29 replies to this topic

[Andrew Hope]

I know this is a sad topic but having gone down a Youtube rabbit hole recently on the topic of F1 in the early 1980s, I respectfully ask the members here if they can help me learn about this accident through any of the following questions I have. I have searched the forum for old threads concerning this topic, but of course I may have overlooked something. My knowledge of F1 pre-2000s is not superficial, but probably closer to that than encyclopedic, which is how I would describe the knowledge of many folks here.

I know that members here often know drivers and/or their family personally, and have strong emotional attachments to them. I will not tip-toe and wring hands (motor racing is a very ugly sport sometimes, and we need to be grown ups) but at the same time I want to know more about Didier Pironi (beyond simply his relationship to Gilles Villeneuve) and I hope no one finds my questions to cross any lines. I have Googled and answered some other questions I had, but this is the best place to ask.

Can anyone briefly or extensively answer the following:

-How bad was the visibility in the rain at Hockenheim that day, and was Hockenheim worse because of how tightly the trees lined the course?
-Was Pironi's life in danger once emergency crews had reached the accident scene?
-Is it true he already had pole, and didn't need to be out in the rain at all?
-Was the Ferrari of that year less safe relative to the other cars?
-Where on the circuit did the incident happen?
-What was the sequence of events, from Pironi leaving the pits up to the accident? Did his car fly through the air and hit the ground in an almighty smash, or did it cartwheel down the track?
-My understanding is Pironi attempted to pass a car in the rain and spray, unaware there were actually two cars in the spray. Is this correct? What was the speed difference between the cars involved in the initial collision?

I would appreciate anyone who has something to say on the topic to educate me. I have long loved Gilles Villeneuve but the more I learn about Didier Pironi the more I like him as well, and I would like to know why his career had to come to such an unpleasant end, when it seems he was on pace to win the title.

[HP]

Some of your questions are covered here

https://www.motorspo...-pironi/455837/

Edited by HP, 30 October 2018 - 09:59.

[F1matt]

If you scroll along to page 3 of TNF there is a thread dedicated to Didier Pironi, there has been some discussion about the chassis strength of the Ferrari and plenty on his crash. 

[cpbell]

Some of your questions are covered here

https://www.motorspo...-pironi/455837/

I'm afraid I'm not really impressed by that article - it reads like a trashy novel and is highly critical of one of the best motorsport writers of recent decades, Nigel Roebuck.
 

[E1pix]

Not to derail, in part, but that article reads pretty well to me.

I don't see it as critical of Roebuck at all, but pretty factual in that many, many in the press had thought less of Didier after San Marino. Though I wasn't in racing media in that period, my thoughts were exactly parallel to Nigel's.

[SophieB]

Some of your questions are covered here
https://www.motorspo...-pironi/455837/

FWIW, to pick up a point from that article, in Senna versus Prost by Malcolm Folley, the author says it was Prost who pleaded with Watkins to not amputate Peroni’s legs. As to the wider question of whether his life was ever in danger, almost certainly yes. If they are considering amputating limbs at the scene, they would be doing so to try to save your life.

This is part of the reflections of the accident by Folley, for the OP’s interest.

Pironi had been out in the heavy rain earlier than most other drivers. He was pushing his Ferrari near the limit for lap after lap. 'Didier was hot, the car was good,' recalls Prost. 'He had strong possibilities to be world champion and he had a new girlfriend. He was strong –at the top.' And then –disaster. Pironi became airborne after he hit the back of Prost's car. When his Ferrari thundered back to earth it broke around him like a balsawood model. Prost, rushing back to the wrecked Ferrari, heard the medics discussing the need to amputate one, or both, of Pironi's legs that had been mangled in the footwell of his car. Prost says he pleaded loudly with the doctors: 'NO . . . NO . . . NO.' Pironi was in agony, but, with or without Prost's protestations, his legs were spared.

[ensign14]

I'm afraid I'm not really impressed by that article - it reads like a trashy novel and is highly critical of one of the best motorsport writers of recent decades, Nigel Roebuck.
 

 

Its opening words:

 

As the scarlet racing car hurtled through the air on a dark, soulless morning, its driver, startled to glimpse the tops of pine trees which abounded around the race track, knew in an instant that he was in very grave danger.

