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W Series 2019


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#201 jonpollak

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 11:35

Just look at Laia Sanz who rode the Dakar and ended up in the top 10. Against 100 competitors. And Dakar is a lot more brutal than F1.


Or Jutta Kleinschmidt ... who won overall.
Jp

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#202 taran

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 11:38

Beitske Visser articulated it nicely in a Dutch talkshow:

 

For every 100 boys starting with karting, maybe 10 progress up the ladder and maybe 1 or 2 actually get a decent seat and out of those 1 or 2 with a decent seat, 1% maybe get's a shot at F1.

 

Now imagine that for every 100 boys starting with karting, maybe 1 girl starts with karting....

 

Technically I feel that racing is a specific category where women should be able to compete with man. Just look at Laia Sanz who rode the Dakar and ended up in the top 10. Against 100 competitors. And Dakar is a lot more brutal than F1.

 

However, in various sports where the physical boundaries do not seem to form a limit (darts, chess etc), women are still a level below men...

 

I have heard this before but this disregards the fact that a (successful) female driver would have no trouble getting sponsorship and a good drive in any series. Case in point is Danica Patrick. She was good but hardly outstanding. Yet until she showed no progress in NASCAR, she was a sponsorship darling.

 

If there was a female racer doing well, she would be in F1 in no time.

 

Visser had Red Bull sponsorship but was dropped because of lack of results. The problem IMO is not that there aren't many female racers but that the few that exist can't get good results (compared to team mates etc.), not just objectively. In Jorda's case, she was dropped and her replacement promptly won in her car.....

 

So assuming some of these female racers actually have talent, why isn't it showing? Are the cars too difficult, even at these junior feeder levels?



#203 Requiem84

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 12:39

I have heard this before but this disregards the fact that a (successful) female driver would have no trouble getting sponsorship and a good drive in any series. Case in point is Danica Patrick. She was good but hardly outstanding. Yet until she showed no progress in NASCAR, she was a sponsorship darling.

 

If there was a female racer doing well, she would be in F1 in no time.

 

Visser had Red Bull sponsorship but was dropped because of lack of results. The problem IMO is not that there aren't many female racers but that the few that exist can't get good results (compared to team mates etc.), not just objectively. In Jorda's case, she was dropped and her replacement promptly won in her car.....

 

So assuming some of these female racers actually have talent, why isn't it showing? Are the cars too difficult, even at these junior feeder levels?

 

The talent pool is simply smaller. There has been less natural selection at the early level because less women start driving karts.

 

Once they do drive karts reasonably or compete in any other category reasonably, the chances are higher they will make it through precisely for the reason you say: they are marketable. But the quality of the women who make it through simply isn't high enough.

 

Let's put it another way.

 

If we take 10000 girls and let them race on the track, slowly eliminating the slower ones until the best 3 drivers are left. Then we take 10 boys, let them race until the best 3 boys are left.

 

Who would win the boys vs girls next? I'd bet the girls, because natural selection works vastly better in a larger pool. So these 3 girls progress in the racing ladders. The 3 boys get fantastic sponsorship and keep on going because they look so handsome. In the end the 3 boys and the 3 girls end up in F1. The boys had good drives, like Danica, or good sponsorship deals like Visser, but still the girls would beat those boys because their inherent quality is better.

 

This means that there may be many undiscovered talented racing girls out there who are now just playing hockey, working in a shop, or being a pitgirl...



#204 PayasYouRace

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 13:15

I have heard this before but this disregards the fact that a (successful) female driver would have no trouble getting sponsorship and a good drive in any series. Case in point is Danica Patrick. She was good but hardly outstanding. Yet until she showed no progress in NASCAR, she was a sponsorship darling.

 

 

I think it's wrong to judge Danica on her Nascar career because many other Indycar drivers have tried their hand at Nascar and struggled too. Montoya and Hornish being great examples of Indycar champions who looked average at best in stock cars. Her Indycar career was better than many remember, consistently in the top 10 in the points. Not champion material but worthy of her place on the gird. If anything she's an example of what you say. She was successful and had no trouble getting sponsorship in Nascar.



