40 replies to this topic

[TerryS]

The argument about which was the first AGP has gone on for some time, particularly on this forum.

I thought it was now accepted by everyone including CAMS that the first AGP was in 1927 in Goulburn.

It has resurfaced again.

The organisers of a car show in Melbourne this weekend are now claiming to be celebrating the 90th Anniversary of the AGP's first ever running.

They have "a display of the very first winner from 1928"

They are either a year late or ignoring history.

Surely CAMS should step in and restrain them from this false advertising.

Otherwise all car shows can make up stories about their displays.

[GreenMachine]

As an ex-Goulburnite, perhaps I should go down there with a can of spray paint ...

[Ray Bell]

I don't think the CAMS ever accepted the idea that Goulburn had any rights to the title...

And the Melbourne establishment would never admit it anyway.

[Lee Nicolle]

I don't think the CAMS ever accepted the idea that Goulburn had any rights to the title...

And the Melbourne establishment would never admit it anyway.

My read on the situation as well. Had a discussion recently with a vintage competitor who knew more than me. 

CAMS accept PI in 28. There must have been a sactioning organisation even in 27 and 28? Or was it apply to the Brits!

In reality over the decades we have had 'headline' races with no official body sanctions. And many categories do not have a national championship but have 'National' instead. Vees FF HQ and Hyundia among others.

Speedway has been bad with World Championships at several tracks as well as two Speedcar and Super Modified titles per year for most of the 70s .

[Catalina Park]

I was told by a CAMS person that the Goulburn event wasn't a proper GP because all the corners went the same way and it was run on dirt.

[Ray Bell]

Terry, motor sport in the pre-CAMS days came under the AAA...

Whether various events were actually conducted under their umbrella, I don't know. But they were in the same position as the CAMS was from 1953 onwards. It was the AAA, for instance, who started the trend to rotate the AGP between the states so that it would truly be Australian.

Michael, that is just too funny!

[john medley]

Lovely, Michael, please put that in a time capsule.

 

The estimable John Lackey edited that little green "1927 Australian Grand Prix" book ( in which I had a share too), where several critiques of  1927 vs 1928 appeared, some with tongue firmly in cheek, but nevertheless trying to cope with many issues like 1928 wasn't called "Australian Grand Prix" but 1927 was so called...… As I recall, Bernie Jacobson's review in "The Automobile" almost exploded at this iconoclasm.

 

May I add the lovely line " Do you know why early racing cars look funny to us?"; answer  " Because early racing car makers didn't know what a racing car was supposed to look like"

… applies to history too

[Ray Bell]

One wonders whether Michael's 'reason' is why - substituting loose gravel for the dirt surface - no Victorians ran in the '49 AGP...




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 12 October 2018 - 22:11.

[TerryS]

I don't think the CAMS ever accepted the idea that Goulburn had any rights to the title...

And the Melbourne establishment would never admit it anyway.

When the second edition of the AGP History book was released in 2015 it included 30 more races.
This included 29 races to take it to 2014, plus also the first AGP in 1927.

On the cover it is noted as "The official history" and includes the CAMS logo.

Would CAMS allow its logo and the words "official history" to be used if it did no agree with 1927 being the first AGP?

[john medley]

Ray Bell and John Medley were original contributors to that 1985 book, but never contacted re the next edition, nor  ( in my case) ever paid. I discovered the new edition by accident. It appears unremarkable that neither CAMS nor publisher has acted properly, nor communicated in any way.

[MarkBisset]

You are a ****-stirrer Terence!

We probably, with CAMS approval of course- all knowing and all seeing as they are, need to re-label the early 'AGP's to reflect their true nature into Pissant, Piccolo, Petite and Grande Prix?

The 1927 Goulburn jobbie is the Australian Pissant Prix as any contest between a cuppla cars over 6 and a bit miles can only be considered thus however grand it's promoters annointed it

The 1928 100 Miles Road race outta Cowes split into 2 races over 100 miles is the Australian Piccolo Prix

The 1929 to 1935 Phillip Island 200 milers are getting closer to the real deal but they were for under 2 litre cars like the 1928 one so they were the Australian Petite Prix's

The 1937 one, sorry 1936 one, at Victor Harbour was more 'man size'- 250 miles and for unlimited cars, so that's surely the first Australian Grande Prix? , ignoring the fact it was called the 'South Australian Centenary Road Race' at the time?

