it take to effectively upgrade the Ford GT to fit the kind of specs the FIA/ACO are on about for their hypercar regs? I'm not saying directly upgrading that car, but they could build that kind of car around a carbon monocoque relatively cheaply...



#113 TF110

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 18:44

Performance levels are going to be 'capped' so there's no reason you should have to spend big money in the wec hypercar rules. 20 million isn't a lot of money for a manufacturer like Ford to go and potentially win Le Mans and an FIA world championship. IMSA is the U.S. and that's the biggest market, but like mentioned, that's the F150's territory. The Ford to dpi story has been ongoing for 2 years now, at least. If they're going to pull the trigger on something, I think it has to be global or they'll stick with the Ford GT for another couple years and maybe sell customer cars.



#114 Vielleicht

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 18:45

http://www.racecar-e...ypercar-update/

"Almost two months have passed since the FIA approved the Hypercar regulations for Le Mans, and to date there have been no statements of intent from any motor manufacturer that sat at the table and thrashed them out."

 

Ooh dear.



#115 azza200

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 19:38

:rotfl:

 

 



#116 TF110

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 21:48

http://www.racecar-e...ypercar-update/

"Almost two months have passed since the FIA approved the Hypercar regulations for Le Mans, and to date there have been no statements of intent from any motor manufacturer that sat at the table and thrashed them out."

 

Ooh dear.

That's factually INCORRECT. Glickenhaus has already committed to the new rules and that article is borderline clickbait. 



#117 Ben1445

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 08:12

 Glickenhaus has already committed to the new rules and that article is borderline clickbait. 

 

Were Glickenhaus part of the group of manufacturers who 'sat around the table' to write the rules? I thought they were a low volume specialist who jumped on them after they'd been announced. 



#118 Sacha

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 10:53

First I was reluctant towards skipping prototypes -- whereby current LMPX seem all the same, hence nothing proto anymore...

When I imagine to have things like the Aston Valkyrie vs. a Brabham vs. an SCG 007, vs. McLaren, Ferrari (who mentioned Lotus ?) this would be quite a thing.



#119 Vielleicht

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 15:48

Oh hello, ByKolles want to build a car for the HyperCar class that doesn't, I repeat, doesn't look like a mangled platypus.

https://sportscar365...ercar-revealed/

 

ByKolles2.jpg



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#120 Ben1445

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 16:01

Oh hello, ByKolles want to build a car for the HyperCar class that doesn't, I repeat, doesn't look like a mangled platypus.

 

Careful, we haven't seen the front of it yet!  :p

 

Is it just me or might we be shaping up for a repeat of the early 2000s with one major manufacturer (Audi then, Toyota now) against a smattering of other entries (Pescarolo/Courage/Dome then, Glickenhaus/ByKolles/Oreca now)? 



#121 proviz

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 18:05

Well, well, what could possibly be more convincing than early endorsements from prestigious teams like Glickenhaus and Kolles!



#122 Myrvold

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 19:08

They would need some manufacturer to take part though?

 

The rules agreed on Wednesday by the FIA's World Motor Sport Council demand that both the internal combustion engine and the front-axle energy-retrieval system must be based on units "destined for a series production car homologated for road use". 

 

At least 25 cars equipped with the engine and 25 cars equipped with the hybrid system must be produced by the end of the year after the climax of the first season in which they are used in the WEC. 

Those figures rise to 100 units after the end of the second season.



#123 TennisUK

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 19:26

That was 'calrified'. Privateers can use racing engines which are 'balanced'.



#124 CPR

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 12:40

Some comments from Zak Brown on how McLaren see their participation in WEC (and also IndyCar):
https://www.thecheck...or-2021-season/
 

“They’re still working to finalise the rules and our interest remains, but we need to see the final rules and make sure that it’s something that we’ve got the right technology for and the right budget for,” he told RACER.

“So I think while they’ve announced the rules, they’ve been trying to modify them and engaged with the manufacturers and I think that will come to a head for everybody in the next month or two.

“We know that we would not be ready by 2020, so the earliest we would potentially enter is 2021, but at this point it’s very much ‘potentially.’

“We like Le Mans, but as you’ve heard me say a thousand times, I’ve got to make sure our Formula 1 team is headed the right direction. And then, of course, we’ve got IndyCar, so we’ve got to make sure we do things in the right order at the right times.”



