69 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Inspired by the curious exchanges between Max and his team during Sunday’s Mexican GP race in which it sounded like Max was asking the team to turn down his engine mid race, And then it sounding like it had been done? I didn’t think that was allowed.

So, was this just shorthand for Max asking for permission to do it himself or do the teams have more power to control the car remotely than I thought? I understand Martin Brundle was puzzled by this also.

[PayasYouRace]

I was curious about that too because I was sure only voice telemetry was allowed from the pit to the car. Gone are the days of DC winning at Monaco with the pit wall adjusting the car on the fly.

[statman]

He was given the instructions, then the team confirmed by saying "the engine has been turned down for reference" by monitoring the data

[pacificquay]

No pit to car data is permitted at all.

Edited by pacificquay, 29 October 2018 - 10:38.

[IceSpeed]

What’s interesting about this exchange is that Max didn’t know how to turn down his engine, something that Merc have probably done every race.

Does this mean that redbull have been running Renault engines on full power every race? Could this contribute to reliability issues as well? Just a thought...

[Sterzo]

So, was this just shorthand for Max asking for permission to do it himself...

Yes.

[JeePee]

What’s interesting about this exchange is that Max didn’t know how to turn down his engine, something that Merc have probably done every race.

Does this mean that redbull have been running Renault engines on full power every race? Could this contribute to reliability issues as well? Just a thought...

Mercedes even forgot to turn it up again yesterday

[A3]

Inspired by the curious exchanges between Max and his team during Sunday’s Mexican GP race in which it sounded like Max was asking the team to turn down his engine mid race, And then it sounding like it had been done? I didn’t think that was allowed.

So, was this just shorthand for Max asking for permission to do it himself or do the teams have more power to control the car remotely than I thought? I understand Martin Brundle was puzzled by this also.

 

 

I think Max was asking for a setting that reduced engine power. It did sound weird.

[w1Y]

It was the way it was said which was odd.

Max was asking them to please turn it down and then they confirmed the engine is now turned down.

Was odd but we must be missing a part of the puzzle

[A3]

I'm always puzzled by Mercedes's "magic" radio messages:
From the US GP:

To Hamilton:	Brake magic on. RS magic off.		
To Hamilton:    So just check, you have the magic on, so no worries

To Hamilton:	Well done mate that’s P3. Not our day but we’ll take that result. So we’ve got Vettel, he’s just muscled his way past Valtteri so he’s finished P4, Valtteri P5. HHP8 to 13 and strat 12. Brake magic off, RS magic off.
		

Edited by A3, 29 October 2018 - 11:03.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Pit to car modifications was banned a low time ago!

[Sash1]

Could be that they just said that to ease his mind while they did nothing at all. During this discussion they even had to ask him to slow down because he was running the fastest sector times of his race.

[Reddington]

What’s interesting about this exchange is that Max didn’t know how to turn down his engine...

 

How did you draw that conclusion? I bet he knows very well how to do so. Many times they have stated they turned down engines later in the races and the driver has to do it themselves. 

 

I am pretty sure he was just asking permission to turn it down. The wording might have been odd, but I don't think there is any more to it than that.

[ANF]

He was given the instructions, then the team confirmed by saying "the engine has been turned down for reference" by monitoring the data

Yeah. Here's some radio from Austin when he had to save a bit of fuel and was only allowed to use mode seven on the back straight.

To Verstappen:	You might notice your fuel goes slightly unsafe on the dash but we’re monitoring that so let us control it.
To Verstappen:	Do you think you can push up to Kimi or is that your pace?
Verstappen:	I’m doing it in a sensible way.
To Verstappen:	Understood. Fine for now, just make sure you’re in Kimi’s tow which will help you in that fight down to turn 12.
To Verstappen:	You may use mode seven between 11 and 12 for the rest of the race. Mode seven before turn 11 and then mode eight after turn 12 as soon as you can.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I think by “let us control it” Red Bull basically meant they monitor via there live telemetry and advise accordingly

[F1matt]

In effect they control it all, the driver is a highly paid process operator. Thinking against the engineers is probably punished in team meetings.

