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Who vetoed Ricciardo's move to Ferrari


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#1 gowebber

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 02:46

Very interesting, particularly if it happened at the last minute like its being reported. Does that mean there was some sort of pre-agreement in place then??

 

It seems the finger is pointing at Vettel...

 

"With Kimi Raikkonen’s retirement opening up a spot beside Sebastian Vettel, it looked to be a perfect fit.

 
But it fell through at the last minute, and Ricciardo has now claimed someone inside Ferrari vetoed the move.
 
Evidently someone said no when I arrived. Who? I’d like to know, but maybe I have an idea…
 
While Ricciardo did not give a name to his suspect, he may be referring Sebastian Vettel, who is currently the No. 1 driver at Ferrari having left Red Bull a season after the Aussie arrived, and outperformed him thus upsetting the apple cart.
 
When pushed further on why his move to Ferrari broke down, Ricciardo was unsure, but hinted the door was open for him to move there in the future – should he decide not to extend his stay at Renault longer than the initial two-year deal."
 

 

https://au.sports.ya...-021013421.html


Edited by gowebber, 03 December 2018 - 05:51.


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#2 goldenboy

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 03:00

It also said it was more likely to be SM than vettel I think. So maybe a bit unfair to vettel to not mention that.

Not sure I completely trust the context of anything from those publications either. They regularly come up suggested to me and I'm not ever impressed.

#3 baddog

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 03:00

How long has Leclerc's move to Ferrari been in the works? You think they were throwing that away for Ricciardo?



#4 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 03:06

Would Vettel have any pull to veto another driver?  He certainly didn't have enough pull to keep Kimi as his teammate.



#5 baddog

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 03:09

Would Vettel have any pull to veto another driver?  He certainly didn't have enough pull to keep Kimi as his teammate.

 

At Ferrari? Unlikely, especially after a year where his own performance was questionable. If they were winning everything under the Sun they MIGHT listen if they felt like it, but they always want it to be clear it if the Scuderia first, drivers second.



#6 teejay

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 03:25

Leclerc - fast, cheaper, less likely to upset Vettel.

 

Doubt it was vettel who made the call. 



#7 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 03:27

Ummmmm what? How's Raikkonens retirement opening up a spot for Ricciardo if Raikkonen isn't retiring and now racing for Sauber? Did he turn around and say "well if they aren't taking Ricciardo I'm so not leaving now"? It appears someone is looking for a crock of **** to stir. 



#8 gowebber

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 03:58

They probably thought Kimi was retiring back then. Also Vettels stocks were higher as was driving better than he did in the second half of the year. More likely SM tho. Apparently they dont really seem to want an Italian heritage driver either.

"Enzo Ferrari reluctance to select homegrown talent grew following his fear of harming his own during the frightening days of regular fatalities in F1 after the deaths of Eugenio Castellotti (1956), Luigi Musso (1958) and Lorenzo Bandini (1967)."

https://www-crash-ne...lian-f1-drivers


Edited by gowebber, 03 December 2018 - 04:35.


#9 HP

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 04:14

Doubt it was a driver. They may be consulted by the team, but that is a far cry from having veto rights. Any team that gives a driver a veto right is not very smart IMO.

 

http://classic.autos....php/id/138634/

 

If anyone, I guess it was SM. He wanted Leclerc, after Kimi's dip in form in 2017. Then SM passed away, and it was said that Ferrari wanted to honor SM wishes, despite Kimi's form this year.

 

The other option is someone around Nicolas Todt, who is managing Leclerc since 2011.



#10 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 05:13

Inclined to believe it was Marchionne who most definetly wanted Leclerc. However lets not pretend for one moment that Vettel would have been fine with Ricciardo joining.

At the very least talks were held... and I'd be guessing Vettel and anyone on his side were saying no and pushing to retain Raikkonen.

Seems Seb only got half his wish. After the season he's had I am not surprised.

