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#51 BRG

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 18:06

In any case the trick is to ensure that, even if statistically there is a huge difference in interest, the girls who would want to be a racing driver are not disadvantaged at any stage in their quest because they are girls. And I would ague that that includes the stage of thinking 'is this something other people who are like me do?' which does kind of, on some level, govern our decision making whether we like it or not. 

 

I can't say if W-series is the right fit for that - it's not the route I would have gone with - but hey ho.

On the face of it, that sounds true.

 

But let me point to the example of rallying.  Now, this is a sport where WAGS get dragged along in droves to support their father/brother/boyfriend/husband/son and get close to the action either as part of a rally team or as spectators.

 

And interestingly, possible 30-40% of rally co-drivers are female.  Many, being smaller and lighter than us paunchy blokes, of the aforementioned WAGS are dragooned into the co-driver's seat, although then very many of them prove to be extremely competent at the more important part of the rally team's work.  You might think then that more of them would fancy a bash with the steering wheel.  But no, numbers of female rally drivers remain very low - probably a lot more than in car racing as a whole, but still penny numbers.  And this despite the examples of Michel Mouton, Louise Aitken-Walker and several other high profile female rally stars.

 

Perhaps working with maps, watches and pace-notes is more to the female taste than wrestling with steering wheels and gear-changes?  It is not a lack of opportunity although perhaps not being interested or willing to do your own car preparation is a barrier, which might also apply to racing. 



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#52 cpbell

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 18:38

In terms of basing criteria on biological sex, I think many members may not realise that the determination of someone's sex is occasionally very complex.  Broadly speaking, males have XY sex chromosomes, while females have XX, but this doesn't account for those who are classified as being genetically 'intersex', who may have XXY or X only.  There's also the question of which reproductive organs are present and whether all or some are fully-formed and are able to function as might be expected, and, finally, there is the problem of the endocrine system, wherein someone who is generally considered to be female can have higher levels of testosterone than someone who is classified as being male.  I'm far from being an expert in this field, and my understanding is somewhat out of date, but I have a working concept of the nuances of the matter as a biology graduate.

 

EDIT:  Link from the World Health Organisation:

http://www.who.int/g.../en/index1.html


Edited by cpbell, 19 October 2018 - 18:40.


#53 ExFlagMan

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 18:44

Interesting that you mentioned Louse Aitken-Walker, who at the start of her career, took part in the Faberge Ford Fiesta Championship, which was a women only series - her eventual co-driver, Ellen Morgan, also took part in the same series .



#54 Beri

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 21:41

When your ideology is that women are perfectly equal to men with everything, you begin to define just about everything rather loosely.


I am not. I dispute the reasoning that women can achieve the same results as men do. There are plenty of examples to do so.
Of all the sports there are, I will bet you 90% of them are better/faster executed by men. And that is nothing bad. You just have to accept the fact that women are built differently compared to men. And in that light you will have to admit that the results will virtually always benefit men if you compare sports that are executed by men and women.

#55 Vielleicht

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 22:12

On the face of it, that sounds true.

 

But let me point to the example of rallying.  Now, this is a sport where WAGS get dragged along in droves to support their father/brother/boyfriend/husband/son and get close to the action either as part of a rally team or as spectators.

 

And interestingly, possible 30-40% of rally co-drivers are female.  Many, being smaller and lighter than us paunchy blokes, of the aforementioned WAGS are dragooned into the co-driver's seat, although then very many of them prove to be extremely competent at the more important part of the rally team's work.  You might think then that more of them would fancy a bash with the steering wheel.  But no, numbers of female rally drivers remain very low - probably a lot more than in car racing as a whole, but still penny numbers.  And this despite the examples of Michel Mouton, Louise Aitken-Walker and several other high profile female rally stars.

 

Perhaps working with maps, watches and pace-notes is more to the female taste than wrestling with steering wheels and gear-changes?  It is not a lack of opportunity although perhaps not being interested or willing to do your own car preparation is a barrier, which might also apply to racing. 

Is a small handful of 'role models' enough? Is there a critical point at which the number of women racing means it stops being something unusual and that triggers an influx of many more young girls wanting to give it a go? We'll never really know unless things change from the way they are now.
 
But to me that is kind of secondary.
 
The current initiatives seem to be centered around a support system (be it financially or opportunity based) to ensure being female makes no difference to their prospects or basically an advertisement approach - such as saying 'hey look this is an option' and then maybe pointing those that show interest towards the support system. I don't think a reasonable person would find much wrong with either of those approaches when you do not consider the primary goal explicitly to be increasing female participation, only reducing the barriers. Increased participation might be something that happens as a result of said initiatives, but I think it's such an arbitrary thing to have targets for and and so unpredictable that it shouldn't really be considered a primary goal.
 
