179 replies to this topic

[P123]

Might have something to do with his teammate in these two years.

Possibly, but then again Hamilton did score 12 poles in 2016 despite not competing for it in three sessions and losing out due to a yellow flag in another, so nothing remarkably different now. Perhaps Nico was a tougher qualifying opponent than Vettel, but he was slightly flattered by circumstance. And Bottas has shown to be capable of being close and taking poles too. The differences regarding those two teammates is in the races.

If RB had a powerful Q engine mode, Hamilton would have a lot less poles this year. Vettel isn’t the only comparison..

Looking over the quali sessions for the year that doesn't ring true.

[Diablobb81]

It's not about Rosberg vs Vettel. It's about Rosberg vs.Bottas. The difference in poles vs. Lewis is huge. In 2016 the year you talk bout Rosberg had 8 poles.

[Atreiu]

Hamilton best driver since Senna? Hard to tell but although he had a great season i thinks its a bit early to tell. But i dont think Senna is the best driver either.. era’s are so hard to compare.

Agree with your moto gp points tho, best racing on the planet although last year the racing in the moto gp was better imo.

 

My heart says yes. ;-)

[DerFlugplatz]

1. Hamilton

2. Verstappen

3. Alonso

4. Leclerc

5. Räikkönen

6. Vettel

7. Ricciardo

8. Magnussen

9. Perez

10. Hulkenberg

[CharlesWinstone]

I am talking about PRE 2014. Do I need to spell this out?

Pre 2014 Lewis did not have the enormous power disadvantage like Max and Dan had the last four years. And because you like spelling so much😝. "The Renault engine has the l e a s t power of the 4 engine manufacturers".

[FrontWing]

It's not about Rosberg vs Vettel. It's about Rosberg vs.Bottas. The difference in poles vs. Lewis is huge. In 2016 the year you talk bout Rosberg had 8 poles.

3 of which Lewis didn't compete. Lewis also had issues in Monaco too, so it could have looked very similar to his qualy record against Bottas this year.

[goldenboy]

I'm so shocked this thread turned into an argument..

[Timorous]

Pre 2014 Lewis did not have the enormous power disadvantage like Max and Dan had the last four years. And because you like spelling so much. "The Renault engine has the l e a s t power of the 4 engine manufacturers".

 

No, he had an Aero disadvantage instead.

[Carrinthe]

1. Hamilton: Almost faultless and mentally much stronger than Vettel. If he keeps driving like this he's almost unstoppable. One of the strongest performances in modern day F1.

 

2. Verstappen: The first 6 races were abdominal, but after that he was sensational. Shafting Ricciardo 15-5 in qualifying is hugely impressive and his racepace is always A+. One weakness I noticed: during qualifying in Q3 he doesn't improve after his first lap. One of the very few drivers on the grid that can take the fight to Lewis with equal material especially if he is as consistent as in the last 15 races.

 

3. Leclerc: The Sauber has improved a lot after last season but that doesn't take away that Leclerc put in some very impressive drives in his first complete season. A huge talent who was the only one that could (sometimes) live with Max in karting. Frits van Amersfoort who had both guys in F3 rates him just as highly and that says a lot. Vettel will have his hands full next year and I wouldn't be surprised that Charles will be a force to be reckoned with in the championship next year. 
 

4. Ricciardo: Daniel had a pig of a season. He showed the first few races he is still one of the best. After that, mechanical gremlins and an on-fire Verstappen put him on the back foot. He was made look ordinary by his teammate but he is far from that. Against most other opposition he would have been on top. He is a fast, reliable point scorer. Makes very few mistakes. I do think he's a bit of a one trick pony with his divebomb overtaking. I would like to see a little more variation in that department. 

 

5. Vettel: I am somehow tempted to put Seb lower on the list as he should have been fighting for the WDC till the end. But he is still one of the fastest on the grid with tremendous one lap speed and a scorching race pace. He does make mistakes he shouldn't make with his experience and that cost him at the minimum a crack at the championship.  But he also had an impressive first halve of the season. Next year will be very interesting against Leclerc. 

 

6. Alonso: I find it difficult to rate Alonso this season. Destroying Vandoorne is impressive but I can't shake the feeling Vandoorne never got an fair chance and was also mentally cracked. Still he put in some very impressive results in what can only be a dog of a car.

 

7. Raikkonen:  Probably his best season in some time. Raikkonen has been relaible and maximized his results most of the time while being frustrated with terrible strategic calls from the pit. Clearly not as impressive as the top 5 of this list but still very good.