 

 

Jeez.

[Andrew Hope]

Thanks for the replies and the help.

By the way, since I started this thread, I should add: we all are capable of missing something painfully obvious staring us in the face, and indeed I could make a career of this. I've read in different articles on Didi, that as he was trapped in the wreckage at Hockenheim, one of the things he kept repeating was that they get him out of the car as he feared a fire could start. Seems reasonable enough. Then, talking to a work buddy today about going to Montreal to see a GP one day, CLUNK: it fell into place. What had Pironi just been within arms reach of in Montreal, a short time before he himself became trapped in a mangled race car, unable to free himself?

Unlike the beginning of that article posted above, I will not presume to know what the poor man's thoughts were as he lay in the wreckage with hideous injuries to his legs. But I wouldn't be surprised if there was something - which is to say, someone - more specific that he was thinking about than just fire generally.

What an awful year. That's why my phone wallpaper is a more pleasant memory:

Edited by Andrew Hope, 31 October 2018 - 08:18.

[Mallory Dan]

Undoubtedly a tragic year, Andrew. But in racing terms, truly brilliant. Arguably the best ever? 

[AJCee]

In Sid Watkins' autobiography he states that it was Pironi who implored him to save his legs.

Could always have been both to different members of the medical team at different times though.

The accident was a few hundred yards from the entrance to the stadium section.

Agree with Ensign about the opening paragraph of that article.

Edited by AJCee, 31 October 2018 - 08:54.

[Claudio Navonne]

Undoubtedly a tragic year, Andrew. But in racing terms, truly brilliant. Arguably the best ever? 

I think like 1958, It's my humble opinion.

[Henri Greuter]

Undoubtedly a tragic year, Andrew. But in racing terms, truly brilliant. Arguably the best ever?

A year with so many tragedies and fatalities can't be the best ever year for me, not even if it would have resulted into a favorite driver of me becoming champion because of a lot of the results and effects of some of those tragedies.

Not eligible for taking the prize, honorable mention at best......

[SophieB]

In Sid Watkins' autobiography he states that it was Pironi who implored him to save his legs.

Could always have been both to different members of the medical team at different times though.
 

This prompted me to re-look at Motorsport Magazine's Lunch with Sid Watkins where he talks about this so I thought I'd quote it because I think if nothing else it suggests in the confusion and stress of the situation different possibly led to people hearing different things:

 

“All the drivers were good chaps in their different ways, and I got on well with all of them. The only one I didn’t like was Didier Pironi. He was a surly fellow. He wasn’t grateful for anything we did for him after his Hockenheim accident. When we got to him he knew his legs were terribly injured, and he implored me to save them. I said to him, ‘There’s no way your legs are coming off. Even if they’re very bad, they’re not coming off today.’ But after we’d flown in the helicopter to Heidlberg and we were getting ready for a very long and complicated operation, I was surprised to hear the consultant surgeon say bluntly to him that an amputation might be needed. I repeated to Pironi that I would not agree to such an action at that point, whatever might be necessary later. Later he complained to Bernie that he’d heard me say, while he was in the car, ‘Let’s take his leg off. It will be quicker for getting him out,’ which of course I hadn’t. I said to Bernie, ‘No, it was his head I wanted to cut off.’ I’m delighted to say that Pironi went on to make a good recovery, although he never returned to Formula 1. Of course he died in that powerboat accident five years later.

 

 

https://www.motorspo...sor-sid-watkins

[Radoye]

A family friend (my mom and his wife were schoolmates) was a flag marshal that day, and on his way back from his post towards the paddock area he picked up some pieces of Pironi's car - namely one of the side skirts and a badly twisted steering wheel that was left behind at the site of the accident after the wreckage was carried away. He took them to the Ferrari garage but was told by the mechanics they don't need them and to do with them as he pleases. He took them home and displayed them on the wall of his "man cave", where i had the chance to see them some years later.

[E1pix]

A year with so many tragedies and fatalities can't be the best ever year for me, not even if it would have resulted into a favorite driver of me becoming champion because of a lot of the results and effects of some of those tragedies.Not eligible for taking the prize, honorable mention at best......