#11 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 06:36

This is what Ricciardo said in April:
 

The Australian has only talked about his future with Red Bull, he told reporters in Baku on Thursday ahead of Sunday’s Azerbaijan Grand Prix.

“I’m aware of other reports, but there hasn’t been anything else, so they’re not true,” said Ricciardo, winner in China two weeks ago and of last year’s chaotic Baku race.

Asked specifically about reports of a pre-agreement with Ferrari for an exclusive negotiating period, the 28-year-old replied: “That’s not true”.

.......

“I wouldn’t go somewhere else just for a change,” he said, recognizing also that he felt lingering loyalty to Red Bull who have said they want a decision by the August break.


This is what Ricciardo said back in July:

"I actually thought there would be more interest than there has been from them (Ferrari)," Ricciardo told Motorsport Magazine.

"But maybe something has happened or whatever, I don’t know.

“It’s probably safe to say that my options are pretty limited," he admitted

"I don’t think there will be much movement at the top. Mercedes won’t change their drivers and Ferrari, who knows with them?

"They have Kimi (Raikkonen), and now there’s talk about (Charles) Leclerc, but I don’t know what they’ll do."

"I’m obviously leaning toward staying here — I expect to have something signed, sealed and delivered by the summer break. It’s definitely getting closer."



Now 2 Australian publications claim there have been talks and that he was denied a seat? Really? Honestly, Ricciardo himself would not be the most reliable source looking at the quotes above. No offense.

Edited by A3, 03 December 2018 - 06:38.


#12 pRy

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 06:49

Maybe instead of talking about "what if" scenarios, Daniel should focus on talking about his new team. It isn't the best way to start a stint at a new team by discussing how disappointed you are not to be driving for another one. This move to Renault is starting to look like a huge mistake for him. He'll be lucky to recover from it.

 

Regarding the "veto", Daniel doesn't actually use that word himself, just that someone said no. Well, no **** Sherlock. I suspect this one was simply down to Ferrari deciding Leclerc was the better option for 2019. Which after the performances of this season, who can blame them?


Edited by pRy, 03 December 2018 - 06:51.


#13 RPM40

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 06:50

Leclerc - fast, cheaper, less likely to upset Vettel.

 

Doubt it was vettel who made the call. 

 

Lets just wait before we claim Leclerc won't upset Vettel. 



#14 Ragnar668

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 07:05

They probably thought Kimi was retiring back then. Also Vettels stocks were higher as was driving better than he did in the second half of the year. More likely SM tho. Apparently they dont really seem to want an Italian heritage driver either.

"Enzo Ferrari reluctance to select homegrown talent grew following his fear of harming his own during the frightening days of regular fatalities in F1 after the deaths of Eugenio Castellotti (1956), Luigi Musso (1958) and Lorenzo Bandini (1967)."

https://www-crash-ne...lian-f1-drivers

 

We have:
- A questionable source
- They probably thought Kimi was retiring back then. 
- Apparently they dont really seem to want an Italian heritage driver either.
- And Ricciardo who himself expected more interest from Ferrari in July

I call BS



#15 Stephane

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 07:07

This is what Ricciardo said in April:
 

This is what Ricciardo said back in July:


Now 2 Australian publications claim there have been talks and that he was denied a seat? Really? Honestly, Ricciardo himself would not be the most reliable source looking at the quotes above. No offense.

 

Cause we often hear drivers talk directly about negociations when they happen....

 

Of course he will only talk about it now that everything is settled.



#16 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 07:29

Lets just wait before we claim Leclerc won't upset Vettel.

I definitely think Leclerc is going to upset Vettel. He might even upset Hmilton and Verstappen at the same time. Exciting times.

#17 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 07:31

Cause we often hear drivers talk directly about negociations when they happen....
 
Of course he will only talk about it now that everything is settled.


Uhm, he said he was disappointed there was no interest from Ferrari.... when it actually happened.... why would he say that if they actually held talks? Would be quite stupid.

