60 replies to this topic

[hittheapex]

Hello everybody,

 

The next in my series of articles to pass the time during the off season. What, in your opinion, is the top 10 list of German F1 drivers? We had a decent turnout for the last one on British drivers. I already know my list is going to provoke a debate on the omission of one particular driver, but I'm a big boy I can take it

 

My top 10 is as follows:

 

1. Michael Schumacher

2. Sebastien Vettel

3. Nico Rosberg

4. Heinz-Harald Frentzen

5. Wolfgang von Trips

6. Hans-Joachim Stuck

7. Nick Heidfeld

8. Ralf Schumacher

9. Christian Danner

10. Rolf Stommelen

 

As before, the scores will be counted at the end like this:

1st-10, 2nd-9, 3rd-8, 4th-7, 5th-6, 6th-5, 7th-4, 8th-3, 9th-2, 10th-1

[Zoe]

You have totally forgotten Stefan Bellof. Is he the one who you referred to?

 

Maybe the points tally speak a different tale, but then it is hard to judge over that timespan. But as much as I like Christian Danner, as a driver he was not in the same universe than Bellof.

[Collombin]

It's a shame that the best German of all pre-dated F1, and that despite only having a German passport Rindt should probably not be included.

[Henri Greuter]

It's a shame that the best German of all pre-dated F1, and that despite only having a German passport Rindt should probably not be included.

Dare I mention Bernd Rosemeyer, Rudolf Caracciola and/or Hermann Lang ?????

[ensign14]

And the vons Brauchitsch and Stuck belong in that conversation too - several palpable steps above Mass et al, if not on the elevated levels of Rosemeyer and Caratsch.

[hittheapex]

You have totally forgotten Stefan Bellof. Is he the one who you referred to?

 

Maybe the points tally speak a different tale, but then it is hard to judge over that timespan. But as much as I like Christian Danner, as a driver he was not in the same universe than Bellof.

As far as I can see, Bellof was beaten by Brundle who in my opinion was a good but not a great driver. I think Danner was hobbled by his machinery but still managed to get a good result here and there, such as 4th at Detroit in a Rial of all things.

 

Bellof had a great performance at Monaco in 1984, though one could argue that he had a car far better suited to the conditions. Indeed, Senna found that the more he turned down the boost, the better he went. Bellof went well in sportscars, took the Nordschleife record, but this is an F1 list.

Edited by hittheapex, 10 December 2018 - 12:27.

[maximilian]

Christian Danner??  

 

 

Bellof definitely belongs on this list, and I'll put Jochen Mass on 100 lists before I put Danner on any.  Not to mention Kling, Lang, Herrmann, Rosemeyer and Caracciola.

 

Technically Jochen Rindt was also a German, but we Austrians like to gloss over that little detail. 

[subh]

Stefan Bellof is the obvious missing name from your list - and Martin Brundle himself certainly rated Bellof as one of the fastest ever. I would also suggest that Timo Glock was better than some of those on your list.

[hittheapex]

Stefan Bellof is the obvious missing name from your list - and Martin Brundle himself certainly rated Bellof as one of the fastest ever. I would also suggest that Timo Glock was better than some of those on your list.

I think Glock is underrated, he almost made the cut.

[NewMrMe]

If Danner is on the list instead of Bellof because he was beaten by Brundle, did you also consider that Brundle beat Danner when they were teammates at Zakspeed in 1987?

[Steve99]

You can't possibly not include Marcus Winkelhock! Only one race, started it from the back AND pole, and led by 30 odd seconds in a Spyker! The man was clearly a cut above. (actually, I'd say his dad should be considered).

[hittheapex]

If Danner is on the list instead of Bellof because he was beaten by Brundle, did you also consider that Brundle beat Danner when they were teammates at Zakspeed in 1987?

Good point however, looking at careers as a whole, I think Danner deserves inclusion given that he performed better against Brundle than Bellof . Perhaps Bellof would have made the list if he had lived longer but as I wrote above, I don't think the Monaco performance, though very good, deserves the mystique attached to it and his other famous exploits were outside F1.

Edited by hittheapex, 10 December 2018 - 13:22.

[noriaki]

Why did you choose to make the "F1" distinction here but not on the list of top British drivers?

