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#301 sgtkate

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 15:17

Open wheel motor racing is no place for women to compete against men on equal terms professionally. 

 

They are physically not capable to do so.

Last time I checked, IndyCar was open-wheel was it not? So how do you explain Danica Patrick competing on quite equal terms with all those big, strong, amazing men?

 

Honestly dude put your testosterone back in it's box. Women can compete just fine and the world will keep on turning...



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#302 sgtkate

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 15:19

The reason why there are so few of them is they are no good against men

 

What incentive is there to pursue some thing that does not lead to fame and glory?

I think it's time to give up with this discussion. Why do you post on forums if it doesn't bring you fame and glory? You are either on a trolling mission (if so you have succeeded in getting a few of us to bite :) ) or we are just so far apart in world view that any discussion is going nowhere...

 

I'm really not even sure what your post means? Are you saying women only do something for fame? Or are you saying that noone should do something in case they don't win? Or something else entirely?  :drunk:


Edited by sgtkate, 04 February 2019 - 15:20.


#303 Requiem84

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 15:36

Requiem84, this is just to note that I have edited my post since you commented.

 

The fact that your circle of female F1 followers being enthusiastic about W really is not surprising. You have a rather feminist outlook (as in you view women as poor, down-trodden victims who require preferential treatment in the name of equality), so it not surprising that you have friends that also hold feminist views. 

 

This is not my view :)

 

First of all, I think that women right now get a preferential treatment in racing. Even with mediocre performances they get more chances to progress because they hold a certain market value. I think this is detrimental in general for women in racing. Some of the girls we see seem to be a little bit out of their depth because they got somewhere which is a little bit out of there league. This creates a negative impression regarding females in racing (bar some exceptions). 

 

My point is that the W-series is a good tool to create awareness among young girls to start karting. If this works, the natural evolution of girls in racing will improve. More girls start racing. Natural selection will select the best. In the end we have stronger female drivers. So, you are completely wrong about my beliefs. I would like less preferential treatment. I would like to see more interest in racing with girls. 

 

I am not sure whether women can or can't compete on equal terms with men. I feel that 'science' isn't given conclusive evidence that they can compete with us men on equal terms or not. Physical strength, coordination, reaction time. So, I simply don't know the truth. But I feel that racing has been a men's world from the very start. Racing started to get bigger in the 50's when the relationship between men and women were very different than they are now. Could this historically lead to a world with a male bias? I think so. Could the result be that girls are less interested because of the male bias? I think so. 

 

To create more awareness among girls that they can choose racing as a sport, I feel the W-series is fantastic. Even if my carefully formulated positions turn out to be wrong and you turn out to be right, I think it is a great experiment to see what the W-series brings. 

 

Am I sure it will work? No, not at all. When someone like you is so sure about why everything about the W-series is wrong, it reminds me of many instances in our history when very certain people turned out to be very wrong. 



#304 RA2

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 15:47

Last time I checked, IndyCar was open-wheel was it not? So how do you explain Danica Patrick competing on quite equal terms with all those big, strong, amazing men?

 

Honestly dude put your testosterone back in it's box. Women can compete just fine and the world will keep on turning...

 

 

Hats off to Danica

 

It is clear that you dont want to look at this objectively rather taking a politically correct stance

 

Look at what is needed for open wheel success in the FIA ladder series and the see if they are suitable.  



#305 RA2

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 15:50

I think it's time to give up with this discussion. Why do you post on forums if it doesn't bring you fame and glory? You are either on a trolling mission (if so you have succeeded in getting a few of us to bite :) ) or we are just so far apart in world view that any discussion is going nowhere...

 

I'm really not even sure what your post means? Are you saying women only do something for fame? Or are you saying that noone should do something in case they don't win? Or something else entirely?  :drunk:

 

 

Is open wheel FIA ladder series a amateur category or a professional one?


Edited by RA2, 04 February 2019 - 15:51.


#306 sgtkate

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 16:06

Hats off to Danica

 

It is clear that you dont want to look at this objectively rather taking a politically correct stance

 

Look at what is needed for open wheel success in the FIA ladder series and the see if they are suitable.  

I am looking at it objectively. I fully accept that women have different assets compared to men, that is obvious. However, for a racing driver I do not believe that the differences between men and women play a major part in why women are not more successful. There are enough women who compete regularly towards the top of the sport to demonstrate that. Let's show the argument with figures:

 

You could easily argue that there are only 40 or so top open-wheel seats available (F1 and Indy). So everyone who wants to race open-wheel is fighting for those same 40 seats.

Let's also assume that everyone who starts karting wants to go on to get one of those seats (it's a leap but hey ho...)