#205 Beri

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 14:07

w-series-driver-selection-prog.jpg

Who can finish the list?

Top left to right:
Shirley van der Lof, Beistke Visser, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Middle left to right:
??, Stephane Kox, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Bottom left to right:
??, ??, ??, ??, Jamie Chadwick, ??, Alice Powell, ??

#206 maximilian

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 14:18

https://wseries.com/qualifiers/

 

You can do your own face match exercise here...   ;)



#207 Beri

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 14:19

Thats what I did, but I dont have all day ;)

#208 Muppetmad

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 14:25

Carmen Jorda isn't there  :up:

 

Edit: Looking back on the last page, it seems that I've missed some news here  :lol:


Edited by Muppetmad, 31 January 2019 - 14:26.


#209 7MGTEsup

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 15:04

 

This means that there may be many undiscovered talented racing girls out there who are now just playing hockey, working in a shop, or being a pitgirl...

 

Can't this part of the argument be used for men as well though? The greatest racing driver who ever lived may never have stepped into a racing car as he had no desire to do so and was completely unaware of his talent.



#210 PayasYouRace

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 15:38

Can't this part of the argument be used for men as well though? The greatest racing driver who ever lived may never have stepped into a racing car as he had no desire to do so and was completely unaware of his talent.

 

I think this is getting a bit philosophical. How can one be a racing driver if they've never been a racing driver?



#211 7MGTEsup

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 15:51

I think this is getting a bit philosophical. How can one be a racing driver if they've never been a racing driver?

 

I was just pointing out the fallacy of what he was saying about undiscovered talent, and that it's not gender specific.



#212 aportinga

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 16:01

 

Wow!

 

I guess when you can't make much of your Hollywood career you swap your lower unit and go racing!

 

zabka.jpg


Edited by aportinga, 31 January 2019 - 16:05.


#213 7MGTEsup

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 16:06

Wow!

 

I guess when you can't make much of your Hollywood career you swap your lower unit and go racing!

 

zabka.jpg

 

If you were born a man but now identified as a woman could you have entered?



#214 E1pix

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 16:25

This thread is not about a T Series, but does a great job at demonstrating:
-- why so few women are in racing
-- why so few advance in teams of men
-- why the W Series is so desperately needed

#215 7MGTEsup

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 16:56

This thread is not about a T Series, but does a great job at demonstrating:
-- why so few women are in racing
-- why so few advance in teams of men
-- why the W Series is so desperately needed

 

I'm not sure it demonstrates any of that.



#216 Requiem84

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 17:01

Can't this part of the argument be used for men as well though? The greatest racing driver who ever lived may never have stepped into a racing car as he had no desire to do so and was completely unaware of his talent.


It definitely applies to men as well.

But if you have 100 men in karting for 1 woman in karting, this principle applies 100 times as much to women :-).

#217 7MGTEsup

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 17:07

It definitely applies to men as well.

But if you have 100 men in karting for 1 woman in karting, this principle applies 100 times as much to women :-).

 

But are there less women doing karting because they are just not interested rather than there being some barrier stopping them? As far as I'm aware there is nothing stopping the parents of a young girl from buying a kart and going racing. I have an 8 year old daughter and she has zero interest in cars or racing, to quote her "cars are boring" even though my job involves some pretty exotic cars that she has been able to be a passenger in.


Edited by 7MGTEsup, 31 January 2019 - 17:10.


#218 Requiem84

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 17:56

But are there less women doing karting because they are just not interested rather than there being some barrier stopping them? As far as I'm aware there is nothing stopping the parents of a young girl from buying a kart and going racing. I have an 8 year old daughter and she has zero interest in cars or racing, to quote her "cars are boring" even though my job involves some pretty exotic cars that she has been able to be a passenger in.


Thank you for bringing this up: this is exactly what Formula W is for. When your 8 year old daughter will see a grid full of cool ladies being badass on the track, she or other girls might at some point grow an interest for cars and racing.

Especially if it concerns a fellow countrywomen it might trigger a lot in a country.