The primary goal is, as above, showing girls that it's a possibility and/or providing support to overcome any societal disadvantage if they need it. Increased participation not the measure of success, that would be 'have the barriers significantly become less difficult to overcome, or even eliminated?' If the answer is yes, there is success. So even if these initiatives help only a handful make it further than they would have done without it and convince only a handful more to try, then they will still have been a success. If somehow it starts an unexpected snowball effect and we have a 50-50 split by 2030 then, well, yay?


#56 HistoryFan

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 10:36

 


 

 
Julia Pankiewicz (Formula Renault)

 

 

Isn't her sister Viktoria Pankiweicz also racing?

 



#57 crooky369

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 10:39

Oh boy this thread is depressing. It was going well until it descended into the usual melting pot of hot controversial topics that most of us have seen ten times before.

For me there’s no real star female drivers other than Danica Patrick. It would be good to get her in the series not only for her popularity but also as a yardstick of performance that the other competitors could matchup against. My second pick would be Simona De Silvestro, she actually looked decent in IndyCar for a bit and had that link with Sauber in F1. Probably the best female in terms of speed going by her results in some top series.

They’re going to have to ‘make’ some stars quickly though when it starts. FTV race coverage and an aggressive social media policy is a must.

#58 HistoryFan

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 10:45

in Boss-GP there are Bianca Steiner and Veronika Cicha



#59 Vielleicht

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 11:56

Oh boy this thread is depressing. It was going well until it descended into the usual melting pot of hot controversial topics that most of us have seen ten times before.


Sorry

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#60 RA2

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 13:46

A review of the literature on the influence of gender on RT shows that in almost every age group, males have faster RTs as compared to females, and female disadvantage is not reduced by practice.[13,14,15] Researches done by Misra et al.[16] also showed that males responded faster than females. Study done by Shelton and Kumar,[11] Nikam and Gadkari[17] also reported similar findings to support females have longer RTs than males. The results of our study [Table 2a] agree with these studies and indicate that male medical students have faster RTs when compared to female medical students for both auditory, as well as visual stimuli. In our study when sedentary male and female medical students [Table 2b] were compared removing any confounding factors, RTs of male students were faster; thereby further supporting the evidence that males have faster RTs than females.

The male-female difference is due to the lag between the presentation of the stimulus and the beginning of muscle contraction. It is documented in the literature that the muscle contraction time is the same for males and females[18] and motor responses in males are comparatively stronger than females,[19] this explains why males have faster simple RTs for both auditory as well as visual stimuli. Nowadays the male advantage is getting smaller, possibly because more women are participating in driving and fast-action sports.[19] This is evident from Table 2c in which nonsignificant differences were obtained when regularly exercising male and female medical students were compared.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...port=objectonly
https://www.ncbi.nlm...es/PMC4456887/#!po=39.6552

#61 BRG

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 19:08

Interesting that you mentioned Louse Aitken-Walker, who at the start of her career, took part in the Faberge Ford Fiesta Championship, which was a women only series - her eventual co-driver, Ellen Morgan, also took part in the same series .

You're right of course.  She was in fact entered without her knowledge by her brothers, having never competed before.  She won it and went on to win the Ladies WRC but also competed on equal terms in British national rallies, taking an outright victory.  She also raced in the BTCC with some success.

 

Interestingly, her daughter Gina has taken up rallying having persuaded mother Louise and father Graham (also a rally person) to let her have a go.  So maybe having a female role model (even if it is your Mum) is the key to getting girls to try the sport.



#62 HistoryFan

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 14:06

Irina Sidorkova gave her debut this weekend in SMP Formula 4 series.



#63 phrank

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 14:11

They should find girls in karting series, else the series is pointless



#64 HistoryFan

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 13:07

therefore there should be a female karting series. That could attract more girls going to Racing.



#65 7MGTEsup

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 13:46

therefore there should be a female karting series. That could attract more girls going to Racing.

 

But what happens when they re converge with males at a later date in a higher formula? If you have only raced against the best female competitors will you be on a par with the best male competitors?

 

It's a very complex subject as to whether it's a lack of opportunity or a lack of interest that is holding back the flood of female competitors. And whether competing separately will be detrimental once they enter the mainstream.


Edited by 7MGTEsup, 23 October 2018 - 13:46.


#66 HistoryFan

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 13:28

Calderón says she wants to do Formula 2, not W Series.

