79 replies to this topic

[BalanceUT]

The Ocon vs Verstappen incident has been fascinating for me to watch people argue over. 

 

How about this idea (I expect to be eviscerated for this, but here goes): 

 

Rule: Once a backmarker has been passed by the top three cars in the race and they do not un-lap within 1 lap they are required to withdraw and park the car.

 

What this does is legitimatize a backmarker fighting for position, they have a right to not be forced out of the race. A leader has to treat their pass of a backmarker the same as trying to gain from P2 to P1, respecting the same allowance of space that would happen in that situation. 

 

I see a few clear benefits for racing on this:

1) The backmarkers slowly will be cleared from the field, making a less congested track.

2) The clearing the field will mostly benefit P4 and lower cars, which means they can challenge higher up more effectively, possibly better overall racing. 

3) Lower level teams will put fewer miles on their engines and chassis, meaning they can suffer fewer grid penalties and have fresher engines and drive trains, making for a more competitive field in future races.

 

[hayabusasc]

No.

 

So we want a race like Mexico this year where under your rule, all bar 4 or 5 cars are eliminated?

Edited by hayabusasc, 11 November 2018 - 18:56.

[Anja]

Why stop at this half-measure? Let's just have 6 cars in the race and not bother with the others. They just get in the way. 

Edited by Anja, 11 November 2018 - 18:57.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Lol.

[jee]

No

 

Ban blue flags, mirrors and team radio and let them race the leaders 

[Baddoer]

Here is another idea - make a 24 clones of Kevin Magnussen.

[Radoye]

Why stop at this half-measure? Let's just have 6 cars in the race and not bother with the others. They just get in the way. 

 

Six is too many. Let's have just HAM and VET. Everyone else is a cucumber anyway. Or a monkey.

[Muppetmad]

I think the reaction to this incident reveals the stark contrast in attitudes to blue flags between Formula 1 and other series. If this had been IndyCar, to take only one example, it would likely have been judged a racing incident: the lapped car has a right to fight for position and the leading car still has to give them room as if they were a driver on the lead lap.

[BalanceUT]

No.

 

So we want a race like Mexico this year where under your rule, all bar 4 or 5 cars are eliminated?

Would it be that way? If you've eliminated a few cars, the dynamics on the track are changing. Cars trail further and further behind somewhat because of the raw limitations of space. With fewer cars, the congestion is lowered and trailing cars can be closer to the front. 

[BalanceUT]

I think the reaction to this incident reveals the stark contrast in attitudes to blue flags between Formula 1 and other series. If this had been IndyCar, to take only one example, it would likely have been judged a racing incident: the lapped car has a right to fight for position and the leading car still has to give them room as if they were a driver on the lead lap.

To a certain extent, IMO, the entire blue flags concept in F1 is a example of 'elites should be bowed to'. It reeks of: "Hey Pleb! When your betters get close to you, get out of their way!"

[Radoye]

I think the reaction to this incident reveals the stark contrast in attitudes to blue flags between Formula 1 and other series. If this had been IndyCar, to take only one example, it would likely have been judged a racing incident: the lapped car has a right to fight for position and the leading car still has to give them room as if they were a driver on the lead lap.

 

Generally in IndyCar people race each other with much more respect, being lapped or not. There are no reactive movements, chopping, blocking, weaving under braking etc, which seems to be all the rage in F1. In return, the blue flags are advisory, the driver being lapped is not required to jump out of the way and let the leaders pass.

 

Which in the end makes for much better racing in IndyCar, even though F1 has undoubtedly superior cars and arguably better drivers (at least the top 4-5).

[BalanceUT]

Generally in IndyCar people race each other with much more respect, being lapped or not. There are no reactive movements, chopping, blocking, weaving under braking etc, which seems to be all the rage in F1. In return, the blue flags are advisory, the driver being lapped is not required to jump out of the way and let the leaders pass.

 

Which in the end makes for much better racing in IndyCar, even though F1 has undoubtedly superior cars and arguably better drivers (at least the top 4-5).

Weren't several drivers under investigation for failing to yield to blue flags? That sounds like it's codified as rule, not as merely advisory. 

[Muppetmad]

To a certain extent, IMO, the entire blue flags concept in F1 is a example of 'elites should be bowed to'. It reeks of: "Hey Pleb! When your betters get close to you, get out of their way!"

 

 

Generally in IndyCar people race each other with much more respect, being lapped or not. There are no reactive movements, chopping, blocking, weaving under braking etc, which seems to be all the rage in F1. In return, the blue flags are advisory, the driver being lapped is not required to jump out of the way and let the leaders pass.

 

Which in the end makes for much better racing in IndyCar, even though F1 has undoubtedly superior cars and arguably better drivers (at least the top 4-5).

