51 replies to this topic

[R.W. Mackenzie]

Purely by accident I just saw on Wikipedia that not only was Phil Hill World Champion but Ritchie Ginther was 4th and Dan Gurney was 5th in the standings. They were only bettered by von Trips in 2nd and Moss in 3rd place. Having studied the history of Formula 1 for 50 years i was astounded that I had never caught on to the fact that three Americans finished in the top three spots in the 1961 World Championship.

 

One might have thought at the time that Americans were going to take F1 by storm. Not only these three but Masten Gregory was also a fairly regular competitor. And at the US Grand Prix at the Glen, the following were one-off entries:

 

Roger Penske

Hap Sharp

Jim Hall

Lioyd Ruby

Walt Hansgen

 

But this seems to have been the high water mark of American involvement in the World Championship. From the mid-sixties onward, there were never more than two or three even competing. and in latter decades it was truly an exception to even find an American in an F1 cockpit.

 

This is in spite of the large number of outstanding American drivers that have emerged in the decades since 1961. I can speculate as to the reasons for this but I am curious to hear what others may see as the reason that American racers have been such a rarity in Formula One.

 

Your thoughts?

 

[Tim Murray]

Wikipedia gets it wrong yet again - in fact Gurney was 4th and Ginther 5th in the 1961 championship. Gurney and Moss both scored 21 points, but Dan lost out on countback against Stirling’s two wins.

[Ray Bell]

When you look at it, Rod, those four drivers in F1 in 1961 had all been there as a result of a late-fifties influx...

What about we try to analyse what it was that brought so many quality American drivers to F1 in that late-fifties period (there was also Harry Schell, but he was a different case, and Carroll Shelby) and what circumstances changed to reduce the influx.

After that time, as serious entrants, we saw from America:

Jim Hall

Tim Mayer

Mario Andretti

Peter Revson

Mark Donohue

Danny Ongais

Eddie Cheever

Michael Andretti

And then there's none for several years...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
When you look at it, Rod.....

Whoops, it's not Rod!

Rod Mackenzie, of course, posts as 'Launchpad'.

[Roger Clark]

Phil Hill, Ginther and Gurney were all brought to European racing by Ferrari. That can’t be coincidence.

Edited by Roger Clark, 01 November 2018 - 08:53.

[Vitesse2]

Phil Hill, Ginther and Gurney were all brought to European racing by Ferrari. That can’t be coincidence.

I think the four letters NART might have something to do with that ...

[Roger Clark]

Of course.

[ensign14]

 

 

This is in spite of the large number of outstanding American drivers that have emerged in the decades since 1961. I can speculate as to the reasons for this but I am curious to hear what others may see as the reason that American racers have been such a rarity in Formula One.

 

 

I assume that they were making so much money in Champcar racing (compared to F1) it wasn't worth coming over. 

 

On top of that, the scrapping of dirt ovals from the series in 1971 meant that pavement pounders suddenly had the big title all to themselves, so even less incentive to eschew a mixed series.  If you didn't like the dirt, you at least had the thought of going to Europe to give it a go.  Removing the dirt meant that there was no need to do that - you could happily compete at every Champcar circuit in analogues to the stuff you grew up with. 

 

(The banning of rear-engine dirt cars was also NASCAR's gain - I get the impression that it's easier to go from sprint/midget to a stock car than to a rear-engine racecar.  Look at the winners in USAC/CART in the late seventies; they all went to rear-engine as the sport did, except Rick Mears and Tom Sneva, who pretty much started in rear-engines.  The Saldanas and Oliveros and Bigelows were bit-parters.)

 

[opplock]

I saw Danny Sullivan finish second in the last ever non-championship F1 race. He went from F1 with Tyrrell in 1983 to Indycar. Another who competed in Europe (F2) before racing Indycars was Bobby Rahal. 

[Bloggsworth]

I think some of it may have to do with lavatory paper, after all, the NFL ship hundreds of rolls of paper when they come to London    - I think that they believe that we still use a sponge on a stick as introduced by the Romans in 46AD. Insularity may also be a factor, remember Michael Andretti flew home after every race; had he moved over to the UK, spent more time testing, and at the factory discussing how he would like the car tailored to his needs, I'm sure he would have been far more successful.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 01 November 2018 - 14:08.