We both know Dan meant no harm of course, but in addition to the following Saturday, it was the only year that had me close to never watching another race again.

[racinggeek]

The following Saturday? Afraid you have me at a loss if you mean the Saturday after Pironi's accident.

[Collombin]

He is referring to Gordon Smiley's death the week after Gilles.

Edited by E.B., 31 October 2018 - 18:28.

[Henri Greuter]

We both know Dan meant no harm of course, but in addition to the following Saturday, it was the only year that had me close to never watching another race again.

 

 

No problem with anbody who still thinks 1982 was the best ever season racingwise. It is just me that can't feel a season with so much tragedies be a good one for the racing.

BTW, this had nothing to do with the fact that Gilles, who was/is my favorite driver was killed that year.

 

It is common knowledge over here at this forum that even now, 25 years and more on, i still feel an intense disgust for Senna. It goes even that far that I refuse to read any article about the supercar named after him, I still get boiling blood when thinking about him and his legacy.

But his death, as well as that of Roland Ratzenberger as well as all other incidents with nasty results for drivers involved that year, I can't say a single positive word about F1 season 1994 or can rate it in whatever manner as a positive one for me. Too many too bad things happened to be compensated for that.

[Mallory Dan]

Fully agree, Henri re '94. Though it was great to see Damon step up to the plate.

[DCapps]

Some of your questions are covered here

https://www.motorspo...-pironi/455837/

 

Oh. My. Goodness.

 

It reads as if Joe Scalzo or any number of equally vapid scribblers wrote that piece. However, as they say, My Bad, given I am certainly not the audience for that article.

 

As for the 1982 season, I am not sure that I could even begin to suggest it as being "the best" F1 season ever, but certainly would offer it as one of the more interesting and challenging seasons in the series, given its sustained unpredictability and the many unexpected twists and turns to the season. I have long been fascinated by the surreal nature of the season (http://atlasf1.autos...hun/mirror.html) and Christopher Hilton and I spoke about it more a time or two in our exchanges.

[Jim Thurman]

Don beat me to it, but I was going to mention that the article reads like something John Sawyer might have written. No, not Scalzo, because it didn't work in anything about the driver being a nutjob or imply that he had a snoot full of juice, or a head filled with wacky tabacky   There is a level, just below Scalzo, filled with motorsport writers who take a Robert Daley-esque approach, or more accurately, seem to take on the worst elements of Hemingway: "It was a good death!"

 

The first graf of the Pironi piece reads like Bad Hemingway meets Grantland Rice, or meets whoever it was that wrote the copy for NFL Films 

 

As an aside, where are the motorsport Saroyans in response to the motorsport Hemingways? 

[Michael Ferner]

Awful article, I agree. Simply awful.

I knew I had the timing report for this practice session somewhere, so I dug it out for a short analysis which makes for interesting reading. There were only seven cars circulating the track at the time, so for three of them to have met in one spot is almost beyond belief. Here's the raw data:

15'25.596" Winkelhock 15'25.596"
15'53.019" Daly 15'53.019"
17'46.569" Winkelhock 2'20.973"
18'01.919" Tambay 18'01.919"
18'12.369" Daly 2'19.350"
18'27.051" Pironi 18'27.051"
18'29.925" Rosberg 18'29.925"
20'03.771" Winkelhock 2'17.202"
20'18.360" Tambay 2'16.441"
20'29.201" Daly 2'16.832"
20'38.820" Pironi 2'11.769"
20'52.306" Rosberg 2'22.381"
20'58.553" Cheever 20'58.553"
22'21.291" Winkelhock 2'17.520"
22'34.203" Tambay 2'15.843"
22'40.847" Prost 22'40.847"
22'44.532" Daly 2'15.331"
22'49.761" Pironi 2'10.941"
23'08.020" Rosberg 2'15.714"
23'16.534" Cheever 2'17.981"
24'35.643" Winkelhock 2'14.352"
24'48.449" Tambay 2'14.246"

The left column shows the time stamp at which the timing beam was triggered, followed by the name of the driver and the actual lap time. It shows how Pironi was lapping almost five seconds quicker than the next fastest man, which was actually Daly at the time of the accident, although times were generally still tumbling, so Winkelhock and Tambay beat his previous best before practice was stopped. We don't know how fast Prost was going, for he was on his first flying lap and I think he later stated that he was going back to the pits again, so he may have slowed on the run to the motodrome; in any case the data shows how he started that fateful lap almost nine seconds ahead of Pironi, so he was much, much slower in any case. Pironi was really motoring, though, as he must have left the pits about the same time as Rosberg, who was no slouch, but almost twenty seconds behind after only three laps!