Looking at go-karting championships there was only 1 female who was seeded (I can't get the entire entrants list, so this will have to do) out of over 200 drivers

So already we have a ratio of 200:1 in favour of the men at the most junior levels

 

Surely it makes sense that the smaller the pool of drivers you start with the less likely anyone from that pool is to make it to the top. Of course there may be other factors, but they are purely subjective. My perspective is that enough women have compteted at the top level to say that women can compete fairly with men and it's the lack of girls getting in karting that is the major problem. You say it's because women cannot physically compete with men. Neither of us can know the truth until we have a more balance talent pool to being with. If we can get just 10% of karting drivers to be girls and if within a generation we still have no females at a top level of open-wheel racing then I will come back here and concede the argument to you, publiccally and with payment of beer!


Edited by sgtkate, 04 February 2019 - 16:09.


#307 sgtkate

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 16:08

Is open wheel FIA ladder series a amateur category or a professional one?

A bit of both really. Some of the drivers are professional and some are hobbyists. Not sure where you are going with this though?



#308 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 16:37

Hats off to Danica

 

It is clear that you dont want to look at this objectively rather taking a politically correct stance

 

Look at what is needed for open wheel success in the FIA ladder series and the see if they are suitable.  

 

It's mainly a truckload of money, and women are definitely capable of having money.

 

Looking at it objectively, women have been competing with men in open-wheel racing pretty much since racing started. Some of them have even done rather well. But it's the lack of numbers that has meant a lack of ultimate success.



#309 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 16:41

This is not my view :)

 

First of all, I think that women right now get a preferential treatment in racing. Even with mediocre performances they get more chances to progress because they hold a certain market value. I think this is detrimental in general for women in racing. Some of the girls we see seem to be a little bit out of their depth because they got somewhere which is a little bit out of there league. This creates a negative impression regarding females in racing (bar some exceptions). 

 

My point is that the W-series is a good tool to create awareness among young girls to start karting. If this works, the natural evolution of girls in racing will improve. More girls start racing. Natural selection will select the best. In the end we have stronger female drivers. So, you are completely wrong about my beliefs. I would like less preferential treatment. I would like to see more interest in racing with girls. 

 

I am not sure whether women can or can't compete on equal terms with men. I feel that 'science' isn't given conclusive evidence that they can compete with us men on equal terms or not. Physical strength, coordination, reaction time. So, I simply don't know the truth. But I feel that racing has been a men's world from the very start. Racing started to get bigger in the 50's when the relationship between men and women were very different than they are now. Could this historically lead to a world with a male bias? I think so. Could the result be that girls are less interested because of the male bias? I think so. 

 

To create more awareness among girls that they can choose racing as a sport, I feel the W-series is fantastic. Even if my carefully formulated positions turn out to be wrong and you turn out to be right, I think it is a great experiment to see what the W-series brings. 

 

Am I sure it will work? No, not at all. When someone like you is so sure about why everything about the W-series is wrong, it reminds me of many instances in our history when very certain people turned out to be very wrong. 

Except by supporting W, this is exactly what you are doing. Series like W just promote special treatment for women and girls, and the belief that they cannot do something without a helping hand giving them more than their male peers receive in order to achieve the same. 

 

You are projecting what you want to believe is happening, and what you want to believe they will achieve onto W, when W is not in a position to offer these things. You did the same with 7MGTEsup's daughter, claiming she would supposedly gain an overnight interest in cars and racing because she saw women involved. W is unlikely to have any large impact outside of itself, it is unlikely to get anyone into karting, because that is not what it's intended for. 

 

Awareness among young girls? F1 in Schools and Dare To Be Different are doing that. They are targeting the girls at the age at which they can actually make the life choices that will allow them to seek a life in motorsport, whether as a driver or not. Natural evolution has to start at the bottom/beginning, get more girls interested in racing or engineering at the education level and then an uptake may occur as they progress in life. I say may, because it is not guaranteed, something which is often ignored by the idealists. Change HAS TO happen to satisfy their ideological need to be placated, even if the change they are pushing for has a detrimental effect.

 

W has just attracted those already interested in and involved in motorsport and handed them a gift in the form of a free racing seat. W is providing extra privilege onto these women, providing them with advantages and opportunities above and beyond their male peers, on the basis of them being branded as victims of sexism in motorsport when there is no evidence to support this.


Edited by JavierDeVivre, 04 February 2019 - 16:45.


#310 Requiem84

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 16:54

Except by supporting W, this is exactly what you are doing. Series like W just promote special treatment for women and girls, and the belief that they cannot do something without a helping hand giving them more than their male peers receive in order to achieve the same. 