 

8. Hulkenberg: Best of the rest and most of the time solid results. Clearly stronger than Sainz who isn't a bad driver at all. The battle with Ricciardo will be one of the most interesting teammate battles next season and a huge opportunity for the Hulk to distinguish himself.  

 

9. Perez: After last year I thought that he would be clearly beaten by Ocon this year. Instead he raised his game and was the better of the two. 

 

10. Gasly: When the TR was a little bit competitive and not penalized again for parts replacement, he put in the results. It must have been difficult at times to be a testsubject for Honda but at least he will profit from his work next year. He will be up against Max and I'm afraid that is too soon and it will not be pretty,... 
 

Edited by Carrinthe, 29 November 2018 - 15:23.

[PlatenGlass]

Eh? You've completely misunderstood my point. In the 7 years before the hybrid era Hamilton had 30 poles and was already in the top 10 polesiters in F1 history. Without a dominant car. Without an engine advantage in qually. Max has had cars relatively as good as Hamilton in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2013. In that time his teammate has had 3 poles and him 0. My point isn't that complicated, he has to be the fastest man on track when he doesn't have the fastest car multiple times before he can claim to be the outright quickest driver.
 
Who's this "fastest of all qualifier" you speak of?

I don't think it's as simple as this. The Red Bulls that Verstappen has had is harder to get pole with than the McLarens and early Mercs that Hamilton had overall. Yes, Ricciardo has had three poles, but the fact that Verstappen messed up at those Monacos wasn't really anything to do with speed, and as far as I understood he had some minor problem in Mexico (and one of those poles was in 2016 when Ricciardo was generally faster anyway). But in any case, speed isn't just about poles. Ricciardo was regarded as one of the best qualifiers, and Verstappen has outperformed him on that front in the last two years. It's impossible to know whether he'd be ahead of or behind Hamilton on that front in equal cars, but I don't think either driver is obviously faster than the other.

[sennafan24]

I don't think it's as simple as this. The Red Bulls that Verstappen has had is harder to get pole with than the McLarens and early Mercs that Hamilton had overall. Yes, Ricciardo has had three poles, but the fact that Verstappen messed up at those Monacos wasn't really anything to do with speed, and as far as I understood he had some minor problem in Mexico (and one of those poles was in 2016 when Ricciardo was generally faster anyway). But in any case, speed isn't just about poles. Ricciardo was regarded as one of the best qualifiers, and Verstappen has outperformed him on that front in the last two years. It's impossible to know whether he'd be ahead of or behind Hamilton on that front in equal cars, but I don't think either driver is obviously faster than the other.

Danny's car had the same problems. But Danny's smoother driving style was better suited to overcome said problems. Hence why he took pole by the narrowest of margins. 

 

However, had Red Bull brought the best car to tracks like Silverstone, Australia, and Canada; tracks where Max was clearly quicker than Danny over 1 lap, then Max would have comfortably scored pole positions this year. 

 

Faster than Lewis over 1 lap? Probably not. I think Lewis still has a tiny edge over him in that department. But regardless, they are clearly the two quickest drivers in the sport at the minute. 

Edited by sennafan24, 29 November 2018 - 23:04.

[CountDooku]

I don't think it's as simple as this. The Red Bulls that Verstappen has had is harder to get pole with than the McLarens and early Mercs that Hamilton had overall. Yes, Ricciardo has had three poles, but the fact that Verstappen messed up at those Monacos wasn't really anything to do with speed, and as far as I understood he had some minor problem in Mexico (and one of those poles was in 2016 when Ricciardo was generally faster anyway). But in any case, speed isn't just about poles. Ricciardo was regarded as one of the best qualifiers, and Verstappen has outperformed him on that front in the last two years. It's impossible to know whether he'd be ahead of or behind Hamilton on that front in equal cars, but I don't think either driver is obviously faster than the other.

 

The one who has 83 pole positions is not obviously faster that the one who has 0? Cross-driver rankings just doesn't work. You have to independently build up your own record of accomplishments and not just claim greatness because you beat a driver over a couple of seasons.

[PlatenGlass]

The one who has 83 pole positions is not obviously faster that the one who has 0? Cross-driver rankings just doesn't work. You have to independently build up your own record of accomplishments and not just claim greatness because you beat a driver over a couple of seasons.

It's not about claiming greatness though. And career stats don't tell you who is a faster driver right now. In any case, I wouldn't claim that Verstappen is faster - I just think it's close.

