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W Series 2019


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#2201 ArcticRacing

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 08:36

Does it list 7th through 10th? Curious.

Thanks.

You can read the top ten on Megan Gilkes' Instagram : https://www.instagra.../p/B2KkmRbB0z7/



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#2202 RA2

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 08:42

If they used electric cars like a FE, will it be cheaper than using their current F3 car?



#2203 Rinehart

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 08:45

Autosport did their W Series top ten this week

1. Chadwick
2. Kimilainen
3. Visser
4. Powell
5. Wohlwend
6. Garcia

I think I agree with that about as much as I did with them putting Alonso at #1 in their WEC review.

Powell was #1 in my book, all things considered.

So you keep saying, but Chadwick beat her comfortably, fair and square, with equal machinery, so I'm not quite sure what your criteria would be. I also think Chadwick was driving for the championship from the 2nd round and had a lot of stress to deal with having it all to lose, as she admitted. I think her raw pace, when she's got less to think about, is a step above the others. 



#2204 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 11:16

If they used electric cars like a FE, will it be cheaper than using their current F3 car?

Good question. Interesting what the real figures would come to.

Now these FE cars always had team-developed motors, gears and inverters. Those are crazy expensive to get the very last Joule from the battery onto the road. A past year FE chassis with generic (say, overbuilt) drivetrain might now cost too much to run. 
I'd still let some real downforce be designed into the aero bits.
And as it stands, the cars can't really do 45 minutes all-out on street circuits. W Series runs 30 minutes on more open GP tracks, which might well work out to pretty hard racing, not tooooo much lift-and-coast.

A nice opportunity for a FE team/sponsor to bring more units of their FE ccar and make them stock for W Series as title sponsor.
Say, the Mercedes W Series. Renault might be most apt with their customer base. And they could get back into the FE game,  sortof, without competitive expectations. Promise a proper F1 test for the top performers who've not had that experience yet.

If someone wants it badly enough, an electric car to keep up with F3 cars (as FE does) is totally viable. And needs not be too costly. It's  just that FE is needlessly low downforce and high drag. Even low power.
Not hard to imagine shorter races/heats or battery swap pit stops to allow cars to draw more power and just go way faster.

Imagine Porsche's Taycan drivetrain. Just the rear motor, 1/2 of the battery size, plenty of power for a 900 kg car to race 25-30 minutes per stint. With race tires and aero, close to F2 pace. Formula Porsche?
It will only happen when legacy brands can afford to say farewell to ICE sales (able to produce enough BEVs to cover the capital losses).

In term of gender equality, I'd just love to see top level F3 cars. No ifs or buts.


Edited by ElectricBoogie, 10 September 2019 - 11:17.


#2205 statman

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 12:10

Miki Koyama is doing some Japanese F4 at the moment. Healthy field, 35 cars!

 

She was 8th, 13th, 13th and 14th



#2206 RA2

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 16:40

Good question. Interesting what the real figures would come to.

Now these FE cars always had team-developed motors, gears and inverters. Those are crazy expensive to get the very last Joule from the battery onto the road. A past year FE chassis with generic (say, overbuilt) drivetrain might now cost too much to run. 
I'd still let some real downforce be designed into the aero bits.
And as it stands, the cars can't really do 45 minutes all-out on street circuits. W Series runs 30 minutes on more open GP tracks, which might well work out to pretty hard racing, not tooooo much lift-and-coast.

A nice opportunity for a FE team/sponsor to bring more units of their FE ccar and make them stock for W Series as title sponsor.
Say, the Mercedes W Series. Renault might be most apt with their customer base. And they could get back into the FE game,  sortof, without competitive expectations. Promise a proper F1 test for the top performers who've not had that experience yet.

If someone wants it badly enough, an electric car to keep up with F3 cars (as FE does) is totally viable. And needs not be too costly. It's  just that FE is needlessly low downforce and high drag. Even low power.
Not hard to imagine shorter races/heats or battery swap pit stops to allow cars to draw more power and just go way faster.

