385 replies to this topic

[theflyingwheel]

According to this article

https://www.racefans...ungary-in-2007/

And according to the BBC Alonso demanded McLaren in a meeting after he recieved a penalty in the 2007 Hungarian Gp that they deliverate make Lewis run out of fuel.

Personally if this is the case im so glad Alonso is finally out of F1.

[Ben1445]

_{Can see this thread going badly but..} 

 

Should probably be noted of the entire context from the article, including his sincere apology and it's acceptance by Ron Dennis. 

 

There's a lot more to the BBC article series on Alonso than that - It's actually very good overall. I feel like it's well balanced and tells a clear story. 

 

 

It backs up my theory that, at the root of McLaren in 2007 was Ron Dennis biting off more than he could chew trying to handle a reigning champion finally feeling like he'd achieved his life's dream against a young, fast talent thinking the very same thing......  then completely mismanaged the hell out of it. 

Edited by Ben1445, 20 November 2018 - 19:40.

[boillot]

Pity the didn't do it.

[rodlamas]

This could be a bunch of fake news. But the same time I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was true.

[noikeee]

It backs up my theory that, at the root of McLaren in 2007 was Ron Dennis biting off more than he could chew trying to handle a reigning champion finally feeling like he'd achieved his life's dream against a young, fast talent thinking the very same thing......  then completely mismanaged the hell out of it. 

 

Have thought the same from the very beginning. Ron tried too hard to be "fair" and to appease both drivers and instead only antagonized both of them until it cracked from Alonso's side.

[Ben1445]

Have thought the same from the very beginning. Ron tried too hard to be "fair" and to appease both drivers and instead only antagonized both of them until it cracked from Alonso's side.

To be fair, Hungary was by a large part kicked off by Hamilton refusing to adhere to the agreed to team strategy. But again, that does track back to Dennis’ mismanagement and doesn’t excuse Alonso’s response.

[Nonesuch]

The BBC claims: "Alonso decided to play his hand. With his manager Luis Garcia Abad also in attendance, he had a meeting with Dennis a few hours before the race. (...) But what exactly he asked them to do has previously been known only by a handful of privileged insiders. Alonso insisted that McLaren make Hamilton run out of fuel in the race."

 

The BBC then suggests Dennis "called in Martin Whitmarsh".

 

If Whitmarsh wasn't even there, who are all these - plural (!) - insiders who've been mucking around keeping this a super-secret until three days before Alonso's last F1 race?

 

Presumably not Fernando Alonso, Ron Dennis, or Luis Garcia Abad.

 

Yeah... I don't know. Probably better to wait for the biography in 10 or so years.

[Andrew Hope]

They're both tools.

That's why I listen to the cars instead.

[TomNokoe]

Mark Hughes also said as much a few months ago:

But when the rookie showed himself to be of much the same calibre and fully capable of fighting Alonso head-to-head for the championship, Dennis was in an awkward position. And refused to call Lewis Hamilton off. So Hungary 2007 happened: ‘fuel burn-off gate’ (Hamilton) followed in retribution by ‘pitlane gate’ (Alonso), followed by ‘swivel-gate’ (Hamilton) and ‘FIA laptop threat’ (Alonso), the latter as a threat to Dennis if he didn’t find a way of de-railing Hamilton’s title campaign and concentrate on his instead. He even offered some helpful hints as to how Dennis might do it – like run him out of fuel somewhere.

https://www.motorspo...nate-reputation

[SCUDmissile]

Hamilton deserved it, screwed Alonso by not letting him past, and then gets him a penalty through lobbying from his entourage.

Man, this does remind me how petulant they both were, Alonso ended up being proven right, he'd have won both 2007 and 2008 had they back him.

[Nemo1965]

The interesting thing about Ron Dennis is that I think he kind of... falls in and out of love with his drivers.

 

He wanted Niki Lauda in 1981, 1982, desperately... because he thought the Austrian was the only one who could merge the F1-cars of the future (carbon-fibre, turbo). He got Lauda. And althought Lauda was outperformed in 1982 by Watson, Niki was still number one... and Watson outsmarted himself with the contract negotiations at the end of 1983... because he thought all teams were fixed. 

