113 replies to this topic

[hittheapex]

Hello everybody,

 

It's been a while since I've posted and thought I would start a series of top 10 (in some cases top 5) threads to pass the time during the off season. The idea being that after a week or so of different posts and debates, I'm going to count up the scores and announce a winning top 10 at the end. The scores will run as follows:

 

1st-10, 2nd-9, 3rd-8, 4th-7, 5th-6, 6th-5, 7th-4, 8th-3, 9th-2, 10th-1

 

I'll start things off and as you can see from one or two of my choices, I'm not afraid to go with the unconventional. Rather than write a summary for each driver, as let's face it we know a lot about most "top 10" drivers already, I'll open with the list and take the debate on from there.

 

1. Clark

2. Hamilton

3. Stewart

4. Moss

5. Ken Wharton

6. Tom Pryce

7. Graham Hill

8. Mansell

9. Damon Hill

10. Hawthorn

 

 

 

[Fatgadget]

Why not just create a poll?

[hittheapex]

Because some may have other names they would like in their top 10.

[Collombin]

1. Moss
2. Clark
3. Stewart
4. Hamilton
5. Brooks
6. Mansell
7. Surtees
8. Hill G
9. Redman
10. Brise

[Sterzo]

There's always one awkward poster who ignores the brief, so here's my off-the-cuff top twenty:

 

1. Hamilton

2. Moss

3. Clark

4. Stewart

5. G Hill

6. Mansell

7. Surtees

8. D. Hill

9. Hunt

10. Button

11. Hawthorn

12. Segrave

13. Brooks

14. Seaman

15. Collins

16. "Williams"

17. Watson

18. Pryce

19. Jarrott

20. Franchitti

[Spillage]

Here goes nuthin'. There've been ten world champions, so in theory it should be pretty easy, but there's no way Moss could be left out. Hawthorn made way. I think there probably ought to be place for Tony Brooks too, and Dick Seaman if we're allowing drivers from before 1950.

 

Anyway, I found the top two pretty easy, 3-6 extremely tricky and 7-10 even more so. I'm not entirely sure I agree with my own list.

 

1) Clark

2) Hamilton

3) Stewart

4) G. Hill

5) Moss

6) Mansell

7) Surtees

8) Button

9) Hunt

10) D. Hill

[Yamamoto]

I won't pretend there aren't significant gaps in my knowledge.

 

1. Clark

2. Moss

3. Stewart

4. Hamilton

5. Mcrae

6. G. Hill

7. Surtees

8. Mansell

9. Franchitti

10. Button

[PlayboyRacer]

1. Hamilton
2. Clark
3. G. Hill
4. Moss
5. Stewart
6. Mansell
7. Surtees
8. D. Hill
9. Hunt
10. Button

[Bloggsworth]

Why not just create a poll?

 

There are too many polls over here already, that's why we have Brexit...

[taran]

There are some obvious names such as Clark, Stewart, Hamilton, Hill, Mansell etc.

So what makes one better than the other? Speed? Obvious talent? Greatness over multiple years and teams?

 

Clark was obviously a great driver but he “only” drove for Lotus and was their undisputed #1 driver. I do believe you can only really determine greatness if drivers can win (titles) at multiple teams. How much was Clark and how much was Lotus?

Jacky Stewart had the same advantage at Tyrrell in his championship years despite now judging other drivers on having driven for multiple teams.

Hamilton raced for two teams and has shown immense talent and speed but IMO faced little opposition in his Mercedes years. I believe Vettel had more competition during his championship years.

Moss was fast in everything but I don’t buy into the notion that the championship didn’t matter. The titles (initially European, then World) were well established. Ferrari would even not bother with races once they secured the titles. So Moss never winning a WDC title is a black mark in my book.

 

I find myself thus looking at Surtees, Hill and Mansell. All three raced for multiple teams so you can’t say they found themselves into a comfortable, competitive setup like Stewart. Surtees was fast in all his teams and on 2 wheels and 4 wheels. Graham Hill might not have been the ultimate best or fastest but was always good and showed it in multiple teams. And finally Mansell. Once he got his act together, he was as good as he was irritating at Williams, Ferrari and Williams and Williams again.

 

I feel it should be Surtees. He was a consummate driver, engineer and even team manager/owner.

[messy]

no particular order - 

 

Jim Clark

Lewis Hamilton

Jackie Stewart

Barry Sheene

Nigel Mansell

Colin McRae

Dario Franchitti

Stirling Moss

John Surtees

Graham Hill

[blackmme]

It's actually a really great question and certainly got me thinking....

 

Here is my stab ( I'm limiting myself to F1):

 

1. Hamilton

2. Clark

3. Stewart

4. Moss

5. G.Hill

6. Mansell

7. Surtees 

8. Hunt

9. Button

10. Collins

 

Regards Mike

[sopa]

I would like to ask though.

 

What particularly impressed you about...

 

 

5. Ken Wharton

 

Ken Wharton?

 

And...

 

9. Redman

 

Brian Redman?

