170 replies to this topic

[sopa]

For fun thought of this kind of discussion about history matters.

 

So, thus far 17 drivers have won one F1 WDC, no more and no less.

 

Usually you don't see any of them heading the lists of all-time greatest F1 drivers.

 

Despite that they were still fine drivers, who achieved the ultimate goal of winning the title. For once.

 

But which one of them would you regard as the most impressive driver in F1*? And why?

 

Discuss.

 

 

* Sometimes people ask if achievements in other series are included in this question, but I propose to analyze and compare purely F1 matters.

[BlackCat]

considered also Rindt and Andretti but voted for Hunt as a role model from my youth

[Metronazol]

Hard to look past Andretti really, though i'd have Mansell and Surtees heavily in that conversation too.

[l2k2]

To me the younger Rosberg makes to the top of this list. It was the perfectly shaped career, that is, to end it with a WDC against a teammate with several titles. Small stylistics mistake was not winning the last race...

[chr1s]

Andretti for sure and possibly Jones.

[f1paul]

I don't normally sit on the fence. But I will this time. 

 

 

 

Again, different eras and the way they won the championships make it hard to judge. 

[scheivlak]

Jochen of course.

[ensign14]

From an all round career perspective, Andretti.

 

From an F1 perspective, Mansell.  Should have been at least a double champ.

[nordschleife]

From an all round career perspective, Andretti.

 

From an F1 perspective, Mansell.  Should have been at least a double champ.

 

What he said.

[boillot]

I voted Mario Andretti, although he was probably not the best F1 driver with one title, but he was quick, versatile, won Indy 500 as well and had an incredibly long career.

I agree that Rindt and Mansell are both a good choice as well.

Edited by boillot, 10 November 2018 - 22:31.

[rog]

From the newer era it was Rosberg imho.

[messy]

Mansell for me, easily. Not to downplay the ability of any of the others, but Mansell won what, 31 races, stood up to all-time greats (sometimes as his team-mate), provided so much drama and excitement then went and won CART as a rookie too.

He was a strange character, but for me the best of the one-time champs.

[PlatenGlass]

I think Keke Rosberg was actually very impressive from 1982 to 1985, but his reputation has suffered from a poor 1986. A little bit like Raikkonen post-McLaren although in a much smaller time-frame. But from the 80s onwards, it's hard to see past Mansell considering how long he was a feature for and he was in the fight for four titles.

[Collombin]

Andretti had the best career CV, Rindt had the most talent, Mansell was the closest to winning a couple more titles.

Based on the exact question asked, I went with Rindt.

[Sterzo]

Great idea for a thread, no idea what the answer is. Thank you for torturing us, sopa. Part of the problem is knowing what "best" means.

 

Looking down the list, you can see pieces of the jigsaw puzzle missing from most of those careers, i.e. reasons why they maybe weren't multiple champions. Instinctively I'd say Andretti, Mansell and Surtees were those who could have won more. Andretti and Surtees didn't, mainly because they were doing other things. My definition of "best" would include being obsessively committed to being World Champion, so that would take a percentage point away from people who raced elsewhere instead.

 

Which leaves me with Mansell, who didn't win more mainly because he was up against Senna and Prost, who weren't in the business of giving away championships.

[Sterzo]

considered also Rindt and Andretti but voted for Hunt as a role model from my youth

Hope you enjoyed the drink, drugs and women, BlackCat.

[Afterburner]

[beachdrifter]

Lewis, before winning the second one! 

[BuddyHolly]

Hmmm.. this is a toughie.

after some thought I've given it to Rindt but it was soooo so close between him and Big John.

[RPM40]

I voted Rosberg, but its realistically likely one of the drivers before my time.

[Button4life]

How does Kimi have so many votes

[Fatgadget]

This one for the old foggies at TNF ?...==>..Runs!

[PLAYLIFE]

Jochen Rindt

[RacingGreen]

Voted for John Surtees who would have won more if he had tried to pursue the best cars but always seemed to be more interested in engineering projects instead such as Honda and then of course his own team.

 

Still there are some amazing drivers on that list and it's hard to pick just one:

Hunt - could have won more on talent but I always had feeling one was enough for him and he was happy enough with that,

Mario - so famous internationally that even after all this time he still doesn't need a last name - motor racing's equivalent of a supermodel !

Rindt - a life cut short tragically or would have won more,

Mansell - who came to within a puncture of winning another one and also showed his class in the USA at his first attempt

[noikeee]

Rindt hands down, though Hunt is underrated.

 

Andretti if this was a general motorsport question not just F1.

[MastaKink]

I'm going with JB simply because he could hang with the two best I've seen the most of. Not on their level on such a consistent basis but he could beat both on his day and has a win over each across a season on his resume. Pretty sweet title as well in his first proper competitive car and was on it from the get go. Above average to very good in all departments apart from qualifying perhaps.

[Atreiu]

This post has been heavily edited for clarity and concision:

Kimi, I guess. Mostly because he is the driver on the list who I think has the most raw speed and (admittedly unfullfilled) talent. But there are other worthy candidates.