#219 E1pix

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 18:05

Ding, Ding, Ding! :-)

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#220 paulstevens56

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 18:08

The point here has to be this.

 

If a woman was good enough, fit enough, determined enough she would have got there already.  it has happened in several series in some ways. 

 

They receive extra publicity in most regards, are able to pick up more sponsorship, so in some ways they have huge advantages.  Who says Wolff, Legge et al would have got where they did if they were men, I doubt it somehow, being female gave them a huge leg up.

 

This series, for me, is fake, all it will do is similar to GT Academy, show that with the right training and focus anyone can drive race cars, that does nothing for women in motorsport. It is taking average drivers, who would never get anywhere in racing and giving them a platform to get somewhere, some might say fair enough, I say foul play. If they were good enough they would be there.

 

it might give one or two an opportunity, but plenty have had that already, and only a few have achieved.



#221 PayasYouRace

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 18:23

The point here has to be this.

 

If a woman was good enough, fit enough, determined enough she would have got there already.  it has happened in several series in some ways. 

 

They receive extra publicity in most regards, are able to pick up more sponsorship, so in some ways they have huge advantages.  Who says Wolff, Legge et al would have got where they did if they were men, I doubt it somehow, being female gave them a huge leg up.

 

This series, for me, is fake, all it will do is similar to GT Academy, show that with the right training and focus anyone can drive race cars, that does nothing for women in motorsport. It is taking average drivers, who would never get anywhere in racing and giving them a platform to get somewhere, some might say fair enough, I say foul play. If they were good enough they would be there.

 

it might give one or two an opportunity, but plenty have had that already, and only a few have achieved.

 

Isn't that the point? Nobody would be a racing driver without the right training and focus. This series is out to show that it's possible for anyone, not just the boys. It's about making motorsport more accessible to everyone by showing that girls can do it to.



#222 GrzegorzChyla

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 20:24

w-series-driver-selection-prog.jpg

Who can finish the list?

Top left to right:
Shirley van der Lof, Beistke Visser, ??, ??, Natalia Kowalska, ??, ??

Middle left to right:
??, Stephane Kox, Miko Koyama, ??, Gosia Rdest, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Bottom left to right:
??, ??, ??, ??, Jamie Chadwick, ??, Alice Powell, ??

I am not 100% sure of Kowalska, but I don't see a better match.

Anyway - 2 out of 2 Poles are through :-)


Edited by GrzegorzChyla, 31 January 2019 - 21:10.


#223 aportinga

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 21:22

If you were born a man but now identified as a woman could you have entered?

 

Not really concerned - I was just making a joke about how she/he/she/he looks like him.



#224 paulstevens56

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 23:04

I think the point being that any PERSON should be able to compete. There is no need for a female only series surely?  Other than to push certain women into an unfair situation where they will probably fail eventually.

 

I really don't think women are at any disadvantage in terms of their ability, I have seen it so many times, they are just as quick, ruthless, aggressive, talented as kids.

What happens is that they get to 16 or older and their lives change, guys can still remain obsessive about this, and some women would aswell, but having seen it in many forms of racing,the girls tend to suddenly find cars or bikes less important compared to their friends, boys, studies even. They get a car, can go out more, less reliant on parents.

 

I simply think guys are not like this. They dream more of daft goals!! Women are more realistic perhaps and their goals change at this time.



#225 Requiem84

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 06:51

We have a World Cup of women in basically every sport - bar racing. Football, Volleyball, Athletics. You name it.

The goal of the W-series can also be to get a separate women’s cup. And perhaps perhaps the very best of that cup can compete with men at some point.

#226 Beri

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 07:09

There are combined sports as well. But there is no sport on earth that genderfies like Formula Racing is doing right now. Setting up a gender exclusive racing series on such a high level. No other sport on earth does this. You have female football teams, but no mixed football teams. You have mixed teams with a sport like korfball. But then there exist no gender exclusive team in that sport. But with the W Series you have all other racing series welcoming women if they can/want to race there, but the W series is an exclusive club. It's a tad racist come to think of it. And yes, I contemplated 10 times on using the R word in this. But there is no better fitting word for it.

