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The Lotus 39


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#101 cooper997

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 01:52

More 1969 New Zealand Tasman info from Milan Fistonic.

 

January 11, 1969 Levin entry list

 

1969-Levin-entry-list-TNF.jpg

 

January 18, 1969 Wigram gird - Milan doesn't have the programme.

 

1969-Wigram-grid-TNF.jpg

 

Part of Milan's message.... "Geoghegan didn't make it to Teretonga (Final 1969 NZ round). After two engine failures, one in practice at Pukekohe and the other in the race at Wigram, he headed for home to prepare for the Aussie rounds."

 

Please note the grid for the 1969 NZ GP has been added into post 93.

 

Thanks again to Milan

 

Stephen



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#102 cooper997

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 07:10

A  couple of 1966 New Zealand Tasman programme with Jim Clark & Co. Entry lists courtesy of Milan.

 

January 8, 1966 NZ GP Pukekohe rd 1

1966-NZ-GP-entry-list-TNF.jpg

 

January 15, 1966 Levin rd2

1966-Levin-entry-list-TNF.jpg

 

Stephen



#103 cooper997

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 08:18

Mark Bisset has found this great Rod MacKenzie photo of Leo G at play.

 

Lotus-39-Geoghegan-Rod-Mac-TNF.jpg

 

Stephen



#104 TerryS

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 23:24

More 1969 New Zealand Tasman info from Milan Fistonic.
 
January 11, 1969 Levin entry list
 
1969-Levin-entry-list-TNF.jpg
 
January 18, 1969 Wigram gird - Milan doesn't have the programme.
 
1969-Wigram-grid-TNF.jpg
 
Part of Milan's message.... "Geoghegan didn't make it to Teretonga (Final 1969 NZ round). After two engine failures, one in practice at Pukekohe and the other in the race at Wigram, he headed for home to prepare for the Aussie rounds."
 
Please note the grid for the 1969 NZ GP has been added into post 93.
 
Thanks again to Milan
 
Stephen


I like the way they show Leo Geoghegan in a Brabham V8.....

#105 cooper997

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:41

1969 Warwick Farm Gold Star/ANF2 entry list thanks to Milan,

 

1969-WF-Hordern-entry-TNF.jpg

 

Stephen



#106 cooper997

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 06:46

Racing Car News had a great many pieces of fine motor racing artwork gracing the covers of its issues over a couple of decades.

 

This cover painting of Leo in the 39 is by David Atkinson with the cover description mentioning it was presented to Leo at a reception after his Japanese GP win, by CAMS.

 

Lotus-39-RCN-Geoghegan-TNF.jpg

 

 

This photo arrived today from another of Mark Bisset's photo finding missions. The note mentioning how he's almost certain it's the December 1969 Warwick Farm Hordern Trophy meeting with Leo leading the Mildren Waggotts of Max Stewart and KB.

 

lotus-39-Geoghegan-Stewart-Bartlett-TNF.

 

Stephen

 



#107 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 07:34

No rear wing there...

There must be a story behind that.

#108 MarkBisset

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 09:05

Guys,
there are so many wing-combos on that Lotus 39 from 1968 to 1970 it's not funny. Wings later in 1968, wingless at the start of the '69 Tasman, hi-wings @ WF to none at Sandown. Hi-wings in the '69 Gold Star till post-Monaco. You sorta get the sense Leo was not certain about what was optimal. Max ran wings on the Mildren Waggott in 1969 but not here in 1.6 litre spec- the 1 race 1969 ANF2 C'Ship was run concurrently with the Gold Star round and was won by Max from Niel. The Sub ran wings all year- historic point here is KB ran the first 2 litre Waggott TC4V and won upon debut. Anyway I THiNK it's the '69 Hordern but it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong!
M

#109 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 10:29

But Leo has the wings on the front...

This would be a very unbalanced car in this state. Could the pic be from practice?

#110 MarkBisset

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 19:34

Ray,
Too many folks for practice? Not much angle on the dangle on the front wing- he seems to be after a smidge better front end bite?
M

#111 SJ Lambert

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 03:40

The Hotchkiss Elfin Mono Cosworth had a run with the Geoghegan  Lotus 39 Climax in the 1966 Hordern Trophy!  :clap: :clap:

 

11061235-750005695097934-697390027507570



#112 lyntonh

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 05:45

These are photos I took in the esses during practice for the Hordern Trophy meeting in December 1969.

Sorry, Mark, but Max has wings and the red helmet, and KB has a dark rim on the nose cone.