So, to answer your questions:
-How bad was the visibility in the rain at Hockenheim that day, and was Hockenheim worse because of how tightly the trees lined the course?

Yes, Hockenheim was notoriously bad in the rain because the wind cannot dissipate the spray between the trees. However, as there were only seven cars practicing at the time of the accident, overall conditions weren't too bad.

-Was Pironi's life in danger once emergency crews had reached the accident scene?

Very much so. medical shock can and will be fatal, if not treated immediately.

-Is it true he already had pole, and didn't need to be out in the rain at all?

This was an untimed session, so obviously not relevant for starting position. However, with weather forecasts not entirely clear about race day, drivers and teams are usually looking for an opportunity to try wet settings.

-Was the Ferrari of that year less safe relative to the other cars?

That was the opinion of many at the time. There's a relatively current thread on TNF here discussing this, without coming to a clearcut conclusion.

-Where on the circuit did the incident happen?

On the final straight leading from the third chicane to the motordrome.

-What was the sequence of events, from Pironi leaving the pits up to the accident? Did his car fly through the air and hit the ground in an almighty smash, or did it cartwheel down the track?

It is my understanding that the car went up in the air, and then hit the track head-on before making contact with the barriers. No cartwheels, I don't think so.

-My understanding is Pironi attempted to pass a car in the rain and spray, unaware there were actually two cars in the spray. Is this correct? What was the speed difference between the cars involved in the initial collision?

Above data will help understanding this, however it's difficult to be sure about the speed differential. Prost may have gone at competitive speed for three quarters of the lap, before slowing to little more than perhaps 100 mph? The truth is, nobody is likely to know for sure, not even Prost himself.

[E1pix]

This place is a whole lot snobbier than I realized.

[Jim Thurman]

This place is a whole lot snobbier than I realized.

 

[E1pix]

The following Saturday? Afraid you have me at a loss if you mean the Saturday after Pironi's accident.

EB nailed it Tom, sorry that wasn't clearer in my post. :-/

[ensign14]

The first graf of the Pironi piece reads like Bad Hemingway meets Grantland Rice, or meets whoever it was that wrote the copy for NFL Films 

 
It actually reminded me of Alan Partridge's interview of France's second-best racing driver, Michel Lambert.

-When you crashed three years ago, did you ever consider gi...

-Giving up motor racing for good? No I didn't, next question.

-No! No, I wasn't going to say that.

-No you weren't? A more original question?

-No, I was going to say... Did you ever consider... the scenery?

-Yes I did. looked out of the window and I thought, "oh! Look at the scenery!"

[Andrew Hope]

Scarlet: for when red just ain't deep and sensitive enough for the 15-year old poet in you.

[Andrew Hope]

Awful article, I agree. Simply awful.

I knew I had the timing report for this practice session somewhere, so I dug it out for a short analysis which makes for interesting reading. There were only seven cars circulating the track at the time, so for three of them to have met in one spot is almost beyond belief. Here's the raw data:

15'25.596" Winkelhock 15'25.596"
15'53.019" Daly 15'53.019"
17'46.569" Winkelhock 2'20.973"
18'01.919" Tambay 18'01.919"
18'12.369" Daly 2'19.350"
18'27.051" Pironi 18'27.051"
18'29.925" Rosberg 18'29.925"
20'03.771" Winkelhock 2'17.202"
20'18.360" Tambay 2'16.441"
20'29.201" Daly 2'16.832"
20'38.820" Pironi 2'11.769"
20'52.306" Rosberg 2'22.381"
20'58.553" Cheever 20'58.553"
22'21.291" Winkelhock 2'17.520"
22'34.203" Tambay 2'15.843"
22'40.847" Prost 22'40.847"
22'44.532" Daly 2'15.331"
22'49.761" Pironi 2'10.941"
23'08.020" Rosberg 2'15.714"
23'16.534" Cheever 2'17.981"
24'35.643" Winkelhock 2'14.352"
24'48.449" Tambay 2'14.246"