If anything the distinction makes *less* sense here because arguably only four or five top German racing drivers ever were F1 drivers

[hittheapex]

Why did you choose to make the "F1" distinction here but not on the list of top British drivers?

If anything the distinction makes *less* sense here because arguably only four or five top German racing drivers ever were F1 drivers

 

I forgot to make the distinction when I posted the British thread and then it was too late to change it by the time I realised.

[ensign14]

I wouldn't bother changing the distinction - the best Italian and French drivers were also pre-war.  Far more interesting to compare Varzi and Nuvolari than having to distinguish between Trulli and Musso...

[Sterzo]

It's your thread, hittheapex, and you can do what you choose, but I think you've missed the apex by restricting it to F1. The start of F1 has no historical signifcance whatever; it's simply the point at which the Grand Prix racing formula was given a new name for administrative convenience.

Edited by Sterzo, 10 December 2018 - 16:29.

[BRG]

Why did you choose to make the "F1" distinction here but not on the list of top British drivers?

If anything the distinction makes *less* sense here because arguably only four or five top German racing drivers ever were F1 drivers

It also means that Germany's best ever driver - Walter Rohrl - is excluded whilst Ralf Schumacher isn't.

[hittheapex]

Sorry to disappoint, I'd intended the articles to be an F1 series as that is what dominates general discussion anyway, hence you have somebody of the calibre of Colin McRae finishing 10th in the list. Did he deserve to finish that low down, or is it just that hard to compare across different disciplines? It's hard enough comparing different eras in the same discipline. Just my opinion but I think you get a better debate when you have a thread for F1, a thread for rallying, touring cars, sportscars etc. I'd certainly be interested to see a couple of top 10 threads for rally drivers as my knowledge of rally really only dates back to the 1990s.

[noriaki]

Fair enough. Though I'm gonna rebel against your distinction and do 2 lists anyway 

 

All (four wheel) racing

M Schumacher

R Caracciola

B Rosemeyer

S Vettel

H Lang

W Rohrl

N Rosberg

C Lautenschlager

H Stuck (sr)

A Lotterer

 

---

 

F1 career only

M Schumacher

S Vettel
N Rosberg

R Schumacher

H Frentzen

W von Trips

N Heidfeld

N Hulkenberg

K Kling

H-J Stuck

[Sterzo]

Fair enough. Though I'm gonna rebel against your distinction and do 2 lists anyway 

 

All (four wheel) racing

M Schumacher

R Caracciola

B Rosemeyer

S Vettel

H Lang

W Rohrl

N Rosberg

C Lautenschlager

H Stuck (sr)

A Lotterer

I was frighteningly close to agreeing with your list until reaching Stuck and Lotterer. Von Trips and either von Brauchitsch or Hulkenberg instead, please.

[RacingGreen]

Dare I mention Bernd Rosemeyer, Rudolf Caracciola and/or Hermann Lang ?????

 

It's not a "Grand Prix" driver list, it's a "F1" driver list. The first race run to F1 rules was the 1946 Turin Grand Prix  (source https://en.wikipedia...urin_Grand_Prix)  by which time those pre-war greats were either dead or had already faded from the scene.

 

[MKSixer]

Hello everybody,

 

The next in my series of articles to pass the time during the off season. What, in your opinion, is the top 10 list of German F1 drivers? We had a decent turnout for the last one on British drivers. I already know my list is going to provoke a debate on the omission of one particular driver, but I'm a big boy I can take it

 

My top 10 is as follows:

 

1. Michael Schumacher

2. Sebastien Vettel

3. Nico Rosberg

4. Heinz-Harald Frentzen replace with Bellof

5. Wolfgang von Trips

6. Hans-Joachim Stuck

7. Nick Heidfeld

8. Ralf Schumacher

9. Christian Danner remove from the list and replace with Frentzen.

10. Rolf Stommelen

 

As before, the scores will be counted at the end like this:

1st-10, 2nd-9, 3rd-8, 4th-7, 5th-6, 6th-5, 7th-4, 8th-3, 9th-2, 10th-1

My work here is done.  

Edited by MKSixer, 11 December 2018 - 01:19.