Imagine Porsche's Taycan drivetrain. Just the rear motor, 1/2 of the battery size, plenty of power for a 900 kg car to race 25-30 minutes per stint. With race tires and aero, close to F2 pace. Formula Porsche?
It will only happen when legacy brands can afford to say farewell to ICE sales (able to produce enough BEVs to cover the capital losses).

In term of gender equality, I'd just love to see top level F3 cars. No ifs or buts.

 

 

Yeah and make the battery pack H shaped with a 200kw capacity



#2207 statman

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 10:39

over 60 drivers applied, here are the 14 who have been selected to part in the test starting on monday:
 
 
Abbie Eaton, UK
 
Abbie Munro, UK
 
Anna Inotsume, Japan
 
Ayla Agren, Norway
 
Belen Garcia, Spain
 
Bruna Tomaselli, Brazil
 
Cheslea Herbert, New Zealand
 
Courtney Crone, USA
 
Gabriela Jilkova, Czech Republic
 
Hannah Grisham, USA
 
Irina Sidorkova, Russia
 
Katherine Legge, UK
 
Michelle Gatting, Denmark
 
Nerea Marti, Spain
 
 
In identifying the 14 shortlisted drivers, W Series hosted an invitation-only SIM event at its Dunsfold technical centre in Surrey.  Drivers from 6 different countries not only logged free-practice and qualification test laps on a variety of European circuits but also took part in full-length races in order to demonstrate their skill and experience.


#2208 owenmahamilton

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:05

I thought that the W Series was for younger female drivers, isn't Katherine Legge a bit too old for this?



#2209 Imateria

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:07

I rather hope Legge is there to be a benchmark for the others, it feels a bit wrong for them to take an established professional race driver otherwise.



#2210 Imateria

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:07

I thought that the W Series was for younger female drivers, isn't Katherine Legge a bit too old for this?

There's no age restriction, Kimilainen is 30 afterall.



#2211 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:30

I thought Kathy Legge was against the series. I might be mixing her up with someone else. She always seemed quite decent in Champ Car but not a world beater. Would be a good benchmark.

Abbie Eaton is the Grand Tour’s “tame racing driver”.

#2212 CSF

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:34

Pippa Mann was the vocal objector. 



#2213 statman

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:41

here is some more info:

 

Abbie Eaton, UK
27 years old
* 2009: Production Touring Car Champion
* 2014: Mazda MX-5 Supercup Champion
* 2015: 5th in GT Cup UK - GTB
* 2016: 4th in British GT Championship GT4
* Currently in Super2 Touring Car Series in Australia
 
Abbie Munro, UK
17 years old
* Scottish Junior Rotax Kart Racing Driver and a multiple Scottish Karting Champion
* Will join British F4 Championship
 
Anna Inotsume, Japan
Difficult to find info, a lot of Japanese sites (of course :p )
* Currently in Asian Le Mans Series - LMP3
 
Ayla Agren, Norway
26 years old
* 2012: 4th in Skip Barber F2000 Summer Series
* 2013: 4th in F1600 Formula F Championship
* 2014: 1st in F1600 Formula F Championship
* 2015: 10th in USF2000 Championship
* 2016: 11th in USF2000 Championship
 
Belen Garcia, Spain
20 years old
* Formerly active in Spanish KZ2 Karting championship
* Currenlty in Spanish Formula 4 (first win in her second race)
 
Bruna Tomaselli, Brazil
21 years old
* 2013: 7th in Formula Junior Brazil
* 2015: 6th in Formula 4 South America
* 2016: 4th in Formula 4 South America
* 2018: 16th in USF2000 Championship
 
Chelsea Herbert, New Zealand
20 years old
* 2017: 4th in BNT NZ Touring Cars Class Two championship
* 2018: 3rd in BNT V8s Championship Series - Class 2
* 2019: 6th in BNT V8s Championship Series - Class 1
 
Courtney Crone, USA
18 years old
* Former motorcyle/buggy/dirt racer
* 2017: 3rd in Formula Car Challenge
* 2018: 1st in Formula Car Challenge - FormulaSPEED 2.0 class
 