[Jim Thurman]

Ray, 

 

You've missed several from your list:

 

Bob Bondurant

Ronnie Bucknum

George Follmer

Brett Lunger

Tony Settember

Danny Sullivan

 

I don't know what your definition of "serious entrant" is, but the above made more starts than Ongais or Mayer, and did so in Europe. Even Chuck Daigh and Lance Reventlow spent a significant time in Europe, even though their championship race start total comes out to 3 and 2.

[Jim Thurman]

I think some of it may have to do with lavatory paper, after all, the NFL ship hundreds of rolls of paper when they come to London    - I think that they believe that we still use a sponge on a stick as introduced by the Romans in 46AD. Insularity may also be a factor, remember Michael Andretti flew home after every race; had he moved over to the UK, spent more time testing, and at the factory discussing how he would like the car tailored to his needs, I'm sure he would have been far more successful.

 

That's down to the NFL having an "official toilet paper of the NFL"    It's product placement, rather than some sort of pronouncement on Americans perceived perception of England.

 

As far as the second part of your surmising, would that be any different than the presumptions many Brits seem to have about the U.S., which sadly, are often displayed by some members here?    Like tossing out terms like "insularity" as a broad brush for "Americans." That didn't seem to a problem for the earlier generation(s), though CART racers would have been taking a pay cut to go to F1 (as ensign14 rightly points out).

 

I was not a Michael Andretti fan, but many state the decision on not moving to Europe was down to his wife at the time, not him.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 01 November 2018 - 17:06.

[Sterzo]

We've had a trickle of US drivers racing in the single seater "ladder" in the UK, of whom Scott Speed and Alexander Rossi made it into F1 in (comparatively) recent times. Meanwhile Conor Daly, Spencer Pigot and especially Josef Newgaden teased me with their spectacular performances, then went home.

 

Perhaps for those who are very good but aren't going to displace Alonso and Hamilton, the decision to divert into alternative series comes earlier for Japanese and American drivers, simply because they do have high level opportunities in their own countries.

 

I'm no expert on the divisions between NASCAR and Indycar (and I know there's some crossover), but it just might be that those brought up in NASCAR see single seater racing as just too different from what they want to do, and therefore don't venture onto the world stage.

[Jim Thurman]

I assume that they were making so much money in Champcar racing (compared to F1) it wasn't worth coming over. 

 

On top of that, the scrapping of dirt ovals from the series in 1971 meant that pavement pounders suddenly had the big title all to themselves, so even less incentive to eschew a mixed series.  If you didn't like the dirt, you at least had the thought of going to Europe to give it a go.  Removing the dirt meant that there was no need to do that - you could happily compete at every Champcar circuit in analogues to the stuff you grew up with. 

 

(The banning of rear-engine dirt cars was also NASCAR's gain - I get the impression that it's easier to go from sprint/midget to a stock car than to a rear-engine racecar.  Look at the winners in USAC/CART in the late seventies; they all went to rear-engine as the sport did, except Rick Mears and Tom Sneva, who pretty much started in rear-engines.  The Saldanas and Oliveros and Bigelows were bit-parters.)

 

The first part of this is spot on. Rick Mears tested well for Brabham, but was shocked to discover the money figure he was quoted was money he was expected to bring instead of his salary.

 

There were only a few dirt races on the schedule over the latter years, so it wasn't that big a deal. The championship point fund increased when the sponsorship came along with the dropping of the few dirt races (and road courses) from the championship.

 

Your last point is spot on save for an error. These weren't rear-engined dirt cars. The USAC ban on rear-engine sprint cars had nothing to do with dirt. These cars rarely ran dirt, they were pavement specialty cars, some of which were converted older Indianapolis machinery. This was the prime excuse reason given for their ban, that owners would have to field one car for dirt and another for pavement. Sneva definitely started in rear-engined short track cars. It's unlikely he had ever raced a front-engined car until after he got to the Midwest! Mears started in motorcycles, but yes, off road buggies were rear-engined, but on dirt. His stops at Formula Vee and Super Vee were key to his transition, often as overlooked as his stint racing a stock car on the local track.

