72 replies to this topic

[Vielleicht]

Has any privateer even tried to run a hybrid? They are just to complex and expensive. Like, is Rebellion capable of developing one? SMP? Bykolles? Even the current cars are so expensive that Ginetta only name it to the grid once this year, and while no one is saying, they are probably gone. I think we probably need to make it both less expensive and less complicated too.

More than convinced an off-the-shelf one is well within the budgets and capabilities of a privateer.

[Dr. Austin]

More than convinced an off-the-shelf one is well within the budgets and capabilities of a privateer.

 

Why cry about the need for innovation and technology, and then run an off the shelf unit? It would just be for the sake of running a hybrid and no other reason. They would be better of with cheaper, simpler cars that run faster because they have less restrictions. Making it more complex and expensive just makes it harder on the privateers.

[Vielleicht]

Why cry about the need for innovation and technology, and then run an off the shelf unit? It would just be for the sake of running a hybrid and no other reason. They would be better of with cheaper, simpler cars that run faster because they have less* restrictions. Making it more complex and expensive just makes it harder on the privateers.

*fewer restrictions.

 

For someone who sings the praises of Privateers, you don't seem to have an awful lot of confidence in their technical capability. Money is a more legitimate grievance, but do keep reading - I'll get to that. To me it just makes more sense to at least run them with the same technology. Non-hybrid privateers beating hybrid manufacturers is no fairer than hybrid manufacturers beating a load of non-hybrid privateers. It goes both ways.

 

As to the reference to innovation - actually, a hybrid unit developed to be off-the-shelf cheap but competitive for privateer teams is an innovation in itself, or at least a maturation, as it marks the technology becoming mainstream affordable. It's just all part of the technological life-cycle - early on it's more expensive and as development goes on the price comes down.

 

So that's why. I stand by what I said and make no apologies.

 

As a footnote: 

I put it to you that actually, what you really want to see here is a non-hybrid ballsy privateer stick two fingers up to the hybrid manufacturers out of spite - driven by a dislike of hybrids, the manufacturers or the combination of the two.

Am I far from the mark?

_{(you don't have to answer)}

Edited by Vielleicht, 15 October 2018 - 21:48.

[BillBald]

It would certainly make sense for everyone to be on the same playing field, but is there ever going to be a manufacturer who wants to supply an off-the-shelf hybrid PU?

 

It's not like there would be a huge market for it.

[Vielleicht]

It would certainly make sense for everyone to be on the same playing field, but is there ever going to be a manufacturer who wants to supply an off-the-shelf hybrid PU?

Short answer: yes.

[BillBald]

Short answer: yes.

 

Would you like to make your answer slightly longer?

 

Which manufacturer do you have in mind?

[Dr. Austin]

For someone who sings the praises of Privateers, you don't seem to have an awful lot of confidence in their technical capability. 

 

No way they have the same technical ability as a major auto manufacturer, or rather the world's largest auto manufacturer. How many hybrid engineers do you figure Toyota has access too?

 

 

 To me it just makes more sense to at least run them with the same technology. Non-hybrid privateers beating hybrid manufacturers is no fairer than hybrid manufacturers beating a load of non-hybrid privateers. It goes both ways.

 

That's not what I meant. Same rules for everyone.  Make the manufacturers run non hybrid cars like the privateers. People will complain they are not as fast, so give them all more fuel. Worked like a charm for a decade in Group C. I'de love to see that kind of stability again.

 

I've always said the new P1 privateer cars look like they will be good cars. They are fast enough, and cool enough, and capable of more speed given enough fuel. They are much simpler and less expensive, which will be good for everyone. Toyota could probably even build their own and still win, but at least that would be fairer than what we have now.

 

I'de really like to see the current privateer P1 cars become one class that everyone can race in, but we are going to get mega GT (or whatever they will call it) instead. What we have now is simply abusing the privateers long enough to keep the WEC afloat until they can bring those things in. 

 

There is still probably time to save the current WEC if they allow manufacturers to run P1 non hybrids. We would probably get two or three manufacturers, and with the privateers having a legitimate chance that would probably attract more of them.

 

 

So that's why. I stand by what I said and make no apologies.

 

No need to. You seem rational enough. We are not that far apart anyway.

 

I put it to you that actually, what you really want to see here is a non-hybrid ballsy privateer stick two fingers up to the hybrid manufacturers out of spite - driven by a dislike of hybrids, the manufacturers or the combination of the two. Am I far from the mark?

_{(you don't have to answer)}

 

Why wouldn't I answer. It's a friendly discussion, right?

 

Beating Toyota would be far better than sticking the fingers up, don't you think? We need manufacturers and we need privateers. We need everyone because we current only have seven cars, and that's including the Bykolles.

 

I'de like to see the privateers given a legitimate chance to win, but the rules simply won't allow it.  If any existing privateer could pull that off it would be Rebellion, and we see the rules are so out of whack they have no chance. They are armed with one of the very best chassis you can buy, and a cast iron reliable Gibson. That really should have been a terrific car, but they have no chance because of the EOT.

 

Make them all run the same rules and toss the bop/eot out. That would work, but you have to make the cars affordable and simple enough for small teams to run them. 

Edited by Dr. Austin, 16 October 2018 - 02:39.