Gabriela Jilkova, Czech Republic
24 years old
* Former Renault Clio Cup racer
* Currently in the 24H Championship
 
Hannah Grisham, USA
19 years old
* 2018: Finalist 2018 Mazda Road to 24
* Currenlty in Teen Mazda Challenge series (couple of wins)
 
Irina Sidorkova, Russia
16 years old
* 2017: 1st in Ice Circuit Racing Cup
* 2017: 2nd in TCR Russian Touring Car Championship Junior-National
* 2018: 1st in TCR Russian Touring Car Championship Junior-National
* Currently in Spanish Formula 4: (3 top 10s so far)
 
Katherine Legge, UK
Doesn't need an introduction
 
Michelle Gatting, Denmark
25 years old
* 2011: 3rd in Formula Ford Denmark Championship
* 2016: 8th in Danish Thundersport Championship
* 2017: 7th in Danish Thundersport Championship
* 2018: 3rd in OK Mobil 1 Danish Supertourisme Turbo
* Currently in European Le Mans Series - GTE (1 podium so far)
 
Nerea Marti, Spain
17 years old
* Currently in Spanish F4 (1 podium so far)

Edited by statman, 11 September 2019 - 11:46.


#2214 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:43

Pippa Mann was the vocal objector.


She’s been very vocal about it. I remember that. I just had this idea that Kathy wasn’t interested.

#2215 Rodaknee

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:53

Hope they've making a TV programme of the selection.  The public will know the drivers and how much work they've needed to do to get into the series.  It appears practically all of them are currently racing too.



#2216 ensign14

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:56

Bad luck if your first name begins with a letter in the second half of the alphabet.



#2217 Rodaknee

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:56

Pippa Mann was the vocal objector. 

 

She just plays at racing, dusting off her kit a couple of times a year for the last 10 seasons.



#2218 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:18

I still don't understand if W Series is trying to 'find an F1 driver'(which their behaviorur reflects), create a self-sustaining series for women to race in(segregation), or just generally get women into racing and prepare them for it.

 

But surely someone who's tested an F1 car, raced in Indycar, and has a career as a pro in tintops is....not at all who they are looking for?



#2219 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:26

She just plays at racing, dusting off her kit a couple of times a year for the last 10 seasons.

 

You don't play around at the Indy 500. Probs more likely she spends the remaining 11 months of the year fundraising so she can be there in May.



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#2220 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:35

Yeah and make the battery pack H shaped with a 200kw capacity

"kw", even kW, is not typically considered a unit of "capacity".
FE cars last season had a typical 200 kW power limit during races, at the battery.
To bring it back to topic, not all too different from F3 cars.


Edited by ElectricBoogie, 11 September 2019 - 13:35.


#2221 HistoryFan

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:51

most promissing on this list are Belen Garcia, Abbie Munro, Bruna Tomaselli and Irina Sidorkova.



#2222 Ben1445

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:53

I still don't understand if W Series is trying to 'find an F1 driver'(which their behaviorur reflects), create a self-sustaining series for women to race in(segregation), or just generally get women into racing and prepare them for it.

 

But surely someone who's tested an F1 car, raced in Indycar, and has a career as a pro in tintops is....not at all who they are looking for?

Spoiler alert: it is definitely the bolded one.

 

Honestly I am not entirely sure why people are still confused abut this. 



#2223 Muppetmad

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:59

She just plays at racing, dusting off her kit a couple of times a year for the last 10 seasons.

During the 2011 Indy 500, the water supply in Mann's car stopped working early on, meaning she spent the vast majority of the race without water. She still finished the race, before being taken to the medical centre for severe dehydration. That's not somebody who "plays at racing". She deserves more respect than you're giving her.



#2224 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:08

Spoiler alert: it is definitely the bolded one.

 

Honestly I am not entirely sure why people are still confused abut this. 

 

Because they talk in F1 terms? Because they pick people already having racing careers?



