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W Series 2019


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#601 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 16:12

There's a couple of "average" drivers in that list, but there's also two world champions, multiple winners of either Grands Prix or other top level races and generally superb drivers in that list.

Brits are generally good but in F1 these were avarage. Like Italian Zanardi - avarage in F1 but God in Indycar etc etc. I could even add Coluthard, Irvine and Damon (who I am big fan of) as avarage but I did not :) and you can take Herbert out if you like but in my subjective opinion he was around for too long and was avarage who lucked into all of his wins.

Anyway Joylon was GP2 champion, right? He won that one because his British dad has a lot of power and connection in Motorsport so he stayed in for long enough to win it.

Having said that it is most natural because the Brits are running motorsport on this side of the pond. No hate just reality.

I wonder what happens if you divide number of (British drivers times x races they entered) by point or race win scored and compare to other nations.

That is offtop and sorry.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 28 March 2019 - 16:22.


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#602 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 16:21

There's more to motorsport success than F1. F1 is also so car dependent that you may miss out on success no matter how good you are. That's why W Series is going for a wider goal of getting these girls opportunities anywhere.



#603 ensign14

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 16:35

It is true that Brits had a lot of World Champions, but they have also saturated F1 with most mediocre bunch by far. Since I started watching F1 it was always full of likes of Herbert, Davidson, Joylon, diResta, Stevens, Chilton, Brundle, Blundell, McNish, Wilson. This must be the result of the fact that most teams are based in UK and most staff working in F1 is British. Some thing happening now in FW.

 

Stevens, Palmer, and Chilton were those rare beasts - British pay drivers.  Herbert is a GP winner and Le Mans winner, McNish has won Le Mans and been sportscar champ, Wilson won in IndyCar, Davidson is a sportscar world champ.

 

My formative years watching F1 included the likes of Andy Wallace, Geoff Lees, and a bit later Marc Hynes and Jamie Green, all missing out on getting proper top drives, whereas utter cack like Adrian Campos, Francois Hesnault, and Andrea de Cesaris wasted seats.
 



#604 E1pix

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 17:02

Regardless of Series origin and admins, I think we all know that the hotbed of road racing development opportunities lie in England.

The last American to win any F1 race (Aurora Series) was a friend and mentor of mine, once quoting to me "The day of the 20 year-old F1 driver is fast approaching, and the place to be is England." That was 1976.

I see no preferential treatment per the numbers here. If this had been an oval driver search, I'd expect Americans to lead the way, or Finland if it was rallying, or....

#605 ensign14

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 17:07

Finns have dropped off in rallying lately.  It's all about Sebastians.



#606 scheivlak

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 17:08

Beitske Visser: "It was all very close. The level was high. In the end they mainly looked at the lap times."

 

"Six or seven drivers were within a few tenths of each other. I think they will be the ones who will fight for the win this season. And of course I will go to the races with the idea of fighting for the win."

 

Visser knew already on Wednesday that she was sure. The organizers published twelve names already before the final test day. "I was already chosen. So I didn't have to drive the last day in Almeria. I would have liked to but of course you're glad to hear you're one of the top twelve."

 

"In Almeria it was just about your driving abilities.The first selection was also about physical composure, a psychological test and media training. So the selection was already made with that in mind."

 

And of course Beitske makes the obligatory remarks about F! as the ultimate goal: https://nos.nl/artik...tieme-doel.html

 

 



#607 noikeee

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 17:16

I'd be hugely surprised if Visser made it to F1, her F3.5 results were awful and effectively she never really did anything in the junior ladder.

 

I really don't think there's a F1 driver in here, the level seems to be equivalent to an obscure F3/F4 national series. I don't think finding a F1 driver is necessarily the goal so that's fine, we already know that's pretty unlikely due to the very small talent pool.



#608 ArcticRacing

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 17:37

I'd be hugely surprised if Visser made it to F1, her F3.5 results were awful and effectively she never really did anything in the junior ladder.

Visser was in ADAC F4, and then in FR3.5, it was a far too big step as she never run in F3. But indeed, I don't think she will be able to reach F1.



#609 secessionman

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 07:31

Nothing to add just now, except what a shame she didn't make it. Disappointed horse.