 

Angela Vilarino could be in.



#67 statman

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:04



 



 

They're going to get female drivers from a variety of classes. Stéphane Kox says she has been approached, and she drives in GT4. She says they had a long list and they're now getting it down to a shorter list.

 

You could make a list like:

 

Tatiana Calderon (GP3)
Jamie Chadwick (F3)
Sophia Flörsch (F3)
Amna Al Qubaisi (F4)
Miki Koyama (F4)
Alexandra Mohnhaupt (F3/F4)
Marylin Niederhauser (F4)
Julia Pankiewicz (Formula Renault)
Sabre Cook  (USF2000)
Beitske Visser (GT4)
Chelsea Angelo (GT3)
Bianca Anton (GT4)
Laura Kraihamer (GT4)
Ashley Freiberg (GT4)
Sarah Bovy (GT3/Blancpain)
Esmee Hawkey (Porsche Carrera Cup)
Katilyn Hawkins (APC)
Chelsea Herbert (NZ V8)
Amy Smith (NZ Formula First)
Nicole Behar (Nascar K&N)
Julia Landauer (Nascar K&N)
Carmen Boix Gil (Nascar Whelen)
Ellexandra Best (Toyota 86)
Michelle Halder (STT)
Francesca Linossi (Super Trofeo)
Carrie Schreiner (Super Trofeo)
Jasmin Preisig (TCR)
Jessica Bäckman (TCR/STCC)
Vivien Keszthelyi (Audi LMS Cup)
Michelle Gatting (DTC)
 
there are some more girls in the junior categories in the US/AUS and perhaps regional F4 etc.
 
perhaps even:
 
Simona De Silvestro (V8 supercars)
Christina Nielsen (Imsa)
 
I guess the idea is to promote female racing and show girls what is possible. Might be interesting for someone like Marta Garcia, who's in karting and taking wins.

 

 

 

W Series unveils initial 55-driver list



#68 Ben1445

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:22

I still question the logic of this series but if they've had that many (and more) apply to give it a go then who am I to stop them? 



#69 Kev00

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:35


W Series unveils initial 55-driver list


Carmen Jorda LMAO. I thought this was to help talented women to get sponsors and funding.

#70 Anja

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:36

Meh. I just don't see how it's going to be of any help. I'm pretty sure that creating a development program along the lines of what F1 teams do would be a much better use for all the money that's going to go into this. 



#71 markeimas27

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:36

From the article,

 

"Alice Powell, the latter a champion in Formula Renault UK" 

 

She won the club BARC series not the UK series. Trying to bump her credentials to either make the W series look more impressive or herself is lame.

 

+

 

Carmen Jorda? Do they not understand what credibility means?

 

+

 

Of course they have a big entry list. Racing drivers are racing drivers (whether they are men or women) and when some schmuck turns up and offers to pay for their racing for a year, it doesn't matter if they are racing Robin Reliants, they will bite their hands off to get the drive. Free racing after all is free racing.

 

This series is doomed to failure for a whole host of reasons. 



#72 markeimas27

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:37

Meh. I just don't see how it's going to be of any help. I'm pretty sure that creating a development program along the lines of what F1 teams do would be a much better use for all the money that's going to go into this. 

 

The old Racing Steps Foundation was fantastic for example and helped a huge number of drivers in their careers. Such a fund is what this should be.



#73 Ben1445

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:38

Yeah you'd be strong willed to say no as an upcoming driver of someone offers you a free race seat  *ahem* Floersch.



#74 Vielleicht

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:41

Yeah you'd be strong willed to say no as an upcoming driver of someone offers you a free race seat  *ahem* Floersch.

She was indeed particularly vocal in being against this series.

 

I still think the budget for this series could be better spent on directly funding their entry to the existing ladder, but ok.



#75 jonpollak

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:53

I’m with Anja on the development program idea.

However meh this series appears to be I’m rather happy to see both American NASCAR drivers Natalie Decker and Toni Breidlinger up for seats.

Jp

#76 Kalmake

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 11:43

Talent pool must be very weak when Jorda is found more qualified than half the applicants.



#77 phrank

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 12:08

Talent pool must be very weak when Jorda is found more qualified than half the applicants.

Has there already been a selection before this list? I get the feeling these are all the applicants.. But half of these you can already remove instantly, if you are well in your 20s or above, you have no business in a F3-like series imho

 

(edited: no business of course)


Edited by phrank, 28 November 2018 - 16:14.


#78 jee

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 14:13

Talent pool must be very weak when Jorda is found more qualified than half the applicants.