 

You are projecting what you want to believe is happening, and what you want to believe they will achieve onto W, when W is not in a position to offer these things. You did the same with 7MGTEsup's daughter, claiming she would supposedly gain an overnight interest in cars and racing because she saw women involvedW is unlikely to have any large impact outside of itself, it is unlikely to get anyone into karting, because that is not what it's intended for. 

 

Awareness among young girls? F1 in Schools and Dare To Be Different are doing that. They are targeting the girls at the age at which they can actually make the life choices that will allow them to seek a life in motorsport, whether as a driver or not. Natural evolution has to start at the bottom/beginning, get more girls interested in racing or engineering at the education level and then an uptake may occur as they progress in life. I say may, because it is not guaranteed, something which is often ignored by the idealists. Change HAS TO happen to satisfy their ideological need to be placated, even if the change they are pushing for has a detrimental effect.

 

W has just attracted those already interested in and involved in motorsport and handed them a gift in the form of a free racing seat. W is providing extra privilege onto these women, providing them with advantages and opportunities above and beyond their male peers, on the basis of them being branded as victims of sexism in motorsport when there is no evidence to support this.

 

Why do you keep on saying things I did not say? Please quote me instead of rephrasing my words. 

 

When your 8 year old daughter will see a grid full of cool ladies being badass on the track, she or other girls might at some point grow an interest for cars and racing.

 

Regarding the other elements of your post I think we should agree to disagree. I simply think the W-series is a good thing. And if it isn't a good thing, I think it cannot be a bad thing either. You think the opposite. Fine. If you think it is a bad thing, you might best want to ignore any topics on the matter so that we can continue to talk about the W-series in general.

 

If this is not preferable, perhaps a specific topic should be opened about women in racing (I believe there actually already is a topic where this discussion fits in well). 



#311 7MGTEsup

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 16:54

If the aim is to get maximum exposure for this series to try to attract women to motorsport, where is it going to be broadcast? Outside of this forum I haven't seen or heard anything about it. If you're trying to attract a new audience they need to be getting the word out there on TV and other mediums in places that aren't motorsport related.



#312 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 16:58

If the aim is to get maximum exposure for this series to try to attract women to motorsport, where is it going to be broadcast? Outside of this forum I haven't seen or heard anything about it. If you're trying to attract a new audience they need to be getting the word out there on TV and other mediums in places that aren't motorsport related.

They also seem to be doing their best to be very secretive about their actions, not quite as secretive as that electric dakar though.

 

It's almost as if they don't want their programme to be open to scrutiny...



#313 RA2

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 17:14

Let us not mix the issues

 

I am not talking about how many start their karting career

 

I am not talking who has more money

 

I am only talking about what is needed to perform in a kart and open wheel.

a) need physical strength- can be overcome but at any given age a girl has to work much harder than a boy to attain the same level of fitness

b) car control skill - braking points determined by visual markers; can boys and girls use the same marker given there different motor skills

c) car control skill - steering; no difference

d) finding the limit - this means letting the car slide; can boys and girls correct a slide in the same time? no

e) race craft - spatial awareness; should be no difference

f) fear - sense of self preservation always higher in girls

 

These add to lap time and in the rushed journey from kart to open wheel these additions in lap time really contribute to which end of the grid you end up

 

Isolated cases of success cannot be taken as a benchmark and in these cases of success one has to question the repeat ability of the success

 

The speed of cars have also changed over the decades with shorter lap times the differences will only get magnified, so it has been done in the past or different category may not be useful in making a case if do girls need a separate open wheel series 

 

Given the above, now look at the weekend format; Some of the above can be ironed out with more practice and testing at the same venue.

1) Currently in a F4 / F3 there is hardly any testing 

2) Practice is 30 min which is also qualifying; which is like 10-15 laps

3) 3 races of 20 min

 

This additional time is just not available in a race weekend



#314 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 17:33

I am only talking about what is needed to perform in a kart and open wheel.
a) need physical strength- can be overcome but at any given age a girl has to work much harder than a boy to attain the same level of fitness
b) car control skill - braking points determined by visual markers; can boys and girls use the same marker given there different motor skills
c) car control skill - steering; no difference
d) finding the limit - this means letting the car slide; can boys and girls correct a slide in the same time? no
e) race craft - spatial awareness; should be no difference
f) fear - sense of self preservation always higher in girls
 


So let’s look at your list.

a) no issue because you only have to be strong enough to handle the car, not stronger than your opponent. History shows it hasn’t been a problem for women.
b) no issue
c) no issue
d) citation needed. I’d be willing to bet it isn’t actually an issue.
e) no issue
f) shouldn’t actually be an issue.