#2225 Ben1445

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:26

Because they talk in F1 terms? Because they pick people already having racing careers?

Almost every printed/broadcast news profile of a young up-and-coming racer in karting or junior ladders I've ever seen contains a variation of the sentence 'the ultimate aim is to be F1 champion one day'. It's an implicit goal for many of the drivers by virtue of F1 being the pinnacle. So I really don't think W Series is focussing on F1 any more than any other ladder series out there. Equally, why should it not? 

 

W Series states that their main goal is to help advance the careers of female drivers and to inspire more women to try out the sport. That's the answer to what their purpose is. 


Edited by Ben1445, 11 September 2019 - 15:26.


#2226 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:32

Eh the messaging has been a bit inconsistent. As has the actions. eg having former female F1 drivers speak to youth clubs at Brands rather than the tons of women racing drivers who gave careers a go since then. 

 

There's a few single seater series, non-female, I think would be better oriented to non-F1 futures. Hell I think FIA F3 should be out supporting WEC and TCR and Blancpain GT as well as F1 weekends. It should be like a job fair. 

 

I think the success of this series is shaky at best, making it an F1 development path would condemn it to the scrap yard.



#2227 Retrofly

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:32

Listen to Ben, he knows.



#2228 E1pix

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:53

Honestly I am not entirely sure why people are still confused abut this.

When some never post anything positive about a topic, it seems pretty clear they don't want that segment invading "their turf."

#2229 Ben1445

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:02

Eh the messaging has been a bit inconsistent. As has the actions. eg having former female F1 drivers speak to youth clubs at Brands rather than the tons of women racing drivers who gave careers a go since then. 
 
There's a few single seater series, non-female, I think would be better oriented to non-F1 futures. Hell I think FIA F3 should be out supporting WEC and TCR and Blancpain GT as well as F1 weekends. It should be like a job fair. 
 
I think the success of this series is shaky at best, making it an F1 development path would condemn it to the scrap yard.

I can certainly agree that the sport generally being overly F1 centric is not good. That's reflected in the fact that anyone who doesn't make it to F1 can be seen by too many as a second tier driver or even a failure despite, upon reaching the top levels of any given category, being masters of their required skillsets. Some drivers may be 'built' for F1, others for endurance, others for GT or touring. I feel that frustration as much as anyone. 

 

It's been argued in the thread before that W Series should support as many different race series and categories as it can to promote the drivers to a variety of racing bosses and audiences. I have to agree, and if W Series were to become, say, an exclusive part of the F1 circus (like F2 and F3 currently are) I think that would be a mistake. That would clearly signal that F1 is the end goal. But they have been supporting DTM, so in that light W Series is less F1 centric than FIA F2 and F3 are. 
 

The aim of the W Series is to help advance the careers of female drivers and to inspire more women to try out the sport. That to me is clear. The sport being very F1 centric in both its organisation and in media reporting is something of a wider issue, in my opinion. 


Edited by Ben1445, 11 September 2019 - 16:02.


#2230 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:07

When some never post anything positive about a topic, it seems pretty clear they don't want that segment invading "their turf."

 
Sorry, what or whose turf is that?

I'm here to discuss it. I'm sorry I'm not as positive about it as you are or you seem to think I should be. I'm trying to be objective. Unfortunately what amounts to objectivity in me leads me to conclusions that aren't good for W Series.
 
Even under the best of circumstances the series isn't perfect, but no series is. But the idea that it can't be criticised at all is....I hope you're getting paid for that work at least.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 11 September 2019 - 16:14.


#2231 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:13

I can certainly agree that the sport generally being overly F1 centric is not good. That's reflected in the fact that anyone who doesn't make it to F1 can be seen by too many as a second tier driver or even a failure despite, upon reaching the top levels of any given category, being masters of their required skillsets. Some drivers may be 'built' for F1, others for endurance, others for GT or touring. I feel that frustration as much as anyone. 
 