 

Then Prost came to McLaren. Dennis 'fell' for Prost. To that extent that Lauda wrote later he was technically disadvantaged by McLaren in 1984 and not taken seriously any more in 1985 (perhaps rightfully so, because Lauda was on the way to a new retirement). Lauda wrote later something like: 'Prost was the best driver on the market and ridiculously cheap that year. So of course Alain became Dennis 'Darling' ('Liebling').' 

 

Then Senna came to McLaren - initially on the insistence of Alain Prost. Senna was the new kid in town, Prost left. And when Senna was doing his Clash-song in 1993, Dennis fell for another driver, Mika Hakkinen. There is an interesting clip of the 1993 season, where Mika and Ron Dennis drive to the track. And Mika makes a joke with the parking intendant. And then Dennis says to the camera:  'We've got to watch out for this kid.' The look in his eyes is like a disciple meeting his new guru. Or a guru discovering a new disciple.

 

In my view, in that respect 2007 was a repeat. Dennis got the best driver he wanted... and then suddenly was blessed with the new star of F1. Oh the agony of choice... 

[Marklar]

I always thought this was already known lol
 

 

 

‘fuel burn-off gate’ (Hamilton) followed in retribution by ‘pitlane gate’ (Alonso), followed by ‘swivel-gate’ (Hamilton) and ‘FIA laptop threat’ (Alonso)

 

Gosh, I miss those times.

[JtP2]

Read the article on the BBC site. And I thought Nigel Mansell lugged the most baggage in his head, well until now.

[PlatenGlass]

Hamilton deserved it, screwed Alonso by not letting him past, and then gets him a penalty through lobbying from his entourage.

I don't think it's as simple as that though. As got mentioned on a recent thread, Hamilton was racing the fuel burn phase to get the extra lap, as Alonso was scheduled to do, so Alonso could have just stayed with him until they were supposed to actually make the pitstop to see if he let him through at any time. He didn't need to let Alonso through straight away - it could have happened at any point before the pitstop. But I think Alonso's temper got the better of him and he decided instead to back off and plot his revenge before it was even necessary. Obviously Hamilton *should* have let him through straight away, but it didn't make any material difference that he didn't.

[ANF]

Read the article on the BBC site. And I thought Nigel Mansell lugged the most baggage in his head, well until now.

LINK: https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/46226823

[Ben1445]

I don't think it's as simple as that though. As got mentioned on a recent thread, Hamilton was racing the fuel burn phase to get the extra lap, as Alonso was scheduled to do, so Alonso could have just stayed with him until they were supposed to actually make the pitstop to see if he let him through at any time. He didn't need to let Alonso through straight away - it could have happened at any point before the pitstop. But I think Alonso's temper got the better of him and he decided instead to back off and plot his revenge before it was even necessary. Obviously Hamilton *should* have let him through straight away, but it didn't make any material difference that he didn't.

I kind of disagree. His actions were the provoking factor and so shouldn't be discounted - he should have moved when the team requested yet he did not, so there was some method to whatever he was doing. May not have been as bad as Alonso that day, but he still plated his part in the McLaren fallout. His actions bust be considered for what they are, independent of what other people did. 

[Boxerevo]

The only thing that really matters came 1 year late.

 

My suspicious that He knew about Crashgate in Singapore.

It will never be proved, but i always on the opinion that he is too smart and craft to not know.

He is a Briatore's "kid" like Schumacher.

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2018 - 22:55.

[sabjit]

Man, this does remind me how petulant they both were, Alonso ended up being proven right, he'd have won both 2007 and 2008 had they back him.

 

They would have achieved the 2007 and 2008 WDCs had they chosen to back Hamilton. Hamilton led Alonso for most of the season except at the very beginning and ended up beating him. Surely if they were going to pick a horse, the Alonso had to play no. 2?

 

I'm a bit saddened by your claim Hamilton deserved to be sabotaged, considering Alonso had already sabotaged his qualifying.

[Pimpwerx]

It was a long time ago, and Alonso apparently apologized and chalked it up to the heat of the moment. I would like to think he's mellowed considerably since then, and has gained new perspective. In fairness, Lewis was threatening to shatter his legacy. I think he was really in a bad place.