So in short, there’s no physical barrier to women competing with men in open wheel racing and as I’m tired of repeating, there’s a long list of examples of women who demonstrated it.

#315 messy

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 19:51

Let us not mix the issues
 
I am not talking about how many start their karting career
 
I am not talking who has more money
 
I am only talking about what is needed to perform in a kart and open wheel.
a) need physical strength- can be overcome but at any given age a girl has to work much harder than a boy to attain the same level of fitness
b) car control skill - braking points determined by visual markers; can boys and girls use the same marker given there different motor skills
c) car control skill - steering; no difference
d) finding the limit - this means letting the car slide; can boys and girls correct a slide in the same time? no
e) race craft - spatial awareness; should be no difference
f) fear - sense of self preservation always higher in girls
 
These add to lap time and in the rushed journey from kart to open wheel these additions in lap time really contribute to which end of the grid you end up
 
Isolated cases of success cannot be taken as a benchmark and in these cases of success one has to question the repeat ability of the success
 
The speed of cars have also changed over the decades with shorter lap times the differences will only get magnified, so it has been done in the past or different category may not be useful in making a case if do girls need a separate open wheel series 
 
Given the above, now look at the weekend format; Some of the above can be ironed out with more practice and testing at the same venue.
1) Currently in a F4 / F3 there is hardly any testing 
2) Practice is 30 min which is also qualifying; which is like 10-15 laps
3) 3 races of 20 min
 
This additional time is just not available in a race weekend


I think sometimes you just need to quit when you're behind, to be honest.

#316 jonpollak

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 21:55

As you may have noticed messy.
That guy trolls every thread we open.
Jp

#317 FLB

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 00:03

If the aim is to get maximum exposure for this series to try to attract women to motorsport, where is it going to be broadcast? Outside of this forum I haven't seen or heard anything about it. If you're trying to attract a new audience they need to be getting the word out there on TV and other mediums in places that aren't motorsport related.

TV deals/packages are sometimes made at the last minute, you know? The series starts in May!



#318 secessionman

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 01:21

TV deals/packages are sometimes made at the last minute, you know? The series starts in May!

 

I think they missed a trick by not televising the selection process, or at least some part of it.



#319 Requiem84

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 06:53

I think they missed a trick by not televising the selection process, or at least some part of it.


I’d not be surprised if we see some sort of youtube documentary about the selection process at some point.

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#320 taran

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:08

Whoa, let’s not dismiss posters because their views are controversial.

This entire thread/discussion is about a racing series exclusively for women.

This raises questions if women need this, if women can’t truly compete with men, if additional ‘women only’ series are needed and whatnot.

 

Many posters (Messy, Payasyourace, JonPollak etc.) feel that women are fine and can compete with men, based on a few female drivers who have done OK in their opinion.

Others like RA2 think they can’t because of physical differences.

 

Personally, I am not interested in a monologue in which a few posters slap each other on the back repeatedly. I visit a discussion forum to read and sometimes discuss what other fans say.

 

Dismissing or attacking a poster’s opinions because they don’t like what he has to say, it isn’t politically correct or it clashes with your views is what SJW’s do and it stinks. We need to hear all sides and their arguments so we can either refute them or (however grudgingly) accept that there is some validity.

 

Now, in this case we can easily see that there is indeed something off in the proportion of successful female racers in top flight single seat racing. Just as there aren’t as many successful Asian drivers or African drivers as you’d perhaps expect.

 

African drivers and female drivers have in common that there are very few of them. There are far more Asian drivers (mostly Japanese) and the few that make the jump to international racing often have less than stellar careers.

 

Is it a simple numbers game? Physical prowess? Lower standards in Asian racing? All of these?

 

I don’t have the answers but I can see that even the few successful female drivers have not been outstanding. If we look at Michele Mouton, she has “just” 4 victories and no WRC titles. Danica Patrick has a single win in Indycars and an abysmal record in NASCAR which puts her career pretty much on the level of Jeff Ward, Billy Boat, Alex Tagliani or Jacques Villeneuve Sr. All of whom were pretty forgettable Indycar drivers.

 

And the less said of Lella Lombardi, Divina Galica, Desire Wilson and Giovanni Amati’s F1 careers, the better.

 

So clearly, women aren’t doing as well and I don’t think you can just write it off as just a matter of not enough women competing to find a real talent.

 

Twenty years ago, people would have bet good money that a black or Asian dude would never be good at golf, the quintessential white, rich man’s game. Or that a good German driver would be in F1 since all the good drivers went into touring and endurance racing. Or that a talented black driver would be in F1. Yet it all happened because there usually is some freakish talent that breaks these preconceptions or barriers.