It's been argued in the thread before that W Series should support as many different race series and categories as it can to promote the drivers to a variety of racing bosses and audiences. I have to agree, and if W Series were to become, say, an exclusive part of the F1 circus (like F2 and F3 currently are) I think that would be a mistake. That would clearly signal that F1 is the end goal. But they have been supporting DTM, so in that light W Series is less F1 centric than FIA F2 and F3 are. 
 
The aim of the W Series is to help advance the careers of female drivers and to inspire more women to try out the sport. That to me is clear. The sport being very F1 centric in both its organisation and in media reporting is something of a wider issue, in my opinion.

 
Right, but this is from the opening of the NY Times article above, that was written by an F1 Journo.

The six-race W Series was conceived last year by Catherine Bond Muir, a British sports lawyer and corporate financier, to promote female drivers into Formula One.

And pretty much everything they do leads me to believe they're in that orbit too. They're on the DTM slot because they could get it, like FIA F3 used to be. It's probably a smart move because you're more likely to get picked up by a DTM manufacturer, as so many of the German/Euroseries/FIA F3 guys did.

#2232 Vielleicht

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:22

Eh the messaging has been a bit inconsistent. As has the actions. eg having former female F1 drivers speak to youth clubs at Brands rather than the tons of women racing drivers who gave careers a go since then.

I think this needs some background.

 

The drivers in question were Desire Wilson and Divina Galica. Both raced in the British (or Aurora) F1 championship and neither qualified to start any races for the Formula 1 World Championship.

 

Galica was an Olympic skier before her racing and then primarly did open wheel racing as a second career. 

 

Aside from the British F1 win, Desire Wilson was also known for her endurance racing endeavours at Le Mans, Daytona and Sebring as well as IndyCar appearances. She's a racer with diverse experience, not just a former female F1 driver.



#2233 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:27

I know who they are, but I think in that context they're presented as the Last Female F1 Drivers. Otherwise you'd have, dare I say it, Katherine Legge speaking to the girls. Because she's raced tons of stuff in the last 10-15 years and is a career you could aspire to. Single seaters, sportscars, DTM, even a few NASCAR starts.

And unfortunately it contributes to this ridciulous view that since Wilson/Galica there was nothing until the blessing that was W Series.

#2234 Ben1445

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:45

Right, but this is from the opening of the NY Times article above, that was written by an F1 Journo.

And pretty much everything they do leads me to believe they're in that orbit too. They're on the DTM slot because they could get it, like FIA F3 used to be. It's probably a smart move because you're more likely to get picked up by a DTM manufacturer, as so many of the German/Euroseries/FIA F3 guys did.

 
I think that is a journalist who does not check their facts thoroughly and/or is writing for an audience who only really know or care about F1, if at all. 
 
So how about this from the W Series website: 

"We may be in our inaugural year of racing, but we’ve already given 20 women the opportunity to race relevant cars on relevant tracks, giving them the relevant experience and qualifications to put them in contention for potential drives in the top tiers of motorsport." 
 
(emboldening added)

 
Or this from the CEO: 

“I think that will have a push-pull effect,” says Catherine Bond Muir, the series’ chief executive. “Hopefully we can push some of those drivers into higher series, but also it’ll have a pull effect in that hopefully we’ll be making stars of our drivers, they’ll be famous, we’ll be creating role models and thereby we will attract more young girls to pick karting and actually get them into the sport at grassroots." 
 
(emboldening added)

These are way more direct sources of information and it supports my statement that they are not aiming, explicitly, to get a female driver into F1. They are aiming to get women into the top levels of motorsport (which merely includes F1 by definition) and to inspire more women/girls to participate in the sport. 

 

If the complaint is still that things are still too F1 centric in all their various ways then I daresay that deserves its own thread for discussion over that phenomenon in motorsport as a whole, not as a criticism levelled, arguably unfairly, at the W Series alone. 



#2235 BRG

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:53

W Series states that their main goal is to help advance the careers of female drivers and to inspire more women to try out the sport. That's the answer to what their purpose is. 

That would be entirely fine if it were the case.  It is what the aim SHOULD be.