 

 

Yeah Chadwick or Powell ftw. .... but my pal Natalie Decker is through to the next round.

Mwwuuhh
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Edited by secessionman, 29 March 2019 - 07:31.


#610 E1pix

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 17:13

Pro-male appears to equate to treating women equally to men in your eyes. And I am not going to harrass and stalk female drivers just to please you.


I suggested you learn the challenges facing women drivers from *their* perspective, not just yours.

#611 BRG

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 17:33

I suggested you learn the challenges facing women drivers from *their* perspective, not just yours.

Whereas you are already blessed with this knowledge?  A typical paternalistic male viewpoint.

 

I am backing equality, as in treating everyone the same, irrespective of their chromosomes.  Everyone faces challenges, whatever 'perspective' you care to view them from.



#612 E1pix

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 17:41

I've spoken with many lady drivers, Yes.

That still doesn't mean I fully understand, being a guy, but I do know what they've said.

Stop twisting my words, Thanks.

#613 Requiem84

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Posted 29 March 2019 - 18:33

Whereas you are already blessed with this knowledge?  A typical paternalistic male viewpoint.

 

I am backing equality, as in treating everyone the same, irrespective of their chromosomes.  Everyone faces challenges, whatever 'perspective' you care to view them from.

 

To arrive at equality, you sometimes have to positively discriminate.

 

Making up the differences isn't suddenly happening because someone is saying 'from now on we'll treat man and women equally'.

 

The different treatment is embedded consciously and subconsciously into many societal systems. 

 

It's the same as asking someone with a visual handicap don't you see it? It's right in front of you? If you don't see it, it doesn't exist specifically for you, but it might exist for someone else... 



#614 BRG

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 17:54

It's the same as asking someone with a visual handicap don't you see it? It's right in front of you? If you don't see it, it doesn't exist specifically for you, but it might exist for someone else... 

No, it isn't.  Really, it isn't.  Hopelessly inappropriate metaphor.



#615 Requiem84

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 17:57

No, it isn't.  Really, it isn't.  Hopelessly inappropriate metaphor.


You’re proving my point again ;-).

Do you think men realized they were discriminating women when they did not grant them voting rights? At that time it seemed completely logical, even for smart persons. Within that time the persoective is very different than when you look back 100 years later.

But perhaps you are immune to blind spots? I for sure have had my fair share.

#616 BRG

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 18:04

Do you think men realized they were discriminating women when they did not grant them voting rights?

Yet again, a hopelessly inappropriate metaphor.  Nobody is forbidding women from entering motor sport, except in places like Saudi Arabia, or putting obstacles in their way.  Women have competed in motor sport for 100+ years.  Now you want to discriminate against them by making them a 'special case' and putting them in all-female series.  That is about as retrograde as you can get. 



#617 E1pix

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 19:19

The obstacle for women is that racing remains a mostly-male sport.

By sheer lack of female participation, for whatever reasons, we simply don't fully know whether a woman can operate at a winning level in F1. If it turns out there's physical limits as in other sports, then it's only fair to have a valid championship for them.

The driver camaraderie has to be extremely healthy in W Series, as it is for men in every other discipline, so we now have 18 "employed" drivers that were likely scrambling for 2019 funding like every other year. Their statements reflect this.

One known exception so far -- and rallying another; largely in thanks to the exceptional Mouton who was simply given a chance -- is drag racing. The consistent competitiveness of many women there may dispel some sciences that claim reaction times are better in men. Drag racing is sheer reaction time, but zero endurance.

I think it's great to see women like Natalie Decker showing real talent in a place where Danica had little success. Simona and Katherine showed well in IndyCar, more very good signs. I personally think a woman can be successful in F1, and the only way to know is more women in race cars.

One can argue women have every opportunity as men, but grids throughout the world still show inarguably otherwise.

#618 DanardiF1

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 19:23

The obstacle for women is that racing remains a mostly-male sport.

By sheer lack of female participation, for whatever reasons, we simply don't fully know whether a woman can operate at a winning level in F1. If it turns out there's physical limits as in other sports, then it's only fair to have a valid championship for them.

The driver camaraderie has to be extremely healthy in W Series, as it is for men in every other discipline, so we now have 18 "employed" drivers that were likely scrambling for 2019 funding like every other year. Their statements reflect this.