#125 Vielleicht

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 21:20

Road-going supercars to be allowed under 2020/21 WEC hypercar rules

 

https://www.autospor...going-supercars

 

Cars like the Aston Martin Valkyrie and McLaren Senna will be allowed into the category after lobbying from Aston Martin, McLaren and *ahem* Ferrari.



#126 Cornholio

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 00:23

Sounds a bit like the mid-late 90s when road-based GT1s and the proper prototypes were *theoretically* a joint top class.

 

Which might be fine by me, something for everyone. If (big if) they can make it work. I won't lie though, I started enjoying it much more in 1999 when the "GT1" cars gave up all pretence of being road-based and started looking more like Group C cars, and the actual prototypes started gaining the ascendancy anyway with BMW winning that race. If the category ends up being dominated by blunt-nosed, wide-windscreened road car lookalikes it probably won't capture my imagination as much.



#127 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 08:24

Road-going supercars to be allowed under 2020/21 WEC hypercar rules
 
https://www.autospor...going-supercars
 
Cars like the Aston Martin Valkyrie and McLaren Senna will be allowed into the category after lobbying from Aston Martin, McLaren and *ahem* Ferrari.


Interesting...

Going from fuel efficient hybrids that did 10 to 11 laps at Le Mans on some 70 or so liters of fuel to 1000+ hp fuel guzzlers...
If they permit that Valkyra to be raced at the power output figures of the `ehum` "Street version" I wonder how many laps that thing can do with a `cough` "Street version" spec fuel tank capacity....

Could well become more busy than ever before in the Le Mans pitlane and a need to rebuilt it in order to safely store more fuel for the cars...

#128 Ben1445

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 08:41

Interesting...

Going from fuel efficient hybrids that did 10 to 11 laps at Le Mans on some 70 or so liters of fuel to 1000+ hp fuel guzzlers...
If they permit that Valkyra to be raced at the power output figures of the `ehum` "Street version" I wonder how many laps that thing can do with a `cough` "Street version" spec fuel tank capacity....

Could well become more busy than ever before in the Le Mans pitlane and a need to rebuilt it in order to safely store more fuel for the cars...

Almost all hyper-cars are hybrids, and I'm pretty sure they'll tune them even further for max efficiency to get that traditional strategic advantage in the pitstop cycles. Unless they're idiots and somehow restrict that fabulous element. Either way, I doubt this will be an issue.

Certainly not in the magnitude you have weirdly described anyway. Rebuild the pitlane fuelling infrastructure for maybe 10 hybrid hypercars in a field of 50 odd other non hybrids? Please.


Also have to ask, are they keeping their aero design point rules in this road going hyper-car extension?

Edited by Ben1445, 08 March 2019 - 08:52.


#129 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 08:57

Almost all hyper-cars are hybrids, and I'm pretty sure they'll tune them even further for max efficiency to get that traditional strategic advantage in the pitstop cycles. Unless they're idiots and somehow restrict that fabulous element. Either way, I doubt this will be an issue.

Certainly not in the magnitude you have weirdly described anyway. Rebuild the pitlane fuelling infrastructure for maybe 10 hybrid hypercars in a field of 50 odd other non hybrids? Please.


Also have to ask, are they keeping their aero design point rules in this road going hyper-car extension?




Seems as if you didn't recognize a bit of sarcasm.....

Anyway, I doubt that those so called streetcars will have anywhere near the fuel efficiency as that the older LMP1-HY's could do and cover a similar distance at these LMP1-HY's did on the same kind of fuel allocation.

#130 Ben1445

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 09:06

Seems as if you didn't recognize a bit of sarcasm.....


If that was sarcasm, the fact that I believed it is a reflection of how mad the anti-hybrid brigade are on platforms like this (and others).

#131 Ben1445

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 09:12

Anyway, I doubt that those so called streetcars will have anywhere near the fuel efficiency as that the older LMP1-HY's could do and cover a similar distance at these LMP1-HY's did on the same kind of fuel allocation.


Perhaps not, but then they are different things entirely. LMP1-H were bespoke racing machines through and through. The new hyper car regs are either modified road cars or bespoke chassis with production hybrid power trains. So it’s not a comparable situation.