#227 Beri

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 07:10

I am not 100% sure of Kowalska, but I don't see a better match.
Anyway - 2 out of 2 Poles are through :-)


Good man!

#228 NewMrMe

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 07:14

w-series-driver-selection-prog.jpg

Who can finish the list?

Top left to right:
Shirley van der Lof, Beistke Visser, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Middle left to right:
??, Stephane Kox, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Bottom left to right:
??, ??, ??, ??, Jamie Chadwick, ??, Alice Powell, ??

 

Isn't that Sarah Moore between Chadwick and Powell. She won the Ginetta Junior championship in 2009. I thought she had a lot of potential, her racecraft seemed very good.



#229 Stephane

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 07:32

Last one on the top is Sarah Bovy



#230 Beri

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 07:46

w-series-driver-selection-prog.jpg

Top left to right:
Shirley van der Lof, Beistke Visser, ??, ??, Natalia Kowalska, ??, Sarah Bovy

Middle left to right:
??, Stephane Kox, Miko Koyama, ??, Gosia Rdest, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Bottom left to right:
??, ??, ??, ??, Jamie Chadwick, Sarah Moore, Alice Powell, ??

 

 

We are getting there



#231 E1pix

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 08:38

Middle left to right:
Natalie Decker, Stephane Kox, Miko Koyama, ??, Gosia Rdest, ??, Sabré Cook, Megan Gilkes, ??, (row intersect after)

#232 Beri

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 09:29

Update then:

w-series-driver-selection-prog.jpg

Top left to right:
Shirley van der Lof, Beistke Visser, ??, ??, Natalia Kowalska, ??, Sarah Bovy

Middle left to right:
Natalie Decker, Stephane Kox, Miko Koyama, ??, Gosia Rdest, ??, Sabré Cook, Megan Gilkes, ??, ??, ??, ??, ??

Bottom left to right:
??, ??, ??, ??, Jamie Chadwick, Sarah Moore, Alice Powell, ??

#233 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 10:04

w-series-driver-selection-prog.jpg

Top left to right:
Shirley van der Lof, Beistke Visser, Vicky Piria, Francesca Linossi, Natalia Kowalska, Naomi Schiff, Sarah Bovy

Middle left to right:
Natalie Decker, Stephane Kox, Miko Koyama, Milou Mets, Gosia Rdest, Emma Kimilainen, Sabré Cook, Megan Gilkes, Grace Gui, Alexandra Whitley, Vivien Keszthelyi, Esmee Hawkey, Jessica Hawkins

Bottom left to right:
Marta Garcia, Fabienne Wohlwend, Tasmin Pepper, Caitlin Wood, Jamie Chadwick, Sarah Moore, Alice Powell, Shea Holbrook

Any mistakes you spot?

#234 Beri

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 10:12

Awesome work. I cant name any mistakes of the top of my head.
But Im happy to be able to put faces to the names of the drivers. PR pictures on their own websites, Instagram or Twitter are not representing how many of them look in real life in a spontaneous picture like this one.

#235 sgtkate

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 10:15

The talent pool is simply smaller. There has been less natural selection at the early level because less women start driving karts.

 

Once they do drive karts reasonably or compete in any other category reasonably, the chances are higher they will make it through precisely for the reason you say: they are marketable. But the quality of the women who make it through simply isn't high enough.

 

Let's put it another way.

 

If we take 10000 girls and let them race on the track, slowly eliminating the slower ones until the best 3 drivers are left. Then we take 10 boys, let them race until the best 3 boys are left.

 

Who would win the boys vs girls next? I'd bet the girls, because natural selection works vastly better in a larger pool. So these 3 girls progress in the racing ladders. The 3 boys get fantastic sponsorship and keep on going because they look so handsome. In the end the 3 boys and the 3 girls end up in F1. The boys had good drives, like Danica, or good sponsorship deals like Visser, but still the girls would beat those boys because their inherent quality is better.

 

This means that there may be many undiscovered talented racing girls out there who are now just playing hockey, working in a shop, or being a pitgirl...