I think the list is only women who applied for it, some names like Floersch are missing.

Also, these 50 will compete for 18 seats.



#79 Burai

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 14:59

Imagine being Carmen Jorda with her family connections and money, her time affiliated with Renault's F1 team and her time on the FIA's Women in Motorsport panel and thinking "I didn't get a fair crack of the whip at that motorsports lark".

 

She was genuinely embarrassing in GP3. Alice Powell finished nine places above her in 2012 in spite of having no budget. Dean Stoneman took her car at the last two meetings of 2014 and won two races in it, whilst she couldn't finish any higher than 17th in the preceding seven.

 

I'm amazed she had the shame to even fill in the application form.



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#80 phrank

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 16:18

Imagine being Carmen Jorda with her family connections and money, her time affiliated with Renault's F1 team and her time on the FIA's Women in Motorsport panel and thinking "I didn't get a fair crack of the whip at that motorsports lark".

 

She was genuinely embarrassing in GP3. Alice Powell finished nine places above her in 2012 in spite of having no budget. Dean Stoneman took her car at the last two meetings of 2014 and won two races in it, whilst she couldn't finish any higher than 17th in the preceding seven.

 

I'm amazed she had the shame to even fill in the application form.

I don't understand this fixation on Jorda, she got a lot out of the talents she has. She publicly stated to be in favor of a women only series, so it would be strange she would not apply. Beside she gets to test the Formula E and the I-Pace racing car.



#81 Bloggsworth

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 16:23

I am very cynical about how the drives will be distributed - I expect #metoo involvement at some point...



#82 Kalmake

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 18:30

I don't understand this fixation on Jorda, she got a lot out of the talents she has. She publicly stated to be in favor of a women only series, so it would be strange she would not apply. Beside she gets to test the Formula E and the I-Pace racing car.

She has gotten a lot out her backers and of being a woman. Talent she got none: https://en.wikipedia..._Series_results



#83 HistoryFan

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 19:16

My ranking of this 55 drivers and therefore the 18 drivers I would like to see are:

 

1) Beitske Visser

2) Jamie Chadwick

3) Marta García

4) Alice Powell

5) Vicky Piria

6) Ayla Agren

7) Mira Erda

8) Michelle Halder

9) Chelsea Angelo

10) Bruna Tomaselli

11) Amna Al Qubaisi

12) Sabre Cook

13) Miki Koyama

14) Alexandra Marinescu

15) Angelique Germann

16) Vivien Keszthelyi

17) Carrie Schreiner

18) Marylin Niederhauser



#84 Vielleicht

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 21:56

Strong words from these two.

 

Screen-Shot-2018-11-28-at-21-55-27.png

Screen-Shot-2018-11-28-at-21-55-34.png



#85 Bleu

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 22:07

After all her comments, I would like to see Carmen Jorda in the series, finishing last.



#86 jonpollak

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 23:23

https://twitter.com/...7324886016?s=21

Check it out

#87 TomNokoe

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 23:27

Glad to see Visser :up:

#88 ClubmanGT

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 23:28

Just taking the money and buying 5,000 go karts for girls who want to try racing would pay more dividends in the long run. 

 

I'm glad these women who were already able to access motorsports can now access motorsports. 



#89 phrank

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:13

As I see it, this (temporary?) series can be a boost for girls to get an interest in racing. You can buy 5000 karts, but if there are none to drive them is a useless exercise. Only lacking to this series is indeed a way of supporting girls that are already in karting to help them develop their careers.

 

I feel Mann and Floersch are a bit over the top with their comments, nobody is stopping girls to follow they regular route in the racing ladder, as boys do



#90 Vielleicht

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 13:20

As I see it, this (temporary?) series can be a boost for girls to get an interest in racing. You can buy 5000 karts, but if there are none to drive them is a useless exercise. Only lacking to this series is indeed a way of supporting girls that are already in karting to help them develop their careers.

 

I feel Mann and Floersch are a bit over the top with their comments, nobody is stopping girls to follow they regular route in the racing ladder, as boys do

I think Mann and Floersch are voicing necessary criticism. There's good intent behind it, but I personally have doubts mainly about it being the best use of investment but also about what message it is sending out and how to control that.

 

It's intended to be a funded series (as you say hopefully temporary) in addition to other racing programs. That is easily true now, as those signing up have experience in other categories than this series - but will the same be true for the series duration? Will team owners be more reluctant to hire a female driver in, say F3 or F4, becasue they have their 'own series' elsewhere? Will that unintentionally carve out the segregated path that Mann and Floersch are wary of? Will such negative effects be noticed in time to stop them? It's playing with fire a little bit, IMHO.