It cannot be Mansell. He was clumsy and a choker. His spell against a disinterested and then concussion affected Piquet gave him a reputation he never deserved even though it was Piquet who kept it together and raised a title. For some reason, people do not consider how he was outscored by Rosberg, Piquet and Prost. Neither do they consider his long list of crashes and blunders. The FW14B deserves all the praise for the success in 92, Mansell just had to be competent enough to beat pre-retired Patrese. And he still threw wins away. But he had the right passport to assure employment in the grid and goodwill from the press.

Of course he ran way from Prost after 1992. Prost schooled him in 1990 and could do it again without breaking a sweat.

Edited by Atreiu, 17 November 2018 - 20:02.

[THEWALL]

Mansell came close to winning a couple more, yet his only WDC came with a car that was arguably the most dominant ever. Then again, almost winning against Piquet, Senna and Prost may even that out. Funny though how one WDC in a super dominant car is seen in a more positive light than 4 WDCs in not such a dominant car...

[Lights]

I've only seen the newest 4 drive, know quite a bit about the previous 2, but from Keke on I simply know too little to judge this. I'm also of the opinion that it's harder to compare era's than most think. Listening to Stewart talk about his days underlined for me how it has changed so much one could call it a different sport.

Of the newest 4, I'd say Rosberg, Button, Raikkonen, Villeneuve, in that order. But I didn't vote.

Surprised at all the Raikkonen votes compared to the posts he's been mentioned in here. Shy folk I guess, the Finns.

Edited by Lights, 11 November 2018 - 09:20.

[Veemax]

Easily Kimi. If had any luck in his career he wouldn't even be in this poll.

[RedBaron]

Who voted for Jacques? 

 

It's easily Rosberg, Raikkonen or Button.

 

In this order:

 

Raikkonen

Rosberg/Button

[sopa]

Personally torn between quite a few drivers. In the end voted for Surtees, only because at the time of voting he had a bit fewer votes than some others. 

 

Hard to choose between Surtees and Rindt. I think they were team-mates in Cooper and Surtees had a bit of an edge then? But obviously Rindt hadn't reached his prime yet. Which arrived a couple of seasons later, though obviously that didn't last long.

 

People's careers were different then and obviously with someone like Andretti you wonder, how much more he could have achieved with more full-time F1 commitment. But he did well with the time he had in the sport.

 

Obviously as mentioned by others, comparing eras is very difficult. Because fast forward Mansell is from a different era to these guys. And then further forward Raikkonen, Button and N.Rosberg are again from a different era. What these guys have in common is that they were all very good drivers in their own right, but a few drivers go into the history as greater than them from their respective eras. But if you like, you could give a point for Mansell in terms of longevity.

 

 

I think Keke Rosberg was actually very impressive from 1982 to 1985, but his reputation has suffered from a poor 1986. 

 

Interesting point. Looking at individual title-campaign seasons of these drivers, Keke's may well have been among the most impressive ones on the list.

 

Also wonder if drivers like Jones and Scheckter go a bit under the radar on the poll. Maybe not as spectacular as some others, but they still put in very good seasons on their heyday.

[Jovanotti]

Surprised at all the Raikkonen votes compared to the posts he's been mentioned in here. Shy folk I guess, the Finns.

Chances are you get shut down quickly around here if you dare to positively mention Kimi by all the people who started watching in the 2010's.

[as65p]

Chances are you get shut down quickly around here if you dare to positively mention Kimi by all the people who started watching in the 2010's.

 

Hm, do I now have to assume only watching since 2001 is the excuse of the Kimi voters for not chosing Andretti?

[SophieB]

The correct answer is, and always will be, Damon Hill.

[Jovanotti]

Hm, do I now have to assume only watching since 2001 is the excuse of the Kimi voters for not chosing Andretti?

Certainly plays a part, yes, but I certainly won't critisise anyone who votes for an older guy. I think the poll captures the standout drivers pretty well.

Edited by Jovanotti, 11 November 2018 - 09:21.

[Nonesuch]

Who's the man who rose to the occasion to beat both of F1's most successful drivers as their team-mate, those being Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton?

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 11 November 2018 - 09:29.

[Nonesuch]

How does Kimi have so many votes

 

If Räikkönen had never joined Alonso and Vettel after his impressive return to F1 with fake-Lotus, he'd be right up there marching away with the lead in this pole.

 

Räikkönen is one of the great drivers of F1 in the last 20 years, but one with a few serious weak spots, which tend to get exposed quite badly when up against folks like Alonso and Vettel.

 

However, since this is only about one-time champions, that doesn't really matter.

[PayasYouRace]

Such a tough vote because they are mostly top drivers. I think all of them could have been multiple champions. Andretti gets it because he was successful in so much else. You have to wonder how well he would have done if he had chosen to focus on F1 exclusively.

[P123]

Even before Alonso and Vettel, Kimi was struggling enough to get the better of Massa and had already been beaten over a season by DC and Heidfeld. There are some very impressive names on that list. I think Kimi leads simply due to the nature of this forum and there being more of his fans around, but I'd say JB and Rosberg had far more consistent performances than him over the seasons, so he's not even the best 1xWDC of his own era.