[derstatic]

1: M. Schumacher

2: Vettel

3. Rosberg

4. Rosemayer

5. von Trips

6. Bellof

7. HJ-Stuck

8. Frentzen

9. R. Schumacher

10. Stommelen

[messy]

1. Michael Schumacher (obs)

2. Sebastian Vettel

3. Nico Rosberg

4. Heinz-Harald Frentzen

5. Stefan Bellof

6. Wolfgang Von Trips

7. Ralf Schumacher

8. Nico Hulkenberg

9. Nick Heidfeld

10. Rolf Stommelen

 

Just taking the "f1" part very literally. Wanted to include Jochen Mass too but really, all those showed more than he did in F1 didn't they? Ditto Timo Glock, for all he was rather underrated in his Toyota days. Hans-Joachim Stuck would have been a clear choice if you looked at his whole career in motorsport, but just in F1? Nah. Heinz-Harald Frentzen I've always found fascinating. 

Edited by messy, 11 December 2018 - 08:13.

[Henri Greuter]

It's not a "Grand Prix" driver list, it's a "F1" driver list. The first race run to F1 rules was the 1946 Turin Grand Prix  (source https://en.wikipedia...urin_Grand_Prix)  by which time those pre-war greats were either dead or had already faded from the scene.

Ah... Touché......

So let's restrict it to F1 to exclude every German driver never in F1 but starring in other single seater formulas and/or formulas.
And that is also of course the manner to exclude the Indycar drivers of the period 50-60 when it comes to the American Grand Prix drivers ranking....
Somehow it makes sense. But in the case of the German drivers, it excludes at least two or three drivers who would instantly make it onto the list if it is a list for top level single seater formulas drivers over the years.

[sopa]

I find it curious that Stommelen gets rated better than Mass in F1 terms. Why would you consider him better?

[Murl]

I find it curious that Stommelen gets rated better than Mass in F1 terms. Why would you consider him better?

 

Additionally, I never really rated Mass in F1, yet he was a top sportscar driver. Did I fail to appreciate his F1 career, see it in the wrong light?

[Cornholio]

As far as I can see, Bellof was beaten by Brundle who in my opinion was a good but not a great driver. I think Danner was hobbled by his machinery but still managed to get a good result here and there, such as 4th at Detroit in a Rial of all things.

 

Bellof had a great performance at Monaco in 1984, though one could argue that he had a car far better suited to the conditions. Indeed, Senna found that the more he turned down the boost, the better he went. Bellof went well in sportscars, took the Nordschleife record, but this is an F1 list.

 

While I do think Bellof is one of those who tends to be a tad overrated based on dying before his peak and the thoughts that what could have been, etc. Brundle didn't so much beat Bellof as run nip and tuck with him. Also this was just one year after Brundle had taken the British F3 title vs. Senna to the wire, and if not for the injuries he suffered in Dallas that year may have gone on to be a better driver than he was. And even then I think his 1992 season (the one time he got in a genuine front running car) was a bit underrated at the time, based on people not realising just how good Schumacher was yet.

[hittheapex]

My work here is done.  

Frentzen below Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher?

 

I put him above based on his form 1999-2001, when in addition to (mostly) good race performances he was capable of putting in a qualifying lap that made you think "where the heck did that come from?"

[hittheapex]

I find it curious that Stommelen gets rated better than Mass in F1 terms. Why would you consider him better?

Looking at the results, I was more impressed with Stommelen's record against teammates than Mass. Although that might be because I don't rate Patrese particularly highly (one of Mass' teammates), his strong 1991 season not withstanding. Stommelen retired before I was even born so my impressions aren't contemporary.

[hittheapex]

1. Michael Schumacher (obs)

2. Sebastian Vettel

3. Nico Rosberg

4. Heinz-Harald Frentzen

5. Stefan Bellof

6. Wolfgang Von Trips

7. Ralf Schumacher

8. Nico Hulkenberg

9. Nick Heidfeld

10. Rolf Stommelen

 

Just taking the "f1" part very literally. Wanted to include Jochen Mass too but really, all those showed more than he did in F1 didn't they? Ditto Timo Glock, for all he was rather underrated in his Toyota days. Hans-Joachim Stuck would have been a clear choice if you looked at his whole career in motorsport, but just in F1? Nah. Heinz-Harald Frentzen I've always found fascinating. 