[Boxerevo]

They would have achieved the 2007 and 2008 WDCs had they chosen to back Hamilton. Hamilton led Alonso for most of the season except at the very beginning and ended up beating him. Surely if they were going to pick a horse, the Alonso had to play no. 2?

 

I'm a bit saddened by your claim Hamilton deserved to be sabotaged, considering Alonso had already sabotaged his qualifying.

That was easy.

Or you contract Alonso or Hamilton. In the end of the day, i believe Lewis should be grateful because he got a shot already and Alonso was already 2 times wdc.

 

If i was Ron Dennis, i would get Alonso on and wrap the 2007 and 2008's title.

I would push Lewis to other team. Maybe they didn't knew how good he really was and the "problem" it would cause.

 

The two together would end in tears anyway. 

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2018 - 23:03.

[Vielleicht]

It's regretful is how divided and hostile this issue still makes us. And I'm guilty of that too, being a massive Alonso fan at the time it completely entrenched me as anti-Hamilton for years afterwards and occasionally that still surfaces.

 

For me, it seems like those involved are mostly on good terms and have respect for each other these days, so I take comfort in that. I think we can aspire to follow that example.

[midgrid]

It somehow typifies Alonso's career that this thread and his farewell thread elsewhere in the forum are active at the same time.

[MastaKink]

According to this article

https://www.racefans...ungary-in-2007/

And according to the BBC Alonso demanded McLaren in a meeting after he recieved a penalty in the 2007 Hungarian Gp that they deliverate make Lewis run out of fuel.

Personally if this is the case im so glad Alonso is finally out of F1.

 

....and then tried to take it back half an hour later.

 

World's worst blackmail attempt when you factor in Mosely already knew anyway. 

[P123]

Nothing new, but apparently it takes Fernando 30mins to simmer down.

[Fatgadget]

That was easy.

Or you contract Alonso or Hamilton. In the end of the day, i believe Lewis should be grateful because he got a shot already and Alonso was already 2 times wdc.

 

If i was Ron Dennis, i would get Alonso on and wrap the 2007 and 2008's title.

I would push Lewis to other team. Maybe they didn't knew how good he really was and the "problem" it would cause.

 

The two together would end in tears anyway. 

Good job you are not eh! 2007 was epic in the grand scheme of things.And considering how the respective drivers paths have panned out to this day. A script for a movie with all the twists and turns right there!

[P123]

Good job you are not eh! 2007 was epic in the grand scheme of things.And considering how the respective drivers paths have panned out to this day. A script for a movie with all the twists and turns right there!

Yeah, 2007 was brilliant... and I think Dennis gets unfairly kicked for it. He was definitely different to Briatore, so a bit of a culture shock for Alonso, and how do you deal with two drivers trying to find any advantage to get one over on the other? I'm sure with hindsight they'd all have done a few things differently. They could probably have sewn up 2007 to 2012 (requiring McLaren operationally to improve a fair bit too).

[Atreiu]

I would not be surprised.

[Atreiu]

If i was Ron Dennis, i would get Alonso on and wrap the 2007 and 2008's title.
I would push Lewis to other team.

Alonso, drop the burner account charade.

[Loosenut]

I always thought that Alonso likely believed that being guy who just succeeded Michael Schumacher, he earned the right be given default No1, especially over a rookie, however good he is.

That belief coming from and cemented by the legacy of the guy he'd just toppled..

That's how its done, that's how you win - support me and give me the car and I'll deliver the results, don't make me have to fight my own team-mate aswell as our rivals. That method is still working like a charm today..

 

True enough, had Ron given him outright No1, there would be less "gates", if any and Alonso would have god knows how many WDCs by now.

 

The thing is tho, Hamilton was his team-mate, so how long could that go on? You can't give a guy No1 status indefinitely when you have another guy who is clearly as good and as fast. I think the disasters of 07 would have just been postponed until 2008..

[OvDrone]

If you would've told me this back in 2007, I would've definitely discredit it. But now, after Alonso's past decade of misgivings... I believe this happened.

 

Let me say this: Ron, Fernando and Lewis were all horrid characters that fated season. They all deserved their championship loss. Ron was high af on his chromed up holier than thou McLaren horse. Fernando was a petulent child. And Lewis was Ron's little bit**. What a nest of original losers.

