150 replies to this topic

[noikeee]

Maybe we're gonna be so bad next year Williams will find a loophole and magically beat us, Toto Wolff said.

Oh no, our engine development has hit problems, our engine will really suck next year, Toto Wolff said.

I feel Toto is on peak form at the moment delivering some of his classic lines, and it's about time we open up a thread devoted to it. He really has a magnificent ability to continuously pretend Mercedes are in trouble, doesn't he (or about to hit massive trouble; or have just squeezed an unlikely underdog victory against all adversity, for the 10th race in a row). How many times have we heard this?

Edited by noikeee, 08 December 2018 - 12:30.

[P123]

More than enough people have a meltdown over whatever Wolff says; this will like a red rag to them.

How many times have we heard this?

Probably not as many times as such exaggerations in the OP.

Edited by P123, 07 December 2018 - 15:22.

[Fatgadget]

I think he is telling it as it is.

 

Who are you or anyone to dispute what expectations Toto had in mind?

[Anja]

If one was to believe him, it's a wonder they won anything with their cars being one small step from a disaster in every other race. I just don't know if it's an honest overreaction coming from the corporate "anything other than dominance and hitting those predicted, calculated numbers is a disaster" approach, or a more cynical attempt to shape "the story" to make it sound more exciting and heroic. 

Edited by Anja, 07 December 2018 - 15:27.

[string158]

They tried really hard to give Ferrari a chance and not dominate too much.  Already laying the ground work to do the same again next year 

[noikeee]

More than enough people have a meltdown over whatever Wolff says; this will like a red rag to them.


Probably not as many times as such exaggerations in the OP.

Well obviously it's a biased interpretation exaggerated for comedic purposes (sorry if didn't come out funny - in my mind it is amusing). I think the way he comes across is hilarious, and find it hard to believe him by now on any claims of difficulties, given what I've seen in recent seasons. Maybe this time it's true and they're in real trouble, who knows, I'd LIKE that so we could see different people upfront.

 

But I suspect it's just to get people interested so that F1 doesn't look like boring predictable domination by his team, which is good for PR and marketing of his parent company (keep more eyeballs on TV); and also good politically so that there doesn't build up a political atmosphere of trying to penalize Mercedes' performance by any means possible (like happened for example to Ferrari in the early 2000s with constant rule changes). 

Edited by noikeee, 07 December 2018 - 15:37.

[Retrofly]

Bigs up the team and says they are going to smash it - "Big headed boaster"

Downplays his expectations and performance - "Crying wolf! Sandbagger!"

 

I think Toto's personality is quite reserved and seems to subscribe to the "under promise over deliver" mantra.

Edited by Retrofly, 07 December 2018 - 15:43.

[Laster]

I believe the Merc engine not hitting their performance targets, but those performance targets may have been set higher than their competition. The line of Williams even being a potential threat is complete nonsense, I don’t know who Toto is trying to kid with that one.

[Nonesuch]

Wolff's statements are great fun. They can only be an attempt to see how much nonsense a part of his team and/or driver's fanbase will take as gospel.

 

I'm just curious how he sees the result of his little experiment, and if he'd pleased or disappointed by it.

[SenorSjon]

Cue to video of Wolff slamming into a desk in the pitbox. Every Race Again. I tend to believe they edit those in in the live footage.

 

But I don't believe a word he says. Remember Brazil? How Hamiltons engine was near death? Yet it won the next race without missing a beat. That drama has defiled Mercedes performance.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Talking absolute garbage, again!

Year after year he does this. He’s so see-through.

It’s actually just boring seeing what is essentially the same headline recycled year on year. YAWN

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 07 December 2018 - 16:00.

[P123]

Well obviously it's a biased interpretation exaggerated for comedic purposes (sorry if didn't come out funny - in my mind it is amusing). I think the way he comes across is hilarious, and find it hard to believe him by now on any claims of difficulties, given what I've seen in recent seasons. Maybe this time it's true and they're in real trouble, who knows, I'd LIKE that so we could see different people upfront.
 
But I suspect it's just to get people interested so that F1 doesn't look like boring predictable domination by his team, which is good for PR and marketing of his parent company (keep more eyeballs on TV); and also good politically so that there doesn't build up a political atmosphere of trying to penalize Mercedes' performance by any means possible (like happened for example to Ferrari in the early 2000s with constant rule changes). 