At the end of 1993, Alain Prost had just completed a season where he scored 13 pole positions, bringing his career total to 33. Schumacher had zero poles at that point. But who was the faster driver at that moment in time? To me, it was unquestionably Schumacher.

[sopa]

 

Faster than Lewis over 1 lap? Probably not. I think Lewis still has a tiny edge over him in that department. But regardless, they are clearly the two quickest drivers in the sport at the minute. 

 

I think decision between Hamilton and Verstappen depends on if you think Valtteri Bottas is a quicker qualifier than Daniel Ricciardo, at least based on 2018. Not that I think there is a definite answer to that, just food for thought.

[wj_gibson]

Firstly, I think the general level of performance in the field is the highest it has been in a great many years, and that those positioned 8-10 in the list would have been 3rd or 4th a few years ago. That said:

1. Hamilton.

His best season, I can’t think of a single weekend when he wasn’t absolutely on it. Likely to be a formidable contender in 2019 as he is only now reaching his peak, which is frightening for everyone else.

2. Verstappen.

Yeah, so his first few races were “challenging” but since then he has been operating at Hamilton levels. He could be around for another 20 years yet.

3. Alonso.

Got everything from the car that was humanly possible.

4. Leclerc.

Undoubtedly the real deal and probably Verstappen’s closest future challenger. Some genuinely awesome moments already.

5. Vettel.

Some great days but far too many elementary errors for someone with this level of experience.

6. Ocon.

An underrated season IMO.

7. Raikkonen.

A pleasing renaissance.

8. Ricciardo

Faded in the second half.

9. Magnussen

Can be infuriatingly immature but has delivered all year.

10. Bottas.

The most disappointing performer this year. Needs to sort out his head.

Edited by wj_gibson, 30 November 2018 - 18:11.

[CountDooku]

It's not about claiming greatness though. And career stats don't tell you who is a faster driver right now. In any case, I wouldn't claim that Verstappen is faster - I just think it's close.

At the end of 1993, Alain Prost had just completed a season where he scored 13 pole positions, bringing his career total to 33. Schumacher had zero poles at that point. But who was the faster driver at that moment in time? To me, it was unquestionably Schumacher.

Why do you say Prost and not Senna?

[sennafan24]

I think decision between Hamilton and Verstappen depends on if you think Valtteri Bottas is a quicker qualifier than Daniel Ricciardo, at least based on 2018. Not that I think there is a definite answer to that, just food for thought.

In sessions where a direct comparison can be made, Max outqualified Danny by a score of 9-5. I have excluded Hungary, Bahrain, Monza, Russia, Germany, Spa and Japan for various reasons (grid penalties, mechanical errors, team errors, etc). In sessions where a direct comparison can be made, Lewis outqualifed Bottas by a score of 14-5. I have excluded Germany and Spa for various reasons (car fault, grid pen). Interestingly, both Lewis and Max had a phase where their teammate gave them problems over 1 lap. Danny outqualified Max in 3 out of the last 4 races of the season. And Bottas was very close to Lewis over 1 lap in the first half of the year. 

 

Bottas is a very strong qualifier. He had the measure of Pastor and Massa over 1 lap at Williams. Danny was also a very good qualifier before teaming up with Max. He was quicker than Vettel, JEV and Kvyat in qualifying. He had a dip in early 2017 as he struggled to adapt to the new spec cars. But as we have seen this year, Max is just quicker than him for the most part over 1 lap. Although the numbers were skewed a bit in Max's favour. 

 

Anyway, my impression is that Lewis's highs over 1 lap (and otherwise), are beyond the reach of anyone on the grid. He accesses those highs more often than not in qualifying these days. Hence why I think he would edge Max in qualifying over a season. But that is by no means definitive. Max is clearly an Alonso/Hamilton level talent. 

[PlatenGlass]

Why do you say Prost and not Senna?

Because I don't think that Schumacher was obviously faster than Senna. It would have made my case look better if I could have compared Schumacher against someone with over 60 poles rather than just 33, but 33 versus 0 is still infinitely times as many!

Edited by PlatenGlass, 30 November 2018 - 21:55.

[CountDooku]

Because I don't think that Schumacher was obviously faster than Senna. It would have made my case look better if I could have compared Schumacher against someone with over 60 poles rather than just 33, but 33 versus 0 is still infinitely times as many!

As you admit, it would have been ridiculous to compare an obviously talented journeyman (Michael) to the fastest driver F1 had seen for over 3 decades (Ayrton) in 1993. Why now do the same with Hamilton, who is CLEARLY the most outstanding qualifier since Ayrton?
Edit: I realist you didn’t actually make the “fastest man in f1” claim so it’s probably unfair to call you up for it!