 

At the end of the day, I'd much rather see a funded program within the existing ladder or incentives to teams to take on and develop young female drivers. If they're willing to fund a whole field of racing cars for 18 drivers in a brand new series and all the costs that come with that, why not help fund 18 (or more) drivers into seats in existing series? This series appears to be giving a large prize fund to the winner - great, but what about the rest of them? Why give that chance to one when you can give to multiple?

 

An example of an incentive to get teams to take on female drivers seems to be working for Jaime Chadwick and NIO FE - a test day rule of one car per team OR two if one entered driver is female has led them to include Chadwick on team training/building events and take on simulator work. The root idea is that the teams want to run two cars to gather more data, but can only do so with a female driver and so have incentive both to hire one and genuinely work with them for the mutual benefit. The result for Chadwick and NIO is a serious chance to get experience and a foot in the door of a top racing team - the kind that can lead to race seats if all goes well.

 

So for me 'W Series' is not the way I personally would go about this and I think Mann and Floersch have good grounds to say what they said. Perhaps all we can do is wait and see how this pans out...



#91 Burai

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 17:12

The real issue is that there's a glass ceiling at around F3 level and that women are trying and failing to find funding for the next step up. Alice Powell is a good example. Clearly very quick but unable to put a budget together for anything other than regional FRenault series. Her time in GP3 was way too brief for the talent she has but the money wasn't there to carry on.

 

The winner of W Series gets a very healthy budget to make that next step up. That's what a driver like Powell needs. Once you get drivers graduating to and performing well in F2 or Super Formula via W Series, it shows potential sponsors that they wouldn't just be wasting their money by funding a woman. And once you break down that barrier, you become less and less reliant on the "segregated series".



#92 Ben1445

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 18:20

The real issue is [...]

 

At risk of being particularly picky, that in an issue.... but it's one issue in this highly complex and multi-faceted situation as opposed to the singular problem that needs solving. 



#93 ClubmanGT

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 18:56

At risk of being particularly picky, that in an issue.... but it's one issue in this highly complex and multi-faceted situation as opposed to the singular problem that needs solving. 

 

Agreed. I can make the strong case for New Zealanders on the same basis. There's only been five female F1 drivers and five Kiwis that have competed in F1. What we need is a separate world series for New Zealanders only with financial support to help them step up.  :cat:



#94 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 19:17

There's only been five female F1 drivers and five Kiwis that have competed in F1.


Nine NZ drivers have started a World Championship F1 race, compared to two female drivers.

#95 Stephane

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 19:30

5 female drivers : https://en.wikipedia...ula_One_drivers



#96 opplock

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 19:44

Nine NZ drivers have started a World Championship F1 race, compared to two female drivers.

 

Where did he get 5 from? Tim beat me to it. The 9 Kiwis to start a WC qualifying GP are

 

Bruce McLaren, Tony Shelly, Chris Amon, Denny Hulme, Howden Ganley, Graham McRae, John Nicholson, Mike Thackwell, Brendon Hartley.     



#97 BRG

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 19:52

Agreed. I can make the strong case for New Zealanders on the same basis. There's only been five female F1 drivers and five Kiwis that have competed in F1. What we need is a separate world series for New Zealanders only with financial support to help them step up.  :cat:

But what about New Zealand women drivers?  WHo is looking out for them?  Oh, the humanity.



#98 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 20:17

5 female drivers : https://en.wikipedia...ula_One_drivers


Five female drivers have attempted to qualify for a Championship Grand Prix. Desiré Wilson and Divina Galica have competed in non-championship races, Wilson actually winning one of these. But, as I said earlier, only two women (Maria Teresa de Filippis and Lella Lombardi) have started a Championship GP.

#99 E.B.

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 06:04

Divina Galica is the only Brit, male or female, to ever achieve multiple podium finishes.

Then she went and did motorsport instead.

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#100 Burai

Burai
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  • 1,428 posts
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Posted 30 November 2018 - 09:37

Agreed. I can make the strong case for New Zealanders on the same basis. There's only been five female F1 drivers and five Kiwis that have competed in F1. What we need is a separate world series for New Zealanders only with financial support to help them step up.  :cat:

 

The thing is, nobody is stopping anyone from doing that. It's not too dissimilar to the programme Elf used to run where it would take the French Formule 3 champion and bankroll them through F3000 toward a Ligier F1 seat, or the scheme Marlboro ran to try to find and fund an Italian driver with the hope they'd one day end up in a Ferrari.