[ensign14]

Yes, when it came to Mears, I was thinking of his Vee and F5000 stints as his single-seater start.  He didn't have the sort of oversteery dirt approach to get back out of his system.

[Macca]

Masten Gregory.........

[f1steveuk]

I think some of it may have to do with lavatory paper, after all, the NFL ship hundreds of rolls of paper when they come to London    - I think that they believe that we still use a sponge on a stick as introduced by the Romans in 46AD. Insularity may also be a factor, remember Michael Andretti flew home after every race; had he moved over to the UK, spent more time testing, and at the factory discussing how he would like the car tailored to his needs, I'm sure he would have been far more successful.

Michael might have done better if his wife hadn't interfered so much in what he was doing with McLaren. Her reputation within the team was about as bad as it could be. I've seen ex McLaren guys reduced to shivering wrecks, just at the mention of her, and they  ALL cite her as the reason Michael didn't/couldn't succeed in F1

[Dave Ware]

We've had a trickle of US drivers racing in the single seater "ladder" in the UK, of whom Scott Speed and Alexander Rossi made it into F1 in (comparatively) recent times. Meanwhile Conor Daly, Spencer Pigot and especially Josef Newgaden teased me with their spectacular performances, then went home.

 

Perhaps for those who are very good but aren't going to displace Alonso and Hamilton, the decision to divert into alternative series comes earlier for Japanese and American drivers, simply because they do have high level opportunities in their own countries.

 

I'm no expert on the divisions between NASCAR and Indycar (and I know there's some crossover), but it just might be that those brought up in NASCAR see single seater racing as just too different from what they want to do, and therefore don't venture onto the world stage.

 

I saw Dale Earnhart on TV 20+ years ago in which he described F1 as just a bunch of little bitty drivers driving little bitty cars round little bitty circuits.  I would suspect among NASCAR drivers he wasn't alone in that opinion.

[MCS]

Yes, when it came to Mears, I was thinking of his Vee and F5000 stints as his single-seater start.  He didn't have the sort of oversteery dirt approach to get back out of his system.

 

When and where were his F5000 stints?  I had no idea that he had ever been involved with F5000, so would love to know.  Thanks 

[jtremlett]

I would hazard a guess that the answer is to do with coverage of racing and particular television.  Once you get to television coverage of racing, what is being shown is US racing not least because F1 etc. is mostly in different time zones and in the middle of the night.  So prospective racers coming through after the fifties at least don't have any background to push them towards European racing.  Besides, as mentioned above, there was plenty of money in US domestic racing.  Mario Andretti, on the other hand, had grown up initially with European racing although even then he found it hard to leave the good things he had going in the States. 

[Dave Ware]

From what I've read and from interviews I've seen on TV, Sam Posey wanted to drive Grand Prix in the worst way.   There was a documentary about Posey and Hobbs at the '71 Mid-Ohio F5000 race, which I saw on TV at the time, in which he described his F5000 activities as a path to Grand Prix.  And somewhere along the line, he said or wrote that he wished he'd just purchased a Grand Prix ride in 1969 and gone in that direction instead of continuing to race in the states. 

 

He did drive in the U.S. Grands Prix in '71 and '72, for Surtees.  Retired in '71 and was 12th in '72.   He described one of those races - I forget which one - as his proudest achievement in the sport. 

[Dave Ware]

It's easy to forget that Peter Revson started his Grand Prix career in 1964, driving for Reg Parnell, I believe, with Revson paying for the ride.  That certainly tells us the Grand Prix was his goal as well. 

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Ray, 
 
You've missed several from your list:
 
Bob Bondurant
Ronnie Bucknum
George Follmer
Brett Lunger
Tony Settember
Danny Sullivan
 
I don't know what your definition of "serious entrant" is, but the above made more starts than Ongais or Mayer, and did so in Europe. Even Chuck Daigh and Lance Reventlow spent a significant time in Europe, even though their championship race start total comes out to 3 and 2.

Yes, I did miss Bondurant and Bucknum, I frankly don't recall Sullivan being out there, nor Follmer, nor Posey.

Lunger, and it's hard to say what's really contributing to a driver's attitude, seemed to be serious at spending money.