#18 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:08

The original article is here https://www.automoto...mio-arrivo.html

Using google translate I got this:

Ferrari key, at one point during the season seemed made with your arrival in Maranello, then everything stopped. Even you said you asked for too much money ...

"I can not say why I do not know what you're talking about ... Who said I'd asked for too much money mind ... Evidently someone said no when I arrived ... Who, I'd like to know, but maybe I have an idea ..."

Now that the season is over and you can talk, can you tell us what happened with Ferrari that all seemed done and instead ...

"Ha ha ha ... good question ... maybe it's better if you do it to them ... I talked and discussed, but you see that they had already made arrangements with Leclerc, so mine fell. good and that works well, good luck, as far as I'm concerned, I hope to still have some time in F1 and who knows that in the future there are not opportunities to meet again, this time it went like this ... "


Edit:
Sportsmole.co.uk has a different interpretation/translation of the article:

The Italian publication Automoto thinks Ricciardo fell out with Dr Helmut Marko.

One rumour is that Marko said around the paddock that Ricciardo asked for too much money from Ferrari.

"Who said I asked for too much money?" Ricciardo is quoted as saying by Automoto. "I'd like to know, but I have an idea.

"Yes we talked about it, but I think they had already made arrangements with Leclerc. But I think I still have some more time in F1, so maybe another time it will work out differently."


Edited by A3, 03 December 2018 - 08:15.


#19 Maxioos

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:47

Maybe instead of talking about "what if" scenarios, Daniel should focus on talking about his new team. It isn't the best way to start a stint at a new team by discussing how disappointed you are not to be driving for another one. This move to Renault is starting to look like a huge mistake for him. He'll be lucky to recover from it.

 

Regarding the "veto", Daniel doesn't actually use that word himself, just that someone said no. Well, no **** Sherlock. I suspect this one was simply down to Ferrari deciding Leclerc was the better option for 2019. Which after the performances of this season, who can blame them?

 

I agree.

 

While on a 2 year contract, intention is a long commitment both side. They expect podium/win fight in 2021, so you want to be there at that moment seems to me. 

 

"But I think I still have some more time in F1, so maybe another time it will work out differently." isn't what i would like to read as Renault. How committed is he too the long term (3/5+ years) plan? Can we work too his ideal car in 2021 while he can possible and for sure would like to leave than too Ferrari?

 

He should talk up Renault (potential/vision/ambition) like crazy, and motivate the whole team by openly and full committing to their combined goal. He should say (imo.) things like, "well, in 2021 it doesn't matter anymore, we as Renault want to fight and beat Ferrari on merit than, so i rather beat them than join them when that time arrives" etc.



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#20 DeVol

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:50

Ricciardo in 2014/15 was on everyone's radar, and I'm sure Ferrari said "yeah talk to us in a couple of years or whenever." 

 

But lets get real - only an idiot would want 2 roosters in the henhouse - imagine Ham/RIC, or VET/RIC? Absolute nightmare for everyone, bitching 24/7, tantrums, fights, crashes, you name it.

 

Ferrari and Mercedes, only have room for one $30m superstar per team.



#21 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:52

It worked out pretty nicely with Dan and Max at Red Bull. They didn't crash that much. :)

#22 goldenboy

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:54

Ricciardo in 2014/15 was on everyone's radar, and I'm sure Ferrari said "yeah talk to us in a couple of years or whenever."

But lets get real - only an idiot would want 2 roosters in the henhouse - imagine Ham/RIC, or VET/RIC? Absolute nightmare for everyone, bitching 24/7, tantrums, fights, crashes, you name it.

Ferrari and Mercedes, only have room for one $30m superstar per team.

I believe this to very much be the case, even if RIC isn't quite running at max or ham level at the moment.

#23 goldenboy

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:57

It worked out pretty nicely with Dan and Max at Red Bull. They didn't crash that much. :)

Actually there wasn't much drama when he was paired with vettel either I suppose. But, he is likely more of an immediate challenge than Kimi, bottas or leclerc which could cost a team overall.