The left column shows the time stamp at which the timing beam was triggered, followed by the name of the driver and the actual lap time. It shows how Pironi was lapping almost five seconds quicker than the next fastest man, which was actually Daly at the time of the accident, although times were generally still tumbling, so Winkelhock and Tambay beat his previous best before practice was stopped. We don't know how fast Prost was going, for he was on his first flying lap and I think he later stated that he was going back to the pits again, so he may have slowed on the run to the motodrome; in any case the data shows how he started that fateful lap almost nine seconds ahead of Pironi, so he was much, much slower in any case. Pironi was really motoring, though, as he must have left the pits about the same time as Rosberg, who was no slouch, but almost twenty seconds behind after only three laps!

So, to answer your questions:
-How bad was the visibility in the rain at Hockenheim that day, and was Hockenheim worse because of how tightly the trees lined the course?

Yes, Hockenheim was notoriously bad in the rain because the wind cannot dissipate the spray between the trees. However, as there were only seven cars practicing at the time of the accident, overall conditions weren't too bad.

-Was Pironi's life in danger once emergency crews had reached the accident scene?

Very much so. medical shock can and will be fatal, if not treated immediately.

-Is it true he already had pole, and didn't need to be out in the rain at all?

This was an untimed session, so obviously not relevant for starting position. However, with weather forecasts not entirely clear about race day, drivers and teams are usually looking for an opportunity to try wet settings.

-Was the Ferrari of that year less safe relative to the other cars?

That was the opinion of many at the time. There's a relatively current thread on TNF here discussing this, without coming to a clearcut conclusion.

-Where on the circuit did the incident happen?

On the final straight leading from the third chicane to the motordrome.

-What was the sequence of events, from Pironi leaving the pits up to the accident? Did his car fly through the air and hit the ground in an almighty smash, or did it cartwheel down the track?

It is my understanding that the car went up in the air, and then hit the track head-on before making contact with the barriers. No cartwheels, I don't think so.

-My understanding is Pironi attempted to pass a car in the rain and spray, unaware there were actually two cars in the spray. Is this correct? What was the speed difference between the cars involved in the initial collision?

Above data will help understanding this, however it's difficult to be sure about the speed differential. Prost may have gone at competitive speed for three quarters of the lap, before slowing to little more than perhaps 100 mph? The truth is, nobody is likely to know for sure, not even Prost himself.

Nailed it, thank you. I appreciate your time in writing all that.

Breaking both legs into soup is a rather specific phobia of mine, to the point where no word of a lie, if the lord almighty stopped my Ferrari at the point in my flight where I could make out distant landmarks over the tops of 30 foot tall trees to ask me if I wanted me to meet Jochen Mass and have everything go black forever, or to meet Alain Prost and have him see bones sticking out of the legs of my race suit, I'd be very tempted to choose the first option. This is exceptionally cowardly of me, of course, but it exceptionally true, too.

I've seen every photo that exists of the crash scene, and God dammit, if I don't want to hold Pironi's head in my own hands and fill him full of morphine myself when I think of it.

Considering this accident took place not long after a decade that saw Roger Williamson burn to death because the entire universe apart from David Purley conspired to be despicably useless, in an accident that happened 18 years before I was born and yet floods my veins with anger hotter than the burning sands at Zandvoort just thinking about it now, Didi got off real light. But damn, if my heart doesn't bleed for him, 30 years after he set sail to a place where German asphalt could never hurt him again.

The real tragedy is of course the pregnant woman the great blue sea stole him from, but this is just how I feel about all of this. Watching Didier throw a car around on Youtube is a true privilege, and since I can never say that to him, I have to say it to all of you here reading this instead.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 01 November 2018 - 08:35.

[Andrew Hope]

3 for 3, why not. One for each win.

[E1pix]

The real tragedy is of course the pregnant woman the great blue sea stole him from, but this is just how I feel about all of this. Watching Didier throw a car around on Youtube is a true privilege, and since I can never say that to him, I have to say it to all of you here reading this instead.

I for one am glad you have. Heart is good.