[BRG]

I think that it is clear that Horner now has a 'F*** That Disloyal Aussie B*****d' button that allows him to control Ricciardo's car

[MastaKink]

Wasn't there some confusion about Lewis in Abu Dhabi in 2014 I think when Nico's car failed and there was a message then that caused similar confusion because it sounded like they'd turned his engine down without him (Lewis) knowing or something along those lines?

 

Hopefully someone can fill in the bits I'm missing, lol. 

[MastaKink]

I think that it is clear that Horner now has a 'F*** That Disloyal Aussie B*****d' button that allows him to control Ricciardo's car

 

First developed for the RB9 I believe. 

[pdac]

They can control the driver - which is a big part.

[Augurk]

Wasn't there some confusion about Lewis in Abu Dhabi in 2014 I think when Nico's car failed and there was a message then that caused similar confusion because it sounded like they'd turned his engine down without him (Lewis) knowing or something along those lines?

Hopefully someone can fill in the bits I'm missing, lol.

That was back when a driver wasn't even allowed to receive instructions or coaching whatsoever from the pit wall

[PeterScandlyn]

They can control the driver - which is a big part.

 

Ahh, got it.

 

Guess this is an area McLaren is woefully lacking in. 

Don't think at any time Zak has been in control of his star driver......  

[prty]

Inspired by the curious exchanges between Max and his team during Sunday’s Mexican GP race in which it sounded like Max was asking the team to turn down his engine mid race, And then it sounding like it had been done? I didn’t think that was allowed.

So, was this just shorthand for Max asking for permission to do it himself or do the teams have more power to control the car remotely than I thought? I understand Martin Brundle was puzzled by this also.

Well, they probably are indeed able to modify car parameters from the pitwall, how could they make Ricciardo DNF otherwise?

[RPM40]

None by the regulations. Telemetry is one directional. The driver has to make all changes.

[kumo7]

None by the regulations. Telemetry is one directional. The driver has to make all changes.

 

In theory, ... is it? 

 

that is the question.

I can imagine that every single rule has a capacity to be a loophole.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

In theory, ... is it?

that is the question.
I can imagine that every single rule has a capacity to be a loophole.

If the rules are written that data can only be sent one way (car to pit - as they are currently) - I can’t see how any loopholes could possibly be - but without seeing the rules who knows...

I guess they would argue over what data is but to me it’s clear...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 30 October 2018 - 07:29.

[Jazza]

Teams can’t send data to the car, they can only talk over the radio. But we all use things like Siri, Alexa, Cortana, Google Assitant, etc, in our every day life. Is there a possibility that the pits can talk to the car itself?

For example; “Car... set engine mode to number 8”.

It would only be sending radio messages and not data, and therefore a potential loophole in the rules...

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Teams can’t send data to the car, they can only talk over the radio. But we all use things like Siri, Alexa, Cortana, Google Assitant, etc, in our every day life. Is there a possibility that the pits can talk to the car itself?

For example; “Car... set engine mode to number 8”.

It would only be sending radio messages and not data, and therefore a potential loophole in the rules...

Lol!

Or Hamilton engine mode 8... they would they are just talking to the driver...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 30 October 2018 - 07:30.

[SBR]

Teams can’t send data to the car, they can only talk over the radio. But we all use things like Siri, Alexa, Cortana, Google Assitant, etc, in our every day life. Is there a possibility that the pits can talk to the car itself?

For example; “Car... set engine mode to number 8”.

It would only be sending radio messages and not data, and therefore a potential loophole in the rules...

Get me some of whatever you're smoking haha.

[Jazza]

Get me some of whatever you're smoking haha.

Why? The technology is literally in our own homes and easy to come by.

The rules stop raw data being sent to the car, but does it by the letter stop verbal instructions to it? If not, there is the potential loophole in how the pits can change setting on the car... They don’t change the setting, they literally tell the car to change the settings itself.

