129 replies to this topic

[Anja]

Let me just start with saying that I don't mean to bash Bottas here. He's had enough already. But with his "help", this season hit me hard with some realisations about historic F1 results and stats. Namely, just how much getting the right car influences how a certain driver will be regarded after years and decades. There are of course those who look at the past with more scrutiny and context, but they are the minority - most fans will just look at the numbers and draw conclusions from there. Bottas is an excellent example here. I have absolutely no doubt that at least half of the current and recent F1 drivers could match his results in that Mercedes. Yet many of them probably won't even get such a chance in their career and will leave the sport without any podiums and/or wins, fading into obscurity over the years, meanwhile down the line Bottas will be remembered as a multiple race winner, near the top echelons of F1 drivers. I know this is not some great discovery and many of you probably have that perspective already - I myself knew all of this on some level, in theory, but for whatever reason the full extent of it only came to me during this year. Thanks, Valtteri. 

 

Now, what about you? Will you come away from this recently finished F1 season with any lasting conclusions and realisations? Has anything changed the way you look at the sport in general or any of its many parts?

[sopa]

2018 taught me that Vettel is weaker under pressure than I had thought...

[P123]

The realisation should have been that there are plenty of Bottas's, and not many Hamiltons. I'd don't think he will be remembered among the top echelons of drivers based on a handful of victories. Is Webber? Is Irvine, Barichello, Massa? No, you have to achieve more than a few victories for that.

[P123]

As for 2018.... Max is ready to be a WDC, and a potential great.

[ConsiderAndGo]

That Leclerc is ready to fight at the very top.

 

That Hamilton is much, much better than I ever gave him credit for.

 

That Bottas is nothing more than your typical Coulthard, Massa, Fisichella type driver. 

[krapmeister]

That Red Bull still can't build 2 proper working cars...

[Anja]

The realisation should have been that there are plenty of Bottas's, and not many Hamiltons. I'd don't think he will be remembered among the top echelons of drivers based on a handful of victories. Is Webber? Is Irvine, Barichello, Massa? No, you have to achieve more than a few victories for that.

 

I specifically wrote "near" the top echelons but in the end you're right, ultimately what I meant that drivers like Bottas and those you mentioned are widely remembered as a class above your usual midfielder when there's really not much difference in skill, just equipment. 

[sopa]

The realisation should have been that there are plenty of Bottas's, and not many Hamiltons. I'd don't think he will be remembered among the top echelons of drivers based on a handful of victories. Is Webber? Is Irvine, Barichello, Massa? No, you have to achieve more than a few victories for that.

 

I think the point here is that those #2 drivers are remembered more than the likes of Heidfeld, Trulli, Hulkenberg, Perez, et al, who had no lesser ability, but didn't get the cars during the entirety of their careers, and thus have only meagre statistics compared to those "number twos" and thus look inferior.

[P123]

I specifically wrote "near" the top echelons but in the end you're right, ultimately what I meant that drivers like Bottas and those you mentioned are widely remembered as a class above your usual midfielder when there's really not much difference in skill, just equipment.

I broadly agree, but it can also put a bit of a negative on a drivers reputation. I've no doubt the likes of Hulk and Perez are just as good as Bottas, but Bottas's reputation has taken a bit of a kicking because he's in the spotlight and hasn't delivered anywhere near his teammate. Sometimes plugging away in the midfield shields a driver from that, and Bottas was a beneficiary with his clean sweep over Massa when teammates. Fisi was often viewed as the driver that just needed a car to show his worth, and then came up against Alonso, and also showed fragility wheel to wheel under pressure, such as Suzuka '05. Had he stayed as the 'what if' guy then we'd probably now view him a bit differently.

[P123]

I think the point here is that those #2 drivers are remembered more than the likes of Heidfeld, Trulli, Hulkenberg, Perez, et al, who had no lesser ability, but didn't get the cars during the entirety of their careers, and thus have only meagre statistics compared to those "number twos" and thus look inferior.

But are they remembered in a positive light?

[r4mses]

As for 2018.... Max is ready to be a WDC, and a potential great.

 

You got to be kidding?

[Taxi]

That a Formula 1 without hallo is much better looking but sadly it will never happen again. 

[sopa]

I broadly agree, but it can also put a bit of a negative on a drivers reputation. I've no doubt the likes of Hulk and Perez are just as good as Bottas, but Bottas's reputation has taken a bit of a kicking because he's in the spotlight and hasn't delivered anywhere near his teammate. Sometimes plugging away in the midfield shields a driver from that, and Bottas was a beneficiary with his clean sweep over Massa when teammates. Fisi was often viewed as the driver that just needed a car to show his worth, and then came up against Alonso, and also showed fragility wheel to wheel under pressure, such as Suzuka '05. Had he stayed as the 'what if' guy then we'd probably now view him a bit differently.

 

That's a fair enough point. 

 

Though I think the effect of having top cars would be more recognizable over longer period of time. To bring one example - people certainly remember Patrese for racing near the front and having some impressive drives, despite him dropping into #2 driver position often enough (to Piquet and Mansell). But... how many remember someone like Derek Warwick? Impressive drives in midfield and never got the best car. I think he is remembered less than Patrese.

[Loosenut]

That I prefer to watch highlights now, than a live race..

[OvDrone]

I learned that out of all Motorsport drivers out there, the person I mostly agree with and with whom I share most of my views on life is Lewis Hamilton ( except the whole christian thing ). His attitude and approach actually really helped me in my own personal struggles throughout this difficult year and I am very grateful for that. I am now happy to be a fan of someone who is actually immensely successful, instead of my usual underdog heroes. Come to think of it, Lewis still has some sort of maverick quality to him. It's his race and how he handles that in the environment in which he finds himself in, how his 'lifestyle' irks the faded dinosaurs in the paddock and how he is overlooked by his own country that makes him extremely relatable as a human being.

 

Can't wait to see what he achieves next. I will 110% be part of the ride and sending him my energy and passion.

[SenorSjon]

That no matter what they say, you still won't get used to the halo.

[absinthedude]

2018 showed me that Hamilton has matured into a true great, while Vettel has become more error-prone. Bottas crumbled after losing his likely win mid-season. Both drivers need to do some work on the psychological side of things. 

[Grippy]

I realised I really want a drive-through penalty for drivers going off track onto tarmac after Vettel went off onto gravel while other drivers in other races went off onto tarmac, only losing a few seconds in the process.

 

F1 got really expensive between Eddie Jordan spending £1 million for a year and now.

 

Torro Rosso's Honda engine usage is nowhere near William's 200(approx)  BMW engines used in a season.

 

Stroll is the driver I can't "read", there's not been much coverage of him on track but the bits I have seen going wheel to wheel in twisty sections shows he is maybe better than thought, his podium was maybe lucky but he still had to be there to take advantage.

 

Perez and Ocon don't like letting the other pass them. I find it entertaining that Ocon going around the outside and getting hit is "OMG, he's an idiot for trying around the outside" whereas if Alonso goes around the outside it's "OMG, he's a driving God".

 

I don't mind Ferrari getting special payment consider home/dealer's advantage.

 

Enjoyable season, Hope next year is as good.

[ANF]

One thing that 2018 taught me – again – is that close racing is more important than high cornering speeds and lateral G-forces.

[JHSingo]

That no matter how good things look for Ferrari, they'll always find a way to **** up. Actually, that was what the 2017 season taught me as well.

 

Next time Ferrari is leading the championship, I'll just wait for the inevitable implosion rather than going along with the narrative that they're going to win it.

[Tsarwash]

That Charlie is quite happy to allow Liberty to turn it into a full contact sport. 

[messy]

That Lewis Hamilton is genuinely one of the best of all time. For all he's spent the last few years racking up the wins and titles, for me there's always been a massive question mark over his ultimate place among the greats because Mercedes have been utterly dominant since 2014 and all he's ever had to do is beat his team-mate. Does edging Nico Rosberg in the dominant car make you a 'great'? Nope. It just doesn't. Those races where the two Mercedes drivers have just criuised off in 1-2 formation mean nothing to me. It's part of the game, sure, but if we're talking 'where does he stack up against the greats' then for me that's totally inconclusive, at times cheap success. But the last two years Mercedes have lost their dominance, you're left with a reasonably well balanced head to head between the two 'greatest' recent drivers Hamilton and Vettel - and Lewis has proved just how great he is by being stronger, more consistent, bulletproof under pressure, able to win when he has the worse car.....point proven Lewis. It's not his fault his car was a second a lap clear of the field from 2014-16 obviously, but he's shown his real level now and it's pretty frightening. 

[MikeV1987]

McLaren were the problem, not Honda.

Lewis is one of the greatest of all time.

Indycar is better

Edited by MikeV1987, 03 December 2018 - 13:37.

[jonpollak]

The 2018 F1 season has taught me that INDYCAR is much more compelling and fun than F1.

[jonpollak]

And that MikeV1987 is faster than me.

[AlexPrime]

Nothing. To me it was a season like any other in which my favorite driver does not win. I can't make any conclusions based on one year, not for Seb, not for Bottas. Nico seemed destined to be a Barrichello after 2015 and became a champ only 12 months later. Merc and Lewis are all time greats, but that's not new knowledge. 
Nothing extraordinary in this season for me. At all.

[THEWALL]

That the whole F1 cars are now faster thing doesn't mean squat.

 

That Pirelli are still c**p and that them being renewed tells us that F1's stakeholders are really uncapable/unwilling to change F1.

 

That Liberty and Brawn have so far achieved nothing in regards to improving F1.

 

That there's a lot of hate for Vettel in this forum.

[JHSingo]

That Pirelli are still c**p and that them being renewed tells us that F1's stakeholders are really uncapable/unwilling to change F1.

 

That's not entirely fair, Pirelli are doing what is asked of them. It's the sport that can't make its mind up. We have phases where people ask for durable tyres that drivers can "push" on, that inevitably lead to every race being a dull one stopper, then that leads to phases where people ask for tyres that degrade more, then complain that they degrade too much and that drivers can't "race", which then leads back to phases of having more durable tyres where every race is a dull one stopper...

[AnR]

That a Merc domination only ends when they leave the sport

[Nonesuch]

That next year's Autosport Livery Competition should definitely use the Indycar template.

That there are a lot of people who channel their disappointment about the championship by being comically over-critical of the only man to make it at least somewhat interesting.

That the Halo is every bit as horrible as feared.

That compared to other series F1 still has no clue what it wants to be, and is much closer to a tipping point than many want to admit.

That FOM has found a way to do a decent* job with its online video content; from highlights to radio-clips to some special features.

_{*It won't be 'good' until they dump that annoying shouting English guy.}

Edited by Nonesuch, 03 December 2018 - 14:56.

[Garndell]

The 2018 season has taught me that pundits are still populist fools, that Sky still can't figure out they have some pretty crap presenters and that if F1 isn't broken in some way then it's not F1 at all.

 

That's not entirely fair, Pirelli are doing what is asked of them. It's the sport that can't make its mind up. We have phases where people ask for durable tyres that drivers can "push" on, that inevitably lead to every race being a dull one stopper, then that leads to phases where people ask for tyres that degrade more, then complain that they degrade too much and that drivers can't "race", which then leads back to phases of having more durable tyres where every race is a dull one stopper...

 

Which is one of the reasons I suggested having durable tyres they can push on with a mandated maximum number of laps to each compound.  Solves the pushing problem and the "dull 1 stop races" albeit with a manufactured tinge to it.

Edited by Garndell, 03 December 2018 - 15:05.

[Marklar]

I think the point here is that those #2 drivers are remembered more than the likes of Heidfeld, Trulli, Hulkenberg, Perez, et al, who had no lesser ability, but didn't get the cars during the entirety of their careers, and thus have only meagre statistics compared to those "number twos" and thus look inferior.

Obviously hard to say now, but those "number twos" are usually remembered in a negative way, while those drivers who never got a fair chance are more remembered in a neutral, sometimes even positive way.

I think - on a different level - you can take Alonso as an example: Spending the last four years at the back of the field *might* have been better for his legacy than driving in a top team and getting beaten (assuming that would have happened).

I do agree that the number twos will be remembered "more", but "better"? I doubt that.

Edited by Marklar, 03 December 2018 - 15:12.

[noriaki]

I was fairly negative about the halo to begin with, but am not even noticing it now. 

 

Indycar is better

 

The 2018 F1 season has taught me that INDYCAR is much more compelling and fun than F1.

 

Thought you had learned it much longer ago 

 

---

 

I also disagree with the notion in the first post. Whilst "Coulthard/Barrichello" is still used as an insult on various F1 forums (which I think is grossly unfair to both) - contrastively people like Alesi, Trulli, Bellof, hell even Kubica and Nannini as drivers who were perceived never to have gotten the chance, are remembered pretty fondly. No doubt that Bottas will receive the same "Barrichello" treatment in the future should he not improve next season - whereas Hulkenberg's legacy will probably become another great "what if". 

[HeadFirst]

Moving to Canada fron the USA at the summer break, I learned that side by side (commercials/the race) is no substitute for a commercial free race.

[pitlanepalpatine]

Obviously hard to say now, but those "number twos" are usually remembered in a negative way, while those drivers who never got a fair chance are more remembered in a neutral, sometimes even positive way.

I think - on a different level - you can take Alonso as an example: Spending the last four years at the back of the field *might* have been better for his legacy than driving in a top team and getting beaten (assuming that would have happened).

I do agree that the number twos will be remembered "more", but "better"? I doubt that.

 

I agree with the Alonso analogy. Moving to Mclaren seemed like a good idea because anything was better than sitting in a Ferrari but if he spent the last 4 years coming second to Lewis, which could well have happened since Ferrari could have potentially cracked under having Alonso as a lead driver, then it would have been the Ferrari that was garbage because of Nando's "negative" influence. What will be interesting to see is how Bottas will affect Hamiltons legacy if and when Verstappen starts winning championships.

 

2018 has thought me under promise and over deliver seems to be the way to go to win championships.

[Lights]

1. That the racer mindset of a driver approaching a corner is changing because of alterations to kerbing and run-off. Knowing that the edge is not really the edge is not how a driver should race. Drivers should have the ability to always be on the edge. It's an underexposed issue because while it affects the racing, not many people realize it, including (especially) the people in charge. It worries me that we are in the process of completely removing this, for me quite critical, aspect of F1 racing. 
2. That Johnny Herbert isn't useless after all. Because he's the one that pointed out the above to me.

Edited by Lights, 03 December 2018 - 16:46.

[lustigson]

What I learned from the 2018 F1 season? That Vettel's and Ferrari's screw-ups got more under my skin than I wanted to admit. Watching another one of their mishaps actually ruined my Sundays up to the point that I didn't watch the final four Grands Prix. 

[Ben1445]

- Rosberg was a lot better than people gave him credit for 

- I don't shrivel up and die if I miss a Grand Prix (shock horror)  

- That I'm not entirely convinced I'll be watching in 2019 - at least not avidly. 

[A3]

I have learned that the entire 2018 season can be summed up in one hilarious 6 second gif:

https://gfycat.com/U...olescentAnchovy

Edited by A3, 04 December 2018 - 09:16.

[Beri]

- Rosberg was a lot better than people gave him credit for 
- I don't shrivel up and die if I miss a Grand Prix (shock horror)  
- That I'm not entirely convinced I'll be watching in 2019 - at least not avidly.

1) Based upon..? The fact that Mercedes was more dominant during his era?
2) I died a bit inside when I missed a Grand Prix the first time myself.
3) From missing a Grand Prix to not watching at all. What happened?

[Ben1445]

1) Based upon..? The fact that Mercedes was more dominant during his era?
2) I died a bit inside when I missed a Grand Prix the first time myself.
3) From missing a Grand Prix to not watching at all. What happened?

- Based on his consistent recording of being able to take the fight to Lewis Hamilton, now widely considered one fo the greatest of all time, and having the mental strength to up his game and take a world title against him. Not to bash Bottas, but he has so far been unable to do that. Simple really.

- I used to. This year was apparently different. 

- Just a slow slide into 'wellll I'm caring less and less for the major players and it looks unlikely to change anytime soon and I'm feeling less attachment to F1 now and it is going to highlights only in the UK and frankly I'm just having more fun watching other forms of racing' 

Edited by Ben1445, 04 December 2018 - 09:25.

[Nonesuch]

1) Based upon..? The fact that Mercedes was more dominant during his era?

 

Sure it was easier for him to finish second, but that's the thing: he didn't just finish second. He took 20 wins to Hamilton's 31, and 26 poles to Hamilton's 30.

 

And there's the part where he won a title.

[Traction]

- Rosberg was a lot better than people gave him credit for 

^^ this is true

[Beri]

- Based on his consistent recording of being able to take the fight to Lewis Hamilton, now widely considered one fo the greatest of all time, and having the mental strength to up his game and take a world title against him. Not to bash Bottas, but he has so far been unable to do that. Simple really.
- I used to. This year was apparently different. 
- Just a slow slide into 'wellll I'm caring less and less for the major players and it looks unlikely to change anytime soon and I'm feeling less attachment to F1 now and it is going to highlights only in the UK and frankly I'm just having more fun watching other forms of racing'

1) I can see your point. But I will have to add that Mercedes was really dominant during Rosbergs days. Its somewhat different for Bottas now. Not that I want to downplay the feat Rosberg delivered. But it is telling that I keep on forgetting Rosberg becoming a champion. I even have to think hard on it what year it was. This coming for a guy that can name all the champions in chronological order off the top of his head.
2) More boring? Not exciting enough?
3) Sounds like a yes to point 2.

Edited by Beri, 04 December 2018 - 09:35.

[sopa]

It's interesting, how Rosberg reputation has turned around. I remember post-2016. People called him a lucky champion, who won just due to reliability. The when he announced his retirement, Rosberg was called a coward, who was running away from Hamilton, etc.

 

Fast forward 2 seasons and people greatly miss Rosberg and consider him a great - not quite as great as Lewis obviously - talent.

[Ben1445]

1) I can see your point. But I will have to add that Mercedes was really dominant during Rosbergs days. Its somewhat different for Bottas now. Not that I want to downplay the feat Rosberg delivered. But it is telling that I keep on forgetting Rosberg becoming a champion. I even have to think hard on it what year it was. This coming for a guy that can name all the champions in chronological order off the top of his head.
2) More boring? Not exciting enough?
3) Sounds like a yes to point 2.

I'll be honest, I think that's more telling of you than it is of Rosberg. 

[Beri]

It's interesting, how Rosberg reputation has turned around. I remember post-2016. People called him a lucky champion, who won just due to reliability. The when he announced his retirement, Rosberg was called a coward, who was running away from Hamilton, etc.

Fast forward 2 seasons and people greatly miss Rosberg and consider him a great - not quite as great as Lewis obviously - talent.

So it seems.

I'll be honest, I think that's more telling of you than it is of Rosberg.

Well, yes that may be. But I cant get rid of the feeling that Rosberg got his championship because Lewis was not at his best that season. Count in the bad luck for Lewis at Sepang at the moment where he found his best again and there you go; Rosberg crowned as champion. And I know many people think the same. Was Rosberg good? Yes he was. But at Rosbergs best day, Hamilton would still win.

[Ben1445]

Well, yes that may be. But I cant get rid of the feeling that Rosberg got his championship because Lewis was not at his best that season. Count in the bad luck for Lewis at Sepang at the moment where he found his best again and there you go; Rosberg crowned as champion. And I know many people think the same. Was Rosberg good? Yes he was. But at Rosbergs best day, Hamilton would still win.

Well, if it helps, the point I put forward was that we can now see Rosberg was a lot better than people gave him credit for, not that he was better than Lewis Hamilton. If you like, I think the overly and unfairly negative views held against him are fading and being replaced with more measured opinions.

[BuddyHolly]

That a Merc domination only ends when they leave the sport

..or when they've made the 'sport' so mind-bogglingly dull, predictable and boring that only Merc fans remain?

[Henri Greuter]

I have learned this year that Lewis Hamilton acts like an awful spoiled little brat on the few occasions that things don't happen as he wants it, possibly because of being so spoiled by now because of having only so few hiccups, let alone retirements. Best examples of that spoiled brat behaviour we got this year how he complains any time when he thinks that strategy has gone wrong and on one occasion after losing a race because of a strategy error it was necessary for the main Mercedes strategist to come on the on-board radio to apologize and cool Lewis down. Another perfect example was the first qualifying session in Germany when the car let him down (for only the second time in the season) and we got to see all that melodramatic opera comica theatre of bending over the car and kneeling down next to it and that "Why me, why me please God why me!" behaviour. Maybe something typical Bristish?? (Remembering that other drama drag queen of the past: Nigel Mansell???)

Edit: The Brish comment is uncalled for and should not have been made: apologies and explanation of why I made this comment and what is was based upon on the next page.




I can't wait to see what's gonna happen should Hamilton have a season like Ricciardo had this year....

As good and the outstanding driver of the season Lewis was this year (also for me), this kind of behaviour, as well as the fact that he needed Bottas as a wingman on some occasions (which in the end cost Bottas the 3rd place in the season and all the critisism on him for failing to win third place) I can't rate Lewis' season worthy a 10 out of a 10. A 9 at best, not more.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 04 December 2018 - 15:15.