[Steve99]

 

Moss was fast in everything but I don’t buy into the notion that the championship didn’t matter. The titles (initially European, then World) were well established. Ferrari would even not bother with races once they secured the titles. So Moss never winning a WDC title is a black mark in my book.

 

 

 

 

The reason the World Title is so revered these days is because it's the sole focus of an F1 driver (with a few latter exceptions, and hopefully more to come) hence in Moss's day, while it did 'matter', it wasn't the be all and end all. In 10 years of F1 Moss took part in, what, 60 odd World Championship Grands Prix? How many non-championship Grands prix did he enter over the same period? It's easy, in the current era, to overlook the importance (and monetary value) of many of those races that did not count towards the title. The same can be said, of course, of Clark and others. I wouldn't put Moss first in this list, but certainly in the top four, with Clark undoubtedly at the top. 

[Murl]

To those who listed him, agreed. To those who didn't, I think that Tony Brooks is underrated.
 

Disclaimer: Not British, so I could be underinformed about the other 9 possibles.

 

As far as the likes of Pryce, Brise go, there surely have been a few champions lost, others even before making it to F1 at all

[Steve99]

To those who listed him, agreed. To those who didn't, I think that Tony Brooks is underrated.
 

 

 He certainly wasn't underrated by his peers, a very talented driver indeed. Would be in my top 10.

[Collombin]

Taran, I agree that the WDC is important but not that it is determined based on driver talent alone. Adjust 1958 for luck and sportsmanship, 1959 for reliability, 1960 for reliability (leading to crash injuries and missed races), 1961 for British cars lack of competitiveness, and there you go - Moss 4 x WDC. He was far and away the leader amongst his peers in that period, so the lack of WDC shouldn't harm Moss - it should harm the WDC itself!

Edited by E.B., 07 December 2018 - 11:45.

[Retrofly]

How has Jason Plato not made anyone's list!

[Grayson]

My list has the caveats that I'm only including F1 (how can I even begin to compare Colin McRae to Jenson Button?) and that my only knowledge of anything more than 30 years ago is based on highlights and second hand knowledge...

 

1. Hamilton

2. Moss

3. Clark

4. Stewart

5. Mansell

6. Button

7. Graham Hill

8. Damon Hill

9. Coulthard

10. Surtees

[noikeee]

1. Clark
2. Hamilton
3. Stewart
4. Moss
5. Hunt
6. G. Hill
7. Mansell
8. Surtees
9. Button
10. D. Hill

[Blundle]

Sticking to F1

 

Clark

Hamilton

Moss

Stewart

Surtees

Button

Mansell

Hunt

Hawthorn

D Hill

[Currahee]

Jim Clark.
Jackie Stewart.
Dario Franchitti.
Allan McNish.
Colin McRae.
Alister McRae.
David Coulthard.
Paul di Resta.
Johnny Dumfries.
Peter Dumbreck.

[P123]

Colin McRae is far too low on your list Currahee. And no Cleland?

[Currahee]

Colin McRae is far too low on your list Currahee. And no Cleland?

True.

How could I forget John Cleland? He was sat at the table next to me at my local Indian recently too.

[screamingV16]

Surprised no ones mentioned Derek Bell, I mean he did alright at Le Mans a few times

Edited by screamingV16, 07 December 2018 - 15:24.

[scheivlak]

1. Clark

 

2. Hamilton

3. Stewart

4. Moss

5. Mansell

6. Hunt

7. Surtees

8. G.Hill

9. Button

10. Brooks

[BRG]

Jim Clark

Colin McRae

Graham Hill

Richard Burns

Tony Pond

Roger Albert Clark

Russell  Brookes

Jimmy McRae

Lewis Hamilton

10= the rest

[Albaforever]

1: Clark

2: Stewart

3: Hamilton

4: Mansell

5: G Hill

6: Franchitti

7: Surtess 

8: McRae

9: Button

10: Burns

[cheekybru]

Hamilton
Clark
Stewart
Mansell
G.Hill
Button
Hunt
Moss
D.Hill
Coulthard

[chrisj]

1. Clark

2. Moss

3. Stewart

4. Hamilton

5. G. Hill

6. Mansell

7. Surtees

8. Hunt

9. D. Hill

10. Brooks

[HeadFirst]

Hamilton
Clark
Stewart

 

Mansell
G.Hill
Button
Hunt
Bell
D.Hill
Franchitti

 

*** In no particular order, aside from the first 3.

Edited by HeadFirst, 08 December 2018 - 01:32.

[MastaKink]

1.  Clark

2.  Hamilton

3.  Stewart

4.  Moss

5.  Mansell

6.  Surtees

7.  G.Hill

8.  Button

9.  Hunt

10. D.Hill

[nordschleife]

1.   Clark

2.   Stewart

3.   Moss

4.   Hamilton

5.   Mansell

6.   G. Hill

7.   Surtees

8.   Button         non-F1:  C. McRae

9.   D. Hill          non-F1:       Bell

10. Hunt            non-F1:  Franchitti

Edited by nordschleife, 26 December 2018 - 00:24.

[hittheapex]

I would like to ask though.