 

What a fantastic career he had. His "Lunch With..." and podcast with Motorsport Magazine are both brilliant reading and listening.

[sopa]

Frentzen below Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher?

 

I put him above based on his form 1999-2001, when in addition to (mostly) good race performances he was capable of putting in a qualifying lap that made you think "where the heck did that come from?"

 

In 2001 I thought Frentzen was outperformed by Trulli.

 

HHF was a bit of an enigma. Seemed very good on his day, but there were other periods that left you unconvinced.

[PlayboyRacer]

To be honest I think Frentzen is harshly judged... to a point. In 1999 he was sensational, even 2000 he had some great performances.

It's his time at Williams which always works against him. Fair enough too, its what you do with a championship challenging car that really matters.

However - his teammate was Villeneuve. In his prime, who was one of the 3 best drivers on the grid from '96 through to 2001. To be fair to HHF, very very few would have got near JV in his prime. We sometimes forget just how fast, mentally tough and ruthless he was.

Frentzen was a good driver. Very good in his zone. I think that's a fair assessment.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 11 December 2018 - 12:40.

[derstatic]

Frentzen was brilliant on his day, but would also frequently go missing. I don't quite agree with the praise of Villeneuve. He made much harder work of his sole wdc than he should have. The '97 Williams was much superior to the '97 Ferrari and Schumacher was, literally, all over him. 99 BAR was a total mess, then he beat Zonta, Panis and over the hill Alesi. 

 

Ralf Schumacher was a little like Frentzen. Incredibly quick when on, and quite poor when off. Too inconsistent to be very high on a list like this. 

[sopa]

Personally I think Frentzen, Heidfeld and Hulkenberg are very similar in overall level. Heidfeld's 2007 was pretty much like Frentzen's 1999, only that top teams didn't trip over themselves to such an extent, leaving Nick with no shot at the glory. Hulkenberg has been impressive in midfield, but his years against Perez leave a bit of a questionmark, just like some Frentzen's seasons leave... or, well, Heidfeld's 2008.

 

E: I think I'd add Ralf to that group too. Perhaps the most enigmatic driver of them all though, with biggest peaks and droughts. Stunning on his day, but lackluster on other occasions.

Edited by sopa, 11 December 2018 - 12:58.

[ForzaSurtees]

1. Michael Schumacher

2. Sebastien Vettel

3. Nico Rosberg

4. Wolfgang von Trips

5. Stefan Bellof

6. Heinz-Harald Frentzen

7. Ralf Schumacher

8. Nick Heidfeld

9. Jochen Mass

10. Karl Kling

[PlayboyRacer]

Frentzen was brilliant on his day, but would also frequently go missing. I don't quite agree with the praise of Villeneuve. He made much harder work of his sole wdc than he should have. The '97 Williams was much superior to the '97 Ferrari and Schumacher was, literally, all over him. 99 BAR was a total mess, then he beat Zonta, Panis and over the hill Alesi.

Ralf Schumacher was a little like Frentzen. Incredibly quick when on, and quite poor when off. Too inconsistent to be very high on a list like this.

Not here to argue the ability of Villeneuve, his record speaks for itself and a look through those seasons in closer detail show his quality - he was one of the top guys of that generation. The Williams advantage through 1997 is so overhyped it isn't funny.

Frentzen had a tough time in 97/98 and one part of the reason was his teammate. No different to DC with Mika Hakkinen in 98-00.

I rate Ralf Schumacher an equal with Frentzen. Very similar imo.

[MKSixer]

Frentzen below Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher?

 

I put him above based on his form 1999-2001, when in addition to (mostly) good race performances he was capable of putting in a qualifying lap that made you think "where the heck did that come from?"

Rating his career. Both in a championship winning car as well as one less capable.  I think it's a fair assessment.  I quite like the guy and the difference between he, Ralf and Heidfeld is so thin it only has one side.  All fantastic drivers but this list is a bit like a log scale:  The difference between the guys at the bottom and the guys at the top isn't simply told by their rank.

 

Cheers-mk

[noriaki]

I was frighteningly close to agreeing with your list until reaching Stuck and Lotterer. Von Trips and either von Brauchitsch or Hulkenberg instead, please.