This is honestly one of the best explanation of why we have gender imbalance I've ever read. Well put.



#236 taran

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 10:32

I find it sad that women who were pretty useless behind the wheel are driving the narrative about female drivers while the good ones are practically unheard.

 

People like Carmen Jorda and even Susie Stoddard/Wolff are waving the female flag and claiming it is so hard for women (because they couldn’t make it while in reality they lacked the talent IMO) while women who were successful like Danica Patrick and Michele Mouton are hardly heard at all in the media.



#237 Requiem84

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 10:37

I find it sad that women who were pretty useless behind the wheel are driving the narrative about female drivers while the good ones are practically unheard.

People like Carmen Jorda and even Susie Stoddard/Wolff are waving the female flag and claiming it is so hard for women (because they couldn’t make it while in reality they lacked the talent IMO) while women who were successful like Danica Patrick and Michele Mouton are hardly heard at all in the media.


Fully agreed.

The positive discrimination (e.g., women racing drivers get more chances because they are ‘marketable’) is actually doing the women racers a disservice.

It leads to certain women in the spotlight for the wrong reasons (Jorda notably). The irony is that it kind of ridicules the woman racing driver concept.

Rather, women should progress because of their skills more so. It adds credibility.

I hope Formula W is a stepping stone for this concept.

#238 phrank

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 10:42

This is honestly one of the best explanation of why we have gender imbalance I've ever read. Well put.

Much more girls are doing horse riding than boys at a younger age, yet when you look at professional horse riding at most its 50/50 male/female riders. You would think since the talent pool of girls is much bigger, the sport should be dominated by girls?



#239 Beri

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 10:48

I find it sad that women who were pretty useless behind the wheel are driving the narrative about female drivers while the good ones are practically unheard.
 
People like Carmen Jorda and even Susie Stoddard/Wolff are waving the female flag and claiming it is so hard for women (because they couldn’t make it while in reality they lacked the talent IMO) while women who were successful like Danica Patrick and Michele Mouton are hardly heard at all in the media.


Agreed on the part of driving the narrative. But I have to put a side note. Michele Mouton was well accepted in her day tho. Audi really did a good job setting equal standards for her. She fought fiercely with Rohrl during that epic '82 campaign and had every right to win the championship as much as Rohrl did.
Patrick on the other hand, I find that a different story. I know she is a fan favorite. But her results are not that great. Her NASCAR career I wont even mention. One lucky win over 13 years of racing Indy doesnt really say "she is good". Certainly considering she has spend most of her time at a top team who won 2 championships during the time she was there. She won, yes. But I wont name her a succesful driver tho.

Edited by Beri, 01 February 2019 - 10:48.


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#240 phrank

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 10:50

Did Patrick not enjoy a weight advantage in her successful period in Indycar?



#241 Beri

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 11:01

Dont know

#242 Kalmake

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 11:14

Did Patrick not enjoy a weight advantage in her successful period in Indycar?

Yes.

 

They started using driver ballast in 2008, but with 50lbs maximum ballast it still left the lightest drivers with an advantage. https://www.chicagot...0235-story.html

 

NASCAR has/had the same dumb thing of maximum amount of ballast.



#243 7MGTEsup

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 11:21

We have a World Cup of women in basically every sport - bar racing. Football, Volleyball, Athletics. You name it.

The goal of the W-series can also be to get a separate women’s cup. And perhaps perhaps the very best of that cup can compete with men at some point.

 

The reason men and women are split in other sports is because like it or not men are stronger than women so women would not be able to compete like for like. Driving a racing car is different, all out physical strength doesn't matter so as far as I can see the playing field is pretty much level women v men.



#244 sgtkate

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:23

Yes.

 

They started using driver ballast in 2008, but with 50lbs maximum ballast it still left the lightest drivers with an advantage. https://www.chicagot...0235-story.html

 

NASCAR has/had the same dumb thing of maximum amount of ballast.

This is same argument my work colleagues use whenever I beat them karting (which is pretty much everytime we go)...It couldn't *possibly* be that I'm better than them, could it? :D


Edited by sgtkate, 01 February 2019 - 12:23.


