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Le Mans/WEC 2020 Regulations (and beyond)


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#201 FPV GTHO

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 23:55

Maybe they could drop GTE for GT3 if they want to maintain some of the current performance gaps

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#202 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 08:59

Now what are the hypercars supposed to lap at?
A STOCK Valkyrie, road legal spac with licance plates, is bound to lap about as quick as an LMP1. Now take the AMR Pro version on slicks with track mods and we should be in the very low 3 minutes  if not below.
If both Aston Martin and McLaren show up to LeMans, the former with an Valkyrie AMR Pro like contraption and McLaren with a Senna that's basically a lighter more powerful GT3 car, how would the Aston be tuned down by...20 seconds a lap? The race car slower than the stock road car, would that be good?



#203 Vielleicht

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 09:07

My question is are they guaranteed to use the top line Valkyrie? Their recently announced ‘Son of Valkyrie’ AM-RB 003 is a slightly less extreme version with a twin turbo V6 rather than a crazy V12. I’d imagine that one more likely to be adapted into a Le Mans effort myself.

#204 Burai

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 09:25

Maybe they could drop GTE for GT3 if they want to maintain some of the current performance gaps

 

I'm up for that, but I wouldn't envy the poor people at ACO who'd have to whittle down the entry list for Le Mans.



#205 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 09:47

From a business perspective it might make sense for a manufacturer to run a car that is for sale without limitations. Now even Ford GT is far from that, but you'll get what I mean. The Valkyrie will be extremely rare to be spotted in public. 150 or so examples, most of them literally the center piece of a new house to be built around it.



#206 Ben1445

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 10:09

My question is are they guaranteed to use the top line Valkyrie? Their recently announced ‘Son of Valkyrie’ AM-RB 003 is a slightly less extreme version with a twin turbo V6 rather than a crazy V12. I’d imagine that one more likely to be adapted into a Le Mans effort myself.

Pretty sure I've seen reports that the AM-RB 003 (could eventually be named Valhalla) would be the one they take to Le Mans if they pull the trigger on it. There's going to be 500 examples made rather than 150 of the Valkyrie (which are sold out already). So I expect that to be the case. 



#207 FPV GTHO

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 11:22

I'm up for that, but I wouldn't envy the poor people at ACO who'd have to whittle down the entry list for Le Mans.


I guess then if you wanted a guaranteed LeMans spot, commit to the full WEC schedule

#208 Ben1445

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 20:40

The 'Son of Valkyrie' I expect Aston would enter. 

 

http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.autoblog.md%2F2019%2F



#209 Vielleicht

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 11:43

New Le Mans pit building planned for 2023

http://www.dailyspor...s-notebook.html

 

"The current plan is for the new complex to be completed in time for the centenary of the Le Mans 24 Hours in 2023."

 

Makes sense.
 

"The plans are also likely to accommodate infrastructure for alternative fuels, in particular hydrogen."

 

More evidence of commitment to their zero emissions endurance racing mission.



#210 Nonesuch

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 12:02

Maybe they could drop GTE for GT3 if they want to maintain some of the current performance gaps

 

That's another issue with these half-baked 'hypercars'; the ACO can do whatever they want with them, but the rest of the sportscars scene is using the other cars in various championships, even ones the ACO has no part in, and adjusting them to match the slow 'hypercars' isn't going to be easy.

 

Having to change Le Mans to LMP3 and GT3 because LMP2 and GTE are too fast would be ... not cool.



#211 SparkPlug86

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 14:14

I haven't been following this as much as I should have... but I'm quite excited for the new rule changes basing the top tier (whatever it ends up being called) on hypercars.

 

It brings more road relevance to manufacturers. Basing it on the last generation of hypercars, we would have seen models like the Mclaren P1, Ferrari La Ferrari, Porsche 918 etc.

 

Now here comes my question... You have a group of vehicles below that which are already based on productions cars (GTE)... Ferrari 488, Porsche 911 etc - My guess is they won't be a huge amount slower unless the 'LMP Hypercars) have massive aero upgrades (higher cost). The danger being, it will get out of control with F1 levels of upgrades etc because they can't exactly standardise the parts as each hypercar is different. Maybe I've missed something and got this wrong...

 

But also, what do they put in the middle of the GTE and LMP Hypercars... if anything at all. Once you've got a Mclaren 650/720 GTE and a Mclaren P1 LMP thats most of their range.



#212 Kalmake

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 15:59

Maybe what you missed it that it's going to be BoP. There is little motivation to upgrade parts.



#213 DN5

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 13:59

Interesting story on the Autosport front page news story about Ford now interested in the new rules with their GTE car as a base.



#214 juicy sushi

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 14:12

That would be for the plan C of using a steroided-up GTE class due to lack of take-up over the "hypercar" proposal.

 

The problem the ACO have is that all the manufacturers feel the rules are too expensive, without enough reason for them to be.  The manufacturers wants the ACO, WEC, IMSA and elsewhere aligned, ideally.  IMSA want nothing to do with $20 million per entry cars that no one can afford.  The ACO keep refusing to see reason and offer something that DPi can fit within.  