[Baddoer]

Easily, Rindt.

Man was on another planet.

[RECKLESS]

Easily Kimi. If had any luck in his career he wouldn't even be in this poll.

Agreed.

[Celloman]

Even before Alonso and Vettel, Kimi was struggling enough to get the better of Massa and had already been beaten over a season by DC and Heidfeld. There are some very impressive names on that list. I think Kimi leads simply due to the nature of this forum and there being more of his fans around, but I'd say JB and Rosberg had far more consistent performances than him over the seasons, so he's not even the best 1xWDC of his own era.

Kimi was as much beaten by DC in 2002 as Alonso was beaten by Trulli in 2004. In other words, both cases are erroneously reflected by statistics. The only reason DC finished ahead of Kimi in 2002 was reliability (4 vs 10 DNF's). Regarding 2001, Kimi only had 23 motor races of any kind under his belt, so that loss should be put to perspective as well. It's about as relevant or even less relevant than Rosberg losing to Webber in 2006.

[jcbc3]

Easily Mario. And it aint even close.

[noriaki]

It's a difficult question with at least 10 justifiable answers. I voted Andretti because he most resonates in my mind with the word 'best' but I can't argue with those rating Mansell or Surtees over him if they place more emphasis on GP racing career alone.

---

Now dont get me wrong but the problem I have with voting Rindt (or Rosberg, or Hawthorn, for that matter) is that his career was cut short, and even had Lotus not been experimenting that fateful day he would apparently have retired post title.

Now we cannot know how he would have done post-title - Jochen may well have out done Emmo, or then he might not have - but I would argue most drivers on the poll have only tarnished their reputation after winning their title: arguably only K Rosberg (still slightly unproven when he won it) and Jenson (stacked up well agaibst Hamilton and Alonso) have improved their general estimations after it.

To make the point - imagine how we would view them if Kimi retired after 2007, JV after 1997 or Scheckter after 79...

Edited by noriaki, 11 November 2018 - 10:10.

[DeKnyff]

Easily Mario. And it aint even close.

Agreed, Mario is the best, but Surtees is close.

[Lights]

Kimi was as much beaten by DC in 2002 as Alonso was beaten by Trulli in 2004. In other words, both cases are erroneously reflected by statistics. The only reason DC finished ahead of Kimi in 2002 was reliability (4 vs 10 DNF's). Regarding 2001, Kimi only had 23 motor races of any kind under his belt, so that loss should be put to perspective as well. It's about as relevant or even less relevant than Rosberg losing to Webber in 2006.

You have some good points there, but I still wouldn't know what to compare Kimi's 2014 and 2015 with. He got beaten by a measure that most drivers in this poll haven't been close to in their career, especially at that point in their career. I wouldn't know how to defend that and argue that Kimi is the best of this lot.

Edited by Lights, 11 November 2018 - 10:14.

[noriaki]

You have some good points there, but I still wouldn't know what to compare Kimi's 2014 and 2015 with. He got beaten by a measure that most drivers in this poll haven't been close to in their career, especially at that point in their career. I wouldn't know how to defend that and argue that Kimi is the best of this lot.

JB's 2001 and 2008?

Kimi and Jenson's careers have been almoat similar, just mirror images of each other. Both very sensitive to their car, and both had a fairly decent debut year, coming up fresh from junior formula and only narrowly losing out to a good German team mate. Then Jenson went on to have 7 years characterised by few high points but plenty of shockers for champion standards, but from '09 on, he had further 7 years with plenty of good/great campaigns and only few weak points.

Kimi had the exact reverse. Good/great 2002/2009 and the plenty of shockers and few highlights including 2012/2018.

[Trust]

Kimi Raikkonen. Do not see what to discuss here.

[sopa]

Now dont get me wrong but the problem I have with voting Rindt (or Rosberg, or Hawthorn, for that matter) is that his career was cut short, and even had Lotus not been experimenting that fateful day he would apparently have retired post title.

Now we cannot know how he would have done post-title - Jochen may well have out done Emmo, or then he might not have - but I would argue most drivers on the poll have only tarnished their reputation after winning their title: arguably only K Rosberg (still slightly unproven when he won it) and Jenson (stacked up well agaibst Hamilton and Alonso) have improved their general estimations after it.

To make the point - imagine how we would view them if Kimi retired after 2007, JV after 1997 or Scheckter after 79...

 

It's a good point. I think Rindt gets the mentions as the "most talented", because he is viewed as genuinely as one of the very best of 1969-1970 for trashing Hill in 1969 and winning loads of races in 1970.

 

However, if you think that had Raikkonen left F1 after 2005, he would be regarded as the greatest lost talent of all time.

 

This is what makes rating particularly old times very challenging due to its nature. For many drivers the material to work with is limited. There are only a handful of peak seasons to look at.

 

I think with this insufficient data one can argue one way or another. But that's what makes the debate fascinating too!