Back to the drawing board I'm afraid.!!

151_zpsbkyowvxa.jpg

 

152_zpsjzmyxiof.jpg

 

149_zpssrbkrva2.jpg


Edited by lyntonh, 25 November 2018 - 05:46.


#113 MarkBisset

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 06:05

Ha - ha Lynton!
Case busted! Thanks for posting- I wonder which other meeting it is then?
M

#114 lyntonh

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 06:47

July 69 practice was my first meeting at the farm. KB was in an open face helmet, which fits if you look closely.

Leo had no rear wing which also works.

 

I haven't any photos of Max that day, which would really help!!

 

I only went on the Saturday, so that's where my usefulness ends.

 

And apologies for not cleaning the dross off the scans, I thought you would like a swift reply.!!! :well:

46_zpsbc9sa5ia.jpg

 

49_zps1kcbazsg.jpg


Edited by lyntonh, 25 November 2018 - 06:49.


#115 MarkBisset

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 09:29

Yes, the photo I posted is hard to pick (a date) in part because we can't see what engine is in the Sub.
The configuration of the 39 is bewildering in 1968-9- the most shots of the car in one place are probably in my article- it's wings on / wings off from meeting to meeting which gives one an idea of the challenges to the engineers/drivers in that nascent wing era about what did and didn't work

#116 lyntonh

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 10:22

A couple of shots from 6th December 1969 at Warwick Farm, just for interest.

During practice, Leo spun the car coming out of the esses.

 

174_zpsbyzg343f.jpg

 

175_zpsypdeuipe.jpg


Edited by lyntonh, 25 November 2018 - 10:27.


#117 lyntonh

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 10:23

Here's Leo Geoghegan in the Lotus 39 during practice for the 1970 Tasman round at Warwick Farm.

14_zpsudf2glag.jpg


Edited by lyntonh, 25 November 2018 - 10:26.


#118 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 11:21

It was May 14 when high wings were reined in by the FIA...

 

May 3 Leo was in Japan, but the speed of the circuit there appears to have favoured a non-winged car. At the Farm on the same weekend - May 4, the same weekend as the Spanish GP where the crashes which led to the wing bans - Niel Allen ran bi-winged. But at Oran Park on June 29 none of those leading cars had wings apart from Allen with triangular front tabs and a 'tea tray' on the back of the M4A.

 

Everyone, it can be seen, was in a state of flux with wings. I would suggest they were having problems getting them made and fitted. So two weeks later at the Farm we saw KB with small wings both ends, Leo with the front wings only and Max with none. Leo's high wing was so big it would have needed significant reconstruction to be used under the new rules, which possibly hadn't been finalised anyway. Leo did run the original high wing mounted in a lower position, but it was too wide for the new rules.

 

Bear in mind, too, that this was still in the era during which comparison runs were done to see if it was quicker to race without wings, Even up to Monza in 1970 this was still true in F1.

 

But I don't think it was by choice, at all, that Leo didn't have a rear wing at that meeting. He had a spin coming to the Causeway, too.

 

 

 

 

.


Edited by Ray Bell, 25 November 2018 - 16:43.


#119 cooper997

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 09:29

Time for another relating to Jim, via Max Williams facebook, via Mark Bisset. Looks like he's just heading out for a practice from the (old) Sandown pit lane.

 

lotus-39-Clark-Sandown-TNF.jpg

 

Stephen



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#120 SJ Lambert

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 09:42

Bob Mills' shot of Leo at Mt Fuji

 

086-2.jpg



#121 MarkBisset

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 10:34

Thanks Lynton for all the shots- the 39 and The Sub two of my all time faves!

It does beg the question Ray of who was fabricating the things (wing things) . Both Sydney teams, was there a fabricator of choice being sought out or were they beavering away in their respective shops in which case who was shaping and cutting the metal so to speak?
Interestingly, having been fiddling around with an article on BT23D, KB / Mildren arrived at a mid-1968 wing setup for that car and pretty much, successfully, kept it all the way thru the '69 Tasman, whereas Leo was all over the shop like a mad woman's brekkie?

Another tangent is why the Sub arrived without wings in Oz. Surely FG knew he needed wings well in advance of jumping on the 707 at Heathrow?

M

#122 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 11:04

At the time Frank reckoned it didn't need wings...

 

The shape of the body, I guess. Anyway, as we all know, it ran without them for a short time but had a full set, high wings front and rear, at the AGP at Lakeside in February 1969.