 

And in the next 11 years, two of 'em got to show their true loser colors. The third one followed his heart.

 

Just think about it. Think about how much Lewis' own decision to say '**** this' back to McLaren payed off. That took clear instinct and firm vision. Look back at all the BS he got from the press in 2012. Most F1 journos and publications were firmly pro-McLaren and called Hamilton all kinds of projected silliness. Lewis learned more in his first two seasons at Merc than he would've in 20 at Woking.

 

The fact is, Lewis got the opportunity to become his own authentic person at Mercedes. That simple truth is what led to him having the safe space in which he could manifest his real potential. Something he couldn't ever have done at McLaren. They had their own 'culture' and it's that very same 'culture' that is leading to their demise. Remember how obsessed Ron was with a drivers appearance back then? Close cut, clean shaved. How blatantly mundane. None of this 'celebrity lifestyle' or other creative projects for Lewis. Thank the Gods he moved away from that toxic environment.

 

I never got the whole 'McLaren has such a rich history, they deserve better, oh mercy me' nonsense from rose-tinted, nostalgics. You never rest on your laurels. Never in a million years. But McLaren and Williams are always doing exactly that. This is not about 'being as good as your last race'; this is life. The humble yet organic desire for self-improvement regardless of past achievements. Both those teams don't deserve any success at the moment.

 

McLaren is as toxic as ever. 2007 was just the catalyst that cracked the veneer of uniqueness that team had. It's now exactly how I knew it was: an empty ghost. Now plainly evident for millions out there to see, just what I felt instinctively in myself since I watched F1. McLaren need to admit their failure, at least to themselves. If not, their downfall will continue unabated.

 

And as much as I love Alonso, he deserved his own manifested failures. I am not saying it with malice of jealous glee. It's just the raw truth. He didn't straighten up his act and got what he deserved. I think he got humbled properly after these last seasons and can now show his amazing talent in other series without that fake political clout. He should really stop trying to manipulate the higher-ups. He sucks at it. Stick to the driving dude.

 

All in all, McLaren and Alonso deserve each other and Hamilton deserves his success.

 

The picture that is pure poetic bliss.

Edited by OvDrone, 21 November 2018 - 13:54.

[rodlamas]

If that is true, Alonso should have been fired and Mclaren should have put PDLR on the car for Monza. It is the same guy who did not knew about the 2008 Singapore plot.

[HP]

I always thought that Alonso likely believed that being guy who just succeeded Michael Schumacher, he earned the right be given default No1, especially over a rookie, however good he is.

That belief coming from and cemented by the legacy of the guy he'd just toppled..

That's how its done, that's how you win - support me and give me the car and I'll deliver the results, don't make me have to fight my own team-mate aswell as our rivals. That method is still working like a charm today..

 

True enough, had Ron given him outright No1, there would be less "gates", if any and Alonso would have god knows how many WDCs by now.

 

The thing is tho, Hamilton was his team-mate, so how long could that go on? You can't give a guy No1 status indefinitely when you have another guy who is clearly as good and as fast. I think the disasters of 07 would have just been postponed until 2008..

 

Denying Hamilton in 2007 was not the way for go for Ron Dennis. For the simple reason that a rookie winning the WDC in a McLaren, against a 2 time WDC was just too good value for the McLaren brand to be ignored.

 

At that point even a guy like Alonso becomes expendable.

[AustinF1]

Alonso, drop the burner account charade.

LOL, do you really think he's the only one who thinks they could have backed Alonso to win those titles ... and should have? C'mon man. That's a fairly popular opinion, even on this board.

[Loosenut]

Denying Hamilton in 2007 was not the way for go for Ron Dennis. For the simple reason that a rookie winning the WDC in a McLaren, against a 2 time WDC was just too good value for the McLaren brand to be ignored.

 

At that point even a guy like Alonso becomes expendable.

 

Good point

 

Altho with hindsight, it very much would have been the way to go, but he wouldn't have known that..

Edited by Loosenut, 21 November 2018 - 02:24.

[pitlanepalpatine]

Good point

 

Altho with hindsight, it very much would have been the way to go, but he wouldn't have known that..

 

I doubt Ron would have seen it that way even had someone pointed it out to him. Mclaren was a deeply traditionalist team and going with the changing environments was never their strong suit, which Ferrari and Leclerc next year pretty interesting because they are similar in that sense.

 

The only time I accept seniority as a valid reason for supporting one driver over another is if that person has a history in the team that helped build the success it's experiencing. Alonso didn't have that so they should have backed what ever horse was in front when it came to crunch time and if either driver wasn't willing to play ball I'd have sidelined them for the support driver.

Edited by pitlanepalpatine, 21 November 2018 - 04:22.

[kumo7]

A typical Coulda Woulda Shoulda topic where everything is based on the past events.

 

The article is not about Ron Dennis' recent voice on Alonso, or Denning saying that he will take Alonso to the court

Nor it is about Lewis' opinion about blaming Alonso.

 

All pointless to me.

 

The one who has issue should have stood up and made voice to blame who ever to be blamed in his opinion.

 

 

I personally think that this is a loser's thread, but that is only my personal opinion and will not intend to harm none of you.

Only that Alonso's later conducts were pretty much tough racing and that is weakly what I expect the conducts of the highest level athletes.

[prty]

And Hamilton and his dad pushed to the FIA for Alonso to get a penalty in qualifying, which is the same. The difference is, they got what they wanted, which is worse.

Edited by prty, 21 November 2018 - 05:27.

[SophieB]

....and then tried to take it back half an hour later.
 
World's worst blackmail attempt when you factor in Mosely already knew anyway.

That was exactly why it was so dangerous. Dennis couldn’t take the chance of Mosley later finding out, not about the IPR theft itself, but of finding out later that Dennis definitely knew about it and did nothing.

Speaking more broadly, I also feel I kind of knew all the stuff already, or variants, somehow. I am also sure I read how Martin Whitmarsh, during his and Ron’s discussion, strongly lobbied for Alonso to be sacked immediately which would have been dramatic.

[Arska]

And Hamilton and his dad pushed to the FIA for Alonso to get a penalty in qualifying, which is the same. The difference is, they got what they wanted, which is worse.

 

So they wanted FIA to uphold the sport's rules? The horror... 

Edited by Arska, 21 November 2018 - 06:53.

[w1Y]

The only thing that really matters came 1 year late.

My suspicious that He knew about Crashgate in Singapore.
It will never be proved, but i always on the opinion that he is too smart and craft to not know.
He is a Briatore's "kid" like Schumacher.

With my tin foil hat on I would almost suggest maybe he came up with the idea. But that is pure wild speculation...

Just builds on to why the championship winning teams havent wanted him and led to his miserable few years in f1. I know people love him but maybe he has gotten and deserves what he sowed

[Blackmamba]

With my tin foil hat on I would almost suggest maybe he came up with the idea. But that is pure wild speculation...
Just builds on to why the championship winning teams havent wanted him and led to his miserable few years in f1. I know people love him but maybe he has gotten and deserves what he sowed

Actually Flávio already knew about it and had already informed Bernie who in turn informed Mosley. How Flávio knew I can only guess was from his client Alonso himself as they were and still are thick as thieves. I don’t know how Flávio thought informing Bernie was supposed to help his client too. Why Mosley sat on this information for quite some time is also a big mystery.

[Pete_f1]

Well, when he was younger I always took him as being childish

[kosmos]

With my tin foil hat on I would almost suggest maybe he came up with the idea. But that is pure wild speculation...

 

 

If Alonso was the mastermind I think Symonds would have said something to save his ass (just a little). I can see Flavio protecting Alonso but not Symonds, they didn't have a good relationship.

 

Personally I think Fernando during his first McLaren stint was trying to protect himself from unfair treatment and promises unfulfilled by Dennis, probably he did it in the wrong way, he was too young and his competitive side brought out the worst of him in some moments but he didn't started any fire, it was always him reacting to what others did first.

 

Who know if this old story is true anyway.

[New Britain]

So they wanted FIA to uphold the sport's rules? The horror... 

"The sport's rules"?

Why then did Tony Scott Andrews conclude that there was no case to answer? Alonso was penalised only because Mosley interceded from his Monaco home and overruled the stewards. Or is your thesis that Mosley cared more about the rules than Scott Andrews and the other stewards did?

[New Britain]

I don't think it's as simple as that though. As got mentioned on a recent thread, Hamilton was racing the fuel burn phase to get the extra lap, as Alonso was scheduled to do, so Alonso could have just stayed with him until they were supposed to actually make the pitstop to see if he let him through at any time. He didn't need to let Alonso through straight away - it could have happened at any point before the pitstop. But I think Alonso's temper got the better of him and he decided instead to back off and plot his revenge before it was even necessary. Obviously Hamilton *should* have let him through straight away, but it didn't make any material difference that he didn't.

That is not how the McLaren team saw it at the time; otherwise they would not have kept shouting at Hamilton to let Alonso through.

 

The odd thing to me is why Dennis did not seek to placate Alonso by telling him that at one or more future races when Hamilton was scheduled to get fuel-burning priority the team would give his priority to Alonso and thus put it right.

[johnmhinds]

Pretty dirty to try and dig up stories like this again just before the guys last race.

[Blackmamba]

That is not how the McLaren team saw it at the time; otherwise they would not have kept shouting at Hamilton to let Alonso through.
 
The odd thing to me is why Dennis did not seek to placate Alonso by telling him that at one or more future races when Hamilton was scheduled to get fuel-burning priority the team would give his priority to Alonso and thus put it right.

What people seem to forget is that Kimi was in close attendance too right behind Alonso. If Hamilton had attempted to let Alonso through there was a chance that Kimi would have slipped through as well which would have affected his own preparation greatly. It’s now being largely viewed as a Hamilton di*k move but that wasn’t his intention initially. He simply took advantage of the situation and made most of it thereafter.

[as65p]

Mark Hughes is utterly convinced the story is true. As always, "context is for kings". I imagine it going something like that:

 

1. fuel-burn gate

2. swivel-gate

3. pit-lane gate

At that point, I imagine Ron being furious with them all, but apparently he sides still with Alonso. Which IMO is quite logical as the McLarens are 1-2 on the grid, and the guy who started the mess has seen his trickery failing. He surely didn't approve of Alonsos method to get the advantage back, but factually nothing bad for the team happened, yet. Alonso is assured the matter is over.

4. dad-gate (somehow, Hamiltons entourage managed to convince the stewards it should mess with was really an intra team affair)

5. resulting from 4,. penalty for Alonso

6. blackmail-gate

Alonso learns of his penalty and loses his cool. All that matters to him is to still nullify the penalty, and he even comes up with the silly idea to achieve it by running Hamilton out of fuel. Else he threatens to tell the FIA about the Ferrari papers...

Half an hour later he has come back to his senses and takes it all back. But it doesn't matter anymore, because Ron has decided to commit...

7. spilling-gate (i.e. phone his good friend Max and tell him all about it)

 

At several points in all this, all participants could have prevented it by being just a tiny bit smarter.

[Rinehart]

According to this article

https://www.racefans...ungary-in-2007/

And according to the BBC Alonso demanded McLaren in a meeting after he recieved a penalty in the 2007 Hungarian Gp that they deliverate make Lewis run out of fuel.

Personally if this is the case im so glad Alonso is finally out of F1.

 

I don't see how a new article about the events of 2007 is any more or less speculative than those written closer to the time. I'm still waiting for Ron's book...

This all just reminds me the whole thing was a clusterfook, it was a series of acts and retaliations from all sides be it Max, Ron, Lewis, Alonso, Anthony, Abad, Flavio... you name it. 

[Rinehart]

Hamilton deserved it, screwed Alonso by not letting him past, and then gets him a penalty through lobbying from his entourage.

Man, this does remind me how petulant they both were, Alonso ended up being proven right, he'd have won both 2007 and 2008 had they back him.

Err, but Hamilton was only a point away from winning both without no 1 status! 

 

What I find interesting is that Hamilton and Alonso have a lot of respect for each other and Alonso has even said about 2007 that his problem was never personally with Hamilton. To me this all goes to show that the forces creating this storm were actually all management especially Anthony Hamilton and Luis Garcia Abad. For instance I can understand an angry and emotional driver wanting to blackmail a boss in the heat of the moment, but a professional management company sanctioning it