 

I agree with you both; it's perhaps why I'm viewing this incident so differently to others. Christian Horner's indignant questioning of why Ocon deigned to try to overtake Verstappen in the first place strikes me as a question posed entirely incorrectly: the question should be why shouldn't Ocon try to overtake Verstappen if he's genuinely faster at that moment?

 

I've long wished to see F1's attitude and approach to blue flags shift towards an IndyCar or WEC approach. If the leader deserves to win, they should be able to manage the traffic properly (and that's not specifically a comment on Verstappen, but more abstractly).

[Anja]

I think the reaction to this incident reveals the stark contrast in attitudes to blue flags between Formula 1 and other series. If this had been IndyCar, to take only one example, it would likely have been judged a racing incident: the lapped car has a right to fight for position and the leading car still has to give them room as if they were a driver on the lead lap.

 

And that's the way it should be everywhere.

 

- More demanding of the drivers - they're supposed to be the best, can't they lap a slower car without it just getting out of the way?

- Better for "the show" - more variables to throw in the fight

- Easier for the stewards to judge - treating it just like any fight for position would eliminate another subjective area in the rules, of which we should have as few as possible

 

I see no downsides. 

Edited by Anja, 11 November 2018 - 19:35.

[Radoye]

Christian Horner's indignant questioning of why Ocon deigned to try to overtake Verstappen in the first place strikes me as a question posed entirely incorrectly: the question should be why shouldn't Ocon try to overtake Verstappen if he's genuinely faster at that moment?

 

Horner is a jerk, that's no news, and Ocon indeed had every right to go and try unlap himself. But that's one thing, crashing the leader out is quite another. Ocon deserves all the flak he's getting at this time.

 

And i write this as someone who doesn't particularly like Max and his racing style.

[PayasYouRace]

I have no problem with drivers unlapping themselves at any point in the race. I have and will defend those who do. But, they must do it safely, cleanly and making it clear that's what they're doing because they are not battling for position.

 

The OP is clearly an overreaction to this evening's events.

[Muppetmad]

I have no problem with drivers unlapping themselves at any point in the race. I have and will defend those who do. But, they must do it safely, cleanly and making it clear that's what they're doing because they are not battling for position.

 

The OP is clearly an overreaction to this evening's events.

In the Ocon/Verstappen case, I don't see what more Ocon could have done to signal his intention: he was ahead of Verstappen at one point in turn 1, so Verstappen clearly knew Ocon was there and trying to overtake him. Ocon was still alongside to the extent that he deserved room into turn 2. That the move was ultimately neither safe nor clean could easily be ascribed to Verstappen not giving room.

 

I think the issue where the difference of opinion lies is whether the lapped driver has a special duty of care to the leading driver. I don't think they do. I'd suggest (and I don't think the rules say differently - although I'm happy to be corrected) that the same standards are expected from the lapped driver and the leading driver. Since Ocon wasn't being shown the blue flag, I view this as any normal battle on track - and it looks like a racing incident to me.

[BalanceUT]

I agree with you both; it's perhaps why I'm viewing this incident so differently to others. Christian Horner's indignant questioning of why Ocon deigned to try to overtake Verstappen in the first place strikes me as a question posed entirely incorrectly: the question should be why shouldn't Ocon try to overtake Verstappen if he's genuinely faster at that moment?

 

I've long wished to see F1's attitude and approach to blue flags shift towards an IndyCar or WEC approach. If the leader deserves to win, they should be able to manage the traffic properly (and that's not specifically a comment on Verstappen, but more abstractly).

Up until about a decade ago, I played competitive Bridge (card game).  I'd occasionally hear higher level players complain about novices' "randomness" hurting their scores. That is to say, they would be complaining that a lower level player didn't make a play that would be expected from a higher level player. The high level player would have planned their play approach to the hand with an expectation of what the opponents would do, what a high level player would do. When the opponents didn't play as expected, things wouldn't turn out the same. If they'd known the low level player was going to play "irrationally" (or, as some would arrogantly put it, "idiotically") they would have scored even better, but it was too late to get that score by that point in the play of the hand. They acted huffy about having had the bad luck to play that hand against those 'random rookies'. 

 

I always laughed at this: I'd think: If you are so good, can't you plan for that possibility? Important to note: I only heard this from good to very good players. I never heard it from true world caliber players (I met several both at the table and in competitions I was helping manage). They were invariably gracious no matter the outcome. 

 

If these leaders are so good they shouldn't need the help of blue flags. 

[f1paul]

OP - you say you see a few clear benefits.

 

Do you see the multiple disadvantages? 

[BalanceUT]

OP - you say you see a few clear benefits.