 

But I looked at the W Series website (a blaze of yellow and mauve that put my eyesight at risk - the things I do for this forum) and it doesn't say that. But it does rattle on at length about how there aren't any women in F! and how they are going to address that. 

 

Quote:  It is more than 40 years since a female driver last started a Formula 1 race and, unless a positive intervention is made, it could be 40 years or more before a woman will have the necessary experience and qualifications to take part in a Formula 1 race again. Something must change.

W Series will act as a catalyst for that change.

There is more about F1 but you can read that for yourself.  So there is some lack of clarity as is shown by the quotes that you have just posted.


Edited by BRG, 11 September 2019 - 16:54.


#2236 E1pix

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:53

Sorry, what or whose turf is that?I'm here to discuss it. I'm sorry I'm not as positive about it as you are or you seem to think I should be. I'm trying to be objective. Unfortunately what amounts to objectivity in me leads me to conclusions that aren't good for W Series. Even under the best of circumstances the series isn't perfect, but no series is. But the idea that it can't be criticised at all is....I hope you're getting paid for that work at least.

You confuse objectivity with negativity. One can be productive, the other -- in endless quantities -- not. While I realize some live to debate as sport, others choose to view things for the good in them.

Objectively, women are excited about this Series, and many are enthused about racing for the very first time. Why would you not support something that gives opportunities to broaden both the driver and fan base at a time that racing in general needs all the new growth it can get?

Hence my comment -- and you know exactly what it meant.

So far as my "needing to be paid" to support what I see as a huge growth potential for our sport, that speaks volumes.

#2237 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:04

But I think other series respond to what the market(drivers with money) tell them. Like F2 and F3 could be better, but their customer base is rich kids who want to do F1. They're not claiming to RETHINK RACING or any other PR stuff. They're pretty up front about what purpose they serve.

#2238 Ben1445

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:07

That would be entirely fine if it were the case.  It is what the aim SHOULD be.
 
But I looked at the W Series website (a blaze of yellow and mauve that put my eyesight at risk - the things I do for this forum) and it doesn't say that. But it does rattle on at length about how there aren't any women in F! and how they are going to address that. 
 
Quote:  It is more than 40 years since a female driver last started a Formula 1 race and, unless a positive intervention is made, it could be 40 years or more before a woman will have the necessary experience and qualifications to take part in a Formula 1 race again. Something must change.
W Series will act as a catalyst for that change.
There is more about F1 but you can read that for yourself.  So there is some lack of clarity as is shown by the quotes that you have just posted.

I think there is a difference between the verbatim stated aims of the series and their use of F1 as an example to demonstrate their point. 
 
I have shown that their actual stated aim is to get women into the top levels of motorsport and to inspire more women/girls to participate in the sport. That's it. That's the aim. 

 

Now, if you want to get women into the top levels of motorsport that will include F1. So its subsequent mention after that stated goal, being the pinnacle of racing and the most well known racing category, should not be a surprise. 



#2239 statman

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:08

Katherine Legge:

 

I was sceptical about W Series in the beginning but I’ve followed it throughout the 2019 season and I can honestly say that it has exceeded my expectations, so much so that I’m delighted to be taking part in the test event myself this weekend in Almeria.



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#2240 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:11

You confuse objectivity with negativity. One can be productive, the other -- in endless quantities -- not. While I realize some live to debate as sport, others choose to view things for the good in them.

Objectively, women are excited about this Series, and many are enthused about racing for the very first time. Why would you not support something that gives opportunities to broaden both the driver and fan base at a time that racing in general needs all the new growth it can get?

Hence my comment -- and you know exactly what it meant.

So far as my "needing to be paid" to support what I see as a huge growth potential for our sport, that speaks volumes.

 

No I honestly didn't know what you're talking about. W Series has nothing to do with my day or what I hope to accomplish and doesn't impinge upon whatever would be 'my turf' at all. 

 

I don't see grown in this series, or potential. I see a lot of potential harm though. It treats women as curios, rather than professionals. And I don't think the most ardent supporters realise they're contributing that or to what extent they're being fed PR BS by W Series. 