I'll fill in the application in triplicate and send it orf to Mr Papadopoulos shorty

Edited by MarkBisset, 13 October 2018 - 07:40.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by John Medley
Ray Bell and John Medley were original contributors to that 1985 book, but never contacted re the next edition, nor (in my case) ever paid. I discovered new edition by accident. It appears unremarkable that neither CAMS nor publisher has acted properly, nor communicated in any way.

Nor was I ever paid, John...

Worse, I wasn't given the chance to make corrections which could have applied to those chapters I wrote.

If you look at the 'Australian GP in Former Days' thread...

https://forums.autos...mer-days/page-1

...you will see several notes I have made about errors in the 1985 book.

Principally these relate to results and details therein, little details in some cases, more serious ones in others. I have no idea whether the result panels - which as you know were not our work - have carried over to the new book but I'm quite sure they weren't aware of the errors I later found.

No, I've never seen the new book. And I doubt that the CAMS paid any more than a passing interest in being associated with its publication.

[Lee Nicolle]

You are a ****-stirrer Terence!

We probably, with CAMS approval of course- all knowing and all seeing as they are, need to re-label the early 'AGP's to reflect their true nature into Pissant, Piccolo, Petite and Grande Prix?

The 1927 Goulburn jobbie is the Australian Pissant Prix as any contest between a cuppla cars over 6 and a bit miles can only be considered thus however grand it's promoters annointed it

The 1928 100 Miles Road race outta Cowes split into 2 races over 100 miles is the Australian Piccolo Prix

The 1929 to 1935 Phillip Island 200 milers are getting closer to the real deal but they were for under 2 litre cars like the 1928 one so they were the Australian Petite Prix's

The 1937 one, sorry 1936 one, at Victor Harbour was more 'man size'- 250 miles and for unlimited cars, so that's surely the first Australian Grande Prix? , ignoring the fact it was called the 'South Australian Centenary Road Race' at the time?

I'll fill in the application in triplicate and send it orf to Mr Papadopoulos shorty

GPs have generally run too a formula and the 28 on races were a Formula.

[ken devine]

At sometime in the past Speedway in the Eastern States had an event called the Australian Grand Prix.

[Catalina Park]

About the 1928 race, I can find plenty of newspaper stories in the lead up to the event describing it as the "First Australian Grand Prix" but the best one is from The Herald on the 6th of Feb 1928.



It appears clear that the organisers intend it not to be a Grand Prix but a warm up to an actual Grand Prix.

Edited by Catalina Park, 14 October 2018 - 02:50.

[Lee Nicolle]

At sometime in the past Speedway in the Eastern States had an event called the Australian Grand Prix.

On no end of occasion.

Plus the World Sprintcar title in Perth as well.

Though I do stir up a HQ Nationals winner as World Champion,, HQs ever only raced in Oz so he was World Champ.

[Catalina Park]

HQs ever only raced in Oz so he was World Champ.

They raced in NZ as well.

[Ray Bell]

The 'Nationals' events for Vees, HQs and Clubmans are deliberately not 'Championships'...

These categories are not able to have Australian Championships, but the Vee people started their own big event of the year and called it the 'Vee Nationals' back around 1970 to overcome this apparent shortfall.

[TerryS]

To ascertain what CAMS regard as the first AGP I emailed them asking for a full listing of all AGP winners.

I was hoping this would disclose the year of first AGP

To date I have emailed them three times over recent week but have had NO response.

Each time all I get is the following form response:

"Thanks for your enquiry.
Your response has been recorded and a CAMS staff member will contact you shortly"

What can one say?

[Ray Bell]

Perhaps they are trying to show that Kevin Carrad was right?

"CAMS," he told many, "is a bunch of eccentrics running around in circles knocking hell out of their followers."