Also, let’s be honest... it’s a bit of a mess and this is a ruleset they’ve fallen into. Not one they’ve carefully crafted.

#132 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 09:58

If that was sarcasm, the fact that I believed it is a reflection of how mad the anti-hybrid brigade are on platforms like this (and others).


Believe me, I know how many dislike the hybrid technology because it comes (among others) at the expense of loud engines.

Bu if there are things I believe too be more rediculous and out of place thinking then F1 back to atmo's, one of them it is the current trend of hypercrap show-off junk (with and/or without hybrid-technology) with outrageous outputs that rarely can't be used anyway and for which you must go to Bahrein and other middle east countries to see them being used at all....


I agree with the current rules being a mess. Allowing this hypercrap stuff is one manner to try to solve the troubles by using the kind of cars that appear to be most on the mind of some car builders instead of (at least to me could be) more sensible options. These hyper craps are built for whatever reasons so at least they are there, unlike what might be better solutions to work with but somehow don't appeal to car builders for whatever reasons.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 08 March 2019 - 09:59.


#133 Ben1445

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:00

Believe me, I know how many dislike the hybrid technology because it comes (among others) at the expense of loud engines.

Bu if there are things I believe too be more rediculous and out of place thinking then F1 back to atmo's, one of them it is the current trend of hypercrap show-off junk (with and/or without hybrid-technology) with outrageous outputs that rarely can't be used anyway and for which you must go to Bahrein and other middle east countries to see them being used at all....


I agree with the current rules being a mess. Allowing this hypercrap stuff is one manner to try to solve the troubles by using the kind of cars that appear to be most on the mind of some car builders instead of (at least to me could be) more sensible options. These hyper craps are built for whatever reasons so at least they are there, unlike what might be better solutions to work with but somehow don't appeal to car builders for whatever reasons.


“Hypercraps”

Definitely doesn’t make you look juvenile.

#134 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:36

“Hypercraps”

Definitely doesn’t make you look juvenile.


Sorry but not everyone in this world is in awe and mesmerized about this trend of building these show-offs with specs out of reality and limited practicality but gosh how nice to bragg about them....

#135 Ben1445

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:38

Sorry but not everyone in this world is in awe and mesmerized about this trend of building these show-offs with specs out of reality and limited practicality but gosh how nice to bragg about them....


Never said anyone had to. It’s just the juvenile nicknaming.

#136 Vielleicht

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:51

As a general rule, I do not give a damn about the latest road-going hypercar. Lots of people out there definitely do, but I do not. They often have very interesting engineering underneath but on the whole they are gratuitous displays of luxury and wealth.

Show me one that’s been developed into a top class racing machine though and you have my interest. Because then the luxury and wealth aspects are stripped out and race performance is all that matters.

#137 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:54

Never said anyone had to. It’s just the juvenile nicknaming.



There are different kinds of sense of humour, word-games and pun-intended word-modifications possible but people may think different about them due to location an/or sense of humor.

I have a friend who insists that the word rap (within the world of music) is a shortcut, while the complete full name tells what it is for him; Rap being a shortcut for Crap.
I can see the humor in that but he and I are probably the only ones.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 08 March 2019 - 10:59.


#138 Vielleicht

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 13:56

Here's the Sportscar365 write up:

https://sportscar365...prototype-regs/

 

Interestingly I have now noticed that Toyota are apparently still backing the originally approved set of regulations. It does kind of seems like an accidental set up of the late 90s again where there's scope for the blurring of lines between bespoke racing car and road cars. I can imagine Toyota building a bespoke racer and then releasing a few special edition road versions just to be considered in the same crowd as their on-track competitors.



#139 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 15:34

Here's the Sportscar365 write up:

https://sportscar365...prototype-regs/

 

Interestingly I have now noticed that Toyota are apparently still backing the originally approved set of regulations. It does kind of seems like an accidental set up of the late 90s again where there's scope for the blurring of lines between bespoke racing car and road cars. I can imagine Toyota building a bespoke racer and then releasing a few special edition road versions just to be considered in the same crowd as their on-track competitors.

If this is the result, I'll be thrilled.