Edited by CountDooku, 30 November 2018 - 22:55.

[PlatenGlass]

As you admit, it would have been ridiculous to compare an obviously talented journeyman (Michael) to the fastest driver F1 had seen for over 3 decades (Ayrton) in 1993. Why now do the same with Hamilton, who is CLEARLY the most outstanding qualifier since Ayrton?
Edit: I realist you didn’t actually make the “fastest man in f1” claim so it’s probably unfair to call you up for it!

Haha - I'm not sure I'd call Schumacher a talented journeyman!

[CountDooku]

Haha - I'm not sure I'd call Schumacher a talented journeyman!

He was at that time.

[noriaki]

"Journeyman" is not how I would describe any racing driver on their third season, let alone Schumacher. 

[markelov74]

https://f1metrics.wo...-season-report/

F1 Metrics (well known for being the best statistical model)

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Leclerc
4. Verstappen
5. Pérez
6. Hulkenberg
7. Vettel
8. Ocon
9. Vandoorne
10. Sainz

[Marklar]

It's far better than in other years (not like that is an achievement though), but Bottas is never the 2nd worse driver on the grid if you claim at the same time that Hamilton drove one of the best seasons ever in the sports history.

Kinda surprised that Alonso is only 2nd though, this model is usually putting him on default 1st

[GTA]

1) Lewis Hamilton

2) Charles LeClerc

3) Fernando Alonso

4) Nico Hulkenberg

5) Max Verstappen

6) Sergio Perez

7) Daniel Ricciardo

8) Carlos Sainz

9) Sebastian Vettel

10) Kevin Magnussen

[JRodrigues]

It's far better than in other years (not like that is an achievement though), but Bottas is never the 2nd worse driver on the grid if you claim at the same time that Hamilton drove one of the best seasons ever in the sports history.

Kinda surprised that Alonso is only 2nd though, this model is usually putting him on default 1st

 

Nevermind Bottas in 19th or Raikkonen in 14th. Let's just talk about Vandoorne in 9th!        

[sopa]

Hamilton 1st, Bottas 19th

Alonso 2nd, Vandoorne 9th.

 

Which mathematical model do you have to use to make the gap between HAM and BOT bigger than the gap between ALO and VAN? Certainly it can't be qualifying gap. What, then?

[Heyli]

In sessions where a direct comparison can be made, Max outqualified Danny by a score of 9-5. I have excluded Hungary, Bahrain, Monza, Russia, Germany, Spa and Japan for various reasons (grid penalties, mechanical errors, team errors, etc). In sessions where a direct comparison can be made, Lewis outqualifed Bottas by a score of 14-5. I have excluded Germany and Spa for various reasons (car fault, grid pen). Interestingly, both Lewis and Max had a phase where their teammate gave them problems over 1 lap. Danny outqualified Max in 3 out of the last 4 races of the season. And Bottas was very close to Lewis over 1 lap in the first half of the year. 

 

Bottas is a very strong qualifier. He had the measure of Pastor and Massa over 1 lap at Williams. Danny was also a very good qualifier before teaming up with Max. He was quicker than Vettel, JEV and Kvyat in qualifying. He had a dip in early 2017 as he struggled to adapt to the new spec cars. But as we have seen this year, Max is just quicker than him for the most part over 1 lap. Although the numbers were skewed a bit in Max's favour. 

 

Anyway, my impression is that Lewis's highs over 1 lap (and otherwise), are beyond the reach of anyone on the grid. He accesses those highs more often than not in qualifying these days. Hence why I think he would edge Max in qualifying over a season. But that is by no means definitive. Max is clearly an Alonso/Hamilton level talent. 

Why do you exclude Hungary and Spa? 

[sennafan24]

Why do you exclude Hungary and Spa? 

I forgot that Danny had run in Q3 at Spa. So yes, that session can be included (10-5)

 

At Hungary, Danny was unlucky with yellow flags and changing conditions in Q2. 

[MikeV1987]

Formula 1.5 should be in it's own group, there is too much disparity between the teams.

 

Hamilton clearly best overall driver in the he top 3 teams, all the others were all a bit too weak in different areas.

 

Formula 1.5: All these guys were very good, very worthy of a seat in the top teams.

1) Alonso

2) Hulkenberg

3) Leclerc

4) Sainz

5) Perez

6) Ocon

 

The rest were meh...

Edited by MikeV1987, 04 December 2018 - 16:29.