Maybe the list is much larger than I thought?

[JtP2]

following on from the Dale Earhardt comments. What does anyone think about Darryl Waltrip in F1?

[Sterzo]

Yes, I did miss Bondurant and Bucknum, I frankly don't recall Sullivan being out there, nor Follmer, nor Posey.

Lunger, and it's hard to say what's really contributing to a driver's attitude, seemed to be serious at spending money.

Maybe the list is much larger than I thought?

Simon Taylor wrote of Danny Sullivan: "Danny Sullivan, born and raised in Louisville, Kentucky, had his first race in a Formula Ford at Silverstone, and worked his way through F3 and F2 without ever racing in the US.  When the drives in Europe dried up he returned home, thinking his motor racing days were done."

 

There's a long list of US drivers who had a decent go at single seaters in Europe. Must rummage in the loft for old programmes, because the ancient brain only brings to mind a few not already mentioned: Richard Antinucci, Charlie Kimball, Cameron Das, Colton Herta...

[Jim Thurman]

I saw Dale Earnhart on TV 20+ years ago in which he described F1 as just a bunch of little bitty drivers driving little bitty cars round little bitty circuits.  I would suspect among NASCAR drivers he wasn't alone in that opinion.

 

You'd probably be surprised how many NASCAR drivers held/hold F1 drivers in high regard (it's far more common among the more recent era NASCAR drivers). While there have always been notable exceptions, it's fairly rare to find drivers of one discipline denigrating those involved in another. Now, some of the fans... 

[Dave Ware]

 

 

There's a long list of US drivers who had a decent go at single seaters in Europe. Must rummage in the loft for old programmes, because the ancient brain only brings to mind a few not already mentioned: Richard Antinucci, Charlie Kimball, Cameron Das, Colton Herta...

Which reminds me that Alex Gurney spent a year in F3.  I seem to recall that he didn't have the best engine.  Returned home but fortunately found success in Grand Am.  I read somewhere that while in Grand Am he mastered left-foot braking, and he said if he had learned it earlier he might have had a career in single-seaters. 

Ray, George Follmer was Oliver's teammate at Shadow in '73, the team's first year in F1. 

[D28]

Yes, I did miss Bondurant and Bucknum, I frankly don't recall Sullivan being out there, nor Follmer, nor Posey.

Lunger, and it's hard to say what's really contributing to a driver's attitude, seemed to be serious at spending money.

Maybe the list is much larger than I thought?

George Follmer spent the 1973 season with Shadow,  even got a podium at the Spanish GP  ( 5 pts total).   Posey contested USGP in 71 and 72.

A complete list would be a bit longer, counting Americans who had 1 or 2 outings like Roger Ward.

[Jim Thurman]

Yes, I did miss Bondurant and Bucknum, I frankly don't recall Sullivan being out there, nor Follmer, nor Posey.

Lunger, and it's hard to say what's really contributing to a driver's attitude, seemed to be serious at spending money.

Maybe the list is much larger than I thought?

 

I think between your list and my additions, we have the American drivers that made 3 or more championship GP starts outside of North America fairly well covered.

 

As Sterzo rightfully points out, there have several American drivers in British F1 or that headed off to Europe. That went on from the 50s on. Some didn't get too far, but they were there and they tried. I can't come up with all of them, but I can think of Herbert Mackay-Fraser, Roy Pike, Davy Jones, Paul Edwards and Jonathan Summerton, to name just a few more.

 

Despite coming from a wealthy family, Brett Lunger served in active duty in Vietnam, enjoyed racing, assisted in rescuing Niki Lauda, and by all accounts, is just a good, all-around bloke. 

[Updraught]

When and where were his F5000 stints?  I had no idea that he had ever been involved with F5000, so would love to know.  Thanks 

 

Rick drove Bill Simpson's F/5000 car in SCCA national races during the summer of 1976 (while also racing F/Vee). I believe Bill Simpson also had the "Berta", an Argentine-built F/5000, for Mears, but they could not get that car running properly. Gave up the "Berta" and went Indy Car racing, starting with the Eagle in the 1976 California 500, and moving to an M16 McLaren in 1977. The beginning of a great career!