I don't pay much attention to him, or Horner (despite Sky having a constant hotline to him), etc... I feel sorry for those who it affects, and who keep telling us they won't be duped, but I suspect the overreaction is because they truly wish that Wolff's worrying had some merit. It's not as if we can blame Vettel. It's all down to whatever Toto says. That's why Merc win. Or something like that. Good stuff.

[P123]

Wolff's statements are great fun. They can only be an attempt to see how much nonsense a part of his team and/or driver's fanbase will take as gospel.
 
I'm just curious how he sees the result of his little experiment, and if he'd pleased or disappointed by it.

Is this reason 101 for letting Ferrari and Vettel off the hook for blowing it a second time in a row? Haha! I feel he'd be laughing royally if he could see the meltdowns he causes among the reds faithful!

[Andrew Hope]

What kind of name for a grown man is Toto anyway?

[noikeee]

I feel sorry for those who it affects, and who keep telling us they won't be duped,

 

It does? I presume you're not talking to me?

 

I just wanted something to talk about, it's the offseason!

[Nonesuch]

Is this reason 101 for letting Ferrari and Vettel off the hook for blowing it a second time in a row?

 

Who is letting anyone off the hook? Ferrari screwed up their team tactics numerous times, ran half-baked strategies and made bad tyre picks at multiple races. They also made a mess of their mid-season upgrades that cost them valuable time and results. Vettel also has made a few whoppers and has been outpaced by Räikkönen at times when he shouldn't have been. Just because not everyone is going along with the hysteria about Vettel failing to be as good as Schumacher doesn't mean folks are blind to the ways things could be done better.

 

Wolff being disingenuous about the performance of Mercedes is a separate issue, and both Wolff being way out there and Ferrari goofing up can be true at the same time.

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 07 December 2018 - 16:21.

[P123]

It does? I presume you're not talking to me?
 
I just wanted something to talk about, it's the offseason!

It's not really an issue though, what he says, although it did give a classic forum moment when the Ferrari faithful were high fiving how great they were doing pre-season, until Wolff praised them and they turned on him like a pack, as suddenly Ferrari automatically became rubbish. I think he likes to get over (and over!) that it's not necessarily some smooth sailing walk in the park, that they work just as hard as anybody else for success, despite, as is clear from the reaction, the fact that a large number think they just turn up and win be default.

But... his latest comments are probably more interesting in terms of how the competitive order will play out next season. Will somebody find a double-diffuser like loophole? Can Merc replicate Ferrari's low range rocket boost (if so good night). That Wolff (and the rest) talk a load of self serving waffle isn't something new.

[CountDooku]

Toto Wolff is a known liar and bullshitter when it comes to car performance. This has been well known for eons so shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Baddoer]

A man who squeezed Ross Brown out of Mercedes team does not deserve any mercy

[Afterburner]

Part of the key to success is always assuming the opposition is nipping at your heels. Whether or not it’s BS, it’s clearly helped keep the good folks at Brackley quite motivated...

[TomNokoe]

The Sandbagging Toto meme took on extraordinary proportions over the last 2-3 years, but claiming Williams could beat Merc is taking the biscuit!!

[Mosrite]

Well, it's no secret that one team winning all the time is not good financially for the sport, and for the Mercedes fanboys, think how you' feel in fingerboy and Red Bull were 'making a mockery of the sport' (it has been said).
It is true that Mercedes has been dominant, but it is also true this is down to their hard work, not cheating, or bending the rules, they simply built a 'better mousetrap' than the rest.
 

In the Red Bull days, a lot of fans, and even drivers were critical of Red Bull for building a better car, and I believe Toto here is trying to divert some negative attention from his team. I have never ever paid attention to what he says about Mercedes, because according to him, Mercedes has been dominating by the skin of their teeth, he has probably rated Mercedes 3rd fastest team after Ferrari and Red Bull.

It's all BS, Mercedes will be as dominant as they have always been, it's not just Ferrari and Vettel making mistakes, that car can go faster. Usually Hamilton is in 1st position, pacing the race, he can go faster, and he has on occasions he needed to do so.
How did F1 stop the Ferrari dominance? How did F1 stop Red Bull dominance? Something similar will need to be done to reveal who will be the next dominant team.
 

Make no mistake...Mercedes will will the drivers and contructors championships next year as well, but the media will have you believe that both Red Bull and Ferrari are equal to the cars, and that Hamilton is going ot have a very tough season with Verstappen putting in brilliant drives and Vettel cutting down on mistakes.

F1 is a show, for the fans, and you cannot have a show for only 1 set of fans. But think what you will, I can recommend from personal experience that if you're putting money down go for Hamilton and Mercedes 

[BRG]

A man who squeezed Ross Brown out of Mercedes team does not deserve any mercy

They got their comeupance for that though.  Trailing around sadly at the front of the grid for year after year.  If only they had kept Brown, they could be up there with Williams and Mclaren with his input.

Edited by BRG, 07 December 2018 - 17:51.

[SonGoku]

I am also getting a bit tired of Wolff to be honest. Then you read he injured himself while partying. We always focus on the drivers, but there is no doubt Wolff thinks he is a superstar right now.

Edited by SonGoku, 07 December 2018 - 18:02.

[AustinF1]

If one was to believe him, it's a wonder they won anything with their cars being one small step from a disaster in every other race. I just don't know if it's an honest overreaction coming from the corporate "anything other than dominance and hitting those predicted, calculated numbers is a disaster" approach, or a more cynical attempt to shape "the story" to make it sound more exciting and heroic. 

I'd say there's probably some of that, but imho the overriding motivation is one of posturing to maintain the status quo in F1's engine formula.

[Fatgadget]

A man who squeezed Ross Brown out of Mercedes team does not deserve any mercy

LOL!

[Fatgadget]

I am also getting a bit tired of Wolff to be honest. Then you read he injured himself while partying. We always focus on the drivers, but there is no doubt Wolff thinks he is a superstar right now.

Tell us more!...You seem to be following him around!

[Fatgadget]

Wolff's statements are great fun. They can only be an attempt to see how much nonsense a part of his team and/or driver's fanbase will take as gospel.

 

I'm just curious how he sees the result of his little experiment, and if he'd pleased or disappointed by it.

I blame Suzie! ..She has changed the poor man

[BRK]

Read today's frontpage and knew the clown was at it again. I would so love to see Mercedes beat fair and square next year just to watch him & his gang go down...came so close in 2018.  

[Ramon69]

Why is everyone s***ing on him for not overestimating his opponents? If he said that Mercedes is better than the rest then everyone would accuse him of being an arrogant a-hole!

 

The quotes on Williams are funny though, but the ones on Ferrari and Red Bull earlier this year and last year shouldn't be laughed at.

[AustinF1]

...

It's all BS, Mercedes will be as dominant as they have always been, it's not just Ferrari and Vettel making mistakes, that car can go faster. Usually Hamilton is in 1st position, pacing the race, he can go faster, and he has on occasions he needed to do so.
How did F1 stop the Ferrari dominance? How did F1 stop Red Bull dominance? Something similar will need to be done to reveal who will be the next dominant team.
 

...

Yep, and that is exactly what Toto is attempting to continue to avoid or delay with all this talk downplaying the car's abilities, imho.

 

Completely agree re: the Merc always being able to go faster. It's very rarely even been tested over the last 5 seasons.

[BuddyHolly]

Tbh if Toto told me that grass was green, I'd have to stick my head out the door and look, the guy is a known liar and bulls**tter extreme.

Just how many mid-race 'fake dramas' did we need to see to know the guy talks out of his rear end?

[Sparky68]

We are in trouble, dont change the engine rules....yawn

[Sparky68]

Tbh if Toto told me that grass was green, I'd have to stick my head out the door and look, the guy is a known liar and bulls**tter extreme.

Just how many mid-race 'fake dramas' did we need to see to know the guy talks out of his rear end?

Just once i'd like to see the table punch him back.

[Fatgadget]

Just once i'd like to see the table punch him back.

It must infuriate you guys at RB eh!

 

..Now where is that worlds smallest violin..

[Fatgadget]

What kind of name for a grown man is Toto anyway?

[NixxxoN]

Toto dictionary english-toto toto english

 

Toto: we are in trouble

English: we are not dominating as in 2014

 

That's basically it

[zaviali]

I think success breeds hatred and I am afraid Toto has to face consequences of that continued success. Toto hasnt got a charming personality and I am afraid F1 is a cutthroat business that requires ruthlessness so whilst Toto might not be a likable guy but he's doing a great job. What Toto is trying to imply is to play down the advantage and lowering expectation at the same time but we all know that Toto will say and do what is best for the business brand of Mercedes. So yeah Toto dont worry we equally hope and pray that your suspicion is correct and somone overhauls Mercedes in what has been an absolute dominance in this hybrid era.

[EndlessMotion]

Loving all these different interpretations. All he said was they didn't find the gains the expected in one area, so as ever, the team are working overdrive to try and turn up in Melbourne with the quickest package possible. Just like everybody else really.

 

Think the reaction says more about the fears of some fans unable to handle any more Mercedes success than it does about Toto and Mercedes' well being going into next season   

[AustinF1]

LOLOK.

[HP]

What kind of name for a grown man is Toto anyway?

Is Torger Christian Wollff better?

 

Plus someone ought to ask him if he is a fan of the band Toto

[FrontWing]

Yep, and that is exactly what Toto is attempting to continue to avoid or delay with all this talk downplaying the car's abilities, imho.

Completely agree re: the Merc always being able to go faster. It's very rarely even been tested over the last 5 seasons.

They were tested this year, but you just keep on with this rubbish. Of course, it can't possibly be down to a certain driver getting more wins when the competition is close or equal, unless it's the great Alonso. 😂

The season would have looked a lot closer if Max hadn't crashed so much at the beginning of the season or Vettel hadn't had multiple incidents, penalties and a race ending crash from the lead. There was certainly no domination of any car this season.

The car looked so dominant in Bottas' hands during the last race that he was overtaken by 3 other cars, but yes, the car could have gone faster...

Edited by FrontWing, 08 December 2018 - 04:26.

[Quickshifter]

We always choose to believe who we want to and what we want to, that goes without exception. Every team on the paddock tries to use press to project a certain image or build a certain narrative. Toto is not different. Whatever he is saying about suffering a small setback may be partially true, completely true or plain BS. Who knows. One thing is certain Toto's recent quotes are in my opinion part of a larger narrative to underplay their technical advantage over rivals.

What is funny is blatant contradiction when he says that new rules won't change anything on one day while the next day he says they could be so significant that even a Williams can leapfrog them. This lack of consistency in statements is more funnier than the actual statements themselves.

TBF when it comes to keeping the midfield at arms length Ferrari and Mercedes press releases are so aligned these days that even if you interchange their press releases they would come out right. Then there is Redbull who are always trying to keep their aerodynamic advantage by not leaving any stone unturned when it comes to having a dig at new aero regulations in 2019.

Edited by Quickshifter, 08 December 2018 - 04:53.

[BalanceUT]

Just so folks know, they should click to read the actual articles and not rely on the OP's description of the contents. Wolff is saying that 2019 has a major rules change on aero. When there's a major change there are often grey areas in the rules that one team may spot while others don't see. Because that's always a possibility when rules change, strange shakeups in the pecking order can happen. All of that is a rational thing to say. Past years have shown such things.

 

The second link is to this precise thread... yes, it goes nowhere. I guess it could be referring to the story that his floating that Wolff said the engine wasn't hitting performance targets. As others have noted, not knowing the targets and the degree of miss, this could be anything from ominous to meaningless for Mercedes. Heck, even Wolff can't know for sure. After all, Ferrari et al. could also have missed their targets, but aren't saying anything. 

 

Finally, does Wolff manipulate expectations in the press, therefore among the public? Absolutely. This is standard practice among team leaders/coaches/etc. The idea is associated with 'under-promise and over-deliver'. I'm from the American South and American football coaches in the south are notorious for warning that their overwhelmingly powerful top-rated team will be fortunate to score at all against the underfunded only partly filled roster of their next opponent. The term for this is to poor-mouth from the negotiating tactic of making it seem you are poor to get a lower cost from someone you are hiring. https://www.urbandic...?term=poormouth

[pitlanepalpatine]

Just so folks know, they should click to read the actual articles and not rely on the OP's description of the contents. Wolff is saying that 2019 has a major rules change on aero. When there's a major change there are often grey areas in the rules that one team may spot while others don't see. Because that's always a possibility when rules change, strange shakeups in the pecking order can happen. All of that is a rational thing to say. Past years have shown such things.

 

The second link is to this precise thread... yes, it goes nowhere. I guess it could be referring to the story that his floating that Wolff said the engine wasn't hitting performance targets. As others have noted, not knowing the targets and the degree of miss, this could be anything from ominous to meaningless for Mercedes. Heck, even Wolff can't know for sure. After all, Ferrari et al. could also have missed their targets, but aren't saying anything. 

 

Finally, does Wolff manipulate expectations in the press, therefore among the public? Absolutely. This is standard practice among team leaders/coaches/etc. The idea is associated with 'under-promise and over-deliver'. I'm from the American South and American football coaches in the south are notorious for warning that their overwhelmingly powerful top-rated team will be fortunate to score at all against the underfunded only partly filled roster of their next opponent. The term for this is to poor-mouth from the negotiating tactic of making it seem you are poor to get a lower cost from someone you are hiring. https://www.urbandic...?term=poormouth

 

Stop trying to ruin the thread with logic. It's off-season so this is the closest thing to F1 entertainment we get.

[AustinF1]

They were tested this year, but you just keep on with this rubbish. Of course, it can't possibly be down to a certain driver getting more wins when the competition is close or equal, unless it's the great Alonso.

The season would have looked a lot closer if Max hadn't crashed so much at the beginning of the season or Vettel hadn't had multiple incidents, penalties and a race ending crash from the lead. There was certainly no domination of any car this season.

The car looked so dominant in Bottas' hands during the last race that he was overtaken by 3 other cars, but yes, the car could have gone faster...

My take has nothing to do Alonso or Lewis. It's about a pattern over 5 years. Lewis did a fantastic &admirable job imho, but let's not pretend he's the only one who could have won the championship this year with that car. Far from it, imho. 

[blacky]

Is Torger Christian Wollff better?

 

Plus someone ought to ask him if he is a fan of the band Toto

 

Both Merc guys seem to be unhappy with their names. Nikolaus ("Niki") is Laudas second name, his first name is Andreas.

 

It's Torger Wolff and Andreas Lauda....

[P123]

My take has nothing to do Alonso or Lewis. It's about a pattern over 5 years. Lewis did a fantastic &admirable job imho, but let's not pretend he's the only one who could have won the championship this year with that car. Far from it, imho.

Naturally you mean Alonso. If Vettel couldn't get close in that Ferrari (and hell, it's 3 race 'missing' period now covers most of the season, which is a magnitude of bullshit even the emotion fiddling Toto can't match!) then I don't see any others who would have got close, besides Alonso.

Wolff is the favourite scapegoat target for fan annoyance at Merc winning. It's a release to have a vent at him.

[AustinF1]

Naturally you mean Alonso. If Vettel couldn't get close in that Ferrari (and hell, it's 3 race 'missing' period now covers most of the season, which is a magnitude of bullshit even the emotion fiddling Toto can't match!) then I don't see any others who would have got close, besides Alonso.

Wolff is the favourite scapegoat target for fan annoyance at Merc winning. It's a release to have a vent at him.

I was talking about who could have won it all in the Merc, not in the Ferrari (but I think there are a handful that would have performed much better in the Ferrari as well, Lewis included). Sure, Alonso could've won it in the Merc imho, but others could have too. I have no problem with Merc winning or even with Toto's transparent attempts to avert change to the formula, thus cementing Merc's advantage. That's his job, after all. Like others, I'm merely identifying it for what I think it is.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 December 2018 - 09:11.

[GoldenColt]

Naturally you mean Alonso. If Vettel couldn't get close in that Ferrari (and hell, it's 3 race 'missing' period now covers most of the season, which is a magnitude of bullshit even the emotion fiddling Toto can't match!) then I don't see any others who would have got close, besides Alonso.

Wolff is the favourite scapegoat target for fan annoyance at Merc winning. It's a release to have a vent at him.

/thread