 

What particularly impressed you about...

 

 

Ken Wharton?

 

And...

 

 

Brian Redman?

 

His record against teammates. Ken Wharton was apparently close to Moss when they were in the same car.

Edited by hittheapex, 08 December 2018 - 07:44.

[Nonesuch]

Voting time!

• Jim Clark
• Jackie Stewart
• Lewis Hamilton
• Graham Hill
• Derek Bell
• Stirling Moss
• John Surtees
• Colin McRae
• Nigel Mansell
• Joel Woolf Barnato

All very fine drivers.

Edited by Nonesuch, 08 December 2018 - 09:21.

[hittheapex]

The final results are in. A clear top 7 emerged, with a tight fight for the last three places. Personally I found it ironic that Graham Hill and Mansell placed together given that Mansell at times was given the Graham Hill tag of "the gritty grinder."  Thanks to everybody who took part, look out for another top 10 coming very soon.

 

1. Clark 182

2. Stewart 150

3. Hamilton 143

4. Moss 118

5. Graham Hill 93

6. Mansell 84

7. Surtees 59

8. Button 32

= Hunt

10. Colin McRae 30

Edited by hittheapex, 09 December 2018 - 19:33.

[Yamamoto]

To those who listed him, agreed. To those who didn't, I think that Tony Brooks is underrated.
 

Disclaimer: Not British, so I could be underinformed about the other 9 possibles.

 

As far as the likes of Pryce, Brise go, there surely have been a few champions lost, others even before making it to F1 at all

 

I have read that contemporaries, and Moss in particular, rated Brooks very highly. I didn't feel I knew enough about him to put him in, but he is knocking on the door, as is Richard Burns who I'm ashamed to admit I completely forgot about.

 

But the Brits have provided numerous legends, some highly accomplished drivers will always miss out.

[noriaki]

I have read that contemporaries, and Moss in particular, rated Brooks very highly. I didn't feel I knew enough about him to put him in, but he is knocking on the door, as is Richard Burns who I'm ashamed to admit I completely forgot about.

But the Brits have provided numerous legends, some highly accomplished drivers will always miss out.

I like the anecdote that Graham Hill was older than any of the bunch Moss, Hawthorn, Collins, and Brooks. Yet NGH only won his first WDC race *after* the others had already raced their last GP (though voluntarily so for Brooks). But given how Graham raced competitively all the way till the 70'ies, it makes you wonder how long the others may have managed to keep up in alternative universes, too...

[Collombin]

Hawthorn voluntarily took himself out of play too, although his worsening kidneys might have been a factor.

[Fatgadget]

How has Jason Plato not made anyone's list!

I don't think the OP had Banger racers in mind!

[chr1s]

David Purley

Piers Courage

John Watson

Peter Gethin

Vic Elford

Jackie Oliver

Gerry Marshall

Gordon Spice

David Hobbs

Tony Trimmer

[Fatgadget]

Roger Clark

Tony Drummond

Mick Briant

Barry Lee.

Russel Brookes

Mick Collard

George Polley

Lewis Hamilton

Andy Dawson

[Tsarwash]

How anybody could omit Moss from a UK top ten motor racing drivers list baffles me. 

[hittheapex]

Results are posted above ^^

[Fatgadget]

How anybody could omit Moss from a UK top ten motor racing drivers list baffles me. 

Therein lies the flaw in these discussions. Not everyone these days knows who Moss nor Hawthorn  nor Dick Seaman is/was!

[Tsarwash]

Therein lies the flaw in these discussions. Not everyone these days knows who Moss nor Hawthorn  nor Dick Seaman is/was!

You know who Moss is and still decided to exclude both him and Clark despite only listing nine drivers.  Obviously your opinion is your own and I wouldn't expect it to be identical to mine, but it seems that some people are just listing less famous British drivers for the sake of it ? (I fully admit that I have not heard of most of the drivers on your list.)

I mean, David Purley better than both Moss and Clark ? Whoever wrote that cannot really be serious. 

[Gary Davies]

You can argue about Moss or Clark as number one (no others qualify for the top spot), but anyone who does not include Brooks in their top 10 simply doesn't know enough about motor racing.

[ensign14]

Can't argue with the collective top 4.  You could muck around with the order but Clark would have to be no. 1.

 

Would have had Mansell above NGH.  Would also have had Brooks in the top 10.  The only pre-war driver worthy of a shout would be Richard Seaman - too short a career at the top rank, but right at the end he seemed to be moving onto a different plane, he had even kept Caratsch honest at Switzerland 1938. 

[hittheapex]

You can argue about Moss or Clark as number one (no others qualify for the top spot), but anyone who does not include Brooks in their top 10 simply doesn't know enough about motor racing.

On the contrary, given the number of fine drivers the UK has produced over the years, I would argue that you are always going to get drivers of Brooks' calibre excluded from a lot of top ten lists. Especially as some take the position they will only nominate drivers that they have been around to watch, which will be a small number in Brooks' case.

[maximilian]

Doesn't say anything about F1, so I contend that the Stig should be on this list.