 

Do you see the multiple disadvantages? 

Everything is about tradeoffs, including the status quo. Life is about deciding what downsides you can live with compared to the advantages you obtain. 

[f1paul]

Everything is about tradeoffs, including the status quo. Life is about deciding what downsides you can live with compared to the advantages you obtain. 

But you will have situations where there are 6 cars left in the race which is not good at all for the sponsors, the fans, the teams and the drivers themselves. 

 

The midfield has some great fights, do you really want to get rid of that by having them drop out in the middle of the race?

 

What's the point of doing all the practice sessions, knowing you will probably do just half the race.

 

It's a bit of a silly idea IMO. 

[Victor]

When I was a kid playing with my Dinky Toys cars we used that rule. We did it because it would become very confusing to have lapped cars in the middle of the front row cars.

I do not see that rule making any sense in the real world.

[pdac]

How about everyone just racing for position and back markers can defend against being overtaken by leaders as well as try to unlap themselves once they have been.

[HP]

If someone is faster at any given point in the race, he should be entitled to overtake with due diligence. Period.
 
If that's not clear why, then the FIA needs to ask themselves a few question in these circumstances. If Ocon himself had been battling with another driver for immediate position and being held up by the race leader would endanger his position, how should the rules handle this? Make it even more juicy and think about it this way. What if a driver is in a championship deciding ( edited: winning) race, and desperately needs to unlap himself to win the championship?
 
It's the same if Hamilton suddenly found speed, and attempted to pass VES. Then VES closing the door would be viewed in a different light. IMO it cannot be that in a similar situation a potential penalty is on another driver, just because of their relative position in the race. If it is OK to attempt a pass for the lead, then it is legitimate to unlap oneself too.
 
So IMO the rules need a simplification. Not more rules to handle all the speciific situations.  IMO every rule that sees additions to clarify it, is a bad written rule in first place.

Edited by HP, 11 November 2018 - 22:14.

[cheekybru]

Lmao 😂😂😂

[cheekybru]

Blue flags should be dropped that's all

[loki]

Here is another idea - make a 24 clones of Kevin Magnussen.

The one we got is able to do enough damage...

[loki]

Would it be that way? If you've eliminated a few cars, the dynamics on the track are changing. Cars trail further and further behind somewhat because of the raw limitations of space. With fewer cars, the congestion is lowered and trailing cars can be closer to the front. 

The race pace gap can be 1-2 secs a lap or more.  That means in 30-60 laps on most tracks cars will start getting lapped.  These are the supposed "best drivers in the world" ™. If they can't deal with lapped traffic and making good decisions then they should stick to autocross or video games.  Ocon made a low percentage move and Verstappen wasn't thinking big picture enough to avoid him.  The penalty was fitting though for Ocon, it was a total dive bomb.

[warp]

Leave the system as is. Nothing wrong with it. Ocon made a bad move this time.

[l2k2]

The race pace gap can be 1-2 secs a lap or more. That means in 30-60 laps on most tracks cars will start getting lapped. These are the supposed "best drivers in the world" ™. If they can't deal with lapped traffic and making good decisions then they should stick to autocross or video games. Ocon made a low percentage move and Verstappen wasn't thinking big picture enough to avoid him. The penalty was fitting though for Ocon, it was a total dive bomb.

A total divebomb, you say? I have seen multiple similar passes in the T1–3 complex. Had they not hit, Ocon would likely have had much better exit speed out of T3 (and made the move stick well before T4).

In tany case, I think that the stop-and-go is ridiculously hard penalty for what happened. Even if it was 100% on Ocon, such “minor” hits have yielded reprimands, 5 s, and 10 s penalties earlier this year (a broad range, which we already considered too inconsistent in the forums). Now they went for the “nuclear option” and landed the perpetrator the full 30 s penalty... Full two steps more than the harshest comparable situation in a few years.

[kumo7]

ordering a lapped car to retire, that wold make a race very boring, so it is no go.

 

Abolishing the blue flag, that is a possibility. We will see more hampering front runner when ever it passes the back maker and there fore there will be a cue behind them and ...

[timmy bolt]

Abolishing blue flags would cause more issues than benefits.

Obvious ones, in races like Monza RB would have a much harder time than fer Merc.
In races like monica there would be massive bottlenecks.
In races like Spain RB would be much stronger (they can follow cars much better than the Merc)
Associated team drivers can slow one car down much more and let their associated team drivers through.

Etc

[ernestomodena]

Or we could do it the other way around and make it a tagit competition, If you are outside the top 5 you get a championship point for every top 5 driver you hit. It gives even the williams a change to score points. Paydrivers would be good contenders as well. Teams will line up for Malodonado to come back.