[john medley]

Or was it Reg Babb, whose words were "Cams! A bunch of eccentric lumps, bashing their follower at every turn!" ?

[Ray Bell]

I only ever heard Kevin Carrad say it, and he was well-rehearsed at saying it...

But he didn't express any view that perhaps he had a mortgage on the thought.

[TerryS]

After four requests I have finally been advised by email by CAMS that the first Australian Grand Prix was held in 1928.

So much for that OFFICIAL AGP History book with the CAMS logo on front that said it was 1927

Edited by TerryS, 26 November 2018 - 08:20.

[john medley]

At the risk of re-opening old wounds on too many of us, might I suggest you, Terry S, and we, the rest of us, just grin and bear it.

 

We live in a time where the political class worldwide is uncharming, noisy, and right-tending: several recent Australian elections also suggest electorates increasingly refuse to grin and bear it. When current  politics  and politicians unselfishly dedicated to a lifetime of personal advancement intersect with scribblers who write stuff down, there is inevitable trouble; when the CAMS fills all these roles with such certainty with strong assertions about Being Right in all roles, we have little hope. It wasnt just New York's ex-mayor who said :The Truth is not The Truth; the CAMS claims that too. We live in a mad mad world.

 

I continue to find joy in (Catalina Park)Michael Hickey's lovely comment " I was told by a CAMS person that the 1927 race wasnt a proper Grand Prix because they turned left and ran on dirt".

 

.. which is also why I quoted the early aeroplane line:" early aeroplanes look funny to us  because early aeroplane makers didnt know what an aeroplane was supposed to look like". Toss in " there are three sorts of people in the world-- those who understand mathematics and those who dont",  and one has a sufficient summary of a traditional point of view. Then add to this the impact of social media and the way this allows some to avoid contemplating counter arguments/assertions, and ... MURKY! Add further the advertising etc revenue in supplying each consumer  with precisely the information each thinks he wants/needs, and communication including history is warped at warp speed, Rational discussion thus becomes a problem.

 

We should thank perhaps a prescient Don Capps (or A N Other) for naming this The Nostalgia Forum, not The Facts Forum. Nostalgia is easy; Facts arent. One historian wrote " Historians will more vigorously argue matters of fact than matters of opinion"

 

And you, Terry S , should not thank that evil Mark Bissett (who continues to do a great job with his Primotipo):  you should not be swayed or provoked by his ****-stirrer accusations.

[Ray Bell]

John, just to be sure we get all the right nuances, Michael wrote:

 

"I was told by a CAMS person that the Goulburn event wasn't a proper GP because all the corners went the same way and it was run on dirt."

 

In fact, when you think about it, the irony only exists because those racing at Phillip Island turned right.

[MarkBisset]

Here I am, minding my own business, researching an article on the Holden 48-215, of all things, in one Mr Medley's works of wonder and at the same time the rapscallion is besmirching my good name!
Evil Mark does have a nice ring to it mind you.
Good evening chaps, just leave CAMS to it...
Always best to avoid them if at all possible
I see that nice Mr Papadopoulos is back as El Presidente too, happy days indeed
'Tis said we get the leaders we deserve
In any event I've moved on from the first AGP in 1927 to the first Australian Touring Car Championship at Lobethal in 1939!
M

Edited by MarkBisset, 26 November 2018 - 10:53.

[john medley]

I dont wish to divert Terry S'  legitimate concern about our history being propagandized by our government (CAMS), as though our government appears to believe this foolish inaccuracy is CAMS' right, might I ask Mark Bissett about the Patrick Ryan/Ian Tate/ Mark Bissett presentation to Auto Historians of Australia?

[Lee Nicolle]

Here I am, minding my own business, researching an article on the Holden 48-215, of all things, in one Mr Medley's works of wonder and at the same time the rapscallion is besmirching my good name!
Evil Mark does have a nice ring to it mind you.
Good evening chaps, just leave CAMS to it...
Always best to avoid them if at all possible
I see that nice Mr Papadopoulos is back as El Presidente too, happy days indeed
'Tis said we get the leaders we deserve
In any event I've moved on from the first AGP in 1927 to the first Australian Touring Car Championship at Lobethal in 1939!
M

Do not use the early Holden thread as facts!!