As boring as it is for us, with the investment these teams put in, it's no wonder they prefer a n1 n2 setup if possible and can't blame them.

#24 RPM40

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:59

It worked out pretty nicely with Dan and Max at Red Bull. They didn't crash that much. :)


Verstappen even said there were zero games.

Having said that I’m not sure ferrari veto’d him for performance reasons as Leclerc to me could be even a higher potential talent. He has insane promise

#25 statman

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:00

from June:

 

 

 

Ted Kravitz on Sky website (Honda article) regarding Ricciardo:

 

Paddock gossip suggests Ferrari bosses Sergio Marchionne and Maurizio Arrivabene don't regard the jokey Ricciardo as their type of driver and are concerned his appointment would destabilise Sebastian Vettel. For Mercedes, signing Ricciardo could attract a whole new fanbase and freshen up the team's image but it appears they prefer the quiet life with Valtteri Bottas.
 


#26 DeVol

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:03

from June: Paddock gossip suggests Ferrari bosses Sergio Marchionne and Maurizio Arrivabene don't regard the jokey Ricciardo as their type of driver and are concerned his appointment would destabilise Sebastian Vettel

 

Yep recall that, and the last bit makes perfect sense. So does the Benz situation.

 

The first bit - well, Ferrari have always taken themselves a bit seriously  :stoned:


Edited by DeVol, 03 December 2018 - 09:04.


#27 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:04

Ahhh, another ‘let’s bitch about Vettel’ thread.

Yawn.

#28 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:05

Actually there wasn't much drama when he was paired with vettel either I suppose. But, he is likely more of an immediate challenge than Kimi, bottas or leclerc which could cost a team overall.

As boring as it is for us, with the investment these teams put in, it's no wonder they prefer a n1 n2 setup if possible and can't blame them.

Yup.
Mercedes have Hamilton who doesn't really need a good number 2. If I'm not mistaken Hamilton and Verstappen's contracts end at the same time.

With Ferrari it's different, I think this could be Vettel's last season (with Ferrari anyway) and Ricciardo would only be a short term solution. If Leclerc is "the real deal" like I expect him to be it's an easier transition towards a new number 1 than it would have been with Ricciardo.

#29 Nonesuch

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:05

I'm all for a good unfounded, baseless, no-evidence-required conspiracy - especially when frustrated F1 drivers themselves get involved...

 

But people sure are quick to forget who else was at Ferrari this year.

...

That's right.

Daniil Kvyat.

:cool:


Edited by Nonesuch, 03 December 2018 - 09:06.


#30 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:06

Having said that I’m not sure ferrari veto’d him for performance reasons as Leclerc to me could be even a higher potential talent. He has insane promise


It's amazing to see we finally agree on something.

#31 RPM40

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:06

Ahhh, another ‘let’s bitch about Vettel’ thread.

Yawn.


Next up “Does the sport have too many DHL signs?”

We can all thank Vettel for removing one

#32 Nonesuch

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:07

f1-french-gp-2018-daniil-kvyat-ferrari-a

 

Paddock sources suggest this seemingly innocent exchange in the back of a Ferrari pitgarage proved key to ending Ricciardo's future at the Ferrari team.

 

Who? Can't say.

 

Where? Can't say.

 

When? Can't say.

 

Proof? This is F1 reporting! Who cares about that.



#33 gowebber

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:44

 

We have:
- A questionable source
- They probably thought Kimi was retiring back then. 
- Apparently they dont really seem to want an Italian heritage driver either.
- And Ricciardo who himself expected more interest from Ferrari in July

I call BS

 

 

Whats the questionable source? Foxsport, Yahoo? FI.com? Yadda Yadda. They must be all lying....actually no..... He spoke to Automoto an Italian publication. Next time try harder before calling BS.  :wave:

 

"Our F1 correspondent, Paolo Ciccarone, interviewed Daniel Ricciardo. After the ups and downs of the last season with Red Bull, the Australian is ready for a new chapter with Renault. As for Ferrari ..."