 

Until the ACO realize that they don't have enough buy-in for what they want, this is going to continue to be a farce.



#215 TennisUK

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 14:26

To be fair the Ford GT car always more of a prototype than GTE in concept.



#216 FPV GTHO

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 14:42

Will the Ford GT even still be in production come 2020/21?

#217 f1paul

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 20:23

Not really been following this and I'm confused after reading the last two pages. So are we going to get Ford GTs, McLaren Sennas whatever racing DPis (or prototypes). What on earth?? 

 

Or have I completely misread something



#218 TennisUK

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 20:29

Ish. They won’t be those cars. But they will be racing versions of road legal card BOPd against proper raving cars.

Not hopeful as I loathe the idea of BoP in the top class since it renders the whole thing entirely artificial.

#219 Izzyeviel

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 22:36

New Le Mans pit building planned for 2023

http://www.dailyspor...s-notebook.html

 

 

Makes sense.
 

 

More evidence of commitment to their zero emissions endurance racing mission.

What sort of thing would they need to do to accomodate Hydrogen?



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#220 TF110

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 01:22

Not liking this at all. Glorified GTE's as the top class? No thanks. Losing interest fast in this. 1150kg minimum weight for the TOP class! lol what's next, lmp2 1200kg and GTE 1400kg? With the continuous degrading of the top class everything else is going to take a back seat. Their original target was 3:25 with the new cars, now it's 3:30. Soon it'll be 3:35 and the rest of the classes might as well not exist. 



#221 Ben1445

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 08:49

What sort of thing would they need to do to accomodate Hydrogen?

I would assume that would be similar to fuel infrastructure in terms of just having storage tanks, delivery points, pipework etc. as part of the building design from the start, rather than as an afterthought. 



#222 Ben1445

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 09:19

Not liking this at all. Glorified GTE's as the top class? No thanks. Losing interest fast in this. 1150kg minimum weight for the TOP class! lol what's next, lmp2 1200kg and GTE 1400kg? With the continuous degrading of the top class everything else is going to take a back seat. Their original target was 3:25 with the new cars, now it's 3:30. Soon it'll be 3:35 and the rest of the classes might as well not exist. 

I really do think now they should have adopted DPi rules and structure then pushed for hybrid introduction. 



#223 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 09:33

I really do think now they should have adopted DPi rules and structure then pushed for hybrid introduction.


If there wasn't such a hype (justified or not) about all those hypercars being built nowadays and in the immediate future and all those simply being ignored as being irrelevant for racing .....

#224 FPV GTHO

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 14:33

I think however this gets sorted, it's just a stop gap measure until they sort out hydrogen fuel cell, and then the prototypes will be back.

#225 Vielleicht

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 14:39

I think however this gets sorted, it's just a stop gap measure until they sort out hydrogen fuel cell, and then the prototypes will be back.

I think that's how it looks, yes.

 

I personally can bear a stop gap solution if it means preparing the way for a hydrogen revolution at Le Mans. That's a change I really want to see.


Edited by Vielleicht, 12 April 2019 - 14:39.


#226 RacingGreen

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 01:25

Ish. They won’t be those cars. But they will be racing versions of road legal card BOPd against proper raving cars.

Not hopeful as I loathe the idea of BoP in the top class since it renders the whole thing entirely artificial.

 

I used to be of that opinion, but over the past couple of seasons I've watched more and more GT racing and would say that it is some of the best motor sport around. Different circuits seen to suit the character of the different entrants and the cars are so well matched that the teams have to push for the full race but as long as a team has a clean weekend and executes their strategy correctly they aren't far outside the competitive window. 

 

If you didn't watch it, and have a spare 12 hours I suggest you watch the clip below- really one of the best races for years and much better than 99% of WEC races.

 


Edited by RacingGreen, 13 April 2019 - 01:27.


#227 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 01:27

I really do think now they should have adopted DPi rules and structure then pushed for hybrid introduction.


Absolutely no. No team in DPi cares one iota about hybrids.

#228 Ben1445

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 23:29

Absolutely no. No team in DPi cares one iota about hybrids.

That is just incorrect though. 
 
"Current and prospective IMSA DPi manufacturers have voiced support for hybrid technology in the next-wave of prototype regulations" 
( https://sportscar365...prototype-regs/
 
There absolutely is support for hybrids in DPi. It aligns with the manufacturer's direction in electrification and DPi is a manufacturer based platform. The resistance is only down to making sure that it can be done in a way that is sustainable in costs. Don't mistake caution for a lack of support.


Edited by Ben1445, 13 April 2019 - 23:30.


#229 TF110

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 20:27

They want a cheap off-the-shelf (read spec) hybrid so they don't have to invest money into it. DPi manufacturers (if you can call them that) are cheap. The cars already are just gimmicked-up lmp2's with an engine change. I dont mind the hypercar solution, just not the direction in terms of speed and spectacle they're headed.



#230 Imateria

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 21:50

They want a cheap off-the-shelf (read spec) hybrid so they don't have to invest money into it. DPi manufacturers (if you can call them that) are cheap. The cars already are just gimmicked-up lmp2's with an engine change. I dont mind the hypercar solution, just not the direction in terms of speed and spectacle they're headed.