 

But it has never happened in motor racing. Of the few women sufficiently interested and dedicated to pursue a racing career, at least one such outlier should have been discovered by now.



#321 7MGTEsup

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:30

TV deals/packages are sometimes made at the last minute, you know? The series starts in May!

 

Why would you wait till the last minute to start promoting your series? Isn't it a bit late by then? Wouldn't you want to get people chomping at the bit as early as possible to build the hype and interest?



#322 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:38

 

And the less said of Lella Lombardi, Divina Galica, Desire Wilson and Giovanni Amati’s F1 careers, the better.

 

 

 

If we're going to exclude F1 race winners from the discussion, then no wonder you'll never find anything good.

 

 

But it has never happened in motor racing. Of the few women sufficiently interested and dedicated to pursue a racing career, at least one such outlier should have been discovered by now.

 

Yet it doesn't mean we should have, only that we could have. It's a subtle but important difference. Effectively we're playing a lottery on talent and skill because the numbers coming through are so low. You can go a lifetime without ever winning it, or win twice or more in a row. When not everyone is given a chance to show their worth, you can only test what is left. Finding one with not only the talent but also the backing to reach the top is going to be very unlikely.

 

So I think that is what W series is getting at. It's about identifying the talent, and providing the backing. It's not to provide an alternative for female drivers.



#323 sgtkate

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 10:21

As you may have noticed messy.
That guy trolls every thread we open.
Jp

Yes, apologies for taking the bait. It's something I feel very strongly about beyond racing so I'm unfortunately easy to 'trigger'...I'll stop now :)

 

If W Series results in a slightly higher take up in number of girls karting then it's a success in my opinion. I'd also like to see more made of the Girls on Track initiative too: https://www.fia.com/TheGirlsOnTrack I asked at my local track (a big karting chain so not a small cowboy outfit) and they hadn't heard of it. Says it all really. If you cannot get the big karting players involved then it's going to be a long and hard road.



#324 sgtkate

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 10:26

Whoa, let’s not dismiss posters because their views are controversial.

This entire thread/discussion is about a racing series exclusively for women.

This raises questions if women need this, if women can’t truly compete with men, if additional ‘women only’ series are needed and whatnot.

 

Many posters (Messy, Payasyourace, JonPollak etc.) feel that women are fine and can compete with men, based on a few female drivers who have done OK in their opinion.

Others like RA2 think they can’t because of physical differences.

 

Personally, I am not interested in a monologue in which a few posters slap each other on the back repeatedly. I visit a discussion forum to read and sometimes discuss what other fans say.

 

Dismissing or attacking a poster’s opinions because they don’t like what he has to say, it isn’t politically correct or it clashes with your views is what SJW’s do and it stinks. We need to hear all sides and their arguments so we can either refute them or (however grudgingly) accept that there is some validity.

 

Now, in this case we can easily see that there is indeed something off in the proportion of successful female racers in top flight single seat racing. Just as there aren’t as many successful Asian drivers or African drivers as you’d perhaps expect.

 

African drivers and female drivers have in common that there are very few of them. There are far more Asian drivers (mostly Japanese) and the few that make the jump to international racing often have less than stellar careers.

 

Is it a simple numbers game? Physical prowess? Lower standards in Asian racing? All of these?

 

I don’t have the answers but I can see that even the few successful female drivers have not been outstanding. If we look at Michele Mouton, she has “just” 4 victories and no WRC titles. Danica Patrick has a single win in Indycars and an abysmal record in NASCAR which puts her career pretty much on the level of Jeff Ward, Billy Boat, Alex Tagliani or Jacques Villeneuve Sr. All of whom were pretty forgettable Indycar drivers.

 

And the less said of Lella Lombardi, Divina Galica, Desire Wilson and Giovanni Amati’s F1 careers, the better.

 

So clearly, women aren’t doing as well and I don’t think you can just write it off as just a matter of not enough women competing to find a real talent.

 

Twenty years ago, people would have bet good money that a black or Asian dude would never be good at golf, the quintessential white, rich man’s game. Or that a good German driver would be in F1 since all the good drivers went into touring and endurance racing. Or that a talented black driver would be in F1. Yet it all happened because there usually is some freakish talent that breaks these preconceptions or barriers.

 

But it has never happened in motor racing. Of the few women sufficiently interested and dedicated to pursue a racing career, at least one such outlier should have been discovered by now.