[MarkBisset]

John,
I was grateful to be asked along by Patrick and Tony Lupton- our session was 70% Tateys interesting recollections with Q&A Pat and I the balance.
The content was great; http://www.autohisto...onference-2018/
Don Capps had a corker of a preso on early racing in the cities of the US- but it was 60 minutes in 30 which became 20 after others ran over- a real shame- would still love to see it without time limits.
AHA is working out where to next as a group? My suggestion ( in an email post gig) noting the academic RMIT core was a 20% split each as to academic, design, racing, industry and the future- it will be interesting to see where they land.
Pat, Bob King and I all said up the racing content a smidge and some racers will come along.
Worth getting involved.
Mark

[MarkBisset]

Further to the post above about 'Automotive Historians Australia'

see this stunning paper by President Harriet Edquist on Repco- some of the racing stuff may not be exactly as I see it but it's a wonderful paper - included to allow you guys to see the calibre of the research

https://static1.squa...ST AHA 2016.pdf

Off topic, apols

Mark

[Catalina Park]

My thoughts about the date of first Australian Grand Prix is that since CAMS was formed in 1953 their opinion isn't really relevant. They weren't there, they didn't exist and they had nothing to do with it.

[Ray Bell]

Do you suggest, then, that the CAMS not hold any records prior to their inception?

Or, better, that they accept counsel from historians on those records?

[Michael Ferner]

Guys, would you relax a little bit? "Australian Grand Prix" is just a name, not an institution. Anyone can use it, and there's no obligation for an organizing club to count all previous occurrences of the name. Just check the history of the French Grand Prix, for example: there were several different clubs organizing Grands Prix in France, from memory ACF, MCF, UMF and FFSA for starters. Each club had their own numerical sequence, and why not? Nothing to get hot about.

[Wirra]

...see this stunning paper by President Harriet Edquist on Repco- some of the racing stuff may not be exactly as I see it but it's a wonderful paper - included to allow you guys to see the calibre of the research

https://static1.squa...ST AHA 2016.pdf
 

Hear hear.

[Ian G]

Guys, would you relax a little bit? "Australian Grand Prix" is just a name, not an institution. Anyone can use it, and there's no obligation for an organizing club to count all previous occurrences of the name. Just check the history of the French Grand Prix, for example: there were several different clubs organizing Grands Prix in France, from memory ACF, MCF, UMF and FFSA for starters. Each club had their own numerical sequence, and why not? Nothing to get hot about.

 

I agree FWIW,Greyhounds have a Melbourne Cup.However its interesting to see its origins/background in Aust. and the passion from researchers to verify same.

 

On a similar theme i watched the Documentary 'Flats' on Foxtel last week,its about a Motorcycle racer setting a  'Australian' Record on Lake Gairdner in SA. Its run by a mob called the DLRA and Records are set in MPH,i can't see where they are linked with the Drag or Hotrodder Associations in Aust. but they get Govt. approval to run Meetings so must have some links somewhere.

If anyone wants to set a Australian Record this is the place to do it.

 

https://www.dlra.org...record-bike.htm

Edited by Ian G, 29 November 2018 - 22:59.

[TerryS]

So to conclude we have two car races:

One in 1927 at Goulburn was called the "Australian Grand Prix"

The other in 1928 at Philip Island was called "The 100 miles road race".

Which would you pick as the first AGP?

[Ray Bell]

Which one did you say was on a dirt track and the corners only went one way?

[DanTra2858]

What differance does a name make as long as we know about them is all we have to know as far as I am concerned.

[SJ Lambert]

Automobiles Australia 1960

Appendix

[Ray Bell]

There's no mention there of Goulburn's race in 1927, James...

Was that published in Melbourne? Or was it a CAMS-sanctioned list?

And was the straight 8 Bugatti really of the same displacement as the fours?

[SJ Lambert]