One known exception so far -- and rallying another; largely in thanks to the exceptional Mouton who was simply given a chance -- is drag racing. The consistent competitiveness of many women there may dispel some sciences that claim reaction times are better in men. Drag racing is sheer reaction time, but zero endurance.

I think it's great to see women like Natalie Decker showing real talent in a place where Danica had little success. Simona and Katherine showed well in IndyCar, more very good signs. I personally think a woman can be successful in F1, and the only way to know is more women in race cars.

One can argue women have every opportunity as men, but grids throughout the world still show inarguably otherwise.

 

How do you know that the amount of females competing isn't simply the sum total of female interest in being a racing driver? We know that not just socially but at a fundamental brain level men and women demonstrate different interest, so we should expect an equal amount of interest in motorsport participation from men and women...

 

There are even examples like Tatiana Calderon of females being given more opportunity despite not demonstrating aptitude... there's no way she lands her Alfa/Sauber gig and her F2 seat without being female.


Edited by DanardiF1, 30 March 2019 - 19:25.


#619 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 20:25

How do you know that the amount of females competing isn't simply the sum total of female interest in being a racing driver? We know that not just socially but at a fundamental brain level men and women demonstrate different interest, so we should expect an equal amount of interest in motorsport participation from men and women...

 

There are even examples like Tatiana Calderon of females being given more opportunity despite not demonstrating aptitude... there's no way she lands her Alfa/Sauber gig and her F2 seat without being female.

That's fair. If there is a high school class of 20, 10 boys, 10 girls and there is a kart race, take part if you like to, how many of each will show up to actually drive and try to win? In most cases, the boys will be more into it. 
Think of it this way. There are just about as many girls from wealthy parents as there are boys. If a rich girl really presses that she wants to do something, she'll get funding for it even if the parents had other plans/hopes for her. Yet, we see few women getting their parents to pay for Williams F1 tests and the like. 
Women will likely never have the numbers over men. And that's fine, we can't be the same. We need more men in front of class rooms and on nurse duty but that's also not going to radically change. 

Giving a slow woman more opportunities is not going to help a lot. Perhaps Calderon could have been with a slightly better team but if we're honest, the teams are really tightly matched and she'sfar of her team mate. I'm not happy with that at all, but it is what it is.



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#620 E1pix

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 21:16

Great viewpoints, you both.

I agree that the numbers will never be equal, and don't need to be. This Series may well answer a lot of questions for us, but I do like seeing new opportunities this brings. I also agree I don't like sponsor funding having bias, either, that's not fair to a potentially-quicker guy -- unless the sponsor is directed in a gender market.

Much of the funds that may have otherwise gone to these ladies this year, deserved or not, are now potentially available to male drivers. We'll all know a lot more about whether the Series is/was a good thing soon enough. People are spending a ton of money here, at a time when racing needs all the fans it can get.

I wish all of them the Best.

#621 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 21:50

If we assume there are five times as many boys into racing than girls, against the current crop of F1 stars, we should have a elbowing herself into the top 5 to make it 6.

HAM, VET, VER, LEC, RIC, HUL and Ms. X would be the top-6 in the sport right now. Say she'd be on the level of the average top 5er, she'd be equal for 3rd.

We can do the match for 10 to 1 etc. But it does seem that if girls would get more thumbs up for wanting to be a racer, we should have one mixing it up in F1. Maybe not one but multiple. On merit.



#622 jonpollak

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 22:26

Nothing to add just now, except what a shame she didn't make it. Disappointed horse.

 

That's very sweet of you thanks.

Nat's fine, she said she learned bucket loads and still has 2 full season rides waiting for her this year .

(NASCAR Trucks and Trans-Am)

 

Jp
 



#623 joonz

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 22:44

 

Kimiläinen was a Scandinavian champion in F Ford, then getting podiums and other good results in F4 ADAC, and F3 FPA, then no more money and end of single-seater career. She end 1 race on 3 on the podium during her career and said today on Instagram her target to win W Series 2019. She probably has too much confidence, but she can also join the fight for victory if she recover her past speed.

 

Kimiläinen also did pretty well against some K.Magnussen as teammate, especially at Assen except that Magnussen crashed her out due to brake problems when she was leading the first race of the weekend IIRC.