 

It will spice up the racing as well. If you hit him slitly on the rear you could take a leader out and be up there in the top 5 as well. The top 5 drivers could use there mirrors a lot more and down play there speed so the back markers are not in there window the field would be much closer as well.

 

Why wait for 2021 to impliment it, if all teams agree we could do it in 2019.

Edited by ernestomodena, 12 November 2018 - 13:36.

[Roadhouse]

Abolishing blue flags would turn both MB and Ferrari into 6 car teams, and Red bull and Renault into 4 car teams.

Mercedes already tent to sacrifice 1 car, imagine if they could use 5 cars as road blocks.

[Bartonz20let]

How about everyone just racing for position and back markers can defend against being overtaken by leaders as well as try to unlap themselves once they have been.

Because the satellite teams FI, Sauber etc will only fight the teams they are instructed to fight by their suppliers.

Blue flags are fine, back markers are so slow that they should have to get out the way.

On the incident, unfortunately this was another big error from Max, totally unnecessary considering what it cost him regardless of who was at fault.

[Bartonz20let]

If these leaders are so good they shouldn't need the help of blue flags.

Misses the point entirely.

[Sterzo]

Balance, you have come up with a solution to a problem we don't have, and created a problem we don't want. Are you Bernie Ecclestone?

[Jbleroi]

Without blue flags “Sister” teams will become roadblocks for other manufacturers and they will let the big brother pass by easily.. totally unfair and you already saw it yday how easy the mercs lapped the stroll force and the big bulls the little bulls

Edited by Jbleroi, 12 November 2018 - 14:49.

[Andrew Hope]

"If the leaders are so good they shouldn't need blue flags".

The leaders are exactly that good, which is why they need blue flags. You shouldn't have to fight to pass somebody six times because your team got it right and they didn't.

[Dolph]

Here is another idea - make a 24 clones of Kevin Magnussen.

 

What are you gonna do with the original then? Keep him as a source for spare copies as you're gonna need those?

[MastaKink]

Any video of why Stoff and Alonso got their penalty points for ignoring the blue flags?

[SCUDmissile]

Another problem that would be solved if only the cars could follow eachother

[w1Y]

How about instead of blie flags you have a bkue flag area. I.e the home straight any lapped car must allow a driver to pass but only one.

So one lap the leader would get the blue flag and the next lap the 2nd car coming through would get it. Unless of course they legitimately pass them elsewhere on track.

My only concerm is teams using their partner teams to game it. I.e TR allow RB at turn 1 and then purposely hold up a merc until the blue flag zone

[MatsNorway]

I have no problems with Ocon doing that. It was kinda obvious for Max to see him and conclude that he wanted to unlap himself. Max could easily have given him space but choose to drive like an immature brat. Watch any tin top series or formula ford etc. and they give each other more space than that.

Edited by MatsNorway, 12 November 2018 - 21:14.

[LBDN]

Get rid of blue flags

[baddog]

No if a back-marker is faster they should be allowed to unlap themselves. If they are genuinely faster the leading car should allow them to do so in the same way a lapped car has to allow a lapping car past.

 

It is in fact simple logic, the purpose of the rules is to try to mean the unfortunate lapping nature of a closed short circuit does not have an effect on the race. This should work both ways really. You are not supposed to interfere with someone who you are not racing against.

 

Of course in reality this is not attainable, but effectively banning unlapping is grossly unfair.

[HeadFirst]

Abolishing blue flags would turn both MB and Ferrari into 6 car teams, and Red bull and Renault into 4 car teams.

Mercedes already tent to sacrifice 1 car, imagine if they could use 5 cars as road blocks.

 

The abolition of blue flags, does not mean that blocking would be permitted. Perhaps the rules should include how, and where you can defend, not who can fight for position.

[mclarensmps]

Nobody is going to sponsor a car that gets parked after half the race

[BalanceUT]

But you will have situations where there are 6 cars left in the race which is not good at all for the sponsors, the fans, the teams and the drivers themselves. 

 

The midfield has some great fights, do you really want to get rid of that by having them drop out in the middle of the race?

 

What's the point of doing all the practice sessions, knowing you will probably do just half the race.

 

It's a bit of a silly idea IMO. 

There could be a limit, also, easy enough to implement. Something like no more than half the starting grid can be eliminated in this manner. (Love that people call things problems and dismiss rather than thinking creatively on how to make something work.)

[baddog]

There could be a limit, also, easy enough to implement. Something like no more than half the starting grid can be eliminated in this manner. (Love that people call things problems and dismiss rather than thinking creatively on how to make something work.)

 

People think the entire idea is both bad on its merits and impossible to implement in a sport which goes to HUGE lengths to ensure cars are able to continue racing as often as possible.