[Ray Bell]

Mackay Fraser is one I definitely should have remembered from the fifties...

My thinking of 'serious' is more related to their intention with regard to success.

[Michael Ferner]

following on from the Dale Earhardt comments. What does anyone think about Darryl Waltrip in F1?

When was that? I don't recall it, not at all!


As for the OP question, there is this general division in racing, between the truly professional racing invented in the US, where independent drivers, owners and promoters went racing for their livelihood, and the mostly European tradition of road racing, where especially drivers used to come from an amateur background, apart from factory employees that is. This distinction pervades to this day, although the amateur element has largely disappeared, to be replaced by a pay-to-drive ladder system which then can lead to a lucrative professional employment in racing. Truly professional racing has only ever blossomed in the US, while "amateur" road racing is (and has always been) present on both sides of the Atlantic, if not very visible in the US during the time between the two wars.

All but one of the US drivers in F 1 (apart from one-off appearances) originally came from a road racing background, the one exception being Mario Andretti. That may account for the relative scarceness of top US drivers in F 1. You can make a very good living racing in the US, without going through the tribulations of paying your way up to F 1. A Sprint car driver in Pennsylvania, for instance, can make a lot more money than an also-ran in F 1, and he won't have to recover huge career investments to get there. If you want to know why there are so few US drivers in F 1, go and ask someone like Fred Rahmer or Lance Dewease, for example. If you can have a great career and a very good income close to home, why waste your time thinking about F 1?

[Vitesse2]

 

Despite coming from a wealthy family, Brett Lunger served in active duty in Vietnam, enjoyed racing, assisted in rescuing Niki Lauda, and by all accounts, is just a good, all-around bloke. 

He was very pleasantly surprised to be both recognised and asked for an autograph at Crystal Palace in 1972 ... he was with Hiroshi Kazato at the time; I may possibly be the only person in Britain who has Hiroshi Kazato's autograph!

[Sterzo]

Which reminds me that Alex Gurney spent a year in F3... 

Which reminds me that Derek Hill raced in Formula Palmer Audi in the UK (a sort of F4 equivalent) and went on to participate in F3000.

[DCapps]

Despite coming from a wealthy family, Brett Lunger served in active duty in Vietnam, enjoyed racing, assisted in rescuing Niki Lauda, and by all accounts, is just a good, all-around bloke. 

 

Lunger served as an officer in the U.S. Marine Corps in Viet-Nam at about the same time I was serving in another part of the country. At several points in the Seventies, Lunger and I had a few chats about that. As Jim states, a really good, nice guy.

[MCS]

I thought Brett Lunger was a great bloke and he clearly enjoyed his racing. He was never slow and, as remarked upon on here by many others, a decent, honest guy.

[MCS]

Rick drove Bill Simpson's F/5000 car in SCCA national races during the summer of 1976 (while also racing F/Vee). I believe Bill Simpson also had the "Berta", an Argentine-built F/5000, for Mears, but they could not get that car running properly. Gave up the "Berta" and went Indy Car racing, starting with the Eagle in the 1976 California 500, and moving to an M16 McLaren in 1977. The beginning of a great career!

 

Thanks Updraught.  So not really F5000/FA as we know it, with all due respect. Fantastic driver - wish he had driven in Formula One!

[ensign14]

Nobody yet has mentioned the only man to beat Michael Schumacher in F3000...

[Jim Thurman]

As far as drivers that raced in Europe in other formula, there also is Ross Cheever.

[Sterzo]

Yet more from the US who had a go at the single seater ladder in Europe: Brian Cunningham who was quick in British F3 in the nineties before going to CART, and how did we forget Bobby Rahal in F2 and Danica Patrick in Formula Ford?

[MCS]

But this is about Americans in Formula One, isn't it?   If not, then there were so many more who came over and tried their hand, some getting better breaks than others, perhaps obviously.

 

I can easily remember Tony Rouff (winner of the British GP Formula Three support race at Silverstone) and Ted Wentz and Gordon Smiley, who both started their British exploits in Formula Ford, the latter disappearing back to the States before re-appearing some years later to actually win an "F1" race - the last round of the 1979 Aurora AFX British F1 Championship!