 

This is a good balanced post. I don't agree with all your points though! I don't think there is a link between a lack of women and a lack of African or Asian drivers (outside of Japan). I think that is much more to do with history of car manufacturing. The majority of cars have been historically made in Europe/North America and Japan until very recently, therefore it is likely to follow that more people from those countries will 'buy-in' to cars more than from other countries. But this is starting to change already and perhaps over the next few years we will see a big shift. I hope so, and would equally encourage development of drivers from countries with less motor racing history. However, this isn't really about the W Series!

 

There does seem to be very little media coverage of this. I'd have expected the BBC to have jumped on this to be honest as they do rather like the 'underdog' card! If it wasn't for this forum I'd never have even known about it. Do they have any mainstream media deals to show the events?

 

P.S. Don't insult my avatar.


Edited by sgtkate, 05 February 2019 - 10:26.


#325 paulstevens56

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 12:04

I think the African?Asian driver thing deserves a thread on it's own really.

 

As it is similar but not exactly the same as the female thing.  More based on culture and lack of role models and circuits.

 

Millions are being spent in South East Asia in places like Indonesia, Malaysia and China to try and develop Asian drivers and series and it is getting there, especially on bikes.

 

But Africa, well I think personally they have more pressing issues to deal with quite frankly.



#326 taran

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 14:11

This is (partly) what’s wrong with female racers IMO: Susie Wolff says Tatiana Calderon is doing a fantastic job and hopes she keeps on progressing up the career ladder!!! Tatiana Calderon has spent the past 3 years in GP3 where she finished 21st, 18th and 16th.

 

Now, I understand why Susie would say this. She was a joke behind the wheel so wouldn’t know excellence if she saw it. But in any universe, a driver who spends multiple years in a feeder category and still “only” finishes 16th in the standings has no business moving up.

 

Instead of mollycoddling, perhaps a dose of Red Bull Kvyat edition is needed. Say what you want of Evil Marko and his henchmen but they provide the means and set clear targets. If drivers perform well, they continue and if they don’t, they don’t get participation trophies and understanding hugs. It’s harsh but effective.



#327 Stephane

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 14:16

Wasn't Visser a Red-Bull driver at one point ?



#328 Requiem84

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 14:18

This is (partly) what’s wrong with female racers IMO: Susie Wolff says Tatiana Calderon is doing a fantastic job and hopes she keeps on progressing up the career ladder!!! Tatiana Calderon has spent the past 3 years in GP3 where she finished 21st, 18th and 16th.

 

Now, I understand why Susie would say this. She was a joke behind the wheel so wouldn’t know excellence if she saw it. But in any universe, a driver who spends multiple years in a feeder category and still “only” finishes 16th in the standings has no business moving up.

 

Instead of mollycoddling, perhaps a dose of Red Bull Kvyat edition is needed. Say what you want of Evil Marko and his henchmen but they provide the means and set clear targets. If drivers perform well, they continue and if they don’t, they don’t get participation trophies and understanding hugs. It’s harsh but effective.

 

Yeah, one female driver with very little results now promoting another female driver with mediocre results... 

 

Not doing the female racing drivers cause any good sadly. And if Susie gets what she's asking for, Tatiana might be out of her depth in an F1 car, leaving an underwhelming impression.... 

 

All in all not smart to say.  



#329 Kalmake

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 14:31

Wolff means F2, which Calderon has been trying for 2019. Don't worry, she will never collect enough licence points to make F1.



#330 Requiem84

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 14:51

Wolff means F2, which Calderon has been trying for 2019. Don't worry, she will never collect enough licence points to make F1.

 

Well:

 

Asked if Calderon would make it to F1, Wolff - who retired from racing in 2015 and is now Venturi's Formula E team boss - said: "I would like to see that happen.

"F1 changed that you need points for a superlicence. This creates another stumbling block.

"When I was driving there wasn't the need to have points for the superlicence.

"So, obviously she has the challenge of getting enough points in order to qualify, but I would love to see her in the grid.

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"Sometimes in F1 it comes down to timing, when there's a seat free and the opportunity comes.

"She showed by driving the Sauber that she is very capable, so I watch and hope."



#331 7MGTEsup

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 17:06

Yeah, one female driver with very little results now promoting another female driver with mediocre results... 

 

Not doing the female racing drivers cause any good sadly. And if Susie gets what she's asking for, Tatiana might be out of her depth in an F1 car, leaving an underwhelming impression.... 

 

All in all not smart to say.  

 

Unfortunately she married into power so people will listen to her...



#332 Lights

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 18:52

Wolff: "F1 changed that you need points for a superlicence. This creates another stumbling block.

 

This says a lot.



#333 GrzegorzChyla

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 20:10

I think they missed a trick by not televising the selection process, or at least some part of it.