#245 Sterzo

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:51

This is same argument my work colleagues use whenever I beat them karting (which is pretty much everytime we go)...It couldn't *possibly* be that I'm better than them, could it? :D

But of course they'd happily make special arrangements for you if you wanted to play rugby on equal terms.

 

Of course lighter people have a weight advantage. So what? Every single sport favours certain physical characterisitcs. It's really unfair: I'd be an Olympic Gold high jumper, except I can't jump, or a champion jockey but I'm 6 feet tall, or heavyweight boxing champ but I'm light and skinny (and a coward). Those old comments about Patrick's weight from (I think) one of her Indycar rivals were amongst the most pathetic on record.



#246 paulstevens56

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:51

Comparing sports for a minute

 

Who would win in a sport that women pay a lot of?  Hockey?  Netball?  men would because they are just fitter, more powerful, taller, stronger.

 

The reason why this series is wrong, is that there is no strength issue in Motorsport, as there is not in equestrianism. being female physically is NO barrier to competing in motorsport as on horseback.

 

I personally have no issue with a female only series in terms of spectacle or doing more for females in racing.

 

but I do have an issue with women saying it's too hard, for them. Garbage, most of them use their sexuality to gain sponsors, PR, marketing men can only dream of don;t they Danica?

 

The only thing you can compare it to is surnames.  Hill, Lauda, Schumacher etc.  I would think if my surname was Button or something I might stand a far better chance of getting a drive. not all of them make it and I think that drive to not be their father plays a large part, but it certainly helps.



#247 Sterzo

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 13:03


I personally have no issue with a female only series in terms of spectacle or doing more for females in racing.

 

but I do have an issue with women saying it's too hard, for them. Garbage, most of them use their sexuality to gain sponsors, PR, marketing men can only dream of don;t they Danica?

 

Are they saying that? Maybe someone is, somewhere, but that's certainly not been the message put across by the series, nor by Wolff's "Dare to Be Different" campaign. Both operations are about getting more women interested.

 

I'm not convinced W Series is necessary, but equally I can't see that it does any harm.



#248 E1pix

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 16:41

The reason why this series is wrong, is that there is no strength issue in Motorsport, as there is not in equestrianism. being female physically is NO barrier to competing in motorsport as on horseback.
 
I personally have no issue with a female only series in terms of spectacle or doing more for females in racing.
 
but I do have an issue with women saying it's too hard, for them. Garbage, most of them use their sexuality to gain sponsors, PR, marketing men can only dream of don;t they Danica?

I'm unsure why you'd think racing is not physical, even karting is *tremendously* physical. The W Series focuses partly on training for this very reason, they don't want results partly determined by drivers tiring out during a full race distance.

So far as using sexuality to gain sponsors, etc., the "majority" certainly do not do this. Simona, Katherine, Ana, Pippa, Lella, Michele, Desiree, Lyn, and most I can conjure did none of that. Danica did, of course, and that did her nor other females in racing any favors at all.

#249 RA2

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 03:22

Danica Patrick became useful in the oval, i am quiet sure other women would have been successful in IRL too

#250 messy

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 09:21

I'm in the camp who thinks actually, Motorsport should have made a lot more of Danica Patrick's successes. Sure, maybe she did have a weight advantage etc etc but she almost won the Indy 500 as a rookie (should have; were it not for a mistaken radio call to save fuel when she had plenty to get to the end), she did win an Indycar race, she finished top five in the standings, that success should have been jumped on to inspire young female drivers, to show what was possible - but it didn't really happen. In the latter years it was much more about people complying about preferential treatement (ok, so what about the likes of Marco Andretti and Austin Dillon, then?! Bloody Paul Menard?), her love/hate thing with the fans and ultimately becoming a bit of a laughing stock with her lack of success in NASCAR.

The Patrick consensus on retiring seemed to be quite negative. For me they should have done everything to make her superwoman in the eyes of young kids growing up. I'm not saying she totally warranted it, but I see it as a missed opportunity kinda.