[Jim Thurman]

But this is about Americans in Formula One, isn't it?   If not, then there were so many more who came over and tried their hand, some getting better breaks than others, perhaps obviously.

 

It was, originally, but the number of Americans that actually went to Europe in an effort to move up the ladder was worth mention in light of certain comment. Rouff, Wentz and Smiley, and Cunningham in an earlier post, are all good adds to that list.

 

I think we can safely rule out lavatory paper as a factor   

[Ray Bell]

But what about dunny doors?

They're certainly attractive...

[Tim Murray]

I was very impressed with Willy T. Ribbs when he raced in Formula Ford here in the UK before returning to bigger and better things in the States. He once wrote an indignant letter to Autosport berating them for regularly omitting the ‘T’ from his name in their race reports.

[MCS]

Ha ha - great!   Didn't know that, but he was a Motoring News fan in any case, because somebody interviewed him for a piece which he subsequently showed to his hero, Muhammad Ali when the boxing great was training for a fight in London running around Hyde Park...

[B Squared]

I saw Dale Earnhart on TV 20+ years ago in which he described F1 as just a bunch of little bitty drivers driving little bitty cars round little bitty circuits.  I would suspect among NASCAR drivers he wasn't alone in that opinion.

Never a big Earnhardt Sr. fan, and I don't recall your scenario, but I do remember this interview (around the one minute mark) on the day Senna died.

[B Squared]

What does anyone think about Darryl Waltrip in F1?

If I remember correctly, Waltrip was to run a Tyrrell in the early '80s as a demonstration or for fun. He opted out of turning a lap once he sat in the car and felt quite uncomfortable in an open wheel machine.

[rl1856]

A driver with talent can make as much or more money in the US than in Europe.   There are also cultural biases and prejudices (on both sides of the ocean).  The most recent high profile US driver to attempt to race in F1 was Michael Andretti....and we all know how that turned out.   The side effect is to have discouraged subsequent top US drivers from crossing over.   

 

Technology plays a role.   From the end of WWII until the mid 70's there was much technological crossover between Europe and the US.  Top sports cars and drivers regularly crossed the "pond" to compete in international races.    Rear engined cars revolutionized Indy racing, but within a few years, F1 designs were based in part on Indy car designs.   Is it any coincidence then that the peak of US participation in F1 coincided with this period ?   By the late 70's technology between US and F1 began to go in divergent directions, and the respective series become much more specialized.  Drivers were increasingly discouraged from racing in many different classes, so you were either in or out.  And compensation improved to the point were drivers did not have race anything to make a very comfortable living.

 

I think we still have the talent.   Tony Stewart and Jimmy Johnson could have been very successful in Europe had they decided to focus overseas instead of in the US.   Stewart would race anything, at any time and be immediately competitive.   He was probably the closest we have seen to Andretti, Gurney or Foyt in the last 20yrs.   

[Charlieman]

Why start at 1961? Whatever happened to Gordon Gordini driver, Robert O'Brien? 

 

Edited for bizarre meddling autocorrection correction.

Edited by Charlieman, 21 November 2018 - 13:03.

[Charlieman]

Mario Andretti, on the other hand, had grown up initially with European racing although even then he found it hard to leave the good things he had going in the States. 

 

I disbelieved this suggestion so I checked Mario's biog. Mario was a teenage observer of European motorsport. His family story makes his rise to top racing driver a very impressive one.

 

Rear engined cars revolutionized Indy racing, but within a few years, F1 designs were based in part on Indy car designs.   Is it any coincidence then that the peak of US participation in F1 coincided with this period ?

The Chaparral 2K was the first Indy car chassis to make me say "Wow" in a positive way. It was an Indy car designed on F1 ideas by a Brit, brilliantly engineered in the USA. The DFX engine was conceived outside Cosworth. Again Americans deserve recognition for their engineering and the initial idea. The Gurney Flap was designed for Indy cars, damned smart.

 

Compared to F1 cars of the 1970s, USAC and F5000 cars look less refined. They were designed for different types of racing. Circa 1973/74, the Ferrari F1 team was pretty useless; the cars were well engineered but "wrong". Ferrari put the situation right, and they didn't look to Indy cars for inspiration.