I heard there were very active TV crews with each selection group. So I think they have a material but now are waiting for right moment before season. I see a potential for a 'Reality document' series.



#334 jonpollak

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 21:43

Reality show?... oi vey.
I’ll say...Live TV or bullshit.

Jp

#335 ANF

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 21:52

I heard there were very active TV crews with each selection group. So I think they have a material but now are waiting for right moment before season. I see a potential for a 'Reality document' series.

Yeah. I wonder if the races will be live streamed (like DTM and Formula European Masters) or if they will try to keep the results secret until the reality show gets on the air.

Edited by ANF, 05 February 2019 - 21:53.


#336 secessionman

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 05:03

Susie Wolff : "F1 changed that you need points for a superlicence. This creates another stumbling block."

 

This says a lot.

 

Agreed, comments like this are very worrying.

 

It implies that without the requirement for super licence points she could have received preferential advancement which is now no longer possible.

 

Wolff : "When I was driving there wasn't the need to have points for the superlicence."

 

Again, Susie infers that superlicence points are a bad thing, for reasons that can surely only be that she doesn't want grid places decided on merit.

 

I'm all for equal opportunities but not equal places regardless of ability like Blair's female only shortlists. Before we know it we could end up with 10 women on the grid for the sole reason that any less would mean they were outnumbered by the men. Perish the thought.



#337 sgtkate

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 09:32

This says a lot.

 

Agreed. The need for a superlicense is one of the better recent changes stopping people who could be dangerous buying their way in. She is utterly wrong with this statement.



#338 Rinehart

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 09:49

This is not my view :)

 

First of all, I think that women right now get a preferential treatment in racing. Even with mediocre performances they get more chances to progress because they hold a certain market value. 

Honestly this logic is like saying the disabled who get support benefit payments get preferential treatment over the super rich who pay huge taxes. 

 

If a women is reasonably talented she could well attract sponsorship that a comparable man might not due to her marketability (in theory), but consider she may have had to persevere through years of greater resistance (also in theory) to have reached that point in her career... starting with "Daddy can you buy me a go-kart please and take me to races every weekend"... and then she will be stigmatised as a woman, who according to people like you only have the chance because they are a woman. Essentially carrying an anchor for the rest of their career. All the while the stopwatch is still ticking and who is going to get sponsorship/a drive unless they are modestly competitive? Carmen Jorda says hi. The fact that there are only about 5% women racers globally also disproves your theory. Meanwhile is there really much more commercial advantage in being a woman over a man than say being an American over being say Maltese in terms of sponsorship attraction? (No offence at all to any Maltese, obviously). I think your opinion, which is as valid as mine, amounts to subconscious jealousy. 



#339 Rinehart

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 09:59

 

I am not sure whether women can or can't compete on equal terms with men. I feel that 'science' isn't given conclusive evidence that they can compete with us men on equal terms or not. Physical strength, coordination, reaction time. So, I simply don't know the truth. But I feel that racing has been a men's world from the very start. 

Sorry to make 2 posts. On this point, this is rather like the views held less than 100 years ago that women would not be capable to run businesses, there were next to no women in boardrooms and it was, it appeared, a mans world. History has shown this was just a confirmation bias based on the accepted conventions of the day. Back then it was normal to think women's brains weren't as good as mens. Crazy how the world was not that long ago.  Fortunately the world changes. I am quite sure that beyond my lifetime women participating and competitive in motorsports will be normalised (assuming motorsport still exists) and the prevailing views of today will be considered mad... 



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#340 Requiem84

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:06

@Rinehart, try to read the whole topic instead of cherry picking a few quotes. Might give you an insight into the deeper background of these posts. 

 

If you had read the topic, you would actually see we agree for 99%. 



#341 Rinehart

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:11

 

W has just attracted those already interested in and involved in motorsport and handed them a gift in the form of a free racing seat. W is providing extra privilege onto these women, providing them with advantages and opportunities above and beyond their male peers, on the basis of them being branded as victims of sexism in motorsport when there is no evidence to support this.

You have got to be joking, your post itself disproves your theory. There have to be 100 posts here proving it. And that's before you actually work in motorsport and discover first hand the cultural bias ingrained within it. Assuming you don't, some of these brainfarts have been published, from the likes of Sterling Moss and Bernie Ecclestone to David Reynolds and Richard Petty...



#342 Rinehart

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:14

@Rinehart, try to read the whole topic instead of cherry picking a few quotes. Might give you an insight into the deeper background of these posts. 

 

If you had read the topic, you would actually see we agree for 99%. 