#624 proviz

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 07:00

The essential thing about Emma Kimiläinen is that she truly is The Queen of Self-Promotion. She's habitually presented as some sort of celebrity even though very few Finns know who she is. The publicity she gets is out of all proportion and even paved her way into politics.



#625 Rinehart

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 08:44

Yet again, a hopelessly inappropriate metaphor.  Nobody is forbidding women from entering motor sport, except in places like Saudi Arabia, or putting obstacles in their way.  Women have competed in motor sport for 100+ years.  Now you want to discriminate against them by making them a 'special case' and putting them in all-female series.  That is about as retrograde as you can get. 

For absolute starters they're not being "put in" a female series, they're being invited in. They can still choose to stick to mixed competition. W Series represents one of 1000 different series. Please don't paint a picture that the entire world has changed. 



#626 E1pix

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 16:11

I admit it, I love women; as friends, as clients, as people. My best friend is one, and I can't imagine these last 41 years without her.

Who can watch the videos and read the words of these drivers without feeling good for them? They have a big chance here and it's reflected in everything they say, and every glint in their eye. As a human, that warms my heart. I feel it.

Does this opportunity say more about them, or about us?

#627 BRG

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 17:25

I admit it, I love women; as friends, as clients, as people. My best friend is one, and I can't imagine these last 41 years without her.

Who can watch the videos and read the words of these drivers without feeling good for them? They have a big chance here and it's reflected in everything they say, and every glint in their eye. As a human, that warms my heart. I feel it.

Does this opportunity say more about them, or about us?

Stop it! I'm welling up here....



#628 7MGTEsup

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 19:24

Stop it! I'm welling up here....

 

Simpsons-sarcasm-detector_trans_NvBQzQNj



#629 Requiem84

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 19:32

Yet again, a hopelessly inappropriate metaphor. Nobody is forbidding women from entering motor sport, except in places like Saudi Arabia, or putting obstacles in their way. Women have competed in motor sport for 100+ years. Now you want to discriminate against them by making them a 'special case' and putting them in all-female series. That is about as retrograde as you can get.


You again (purposely?) fail to see the real metaphor: it is not a metaphor about the W-series, it’s about how us men fail to see discrimative elements of our time in which we currently live.

The men who refused women voting rights felt that it was completey normal. It took some very brave women (and men) to overturn that situation.

Perhaps you feel women have equal chances as men in motorsport. If so, I feel you have a big blindspot which you will only realize you have in 20 or 30 years :-).

#630 NotAPineapple

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 19:50

You again (purposely?) fail to see the real metaphor: it is not a metaphor about the W-series, it’s about how us men fail to see discrimative elements of our time in which we currently live.

The men who refused women voting rights felt that it was completey normal. It took some very brave women (and men) to overturn that situation.

Perhaps you feel women have equal chances as men in motorsport. If so, I feel you have a big blindspot which you will only realize you have in 20 or 30 years :-).

 

So is there any hard evidence of these hardships happening today? I'd argue that in motorsports, women have it better than men.



#631 jonpollak

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 20:28

Define ‘have it better’
Jp

#632 E1pix

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 05:29

As evidenced within, it's gotta be discouraging to be a lady driver and surrounded by men with knots in their heads.

#633 BRG

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 16:36

You again (purposely?) fail to see the real metaphor: it is not a metaphor about the W-series, it’s about how us men fail to see discrimative elements of our time in which we currently live.

The men who refused women voting rights felt that it was completey normal. It took some very brave women (and men) to overturn that situation.

Perhaps you feel women have equal chances as men in motorsport. If so, I feel you have a big blindspot which you will only realize you have in 20 or 30 years :-).

You might do a little studying of the issue. Some of the most outspoken opponents of women getting the right to vote were......other women.  And whilst there were indeed very active female proponents, in the end it was those same wretched men that saw the error of their ways and changed the law.   Which is all entirely irrelevant to the matter in hand, which is the retrograde step of segregating female racers in a series all of their own - where those who don't believe that women can do the job will point the finger and say 'Oh, she only beat some other women'. 