 

I completely understand why, most people have no idea how this business works. It's ****ing dark and corrupt and is barely a sport most of the time. So I roll my eyes at the sad stories of these women not getting a fair chance(dudes, no one is getting a fair chance in this gig) and how this is going to fix anything. 

 

If they don't get a female F1 driver or the series implodes in a few years we will have accomplished very little. There's got to be a more efficient way to get Alice Powell in a GTD car than plunking 20+ mil. 

 

If Catherine Bond Muir was just rich and a racing fan and wanted to sponsor female drivers, whether or not she had the idea to get them to F1, that's her perogative. But spare me the disinformation campaign. 

 

I'm not negative, I'm critical. They're different. But detail and nuance is beyond some people here.



#2241 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:13

Btw since this was originally about the new crop of testers and more specifically Legge: W Series is effectively a scholarship. By that metric there's no way in hell Legge should even be allowed to enter. She doesn't need it and she's potentially depriving someone who needs the break. Letting Visser run was already pushing it a bit, Legge is just piss-taking. 



#2242 E1pix

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:15

But I think other series respond to what the market(drivers with money) tell them. Like F2 and F3 could be better, but their customer base is rich kids who want to do F1. They're not claiming to RETHINK RACING or any other PR stuff. They're pretty up front about what purpose they serve.

They're providing free rides to drivers who'd otherwise not be racing.

They're also building a platform of fans that currently barely exists.

I'd call both of those a "rethink."

It almost sounds like you support drivers who only exist for being rich. Money needn't erase passion.

#2243 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:23

They're providing free rides to drivers who'd otherwise not be racing.

They're also building a platform of fans that currently barely exists.

I'd call both of those a "rethink."

It almost sounds like you support drivers who only exist for being rich. Money needn't erase passion.

 

Eh? I'm completely opposed to how money centric racing is. But that's just the game and will never change. But it's like that for all genders and all nationalities. It's a lottery draw more than anything. 

And that includes some of the W Series drives. No one gets into racing without money. No one goes anywhere without a lot of money. Some of these women already had hefty personal backing. One was already part of an F1 junior team. 

 

W Series is interesting, and possibly unique, in that it's the only series you get a paid ride in across the board(though I think everyone in Formula E is hired these days and the ridebuyers are out?) but it's not really a blow for feminism. The racing world is brutal for everyone. 



#2244 E1pix

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:24

No I honestly didn't know what you're talking about. W Series has nothing to do with my day or what I hope to accomplish and doesn't impinge upon whatever would be 'my turf' at all. 
 
I don't see grown in this series, or potential. I see a lot of potential harm though. It treats women as curios, rather than professionals. And I don't think the most ardent supporters realise they're contributing that or to what extent they're being fed PR BS by W Series. 
 
I completely understand why, most people have no idea how this business works. It's ****ing dark and corrupt and is barely a sport most of the time. So I roll my eyes at the sad stories of these women not getting a fair chance(dudes, no one is getting a fair chance in this gig) and how this is going to fix anything. 
 
If they don't get a female F1 driver or the series implodes in a few years we will have accomplished very little. There's got to be a more efficient way to get Alice Powell in a GTD car than plunking 20+ mil. 
 
If Catherine Bond Muir was just rich and a racing fan and wanted to sponsor female drivers, whether or not she had the idea to get them to F1, that's her perogative. But spare me the disinformation campaign. 
 
I'm not negative, I'm critical. They're different. But detail and nuance is beyond some people here.

No, you are negative -- and your history on these forums has proven it endlessly.

Your comment above about others not knowing the business of racing is arrogant, presumptive, and waaaay over the top. I'm about twenty years older than you. First you say I'm getting paid, then presume you know the business of racing more than others here.

Enjoy being "critical," there's no point replying to you further.

#2245 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:32

I'm sorry you're not interested in participating. 

 

I've been an equal opportunity offender and I think I do a decent job of explaining my position. Or at least attempting to. I stop short of sending unpleasant PMs, like some members do...