Err... I don't agree "women get preferential treatment" so I'm not sure how you think we are agreed on that. In my second post I was agreeing with you, expanding upon your point, thats why its a separate post. 



#343 Rinehart

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:17

I think they missed a trick by not televising the selection process, or at least some part of it.

I think it would have been an own goal and lost them credibility seeing as it involved driving a road going Fiesta in freezing temperatures with snow ON THE TRACK in order to establish who could drive a downforce single seater. I suspect the "process" was more of a charade, they'd have known who they wanted. 



#344 Rinehart

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:25

Yeah, one female driver with very little results now promoting another female driver with mediocre results... 

 

Not doing the female racing drivers cause any good sadly. 

I agree, everyone is too keen to promote the next half decent female driver, which is understandable given the fact that it is so rare, but they need to be patient because the impatience is damaging credibility. I am concerned that this impatience is going to damage a few potential careers, real talent being exploited for commercial gain where that talent would be better in the long run properly developing its talent.  



#345 paulstevens56

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 12:15

I do not think there is sexism in terms of drivers in motorsport. That is dependant purely on talent, and to a lesser extent on marketing and country.  If a woman was as good as Stroll came from Japan she would get picked out by Marko, drive the Red Bull ladder and be in an RB before you knew it. Sadly that has never happened, so there is apparently sexism?

 

IN terms of other things, for sure there is. What do you always see women doing in F1, PR, that's about it. 

 

But these days, ANY F1 team would bend over backwards to employ an engineer, GFD prog, harness technician if they were female and they would also likely get the job in favour of men with more relevant experience because HR in these firms are determined to improve their racial and gender footprint.

 

I have seen it happen.



#346 7MGTEsup

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 12:22

You have got to be joking, your post itself disproves your theory. There have to be 100 posts here proving it. And that's before you actually work in motorsport and discover first hand the cultural bias ingrained within it. Assuming you don't, some of these brainfarts have been published, from the likes of Sterling Moss and Bernie Ecclestone to David Reynolds and Richard Petty...

 

Can you point out where his post disproves his theory?

 

Also could you point me to the racing series that has been set up to offer free racing to any man who applies and makes it into the last 20 of the selection process?

 

If a woman came along who was beating all around her I'm pretty sure she would find her backside in a seat fairly quickly. If she continued to beat everyone at each level she competed there would be no reason for her not to arrive in F1. I just don't see this glass ceiling that people keep talking about holding women back.



#347 Requiem84

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 12:40

Can you point out where his post disproves his theory?

 

Also could you point me to the racing series that has been set up to offer free racing to any man who applies and makes it into the last 20 of the selection process?

 

If a woman came along who was beating all around her I'm pretty sure she would find her backside in a seat fairly quickly. If she continued to beat everyone at each level she competed there would be no reason for her not to arrive in F1. I just don't see this glass ceiling that people keep talking about holding women back.

 

Just a small example in a different world.

 

The C-suite (CEO, CFO, COO, CTO etc) have historically been dominated by males. Is there any evidence that this is solely due to discrimination? No. Do people believe it is remarkable and that it could be rooted in other reasons that the alleged 'incompetence or disinterest' from women: YES.

 

Dutch corporate law has a provision since a few years stating that the board of a company and the supervisory board need to include at least 30% women and at least 30% men. 

 

Did you see a glass ceiling there? Perhaps not, other people, including the entire Dutch parliament did see something going on. It's hard to spot if you don't see it. 



#348 maximilian

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 13:10

Maybe I missed it, but was there any talk about super license points being dished out for the W Series?



#349 sgtkate

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 13:32

I do not think there is sexism in terms of drivers in motorsport. That is dependant purely on talent, and to a lesser extent on marketing and country.  If a woman was as good as Stroll came from Japan she would get picked out by Marko, drive the Red Bull ladder and be in an RB before you knew it. Sadly that has never happened, so there is apparently sexism?

 

IN terms of other things, for sure there is. What do you always see women doing in F1, PR, that's about it. 

 

But these days, ANY F1 team would bend over backwards to employ an engineer, GFD prog, harness technician if they were female and they would also likely get the job in favour of men with more relevant experience because HR in these firms are determined to improve their racial and gender footprint.

 

I have seen it happen.

I don't think anyone on here is saying any different to your first paragraph. I'm certainly not. The rest of your post though...


Edited by sgtkate, 06 February 2019 - 13:32.


#350 sgtkate

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 13:33

Maybe I missed it, but was there any talk about super license points being dished out for the W Series?

 

I've not heard either, but I actually hope they don't. It would be hard to put a specific value on the event and would allow for even louder shouts of sexism in favour of women. I hope they don't give the nay-sayers the ammo.