 

""I can’t say why," he told Italian outlet Automoto when asked if he wanted too much money.

"I don’t know what you’re talking about. Who said I’d asked for too much money? Evidently someone said no to my arrival."

 

https://translate.go...mio-arrivo.html

 

http://f1i.com/news/...to-ferrari.html


Edited by gowebber, 03 December 2018 - 09:49.


#34 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:00

Having said that I’m not sure ferrari veto’d him for performance reasons as Leclerc to me could be even a higher potential talent. He has insane promise

Absolutely he does. Could be every bit as good as Verstappen... and that would spell serious trouble for Vettel and his career.

I rate Leclerc very highly and he's the future of Ferrari and the golden boy. Next season is going to be very entertaining.

#35 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:06

Whats the questionable source? Foxsport, Yahoo? FI.com? Yadda Yadda. They must be all lying....actually no..... He spoke to Automoto an Italian publication. Next time try harder before calling BS.  :wave:
 
"Our F1 correspondent, Paolo Ciccarone, interviewed Daniel Ricciardo.[/size] [/size]After the ups and downs of the last season with Red Bull, the Australian is ready for a new chapter with Renault.[/size] [/size]As for Ferrari ..."[/size]
 
""I can’t say why," he told Italian outlet [/size]Automoto when asked if he wanted too much money.[/size]
"I don’t know what you’re talking about. Who said I’d asked for too much money? Evidently someone said no to my arrival."
 
https://translate.go...mio-arrivo.html
 
http://f1i.com/news/...to-ferrari.html


You are repeating what I posted already, but you left out this bit:

I had spoken and discussed, but you can see that they had already made arrangements with Leclerc, so mine fell. I hope for them that it is the right choice and that it works well, good luck. As far as I'm concerned, I hope to stay some more time in F1 and who knows maybe in the future there will be opportunities to meet again, this time it was like that...".



#36 gowebber

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:14

You are repeating what I posted already, but you left out this bit:

 

Only the link but really just reiterating regarding the questionable source dig.

 

What I find strange is is we are hearing the "deal fell through at the last minute" yet apparently they already chose LeClerc?? Why would they be talking to Dan if they had already chosen LeClerc? It also says he had been in discussions with Ferrari which seems to indicate multiple times. Sounds like in the end after these various discussions they told him they were going with LeClerc for any number of reasons mainly I believe not to rock the boat. The point is you don't talk to a driver multiple times if you don't have much interest.


Edited by gowebber, 03 December 2018 - 10:32.


#37 cpbell

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:17

Inclined to believe it was Marchionne who most definetly wanted Leclerc. However lets not pretend for one moment that Vettel would have been fine with Ricciardo joining.

At the very least talks were held... and I'd be guessing Vettel and anyone on his side were saying no and pushing to retain Raikkonen.

Seems Seb only got half his wish. After the season he's had I am not surprised.

I suspect this is pretty cose to the actual sequence of events.



#38 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:32

The point is you don't talk to a driver multiple times if you don't have much interest.


Multiple times?

#39 gowebber

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:36

Multiple times?

 

Before his decision last summer to switch his allegiance from Red Bull to Renault for next season, the Australian driver had been in discussions with the Scuderia about possibly replacing Kimi Raikkonen for 2019.

 

In the end however, the talks fell through, with speculation that Ricciardo's financial demands had perhaps exceeded what Ferrari was prepared to offer.

 

http://f1i.com/news/...to-ferrari.html

 

To me that indicates multiple times. Don't know why you would only talk once about such a serious decision.



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#40 Spillage

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:40

I doubt Vettel has the power to veto a teammate, to be honest. Leclerc was performing and he's already on the books, so it made sense to go with him.

#41 Nonesuch

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:42

Other than Ferrari having a few talks with Ricciardo, nobody knows what happened. Any ideas of 'Driver X doesn't want Driver Y as his team-mate and gets to tell the CEO of a multi-billion corporation what to do' is fantasy, projection, and there's no evidence for it whatsoever.

 

Of course Ferrari would talk to Ricciardo. Ferrari had an open seat in 2019, Ricciardo no contract. Ferrari would have been fools not to at least put a few feelers out for Ricciardo - and Hamilton, for that matter.

 

When Leclerc turned his rough start into a clear upward trend, soon followed by Verstappen staying out of trouble and asserting himself as the better man at Red Bull - Ricciardo's position predictably crumbled, and left him nowhere else to go but the midfield.

 

No need for evil schemes.


Edited by Nonesuch, 03 December 2018 - 10:42.


#42 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:08

Anyone who thinks a number 1 driver does not have a say in who his teammate is... is quite frankly delusional. Thats exactly what Vettel is and is being paid accordingly.

Thats not to say the final decision or most crucial opinion is the number 1s, however it would carry a certain degree of weight without question.

Vettel would not have wanted Ricciardo. You almost sense he's thinking he can cope with a year or two of Leclerc before the young lad really hits his straps. Maybe that's Sebs thinking?

What if Leclerc does a 'Lewis 07' though? The script would be flipped.

#43 sopa

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:09

I wonder if that is true that Ferrari had a pre-agreement with Ricciardo? It would show that Ferrari at least had some interest in him. It would also show that Vettel couldn't veto him, if Ferrari was prepared to have some kind of pre-agreement with Ricciardo and consider him as a future option.

 

But then Leclerc arrived, who was a spanner in the works. He had a few stunning races nearing mid-season and he was Marchionne's so-called golden child. So yeah, that was it for Ricciardo.

 

But in the end nobody here still quite knows, how did it exactly play out. A lot of conjecture.

 

---

 

By the way. I would add that people like to complain that Ferrari didn't hire Ricciardo (adding "grr that damn Seb grr" frustration on top of that), but what about Mercedes? Ferrari at least improved their line-up and hired Leclerc. So you can't really complain about their decisions. Meanwhile Mercedes still keeps Bottas. Ricciardo would have been an upgrade over him...


Edited by sopa, 03 December 2018 - 11:11.


#44 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:13

Mercedes have credit in the bank from the Hamilton - Rosberg years to be fair. Though another year of Bottas there isn't thrilling to say the least.

#45 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:13

Before his decision last summer to switch his allegiance from Red Bull to Renault for next season, the Australian driver had been in discussions with the Scuderia about possibly replacing Kimi Raikkonen for 2019.[/size]
 
In the end however, the talks fell through, with speculation that Ricciardo's financial demands had perhaps exceeded what Ferrari was prepared to offer.[/size]
 
http://f1i.com/news/...to-ferrari.html
 
To me that indicates multiple times. Don't know why you would only talk once about such a serious decision.



Why would Ferrari talk to Ricciardo multiple times when the Leclerc deal was already done?

#46 gowebber

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:32

Why would Ferrari talk to Ricciardo multiple times when the Leclerc deal was already done?


Because maybe it was decided before the last time he talked with Ferrari hence the last minute part? Why would they only talk once?

#47 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:37

Why would they only talk once?


Ricciardo: Got a seat for 2019? I haven't heard from you.
Ferrari: No, we have Leclerc.
Ricciardo: K thx, bye.

Edited by A3, 03 December 2018 - 11:37.


#48 Nonesuch

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:40

Why would Ferrari talk to Ricciardo multiple times when the Leclerc deal was already done?

 

Which deal, though. Ferrari probably has Leclerc under long-term contract (like other junior programs, also common with manufacturers in GT/WEC). The only question would have been whether to keep him at Sauber or promote him to Ferrari.



#49 lbennie

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:45

The max fans tripping over themselves to discredit this  :lol:

 

Don't be so insecure.



#50 A3

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 11:46

Which deal, though. Ferrari probably has Leclerc under long-term contract (like other junior programs, also common with manufacturers in GT/WEC). The only question would have been whether to keep him at Sauber or promote him to Ferrari.


I think you know what I mean.