[ArrowsLivery]

More than convinced an off-the-shelf one is well within the budgets and capabilities of a privateer.

No way. It’s not as simple as inserting the hybrid system into the car. Even if the hardware isn’t too expensive, you’ll need an army of electrical and computer engineers to have the damn thing running properly.

[Ben1445]

That's not what I meant. Same rules for everyone.  Make the manufacturers run non hybrid cars like the privateers. People will complain they are not as fast, so give them all more fuel. Worked like a charm for a decade in Group C. I'de love to see that kind of stability again.

Wow. 

 

Honestly, if you really think the ACO are ever going to go back to non-hybrids, especially now they've announced their zero emissions hydrogen for 2024 plan, you are at best engaging in extremely wishful thinning. Stick to IMSA, WEC is just not for you. 

[LeClerc]

I read today that the privateers are as fast as the Toyotas but are being run badly.

Mind you, I don’t think much of the guy who said that.

[Joseki]

I read today that the privateers are as fast as the Toyotas but are being run badly.

Mind you, I don’t think much of the guy who said that.

Don't worry, we don't think much of your opinions on the guy either.

[ezequiel]

Didn't Zytek run a hybrid lmp1 years ago which was pretty poor?

[Dr. Austin]

Honestly, if you really think the ACO are ever going to go back to non-hybrids, especially now they've announced their zero emissions hydrogen for 2024 plan, you are at best engaging in extremely wishful thinning. 

 

Then they are going to continue having small fields, especially since they are projecting the new Mega GT series (or whatever they are going to call it) will budget out at $30 million.

 

Contrast to something that actually makes sense, like ELMS/P2/P3, and we could have 30 car prototype fields. The WEC could have a healthy series. They just don't want to do what it takes, which is take care of the privateers first.

 

Right now we only have something like seven P1 cars, and that's including the Bykolles, which you hardly ever see unless it's being lapped. What do you imagine will happen if the teams have to run a more expensive, more complicated car? We might get more entries if we had a race to the moon and back.  We had six Apollo landings, which is only one less than the amount of cars we have now.

 

Yeah, I do get it that most of you want the most exotic, expensive and advanced cars ever, and so do I. Just come up with a way to pay for it and then it will make sense.

[Dr. Austin]

Didn't Zytek run a hybrid lmp1 years ago which was pretty poor?

 

Well, if you can't remember it, it must not have been very good.

[Dr. Austin]

I read today that the privateers are as fast as the Toyotas but are being run badly.
 

 

Yeah, Rebellion doesn't know what they are doing and their drivers suck.

 

But sure, I would never expect a Toyota driver to admit how big their advantage is.That would be a good way to get EOT slapped. When they are thumping the field by four laps it's not fair to suggest things are not out of whack.

[DN5]

Oh dear - i was away for the weekend but when I left I checked that the recording of the race was still there but I have returned to find the recording disappeared. I was looking forward to watching the race today but I have just caught a 6 minute version that doesn't really work for me.I cannot even talk about the privateer issue apart from it appearing that they still can't get clean races they need.

[MurMur80]

Alonso is motorsports Donald Trump. 

[Joseki]

The actual quotes from Alonso


 

"People are always talking about Toyota's dominance, but SMP and Rebellion were doing the same times as us when they had a clear lap," said Alonso.
"To have a car that's been developed for four months doing the same times as a Toyota with 10 years of development is unfair, if we want to call it that, but they nailed it.
"Other times they lose three or four minutes more than us in the pitstops during the six hours, and then when they finish three or four laps behind, it looks as if the Toyotas are racing alone, but that's the result of a race that's perfectly executed."

He never said privateers are as fast as Toyota.

Edited by Joseki, 16 October 2018 - 20:07.

[BillBald]

The actual quotes from Alonso


 

He never said privateers are as fast as Toyota.

 

I think he's saying that the Toyota drivers are rubbish, and they just have better pitstops.

 

[TF110]

He's true on that. Based on the fast sector times the non-hybrids are nearly as fast as the Toyota. They don't get the times consistently though. And they crash or are unreliable or not as quick in the pits. Traffic is another area too.

[BillBald]

He's true on that. Based on the fast sector times the non-hybrids are nearly as fast as the Toyota. They don't get the times consistently though. And they crash or are unreliable or not as quick in the pits. Traffic is another area too.

 

I suspect that the Toyota's could go a little faster if they needed to, whereas SMP and Rebellion are pushing to the limit, hence the retirements..

 

It was interesting that the FWD cars seemed to have less of an advantage in the wet, but again perhaps a little more caution was being shown. At the start we saw the no 7 car overtaking 2 cars on traction out of the first corner, it really seemed to be in a different class.

[BillBald]

Oh dear - i was away for the weekend but when I left I checked that the recording of the race was still there but I have returned to find the recording disappeared. I was looking forward to watching the race today but I have just caught a 6 minute version that doesn't really work for me.I cannot even talk about the privateer issue apart from it appearing that they still can't get clean races they need.

 

I found the entire race on Youtube - Spanish commentary.

[DN5]

I found the entire race on Youtube - Spanish commentary.

 

Thanks for this - it looks like Eurosport carried the entire race but not the UK version