 

I have no blindspot.  It is those who still feel the paternalistic urge to protect and nuture their poor little ladies and treat them like children who need to be developed who are living in the past.  Still, in 20 or 30 years, perhaps you will realise just how blinkered and patronising you were being towards half of the human race.


Edited by BRG, 02 April 2019 - 16:38.


#634 E1pix

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 18:12

Amazing that you see expansion of opportunity as "demeaning" or "paternalistic."

Instead of men doing women's thinking for them, like you're endlessly doing, I still suggest you speak to them. That you consider opinion garnering as "stalking" is downright troubling.

Men who support this Series do so in seeing a void; of women driving race cars, and of women at the track. I get the distinct sense you want neither.

#635 paulb

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 20:12

In the ever-changing world of Racing Comment topic titles, perhaps this one should be updated too.



#636 E1pix

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 15:42

You're absolutely right, Paul, sorry for my part in going OT.

#637 paulb

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 16:46

You're absolutely right, Paul, sorry for my part in going OT.

Oh, no worries!

 

I was simply making a comment about the title that had nothing to do with your posts.



#638 paulb

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 11:29

Huh.......

 

https://msutoday.msu...gh-think-again/



#639 BRG

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Posted 11 April 2019 - 17:51

Thank heavens for that.  I am sure that we were all worrying about the implications of the menstrual cycle but were too discreet to mention it.  ;)



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#640 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 07:37

The better known drivers seem to be at the top in the test that happened this week. Garcia, Chadwick and Visser "are on the podium".

 

https://twitter.com/...194839894614017



#641 statman

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 10:16

on a side-note, Jamie Chadwick has become an official Aston Martin Junior (Red Bull lurking?   ;) )

 

https://www.motorspo...driver/4372101/

 

 

some pics:

 

D4SPskVWkAAiTPs.jpg

D4IF3IJWwAA-aiI.jpg

D4WgrTFXoAAT0D9.jpg



#642 7MGTEsup

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 10:41

Are the cars going to remain without sponsorship or is this just for testing?



#643 ensign14

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 10:47

And if they are going to be that blank, why not make the numbers bigger?



#644 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:17

Is Schiff racing with a German flag on her rear wing? I mean she has a German name (Schiff = ship, boat), but is there any other connection to Germany? :p

 

Edit: Wiki says she's currently living in Germany, so she probably simply went for a German motorsport licence.


Edited by thegforcemaybewithyou, 18 April 2019 - 12:42.


#645 Kalmake

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:42

Is Schiff racing with a German flag on her rear wing? I mean she has a German name (Schiff = ship, boat), but is there any other connection to Germany? :p

She lives in Germany. She must have nationality as well to be racing under that flag.



#646 HistoryFan

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 13:25

The better known drivers seem to be at the top in the test that happened this week. Garcia, Chadwick and Visser "are on the podium".

 

https://twitter.com/...194839894614017

 

That are my 3 Favorites. I really hope Garcia will win it.

 



#647 Sterzo

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 13:42

That are my 3 Favorites. I really hope Garcia will win it.
 

...and lurking in fourth place on the list is a rusty old woman who hasn't raced at all for some years. if she (Alice Powell) finds a tenth or two with more track time, there might be a four way battle at the front. It does look promising.


Edited by Sterzo, 18 April 2019 - 13:43.


#648 ensign14

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 13:47

Is it wrong that I'm immediately thinking of the BUT GRO PER game?

 

I can see, so far, MOO COO (a Scots bovine, or maybe BOVine), PEP PIR (could be spicy), and the energy drink POW WOH RDE.

 

(Also Sarah Bovy seems to have been given a run.  Testing the reserves as well?)



#649 Sterzo

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 13:56

Is it wrong that I'm immediately thinking of the BUT GRO PER game?

 

I can see, so far, MOO COO (a Scots bovine, or maybe BOVine), PEP PIR (could be spicy), and the energy drink POW WOH RDE.

 

(Also Sarah Bovy seems to have been given a run.  Testing the reserves as well?)

Very wrong.



#650 Cirio

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 14:39

What would be the situation if one of the current male F1 drivers decided to transition to female? Would that be allowed? I imagine Valerie Bottas or Daniella Kvyatt would have a good shot at the championship.

 

Or maybe they'd get beaten..... :lol: