176 replies to this topic

[JavierDeVivre]

The protest was about whether the new team could buy and use the parts developed and used by the old team.

 

The Haas argument (for what little it was worth) was that the rules say two teams cannot use the same parts, and therefore 'Racing Point Force India' can not use parts used previously by 'Force India'. It is perfectly obvious the rule was NOT intended to disbar such a purchase, and meant two concurrent teams. The stewards chose to address this by saying that 'Force India' was no longer an F1 team when the parts/IP were sold, so there is no issue.

An argument that is very hypocritical considering how much help Haas have clearly received from Ferrari when it comes to designing their F1 cars.

What Haas and Ferrari did may have been legal via loopholes in the rules, but it really does not make them look good in this argument.

People like to dismiss this a conspiracy, but when was the last time you saw a genuinely new team (rather than a buyout of an existing team) better established one in their debut season?

 

Haas' argument is because they did not get the prize money, no one should. The problem is with this attitude nothing can be changed. The issue over Haas getting money was largely down to Ecclestone, he has now gone so things can change, or at least they should be able to.

[ensign14]

According to AMuS it's because since they are racing with a new licence they didnt build their cars on their own technically.

Isn't this a bit like Herod complaining about his babysitter?
 

[loki]

 

The very fact that FOM, Liberty, Haas in the months since August have not been able to close this matter out show with 100% clarity that it is not clear at all. I have no guess on the end result, it may or may not be Haas being shown to be in the right. The end may be a whoosh in the air, no lawsuit, no complaining, just moving on.

 

 

FOM is Liberty.  The operating company is still called Formula One Management it's just wholly owned by Liberty Media.  There was no confusion on Liberty's part.  It was decided months ago this was how it was going to be.  It was settled.  This is how it is. It's Haas that keeps pushing the issue.  According to Steiner Haas has been repeatedly demanding Liberty outline their justification for the decision.  Liberty is under no such obligation and hasn't responded.  It would be similar to asking them to justify changing the font or the theme song.  The decision was made and the money is being awarded.  End of story.

[Maxioos]

FOM is Liberty.  The operating company is still called Formula One Management it's just wholly owned by Liberty Media.  There was no confusion on Liberty's part.  It was decided months ago this was how it was going to be.  It was settled.  This is how it is. It's Haas that keeps pushing the issue.  According to Steiner Haas has been repeatedly demanding Liberty outline their justification for the decision.  Liberty is under no such obligation and hasn't responded.  It would be similar to asking them to justify changing the font or the theme song.  The decision was made and the money is being awarded.  End of story.

 

Well, in a dictatorship, not in a country with rules and laws.

[loki]

 

But just keep telling they will get the money no matter what. I just don't buy it (yet) at all, and i don't care you guys don't agree. Just like all those articles mention the "new team" part. Thinking that's not important is strange.

 

We can only tell you the facts.  We can not make you believe them.  Those facts are supported by evidence that has been well documented over the last several months.  Throughout the whole episode of Force India being liquidated you've chosen to believe your self spun conspiracies and suppositions.  The conclusions you've come to have not been based on the law or even the facts at hand.  Your argument swings off on some tangent non sequitur to the reality of the situation.  Indian banks and Indian courts, Russians going to sue everyone and take the team.  Now this.  It just doesn't stop.  We can't help that you refuse to believe it.  We can only live in the reality as it exists today and not a fabricated construct of how we think it should be.

[Maxioos]

We can only tell you the facts.  We can not make you believe them.  Those facts are supported by evidence that has been well documented over the last several months.  Throughout the whole episode of Force India being liquidated you've chosen to believe your self spun conspiracies and suppositions.  The conclusions you've come to have not been based on the law or even the facts at hand.  Your argument swings off on some tangent non sequitur to the reality of the situation.  Indian banks and Indian courts, Russians going to sue everyone and take the team.  Now this.  It just doesn't stop.  We can't help that you refuse to believe it.  We can only live in the reality as it exists today and not a fabricated construct of how we think it should be.

 

What evidence can you show me that RPFI or what ever there name will be getting Row 1 payment? I will be waiting. That proof is not there. Possible a statement, but that's not proof at all.

 

I do have a statement from Todt and Haas they did NOT sign the UNANIMOUS needed papers for that payment.

Edited by Maxioos, 04 December 2018 - 18:26.

[loki]

An argument that is very hypocritical considering how much help Haas have clearly received from Ferrari when it comes to designing their F1 cars.

What Haas and Ferrari did may have been legal via loopholes in the rules, but it really does not make them look good in this argument.

People like to dismiss this a conspiracy, but when was the last time you saw a genuinely new team (rather than a buyout of an existing team) better established one in their debut season?

 

 

That's a fair point but Haas aren't the only teams exploiting loopholes and pushing the gray area in F1.  Given the means every team on the grid will use any and all available avenues for an advantage.  Haas also aren't alone in protesting things that may seem petty.

[Myrvold]

Well, in a dictatorship, not in a country with rules and laws.

FOM is not a country with rules and laws.

While they are bound to the laws in the country they are registered, there is nothing that dictates how a company decides to share earnings to other companies that neither own any part of each other.

Edited by Myrvold, 04 December 2018 - 18:29.

[Maxioos]

That's a fair point but Haas aren't the only teams exploiting loopholes and pushing the gray area in F1.  Given the means every team on the grid will use any and all available avenues for an advantage.  Haas also aren't alone in protesting things that may seem petty.

 

Getting around $ 50 million or not getting it, you call "petty"

 

Right. You make strong points.

[Maxioos]

FOM is not a country with rules and laws.

While they are bound to the laws in the country they are registered, there is nothing that dictates how a company decides to share earnings to other companies that neither own any part of each other.

 

That's what i say, they have to follow contract laws etc. And Todt was very clear, Haas did not sign it and by that RPFI can't get row 1 payment.

[Myrvold]

That's what i say, they have to follow contract laws etc. And Todt was very clear, Haas did not sign it and by that RPFI can't get row 1 payment.

However, FOM negotiate specific deals with each team, which the others have no say in.

FOM are free to do whatever deal they like with Haas, RPFI and so on.

[Maxioos]

However, FOM negotiate specific deals with each team, which the others have no say in.

FOM are free to do whatever deal they like with Haas, RPFI and so on.

 

Not about row 1 and 2, that's all teams same. Row 1 is 2+ years, row 2 is % based on finishing position, same for all teams. Those are also fixed % total earnings.

[loki]

 

I do have a statement from Todt and Haas they did NOT sign the UNANIMOUS needed papers for that payment.

 

Jean Todt has nothing to do with this situation.  He's part of the FIA and by those "laws and rules" you keep going on about he's not entitled to make a binding decision on this matter.  In short it doesn't matter what he says.   Haas did indeed sign the directive to provide currently structured payments to Racing Point.  Neither Steiner nor Gene Haas dispute this.  Their issue is that at the time they signed it they assumed it was going to be as Racing Point was purchasing Force India as a going concern and not a new entrant.  That was an assumption on their part as they were the only team that interpreted the decision in the manner.  

 

You keep juxtaposing laws and contractural agreements as being one in the same.  While there are contract laws what's relevant here is the specific contract between Haas and FOM.  That contract states what Haas will be paid and does not bind FOM to what the others will be paid.

[Maxioos]

I

 

Jean Todt has nothing to do with this situation.  He's part of the FIA and by those "laws and rules" you keep going on about he's not entitled to make a binding decision on this matter.  In short it doesn't matter what he says.   Haas did indeed sign the directive to provide currently structured payments to Racing Point.  Neither Steiner nor Gene Haas dispute this.  Their issue is that at the time they signed it they assumed it was going to be as Racing Point was purchasing Force India as a going concern and not a new entrant.  That was an assumption on their part as they were the only team that interpreted the decision in the manner.  

 

You keep juxtaposing laws and contractural agreements as being one in the same.  While there are contract laws what's relevant here is the specific contract between Haas and FOM.  That contract states what Haas will be paid and does not bind FOM to what the others will be paid.

 

I'm waiting for your proof they do get the money.

[Maustinsj]

This thread is an awful lot better through the wonderful filter of ignore 😎

[Myrvold]

Not about row 1 and 2, that's all teams same. Row 1 is 2+ years, row 2 is % based on finishing position, same for all teams. Those are also fixed % total earnings.

And this is in general terms, or does it say for Column 1 money, you need a top 10 2 out of the last 3 seasons.

Which means, there is nothing that stops FOM to add to RPFI's commercial agreement "The results from previous entity, will count towards RFPI's top 10 in constructors over the last 3 seasons".

[Maxioos]

And this is in general terms, or does it say for Column 1 money, you need a top 10 2 out of the last 3 seasons.

Which means, there is nothing that stops FOM to add to RPFI's commercial agreement "The results from previous entity, will count towards RFPI's top 10 in constructors over the last 3 seasons".

 

The stewards made clear it was a new team, so doesn't has results last 3 seasons. It can't be both.

[loki]

The stewards made clear it was a new team, so doesn't has results last 3 seasons. It can't be both.

Another argument not based in facts.  FIA stewards have no impact on how FOM distributes the money.  Again, no news that this is a new team.  Everyone has known that all long except for you apparently.

[KWSN - DSM]

The very disagreement here is equal to the disagreement in the real world, thus a very sound basis to pursue it to the end. I am not making predictions as to who will eventually stand proven correct, I am simply saying that dogmatic statements and posts to the point of this being settled fly in the face of reality.

 

[BalanceUT]

Fascinating how obnoxiously people are treating each other in this discussion. This is particularly weird considering that all we know is 

 

1) Haas has protested to FIA and gotten a firm ruling that RPFI is, in fact, a new entrant

... practically nothing else.

 

Given how little we know and how much any and all unknowns may apply in a court of law...sure seems weird for people to be using ill-tempered tones with each other here. 

 

When there are more facts maybe then there's something to discuss. 

Edited by BalanceUT, 04 December 2018 - 19:06.

[Myrvold]

The stewards made clear it was a new team, so doesn't has results last 3 seasons. It can't be both.

Like loki says. FIA =/= FOM.

What FIA rules have no effect on the wording in FOMs deals with each team.

It's all down to what's written in the separate contracts.

[Maxioos]

Another argument not based in facts.  FIA stewards have no impact on how FOM distributes the money.  Again, no news that this is a new team.  Everyone has known that all long except for you apparently.

 

You still haven't shown your claimed proof and evidence they will get the money. " Those facts are supported by evidence that has been well documented over the last several months."

[pdac]

Stupid question, but are the column 1 and column 2 payment schemes written into any binding contract anywhere? I know the teams used to sign a concord agreement and so it must have been in that. But, as far as I am aware, there is no such agreement anymore and I suspect FOM use that payment structure because it's the easiest all round. But I suspect that they are not bound (legally) to distribute the money like that.

[Myrvold]

Stupid question, but are the column 1 and column 2 payment schemes written into any binding contract anywhere? I know the teams used to sign a concord agreement and so it must have been in that. But, as far as I am aware, there is no such agreement anymore and I suspect FOM use that payment structure because it's the easiest all round. But I suspect that they are not bound (legally) to distribute the money like that.

 

As far as I understand, there is no CA anymore, and all deals are done individual - but generally by the same structure due to it being tradition and quite easy.

Edited by Myrvold, 05 December 2018 - 01:05.

[loki]

Fascinating how obnoxiously people are treating each other in this discussion. This is particularly weird considering that all we know is 

 

1) Haas has protested to FIA and gotten a firm ruling that RPFI is, in fact, a new entrant

... practically nothing else.

 

Given how little we know and how much any and all unknowns may apply in a court of law...sure seems weird for people to be using ill-tempered tones with each other here. 

 

When there are more facts maybe then there's something to discuss. 

 

Liberty has stated Racing Point is going to be paid the money.  I don't see how it can be more clear than that.   Just like in the Force India liquidation it really is that easy.  Haas has no recourse except to be mad.  Steiner had to walk back his legal action talk as they likely realize they don't have a case.  That doesn't mean they won't rattle the cage of FOM or Racing Point if given the chance, for example this last protest. The new entrant designation isn't news as that is how the team entered.  I don't know why some in the press or here on the forum are highlighting it.  The steward's decision about the team being a new entrant isn't relevant to the payment structure (because FIA don't do the payments) nor was it anything that all the teams, FOM and FIA didn't know already.

[PeterScandlyn]

Hmmm. 

Might be heading for a situation where we find out if Todt is a man or a jellyfish.....

[MikeTekRacing]

Hmmm. 

Might be heading for a situation where we find out if Todt is a man or a jellyfish.....

what does Todt have to do with this?!