[JBJ]

Technically possible, doubt the teams would do it, they have the driver to do it.

[Jazza]

Technically possible, doubt the teams would do it, they have the driver to do it.

Possibly. I’m certainly not claiming that they are doing this.

The question of this thread is in regards to strange radio messages that suggest that the teams have made changes to the cars from the pits. The obvious answer is that they can’t because the rules forbid it. This is just an idea to the question of could there be a loophole that would allow them to still make changes anyway.

These cars have hundreds of different settings. The driver already has the actual driving to worry about. If the teams could make changes to the cars without concerning the driver they would. Hence why pit to car telemetry was banned on the first place.

[WilliamsF1Fan]

Interesting idea, but if it is anything like my experience of voice control (and I have a fairly neutral, South East English accent), instead of switching to Engine Mode B (for example), the car would end up trying to order a bowl of spaghetti.  So yeah, I think Red Bull are trying it hence the problems on Ricciardos car!

[kumo7]

Interesting idea, but if it is anything like my experience of voice control (and I have a fairly neutral, South East English accent), instead of switching to Engine Mode B (for example), the car would end up trying to order a bowl of spaghetti.  So yeah, I think Red Bull are trying it hence the problems on Ricciardos car!

 

LOL you can now train the thing. 

[pdac]

If a team tells their driver to press some buttons and turn some dials and the driver has no idea what the sequence does, is that not the same thing?

[RichardF1fan]

A long time ago an F1 team asked me to look at designing a 'briefcase' with a high power Infra red emitter to leave on the start finish line that relayed instructions to a receiver on the car... They decided against going with it in the end

[NotAPineapple]

A long time ago an F1 team asked me to look at designing a 'briefcase' with a high power Infra red emitter to leave on the start finish line that relayed instructions to a receiver on the car... They decided against going with it in the end

 

A long time ago it was legal wasn't it?

 

They used to have (not sure if it's still used) microwave transmitters in the pit side rearview mirror housing which shot a high powered stream of data to the pits every lap. They were so powerful that the teams covered them up when the car boxed to avoid having their bollocks mircowaved by accident.

[RichardF1fan]

Car to pit was legal - it was the other way round that wasn't.

[KevD]

I'm always puzzled by Mercedes's "magic" radio messages:
From the US GP:

To Hamilton:	Brake magic on. RS magic off.		
To Hamilton:    So just check, you have the magic on, so no worries

To Hamilton:	Well done mate that’s P3. Not our day but we’ll take that result. So we’ve got Vettel, he’s just muscled his way past Valtteri so he’s finished P4, Valtteri P5. HHP8 to 13 and strat 12. Brake magic off, RS magic off.
		

 

Mercedes 'magic on' messages often correlate with VSC-situations. At Red Bull they seem to call it 'reverse on'. Might have something to do with boosting energy harvesting or keeping temperature in the tyres and brakes while at low speed.

 

What’s interesting about this exchange is that Max didn’t know how to turn down his engine, something that Merc have probably done every race.

Does this mean that redbull have been running Renault engines on full power every race? Could this contribute to reliability issues as well? Just a thought...

 

I think there are different ways (and levels) to control engine power output. The team decides the method and the setting, I assume. Max was instructed to change a fuel setting and right after that he received the pit wall message stating that the engine was turned down.

[Kalmake]

Car to pit was legal - it was the other way round that wasn't.

Both ways used to be legal. Now only car to pit is.

[SophieB]

If a team tells their driver to press some buttons and turn some dials and the driver has no idea what the sequence does, is that not the same thing?

 

 

That reminds me that they've basically just dropped that thing where the engineers weren't allowed to give more than very basic info haven't they, Seems a looooong time since there was a controversy over whether someone was allowed to be told which buttons to press in what order. 