I have to agree to an extent. 6 months ago I was really excited for the Hypercar rules, now I couldn't care less. "Dumbed down" would be the term I'd use for them, the very idea of road cars pretending to be prototypes just doesnt work (as opposed to the GT1 cars of the late 90's, the apparent inspiration, which are prototypes pretending to be road cars), especially if they have to compete against actual prototypes.



#231 Ben1445

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 13:45

Key meeting this week regarding Hypercars, after which no firm commitments may ultimately kill the concept. Or at leat the road going part of it. Apparently. 

 

https://www.motorspo...BYKFNW_U8l_EG-I


Edited by Ben1445, 14 May 2019 - 13:45.


#232 Vielleicht

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 14:16

This has tunred into more of a mess than I thought. McLaren, Ferrari and Aston lobbied for road based hyper-cars to be allowed and so far none have comitted? A week before deadlines?



#233 FPV GTHO

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 01:40

The uptake for the original hypercar prototypes isn't anything to write home about either.

Given the option of McLaren, Ferrari and Aston competing with some form of GTE+/GT1 esque car or Toyota, Glickenhaus and ByKolles in a hypercar styled prototype, I think I'd take the former.

#234 TF110

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 02:17

The uptake for the original hypercar prototypes isn't anything to write home about either.
Given the option of McLaren, Ferrari and Aston competing with some form of GTE+/GT1 esque car or Toyota, Glickenhaus and ByKolles in a hypercar styled prototype, I think I'd take the former.

It looks like no one can agree on what way to go. Or there was a proposal that was made and only Toyota was among the manufacturers ready to go with it. Now it seems like the manufacturers who claimed they were interested weren't really that interested. Makes me wonder who or what was leading the charge towards hypercar in the first place. If it was a strong case why did it fall apart?

#235 Ben1445

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 07:39

Glickenhaus have announced their commitment to the road-going hypercard regs. 

https://twitter.com/...444223714418689



#236 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 09:09

Another important part of this show is that Toyota made it quite clear after the Spa WEC race that it does not want to commit to a category if FIA/ACO can't attract other manufacturers.
 

“We would do this maybe for a season,” [Leupen] said. “When we came to WEC, there was Audi. That’s what we were looking for. You are looking for makes like Aston Martin, McLaren, Ferrari to compete against. You want to use their brands to enhance your own brand image. With all respect to Kolles and Glickenhaus, it’s not a match. We would like to continue, but with the expectation that maybe the season after next that we are not the only manufacturer.”

 

https://sportscar365...r-rules-action/



#237 Vielleicht

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 17:33

Ok, so..
 
Who wanted to see the hybrids as an option and not mandatory?
 
Hybrids to be Optional in Revised Hypercar Regs
https://sportscar365...-hypercar-regs/



#238 Nonesuch

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 17:59

BoP is going to be drama! :lol:



#239 Ben1445

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 18:30

That would be interesting.... if not for BoP...which makes it all a bit... bleh. 



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#240 proviz

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 16:04

So, Friday will be the day when the final go-ahead for the most idiotic sportscar formula of all time is confirmed. From being trailblazer in making motor sport environmentally sustainable ACO’s feature act will morph into Michel Vaillant Comic Book Class in one fell swoop.



#241 RedRabbit

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 18:42

I prefer if the world's premier class racing series all remain prototype based, rather than production, even if a heavily revised form of the road car is used. There are probably 1000s of categories around the world where I can watch a track version of a car I can go buy tomorrow compete.

When watching the absolute top categories though, I want the race cars to inspire the road cars rather than the other way round.

#242 Ben1445

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 19:17

It is quite good to have a place for the Valkyrie to race, I guess. 

 

It's rumoured that Aston will confirm that entry alongside the rule confirmation. Also rumoured they will enter a version of the Valkyrie sans hybrid  :mad:


Edited by Ben1445, 13 June 2019 - 19:17.


#243 Mat13

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 19:38

I... cannot fathom what is going on. What are we actually getting? Prototypes? Hyper cars? Hyper car inspired prototypes?

Edited by Mat13, 13 June 2019 - 19:40.


#244 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 19:41

I... cannot fathom what is going on. What are we actually getting? Prototypes? Hyper cars? Hyper car inspired prototypes?

Yes



#245 Kalmake

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 19:44

Valkyrie was meant to challenge current LMP1 lap times. Not so exiting if they will be doing 3:30 or whatever it was.



#246 Mat13

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 19:52

Yes


Thanks for clearing that up 😂👍

#247 proviz

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 06:30

What the hell does Hypercar stand for anyway? Hyper - indeed! Sign of the times.



#248 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:09

What the hell does Hypercar stand for anyway? Hyper - indeed! Sign of the times.

 

They saw the F1 marketing people at work and wanted to get in on the action as well. So first the came up with the Super(!)season and now with the Hyper(!)cars and next year they will probably rename them to simply Softcars because people find it too confusing.



#249 Stephane

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:28

No Ultracars, then ?  :(



#250 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:30

No Ultracars, then ?  :(

 

Maybe a nice surprise during the press conference today?