#123 lyntonh

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 02:35

Interesting to note that by the time the Tasman meeting came around in February 1970, only two months later,

Mildren had dispensed with the engine cover mounted wing, and gone to a post-supported arrangement.

 

Perhaps the bodywork moved around too much.

17_zpsmprn5i1k.jpg


Edited by lyntonh, 27 November 2018 - 02:36.


#124 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 07:40

I like the way they show Leo Geoghegan in a Brabham V8.....

And which one of those drivers is still winning?



#125 TerryS

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 19:56

And which one of those drivers is still winning?


Simple, Kenny Smith

#126 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:16

It does beg the question Ray of who was fabricating the things (wing things) . Both Sydney teams, was there a fabricator of choice being sought out or were they beavering away in their respective shops in which case who was shaping and cutting the metal so to speak?
Interestingly, having been fiddling around with an article on BT23D, KB / Mildren arrived at a mid-1968 wing setup for that car and pretty much, successfully, kept it all the way thru the '69 Tasman, whereas Leo was all over the shop like a mad woman's brekkie?


Alan Standfield was probably the best aluminium fabricator in Sydney.

Edited by Catalina Park, 28 November 2018 - 10:19.


#127 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 12:56

I think a fuller answer is required for Mark's question...

First, let's deal with the 23D situation he describes. The period involved was prior to the condemnation of high wings, so once they established they had a working wing arrangement there was no need to change it.

Then Leo's. He went for a bigger wing, more inclined to create more drag to offset its downforce benefit. Leo would also have been looking at the Team Lotus developments, which were happening quite rapidly at this time. Hence he ran the wing mounted off the rollover bar and he ran it in a higher position.

And, like Team Lotus, he ran laps without it on circuits with longer straights in an effort to benefit from higher straight-line speed.

Another point worth considering is that everyone was in a quandary regarding just what chord profile was required to get efficiency at the speeds where the downforce was most required.

I wonder,for instance, what an aerodynamicist might say about the angle of Stewart's wing here...

1118fr-MBstewartandharveyon-OPgrid.jpg

...and whether he might suggest it's getting close to a stall angle?




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 28 November 2018 - 12:56.


#128 cooper997

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 04:49

May 81 WHEELS magazine 6 page feature on John Dawson-Damer's Lotus collection - the 39 was under restoration at the time.

 

Lotus-39-JDD-feature-01.jpg

Lotus-39-JDD-feature-02.jpg

Lotus-39-JDD-feature-03.jpg

 

Stephen



#129 Doug Nye

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 08:40


These are photos I took in the esses during practice for the Hordern Trophy meeting in December 1969.

Sorry, Mark, but Max has wings and the red helmet, and KB has a dark rim on the nose cone.

Back to the drawing board I'm afraid.!!

151_zpsbkyowvxa.jpg

 

152_zpsjzmyxiof.jpg

 

149_zpssrbkrva2.jpg

 

 

Wonderful photos Lynton....

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 01 December 2018 - 08:41.


#130 ellrosso

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 06:24

Few more pics of the Leo Geoghegan Lotus 39. The Symmons Plains Gold Star grid is particularly special for me as it was the first time I'd seen these cars/drivers "in the flesh" and I was a big fan of the Geoghegans. Leo and KB had a great dice for the first few laps too. The ex Courage McLaren M4A of Neil Allen is in the foreground of course - now owned by McLaren's Mike Flewitt and will no doubt be raced at Goodwood etc.7075-A-Grid-69-lo.jpg9316-F-Leo-G-69-lo.jpg9956-F-LGeo-70-lo.jpg



#131 ellrosso

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 08:39

Discovered the sequence of Leo Geoghegan losing the wheel at Longford in 1968 in the Aust Motor Racing Annual 1968 edition - pic courtesy of that publication.lotus39-lo.jpg



#132 cooper997

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 01:12

Time this thread got an addition.

 

Mark Bisset has forwarded this photo and comments.

"Leo @ WF during the 1969 Tasman round- he wasn’t entirely convinced tho- raced sans wings the following week @ Sandown.
However flimsy the mount looked it was better than GLTL efforts! And a neat solution to the challenge of mounting direct to the upright and movement.
Yay Sheppo and Leo!"

 

1969-WF-Tas-Leo-G.jpg

 

 

Stephen



#133 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 04:31

Photo taken by? Maybe Bill Forsyth?

As they stood next to Bob and myself, of course. The best spot at the Farm.