 

Toyota_GT-One_Road_Car_1999_360_720_50-4



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#140 CPR

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 15:36

Completely co-incidentally McLaren just released the track-only version of their Senna hypercar:
 
https://cars.mclaren...laren-senna-gtr

D1I2xfVU8AECclt.jpg
 
D1I1QpLWkAEkGGS.jpg

D1I1TJIX4AEehGW.jpg

#141 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 15:36

Also, can anyone think of more money spent on a race program with fewer total race participations than the TS020? It raced 3 times, ever.



#142 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 15:41

Also, can anyone think of more money spent on a race program with fewer total race participations than the TS020? It raced 3 times, ever.



Nissan's '97 and '98 GT1 program combined? Both types races once if I'm correct.
Nissan's '15 project with that frontdrinve frontengined concept? Ran once....

#143 Dan333SP

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 15:48

Nissan's '97 and '98 GT1 program combined? Both types races once if I'm correct.
Nissan's '15 project with that frontdrinve frontengined concept? Ran once....

 

True, forgot about the R390 and R391, at least the R391 won a race when it beat Toyota at the Fuji 1000k.



#144 Vielleicht

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 15:49

I must admit to being a bit of a fan of those 'it's a road car, honest' machines. I still think the Porsche GT1-98 is one of the most beautiful racing cars ever built, and I'm really not a Porsche kind of person. The TS020 really took it another step and I love the audacity of that.

 

Can't help it, I just thought it was awesome and a part of me really does want to see it again even if it is short lived.



#145 proviz

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 17:10

In motor racing the purpose of the issue can never be to build the most "beautiful" can imaginable. If it becomes that it no longer is motor racing. Instead you should try to build the fastest car possible, even if that amounts to Chaparral 2J or whatever.



#146 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 18:25

Also, can anyone think of more money spent on a race program with fewer total race participations than the TS020? It raced 3 times, ever.

 

 

This is not about a sports car program but I think the millions spend on the Ilmor 265E engine in 1994 (that MonsterMerc used by Penske at Indy that year) may also have been a very costly affair for a single race. But at least that engine did bring home the bacon...



#147 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 18:29

True, forgot about the R390 and R391, at least the R391 won a race when it beat Toyota at the Fuji 1000k.

 

And I wasn't aware of the R391 winning at least a race....

 

I shall never forget these cars anymore. I saw the '97 at Le Mans and last August at Laguna Seca I saw the `road going` homologation example of the '98 version.

Now talk about an absolute bizarre detail of the street legal car:  it is powered by a V8 engine that pumps out:   some 350 hp !!!!!



#148 DanardiF1

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 19:23

Also, can anyone think of more money spent on a race program with fewer total race participations than the TS020? It raced 3 times, ever.

 

and didn't even win the Fuji race, where the only real competition was the open-top Nissan...

 

despite that, its still one of my all-time favourite racing cars, and I got to see one for real at Toyota's MegaWeb facility in Tokyo last year.


Edited by DanardiF1, 08 March 2019 - 19:24.


#149 DanardiF1

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 19:31

And I wasn't aware of the R391 winning at least a race....

 

I shall never forget these cars anymore. I saw the '97 at Le Mans and last August at Laguna Seca I saw the `road going` homologation example of the '98 version.

Now talk about an absolute bizarre detail of the street legal car:  it is powered by a V8 engine that pumps out:   some 350 hp !!!!!

 

The Fuji 1000km of 1999 was put together as a kind of 'proof of concept', trying to bring endurance racing back to Japan and Fuji Speedway... It was organised by the ACO itself, and only 16 ACO-compliant cars turned up, the rest of the 23 entrants being JGTC cars. It was an event held a couple of years too late, just as GT1/LMGTP was falling apart.



#150 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
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Posted 08 March 2019 - 19:46

Nissan's '97 and '98 GT1 program combined? Both types races once if I'm correct.
Nissan's '15 project with that frontdrinve frontengined concept? Ran once....

 

The Nissan was built by TWR, who used the same chassis tooling etc as they had for the Jaguar XJ15 a few years earlier, hence the Nissan's slight resemblance in the chassis area to that car... I think that use of older equipment rules out them being the biggest spenders.

 

The GTR LM possibly could be though... Even if Nissan tried to build the car to a smaller budget than their P1 competitors, the outlay for a bespoke prototype such as that car must have been pretty high.