 

I do know the business of racing pretty well, I'd put good money on better than most people on this forum. But that's fundamentally the difference between ever having been in it vs never have. You just...know certain things. That's 100% true of any industry, it's not because I'm special. I remember 20 years ago the shock of a British journalist(non-sports) when I explained to him people pay their way in the junior ranks. And that was merely in the context of auditioning for a team. 



#2246 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 19:03

Well W Series has a mission but they also have a business, right?

 

I don't think there's an F1-capable driver among their candidates, and I think aiming for that would almost guarantees failure in image terms. The best 'look' for them would be if they found a Female F1 driver. I don't think they'll succeed but let's say they do, even if the series doesn't last you could write that off as a 'win'. But you'd have a dollars-per-driver return that even Red Bull might hesitate over. 

 

But simultaneously they have a business to run, which probably faces in the opposite direction. Finding gigs for women outside of F1(most of the career opportunities are outside F1, and if these women dont get drives the point of this is...?).

And is this a sustainable series? It should be relatively affordable? Not much racing, no testing, no big engineering teams, blah blah. It's setup like an arrive and drive or racing school series. So selling some TV rights and a series sponsor or two should raise enough money to keep it ticking over? Though that may be limited because novelty/news value is a big part of their financial value and that diminishes steeply with time. 

 

But how do they pay down the 20 mil? Eventually someone is going to want to at least get their investment back, nevermind a profit. A lot of series just sort of tick over, it's going to take a long long long time to carve out 20mil in profit out of what is effectively a regional F3 series. 

 

How the hell did they spend so much anyways? I know startup costs are big, especially if you're doing a series(though the series expenses are...?) but they've got a sunk cost of like a million per car for a half-season. A regional F3 car is like 100k, let's make the engine at the high end and call it 50k, and round everything up to 5mil worth of rolling stock. How did they spend another 15 million for 6 weekends?



#2247 ceesvdelst

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 21:41

I wonder what the real reasons for this are.

 

Do we think that Liberty are heavily involved?  Seems slightly coincidental that this happens not long after they take over?

or is it simply the right time for this kind of push?

 

I am not sure if it is good or bad, reading between the lines of a lot of female racing drivers, it is often unclear what really got them to the top, but there is certainly some talent out there.



#2248 noikeee

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 23:49

But I think other series respond to what the market(drivers with money) tell them. Like F2 and F3 could be better, but their customer base is rich kids who want to do F1. They're not claiming to RETHINK RACING or any other PR stuff. They're pretty up front about what purpose they serve.


I don't see why this is any more deceptive or cynical than F2.

F2 on paper: we look for the most talented junior drivers in the world and provide them with the greatest training regime possible for making them Formula 1 superstars!

F2 reality: we make a **** ton of money selling overpriced Dallara cars and the teams then make a **** ton of money auctioning the seats to rich kids. Who we "train" for Formula 1 by giving them about 15 laps at the track (practice+qualifying) before each race starts.

W Series on paper: we provide the unique mission of promoting female racers' careers to get into top series! We want to improve society and make a better world!

W Series reality: we invested in this gimmick concept that people are interested in, and we're trying to hype it and make it stick in whatever way possible, to make us a settled valuable brand that could be worth a fortune, and please god let this stick like Formula E and not sink like A1GP or Superformula.

At least this is how I see this from a distance, I've zero inside knowledge of the workings of motorsport... I'm just not sure the latter is any more cynical than the former... You make a good point though that it's hard to understand how is this all a sustainable sensible business, and what will happen once the novelty factor starts fading.

#2249 RA2

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 04:58

"kw", even kW, is not typically considered a unit of "capacity".
FE cars last season had a typical 200 kW power limit during races, at the battery.
To bring it back to topic, not all too different from F3 cars.



200kwh battery pack

#2250 Rob29

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 09:03

Bad luck if your first name begins with a letter in the second half of the alphabet.

Incredible what some people spot-llist is in alphabetical orderr of first names Abbie seems to be most popular :clap: