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What has the 2018 F1 season taught you?


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#51 Sennasational

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 12:21

I have learned this year that Lewis Hamilton acts like an awful spoiled little brat on the few occasions that things don't happen as he wants it, possibly because of being so spoiled by now because of having only so few hiccups, let alone retirements. Best examples of that spoiled brat behaviour we got this year how he complains any time when he thinks that strategy has gone wrong and on one occasion after losing a race because of a strategy error it was necessary for the main Mercedes strategist to come on the on-board radio to apologize and cool Lewis down. Another perfect example was the first qualifying session in Germany when the car let him down (for only the second time in the season) and we got to see all that melodramatic opera comica theatre of bending over the car and kneeling down next to it and that "Why me, why me please God why me!" behaviour. Maybe something typical Bristish?? (Remembering that other drama drag queen of the past: Nigel Mansell???)
I can't wait to see what's gonna happen should Hamilton have a season like Ricciardo had this year....

As good and the outstanding driver of the season Lewis was this year (also for me), this kind of behaviour, as well as the fact that he needed Bottas as a wingman on some occasions (which in the end cost Bottas the 3rd place in the season and all the critisism on him for failing to win third place) I can't rate Lewis' season worthy a 10 out of a 10. A 9 at best, not more.

 

I have learnt that some people will still desperately try to find something to criticize Lewis for. I have also learnt not to read posts by Henri Greuter because they're horribly bitter and clearly offensive to entire nationalities. 



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#52 P123

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 12:24

..or when they've made the 'sport' so mind-bogglingly dull, predictable and boring that only Merc fans remain?


Heheh! Perhaps your bleating should be aimed at Ferrari, who despite having the car to win it for the second season in a row yet again fumbled it badly for a variety of reasons.

#53 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 12:26

I think the OP is a bit harsh on Bottas. He showed good promise before going to Mercedes (against Maldonado and Massa) and could have won some races this year anyway without bad luck. Also let's not forget that Hamilton is generally considered a great these days and if we go by this one year the same conclusion could have been drawn about Vettel after 2014.

#54 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 12:31

I think the OP is a bit harsh on Bottas. He showed good promise before going to Mercedes (against Maldonado and Massa) and could have won some races this year anyway without bad luck. Also let's not forget that Hamilton is generally considered a great these days and if we go by this one year the same conclusion could have been drawn about Vettel after 2014.



.... what? Vettel was a 4x world champion by then. How can you even compare that?

#55 P123

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 12:34

.... what? Vettel was a 4x world champion by then. How can you even compare that?


I suspect he means if you take that season in isolation, as in is it fair to damn Bottas for one bad season, after a clean sweep over Massa and showing well in his first year at Merc? He has next year to bounce back.

#56 Beri

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 12:38

Well, if it helps, the point I put forward was that we can now see Rosberg was a lot better than people gave him credit for, not that he was better than Lewis Hamilton. If you like, I think the overly and unfairly negative views held against him are fading and being replaced with more measured opinions.


I cant see it that way. That was what I meant.

#57 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 13:57

I have learned this year that Lewis Hamilton acts like an awful spoiled little brat on the few occasions that things don't happen as he wants it, possibly because of being so spoiled by now because of having only so few hiccups, let alone retirements. Best examples of that spoiled brat behaviour we got this year how he complains any time when he thinks that strategy has gone wrong and on one occasion after losing a race because of a strategy error it was necessary for the main Mercedes strategist to come on the on-board radio to apologize and cool Lewis down. Another perfect example was the first qualifying session in Germany when the car let him down (for only the second time in the season) and we got to see all that melodramatic opera comica theatre of bending over the car and kneeling down next to it and that "Why me, why me please God why me!" behaviour. Maybe something typical Bristish?? (Remembering that other drama drag queen of the past: Nigel Mansell???)
I can't wait to see what's gonna happen should Hamilton have a season like Ricciardo had this year....

As good and the outstanding driver of the season Lewis was this year (also for me), this kind of behaviour, as well as the fact that he needed Bottas as a wingman on some occasions (which in the end cost Bottas the 3rd place in the season and all the critisism on him for failing to win third place) I can't rate Lewis' season worthy a 10 out of a 10. A 9 at best, not more.

 
 

I have learnt that some people will still desperately try to find something to criticize Lewis for. I have also learnt not to read posts by Henri Greuter because they're horribly bitter and clearly offensive to entire nationalities.



OK, point taken.

To everyone who still reads my posts and feels offended by the nationalists comment within my post.

My remark "Maybe something typical British", which intended with some sarcasm and is based on only based on the drama queen behaviour of two British drivers of then and now is indeed uncalled for given the fact that in between those two drivers there have been a number of other British drivers have participated in F1 and not acted like the world being against them in case of a disappointment to cope with.

It just happened that the two drivers who I, right now do remember the best of all for such behaviour are indeed British. Had this not been the case and them have been of different nationalities I would not have made the connection to begin with, let alone have made the comment in which I mention the nationality. But it was the case and hence the thought came up and I made it. But in hindsight and for reasons already given, I should not have done so. For that I apologize.

I have nothing personal against drivers and/or Britain, my critisizm on Lewis would have been the same had he had another nationality and is based on what I see him doing, not because of his nationality. As was the case with Mansell BTW.


Henri

#58 Gary Davies

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 14:05

2018 taught me that Vettel is weaker under pressure than I had thought...

Hmm. Won't be long before someone posts something to the effect that this is another Vettel bashing thread. Ho hum.

 

That said, this season has reinforced that he is as weak under pressure as I've long felt him to be. 

 

However... I do pay him a lot of respect for apparently being a great Monty Python fan. Goodonya Seb!



#59 Nonesuch

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 14:09

It's interesting, how Rosberg reputation has turned around. I remember post-2016. People called him a lucky champion, who won just due to reliability. The when he announced his retirement, Rosberg was called a coward, who was running away from Hamilton, etc.

 

Those 'people' were a very specific group of folks, namely the people who were upset about their favourite driver becoming one of the rare champions to lose a title to his team-mate and, as a result of Rosberg calling it quits, being denied the chance to 'correct' this in 2017.

 

On the whole, Rosberg got a lot of credit for sticking to his efforts to beat Hamilton over many years, for running it so close that the title was decided in the last race twice, for speaking eloquently about the strains this put on him, and for overall being much more of a match for Hamilton than many had anticipated going into 2013.

 



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#60 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 14:32

I suspect he means if you take that season in isolation, as in is it fair to damn Bottas for one bad season, after a clean sweep over Massa and showing well in his first year at Merc? He has next year to bounce back.

Exactly. It doesn't matter that Vettel had previous success. It just shows that a season like that doesn't make a driver poor. Maybe Bottas too could win 4 titles in the right circumstances?

#61 Clatter

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 14:44

I think the OP is a bit harsh on Bottas. He showed good promise before going to Mercedes (against Maldonado and Massa) and could have won some races this year anyway without bad luck. Also let's not forget that Hamilton is generally considered a great these days and if we go by this one year the same conclusion could have been drawn about Vettel after 2014.

 


Many mid-field drivers have shown promise over the years, but come up short when they make it to a top team.

#62 sopa

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 14:49

Exactly. It doesn't matter that Vettel had previous success. It just shows that a season like that doesn't make a driver poor. Maybe Bottas too could win 4 titles in the right circumstances?

 

I see, where you are aiming with this comparison, but... in terms of performance I consider Bottas more of a Webber than Vettel myself.



#63 P123

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 16:52

Those 'people' were a very specific group of folks, namely the people who were upset about their favourite driver becoming one of the rare champions to lose a title to his team-mate and, as a result of Rosberg calling it quits, being denied the chance to 'correct' this in 2017.

On the whole, Rosberg got a lot of credit for sticking to his efforts to beat Hamilton over many years, for running it so close that the title was decided in the last race twice, for speaking eloquently about the strains this put on him, and for overall being much more of a match for Hamilton than many had anticipated going into 2013.


Indeed, it is rare for two championship capable drivers to be paired in the same team, whilst having a championship capable car. Schumacher for example was beaten three years on the bounce the first time he came up against one in the same car. I jest, slightly... but you can type any old shite based on loose facts, no context, and dress it up.

Nico retired because of the effort it took to beat Hamilton, which he wasn't up for repeating. That's not exactly some negative for Hamilton, despite him being one of the 'few champions to lose a title to his teammate' (see above). We all know how 2016 went, as uncomfortable as it is for that other group of folks, different to that group of folks you mention. :) But it's extra kudos for Nico- Hamilton did not go missing.

Let's not forget the slating Rosberg was getting back in 2015 for not beating a certain driver, so we shouldn't pretend Nico was always eulogised, nor were it just one element who saw fit to criticise him. Much the same as the attitude to Bottas now. But if Merc were still clear ahead as in 2014 to 2016, then Bottas's poorer efforts would still have yielded the odd second or third, and kept up the appearance of closeness to his teammate, at least in the points table.

#64 David Lightman

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 17:07

That Vettel is a massive choker, Leclerc is a future star, Bottas is very average and both Haas drivers should be driving touring cars. I won't mention the guy who drove an orange car at his own pace.



#65 THEWALL

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 17:56

That's not entirely fair, Pirelli are doing what is asked of them. It's the sport that can't make its mind up. We have phases where people ask for durable tyres that drivers can "push" on, that inevitably lead to every race being a dull one stopper, then that leads to phases where people ask for tyres that degrade more, then complain that they degrade too much and that drivers can't "race", which then leads back to phases of having more durable tyres where every race is a dull one stopper...

But I'm not on board any of those trains. What is making F1 dull is not too many or too few stops, but the lack of on-track racing. Call it what you want, the end result is that F1, all the stakeholders, have been unable to make that crucial aspect better. Hopefully, if they are asked the right thing, Pirelli can produce the right product...



#66 Spillage

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 18:03

That the big rule changes generating most debate are usually forgotten by the end of the year. I barely even noticed the halo after the third race.



#67 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 18:37

- what looks like a tight fight isn't always as tight as you'd think

- it's easy to throw away a chance at the title, even the great ones can do it

- lewis can continue to improve when you think he is already great. Truly a great driver


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 04 December 2018 - 18:37.


#68 loki

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 18:41

It's taught me that many racing fans have no clue as to how administration and bankruptcy work...



#69 JensonsButton

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 18:42

Simply that even though I’m not his biggest fan by any stretch, there’s no doubting that Lewis is an all time great. Without question.

#70 Atreiu

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 18:56

Everything needs to change.



#71 FNG

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 19:02

I learned this year that I CAN get used to the halo even though I still dislike it.

 

The engines still sound like a complete disaster and pathetic.

 

I'm even more sick and tired of the Merc dominance

 

Vettel wasted a title contending car with **** driving

 

Bottas is not that good and Rosberg really was that much better than people gave him credit for regardless of what Hamilton fans still say.

 

Hamilton IS that good although a tad spoiled

 

McLaren is completely and utterly lost but the Honda was indeed crap for the first 2.5 years

 

and finally I have learned that I am praying to god that Honda build a good engine so merc can be knocked off or else I am totally tuning out.


Edited by FNG, 04 December 2018 - 19:09.


#72 Disgrace

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 19:17

That I prefer series with track limits.



#73 ernestomodena

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 19:30

I have learned that when german mentality is used in a racing team they dominate until they have enough. It was so before ww2. It was so when Porsche is doing le mans. Same story with Audi and now Mercedes again.


Edited by ernestomodena, 04 December 2018 - 19:51.


#74 ClubmanGT

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 19:45

That Red Bull doesn't give a **** about drivers from NZ or Australia and will kneecap them or throw them under the bus to support their European drivers. 



#75 Grippy

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 20:35

With Webber, Ricciardo and Hartley having driven for Red Bull I'd suggest they've done quite well for antipodian drivers compared to the other teams ( I haven't looked at the stats though).



#76 Fatgadget

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 21:34

As for 2018.... Max is ready to be a WDC, and a potential great.

That is brave of you Podium! :eek:

Fancy a little wager ? :p



#77 Nonesuch

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 21:35

Nico retired because of the effort it took to beat Hamilton, which he wasn't up for repeating.

 
Indeed, and the crucial part there being that he achieved his goal of winning the title. Rosberg went toe-to-toe with Hamilton three years in a row and showed no signs of slowing down - even coming close to Vettel's all-time record for most wins in a row in the process. He could do that because he was very keen to become the champion, which he eventually did. Winning that first title obviously, or rather apparently, meant much more to Rosberg than winning a second title - so on balance he decided it wasn't worth the time, energy, and required dedication to go for a repeat performance.

 

Some will see that as a weakness, others won't. I think there's something to be said for both, just not to the overly dramatic level some took it.
 

Let's not forget the slating Rosberg was getting back in 2015 for not beating a certain driver, so we shouldn't pretend Nico was always eulogised, nor were it just one element who saw fit to criticise him.

 
True enough. It seems to me that Rosberg in 2015 got a bit of the same treatment Vettel did this year, because he was the only person who could make the championship interesting and... well, he didn't.
 
That was certainly fair enough. He should have done better, because he showed before and after that he could. :up:
 
Let's hope Vettel does the same. Or anyone driving for Ferrari, really. :cool:



#78 Nonesuch

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 21:37

That Red Bull doesn't give a **** about drivers from NZ or Australia and will kneecap them or throw them under the bus to support their European drivers. 

 

They had several drive in race and title winning cars. That's more than can be said for most, if not all, other current teams.

 

That the drivers didn't quite measure up to their European team-mates, and ended up playing second fiddle in some cases, probably had more to do with the performance issue and not their respective nationalities.



#79 sabjit

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 22:00

That its not all about the car and that the driver can have a much bigger impact than I previously thought.



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#80 jgrwill

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 22:11

That Mercedes and Ferrari and Red Bull lapping the others almost in every race is 😴😴😡

Top ten drivers could be potential WDC in a Mercedes...

That I would love to see Hamilton in a not potential race winning car, to make him convince me that he his more than a great qualifier...

That the midfield had the most action..
That removing the top 3 teams would have created a wild 2018 season..

Edited by jgrwill, 04 December 2018 - 22:11.


#81 Atreiu

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 22:20

That Red Bull doesn't give a **** about drivers from NZ or Australia and will kneecap them or throw them under the bus to support their European drivers. 

 

The devilish plan even hires them to give them hope.



#82 noikeee

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 22:23

That I would love to see Hamilton in a not potential race winning car, to make him convince me that he his more than a great qualifier...


First half of 2009. Settled the argument for me.

#83 sabjit

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 22:29

That Mercedes and Ferrari and Red Bull lapping the others almost in every race is

Top ten drivers could be potential WDC in a Mercedes...

That I would love to see Hamilton in a not potential race winning car, to make him convince me that he his more than a great qualifier...

That the midfield had the most action..
That removing the top 3 teams would have created a wild 2018 season..

 

 

I have to find this an odd complaint given we've had so many years of just one team being able to win races.



#84 BUFFY

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 23:55

 But if Merc were still clear ahead as in 2014 to 2016, then Bottas's poorer efforts would still have yielded the odd second or third, and kept up the appearance of closeness to his teammate, at least in the points table.

This.

 

When comparing Bottas & Rosberg, not enough consideration is being given to the differences between the W08/W09, and  in particular the W07.

 

Rosberg won his title in the vastly dominant W07. It's advantage over the rest of the field was so large, all  Rosberg usually had to do was beat his teammate. He didn't have to worry about others on the grid.

 

For Bottas in the W08 & especially W09 ,things are very different. The car is no longer dominant. The SF71H is a match.  Even the RBs are knocking at the door. This means, Bottas has to not only beat his teammate, but also Vettel, Raik, Verstappen & Ricciardo too. Bottas has a harder task than Rosberg ever did.

 

According to Mark Hughes, Hamilton's average qualli gap over Rosberg, in 2016, was -0.169.

Karun Chandok released some stats today that showed Hamilton's quali gap to Bottas this year was -0.165.  

Virtually no difference. Bottas is looking to be just as quick as Rosberg over 1 lap.

Back in 2016, a gap of  -0.169 would still bag Rosberg P2, because the W07 was miles ahead the rest of the field. It was in a league of its own. No other car could get close.  But in 2018, for Bottas, his -0.165 gap would probably only be good enough for P4.  Vettel, Verstappen etc would usually step into that gap between Hamilton & Bottas.

In 2016, Hamilton beat Rosberg in quali by 12-3 (removing all sessions where either driver was unable to compete equally e.g. China, Hungary etc). In 2018, Hamilton beat Bottas by 14-5. So again, Bottas's stats actually stack up very well when compared to Rosberg over 1 lap.

 

I genuinely don't remember Rosberg's racecraft as being any better or worse than Bottas's. But during 2014-2016, because of the car's dominance, Rosberg was rarely in a position where he needed to fight/overtake/defend against the rest of the field. And the battle between the Merc drivers was usually over after turn 1. Whoever came out of the battle down to turn 1 ahead, normally went onto win the race untroubled. With Bottas it's different. He's regularly fighting other drivers, so his deficiencies get exposed more. And a poor day at the office for Bottas, means finishing way down the order.  While a poor day at the office for Rosberg, was still rewarded with a  P2 or P3 behind Hamilton - such was the size of the W07's advantage to the rest of the field..



#85 andrewf1

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 00:26

As for 2018.... Max is ready to be a WDC, and a potential great.

 

Wouldn't have said that during the first half of the season, when he was crashing and ruining races every other weekend.

 

And that was just self-imposed pressure - the Red Bull was not a championship winning car this year but Max was anxious to get ahead and prove himself.

It remains to be seen how he'll handle genuine pressure with a WDC at stake.

 

He has time on his side, but he's gonna have to let go of that "I'll never change" stupidity and arrogance that every person who has ever lived has uttered during their early twenties only to be proven wrong a couple of years down the road.

Once he does that, he'll be ready for a WDC.



#86 BUFFY

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 00:54

Top ten drivers could be potential WDC in a Mercedes...

 

Perhaps in the Mercs of 2014-2016, yes. But not in the Mercs of 2017 & 2018. The Merc car dominance of 2014, 2015, 2016 is well and truly over.

 

Perhaps you need to rewatch the 2018 races.The Ferrari & Merc cars were very evenly matched. There's a reason why almost every expert analysis concluded the cars were about equal. For example, according to AuMS the SF71H was better in 11 out of 21 races and they were seperated by less than 0.1 seconds.  

 

One could even push this further and say Vettel had the best car in 2018  because, unlike Hamilton, Vettel had near bullet proof reliability.

 

Ferrari had a car that was more than capable of taking this year's championships. They ran Merc pretty close in 2017 too. 

 

I actually think Hamilton would have won  in either the Merc or the Ferrari.  And that's a view shared by many -  even an ex-Ferrari President   

https://www.motorspo...m/news/id/20920


Edited by BUFFY, 05 December 2018 - 01:22.


#87 Reddington

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 03:35

2018:

 

* Showed that McLaren is in way more trouble than most thought, themselves included.

* Showed that Ferrari is very Italian again.

* Showed that Liberty, however they might be working in the background to 'fix' Formula 1, are very much into show, graphics, logos and other flashy stuff.

* Showed that Lewis was the one to beat, throughout the season.

* Showed that RBR needs to work on their reliability.

* Showed that Leclerc deserves his chance.

* Showed that Cyril never learns.

* Showed that it takes quite a bit of money if you want your son to be in a relatively competitive car.

* Showed that Williams is in real danger.

* Showed that the press, F1 websites in particular, are getting truly aggravating with click-bait and nonsense.

* Showed that fans are drinking the Cool-Aide when reading the press.

* Showed that even when we whine about the state of F1, we are still passionate enough about it to spend time on a Formula 1 (well, autosport) related forum.


Edited by Reddington, 05 December 2018 - 03:37.


#88 Rjpscr

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 03:45

That there are 2 different classes racing at the same time like in sports cars in F1 and F1.5 



#89 jgrwill

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:08

I have to find this an odd complaint given we've had so many years of just one team being able to win races.


Right !! But how many teams have made it to the podium the last .... lets say 10 years...

My dream F1 would be that other teams outside top 3 on some tracks had the chance to fight for podium..
not only on a lucky day....

#90 RECKLESS

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:52

That for some people, somehow, the most intriguing "vs" is Bottas vs Rosberg.

#91 RedBaron

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 07:00

Rosberg was a lot better than people gave him credit for

 

Probably better than he gave himself credit for, which is why he 'won and run'.

 

I know it's not a ROS v HAM comment but Hamilton has unquestionably raised his game since 2016, so the comparison between ROS and the HAM of 2018 isn't really a starter.



#92 RacingGreen

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 07:49

That there are 2 different classes racing at the same time like in sports cars in F1 and F1.5 

 

and that F1.5 is every bit as interesting as F1 as long as you don't forget it is a separate class and expect any of the teams to mix it with the elites,

and as much as I dislike spec series like Indycar and F2 I have to admit the generally better,

and DRS may increase the statistical number of overtakes but it doesn't improve the racing,

and F1 has lost it's way with these Hybrid oil tankers,

and the stewarding of other categories is more better than in F1,



#93 Rinehart

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 08:40

Liberty talk a lot. 

Bottas is a waste of a division 1 seat.

The Halo doesn't look too bad.

Max has anger issues.

Too many races.



#94 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 08:42

This.

 

When comparing Bottas & Rosberg, not enough consideration is being given to the differences between the W08/W09, and  in particular the W07.

 

Rosberg won his title in the vastly dominant W07. It's advantage over the rest of the field was so large, all  Rosberg usually had to do was beat his teammate. He didn't have to worry about others on the grid.

 

For Bottas in the W08 & especially W09 ,things are very different. The car is no longer dominant. The SF71H is a match.  Even the RBs are knocking at the door. This means, Bottas has to not only beat his teammate, but also Vettel, Raik, Verstappen & Ricciardo too. Bottas has a harder task than Rosberg ever did.

 

According to Mark Hughes, Hamilton's average qualli gap over Rosberg, in 2016, was -0.169.

Karun Chandok released some stats today that showed Hamilton's quali gap to Bottas this year was -0.165.  

Virtually no difference. Bottas is looking to be just as quick as Rosberg over 1 lap.

Back in 2016, a gap of  -0.169 would still bag Rosberg P2, because the W07 was miles ahead the rest of the field. It was in a league of its own. No other car could get close.  But in 2018, for Bottas, his -0.165 gap would probably only be good enough for P4.  Vettel, Verstappen etc would usually step into that gap between Hamilton & Bottas.

In 2016, Hamilton beat Rosberg in quali by 12-3 (removing all sessions where either driver was unable to compete equally e.g. China, Hungary etc). In 2018, Hamilton beat Bottas by 14-5. So again, Bottas's stats actually stack up very well when compared to Rosberg over 1 lap.

 

I genuinely don't remember Rosberg's racecraft as being any better or worse than Bottas's. But during 2014-2016, because of the car's dominance, Rosberg was rarely in a position where he needed to fight/overtake/defend against the rest of the field. And the battle between the Merc drivers was usually over after turn 1. Whoever came out of the battle down to turn 1 ahead, normally went onto win the race untroubled. With Bottas it's different. He's regularly fighting other drivers, so his deficiencies get exposed more. And a poor day at the office for Bottas, means finishing way down the order.  While a poor day at the office for Rosberg, was still rewarded with a  P2 or P3 behind Hamilton - such was the size of the W07's advantage to the rest of the field..

This is a bit strange. Bottas is nowhere near racing Hamilton most of the races, let alone beat him. Why worry about what Vettel & others are doing if he's nowhere near Hamilton? I remember Rosberg was near Hamilton. Sometimes a bit in front, sometimes a bit behind, sometimes rubbing wheels. You can't do that from 20 sec behind



#95 BUFFY

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 12:50

This is a bit strange. Bottas is nowhere near racing Hamilton most of the races, let alone beat him. Why worry about what Vettel & others are doing if he's nowhere near Hamilton? I remember Rosberg was near Hamilton. Sometimes a bit in front, sometimes a bit behind, sometimes rubbing wheels. You can't do that from 20 sec behind

Relative to Hamilton, Bottas was competitive in about 4 races in 2018 (China, Russia, Bahrain & Baku (end of 1st stint/2nd stint). He could have beaten Hamilton in all 4 of those races on merit.. I'm reluctant to include Canada as Hamilton had race pace reducing tech issues. If one looks at 2016, and if we take out all those races where Hamilton was handicapped by reliability issues;

(either in quali or the race) -so that means excluding China, Russia, Belgium, Singapore, Malaysia. It's a similar picture for Rosberg.  When on an equal footing, Rosberg beat Hamilton in about  5 races in 2016. So it's  not too dissimilar from Bottas' tally.

 

Bottas is showing to be on a par with  Rosberg over 1 lap, although Bottas's race pace is somewhat inconsistent.

 

But the initial point that was being made, is because Rosberg's car was so dominant, it was easier for him to recover from any mistakes, or poor form, to finish P2/P3 behind Hamilton. This giving the appearance of "closeness" between teammates. You mentioned Bottas being 20 secs behind Hamilton.  Rosberg finished nearly 20 secs behind Hamilton plenty times e.g. Malaysia 2014, China2014, Japan 2015 etc.  Yet, because Rosberg's car was so dominant, he still finished P2 behind Hamilton. 

 

I think Mark Hughes best explains the dynamic  on why Hamilton & Rosberg "appeared" close in 2016

 

 " a big car advantage with a competitively quick team mate and no assigned number 1 and 2 - there is no way ANY driver could have beaten that team mate 'by a sizeable margin' as the team mate would always be winning if you broke down and would always be 2nd when you won. Had you put Senna and, say, Brundle, in an '88 McLaren then Brundle would've been a contender for the title regardless of Senna being demonstrably faster. In the races where direct comparison was possible, Ham beat Rosberg 11 times to 5 in races and 12-5 in qualifying."


Edited by BUFFY, 05 December 2018 - 14:37.


#96 ernestomodena

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 13:04

Could be the case but i still rate Rosberg higher then bottas. Also I don't remember Nico having a massive metal break-down.

 

So that's the other thing I learned Team-orders could really break a driver and work against you.



#97 Henri Greuter

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 14:32

and F1 has lost it's way with these Hybrid oil tankers,



Interresting comment. Does it refer to the fact that the hybrid engines used more oil (as fuel component), or the sheer size of the current cars (sooooooooo long) ?

I doubt if it refers to their fuel storage capacity: compared with the no-refuelled V8s the current cars have way smaller fuel tanks ....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 05 December 2018 - 14:32.


#98 Henri Greuter

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 14:35

.
 
So that's the other thing I learned Team-orders could really break a driver and work against you.


I learned that lesson in 2010 already since the German GP: ( "Felipe, Fernando is faster than you...." )

#99 Sterzo

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 15:10

What has the 2018 F1 season taught you?

 

Nothing.

 

I enjoy a good whinge about DRS and track limits and revenue distribution and lack of overtaking BUT I loved the racing in 2018, same as I did in:

 

2017,16,15,14,13,12,11,10, 09, 08, 07, 06, 05, 04, 03, 02, 01, 00, 99, 98, 97, 96, 95, 94, 93, 92, 91, 90, 89, 88, 87, 86, 85, 84, 83, 82, 81, 80, 79, 78, 77, 76, 75, 74, 73, 72, 71. 70, 69, 68, 67, 66, 65, 64, 63, 62, 61, 60, 59, 58, 57, and 56. 


Edited by Sterzo, 05 December 2018 - 15:11.


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#100 BuddyHolly

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 16:29

Could be the case but i still rate Rosberg higher then bottas. Also I don't remember Nico having a massive metal break-down.

 

So that's the other thing I learned Team-orders could really break a driver and work against you.

Agreed, I was never a Rosberg fan and never will be, but it's clear he's a far better driver than Bottas.