 

Which means we are probably not going to ever get a repeat of the curious spectacle of the time Lewis Hamilton spent his afternoon trying to get answers out of his engineer about a problem they could plainly tell him the answer to instantly but weren't allowed, despite Lewis trying different approaches like 'are you allowed to tell me if I guess it right' or (my personal favourite) I''m just going to press ALL THE BUTTONS' which prompted the cautious response of 'I cannot advise that, Lewis' after a beautifully reflective pause.

 

Anyway, the consensus seems to be that nope, they aren't allowed to do stuff via the pitwall so most likely Max was just asking for permission (and it being granted) in an oddly worded way, thanks for the replies.

[Fastcake]

Possibly. I’m certainly not claiming that they are doing this.

The question of this thread is in regards to strange radio messages that suggest that the teams have made changes to the cars from the pits. The obvious answer is that they can’t because the rules forbid it. This is just an idea to the question of could there be a loophole that would allow them to still make changes anyway.

These cars have hundreds of different settings. The driver already has the actual driving to worry about. If the teams could make changes to the cars without concerning the driver they would. Hence why pit to car telemetry was banned on the first place.

I would think “the driver must drive the car alone and unaided” would prevent that, regardless of the rules on radio and telemetry.

[Redzone]

I would think “the driver must drive the car alone and unaided” would prevent that, regardless of the rules on radio and telemetry.

 

Ban radios except for emergencies and completely ban all telemetry  to and from

[pup]

The question of this thread is in regards to strange radio messages that suggest that the teams have made changes to the cars from the pits. The obvious answer is that they can’t because the rules forbid it. This is just an idea to the question of could there be a loophole that would allow them to still make changes anyway.

 

The loophole is that it's impossible to police.  

[Kalmake]

The loophole is that it's impossible to police.  

Because radio waves and electronics are magic?

[Augurk]

Isn't the obvious answer to the "awkward" radio messages that of course the driver has to turn the dials, but needs to rely on the team's army of engineers to decide which setting will be best at that time? They don't have a "turned up" and "turned down" engine mode. They have plenty of engine modes. And on each track, on each circumstance (in regards to what competitors are doing, how big gaps are, how power dependant a track is, how much cooling there is) it requires a different mode to make optimal use? 

 

 

Just listened to the full race radio transcript. Between Max' last request to "turn it down" and the confirmation from the team the engine has been turned down they do give him instructions: "Fuel 4, position 2". 

[OO7]

Isn't the obvious answer to the "awkward" radio messages that of course the driver has to turn the dials, but needs to rely on the team's army of engineers to decide which setting will be best at that time? They don't have a "turned up" and "turned down" engine mode. They have plenty of engine modes. And on each track, on each circumstance (in regards to what competitors are doing, how big gaps are, how power dependant a track is, how much cooling there is) it requires a different mode to make optimal use? 

 

 

Just listened to the full race radio transcript. Between Max' last request to "turn it down" and the confirmation from the team the engine has been turned down they do give him instructions: "Fuel 4, position 2". 

Yep.  At Mercedes for example, the turquoise HPP PU knob is controlled entirely from the pit-wall.

[pup]

Because radio waves and electronics are magic?

No, because the FIA can't magically monitor the entire radio spectrum for two-second long encrypted broadcasts; nor can they examine every line of code on every car nor every chip on every bit of electronics.  These guys are doing good to hang test weights on the ends of wings - they're not the NSA.

Edited by pup, 31 October 2018 - 20:58.

[BRG]

No, because the FIA can't magically monitor the entire radio spectrum for two-second long encrypted broadcasts; nor can they examine every line of code on every car nor every chip on every bit of electronics.  These guys are doing good to hang test weights on the ends of wings - they're not the NSA.

But even the FIA could check drivers' helmets for microphones and earpieces.  And wires from the helmet to the car.  That's not rocket science.

[pup]

You wouldn't need any of that.  Any disguised electronics along the path from the steering wheel to the ECU, and even within the steering wheel itself, could make inputs that to the ECU would look like they came from the steering wheel.