 

I'll give you that Von Trips is fairly difficult to argue against, given his sportscar achievements and relatively early death. I'll also give you that Lotterer's inclusion is controversial too - he's there partly because he's the only one of the German "sportscar greats" of whose sportscar racing I have seen and/or know enough of to confidently state, that they truly were a primary part of their endurance racing successes. The ending to Le Mans 2011 just as the one shining example. But admittedly, also partly because he's a personal favourite of mine - though I might suspect the same deal with your vouching of Hulkenberg. 

 

What makes you not rate Stuck sr, though? Especially in contrast to his contemporary von Brauchitsch. As far as I can see, they both (as well as H. Muller) were somewhat similarly competitive - as in, both occasionally able to give serious headaches to the very best, but not consistently enough to be ranked quite alongside the brilliant Caracciola, Nuvolari, Rosemeyer, Varzi or Lang. Why I placed Stuck above von Brauchitsch was Stuck being most accomplished hillclimber of the era, so I'm gonna defend his place on my list above them after all. 

[AlexPrime]

1 Michael
2 Seb
3 Nico
4 Frentzen
5 Ralf
I haven't watched von Trips or the pre-war drivers, so for me it is difficult to judge them, but they sure were greats!

[RacingGreen]

Ah... Touché......

So let's restrict it to F1 to exclude every German driver never in F1 but starring in other single seater formulas and/or formulas.
And that is also of course the manner to exclude the Indycar drivers of the period 50-60 when it comes to the American Grand Prix drivers ranking....
Somehow it makes sense. But in the case of the German drivers, it excludes at least two or three drivers who would instantly make it onto the list if it is a list for top level single seater formulas drivers over the years.

 

..and I could add that one of your suggestions, Herman Lang, only scored WDC points in a Maserati A6 formula 2 car (when the WDC was run to F2 rules). 

 

No it doesn't make sense to exclude him to me either...  

[Spillage]

I don't think I know enough about Von Brauchitsch, Caracciola and Rosemeyer to include them. I'll have to restrict my choices to F1 drivers from 1950 onwards:

1) M Schumacher
2) Vettel
3) N Rosberg
4) Von Trips
5) R Schumacher
6) Frentzen
7) Heidfeld
8) Mass
9) Kling
10) Stommelen

I haven't included Bellof as he died so young that I honestly don't know how to rate him. I also don't want to rate Hulkenberg while he's still driving - but if I had to, I'd probably put him about level with Heidfeld.

[potmotr]

Personally I think Frentzen, Heidfeld and Hulkenberg are very similar in overall level. Heidfeld's 2007 was pretty much like Frentzen's 1999, only that top teams didn't trip over themselves to such an extent, leaving Nick with no shot at the glory. Hulkenberg has been impressive in midfield, but his years against Perez leave a bit of a questionmark, just like some Frentzen's seasons leave... or, well, Heidfeld's 2008.

 

I agree that Heidfeld was bloody good generally and pretty exceptional in 2007.

 

Didn't have the outright qualifying pace of a Kubica, but made up for it with exceptional race craft.

 

He was a point scoring machine too.

 

Totally could have won Canada 2008 too.

[Sterzo]

What makes you not rate Stuck sr, though? Especially in contrast to his contemporary von Brauchitsch. As far as I can see, they both (as well as H. Muller) were somewhat similarly competitive - as in, both occasionally able to give serious headaches to the very best, but not consistently enough to be ranked quite alongside the brilliant Caracciola, Nuvolari, Rosemeyer, Varzi or Lang. Why I placed Stuck above von Brauchitsch was Stuck being most accomplished hillclimber of the era, so I'm gonna defend his place on my list above them after all. 

I'd agree that Stuck and von Brauchitsch were probably much of a muchness, and maybe I undervalued the hill climb championship, given they were really endurance mountain climbs rather than the British 30 seconds up someone's front drive!

 

Lotterer is one of those good guys who wasn't quite top drawer. In British F3, for example, he was obviously a front runner but you could sort of sense he wasn't going to make it as an F1 regular.

[chrisj]

1) Vettel
2) Nico Rosberg
3) Von Trips

4) Bellof

5) Heidfeld
6) Ralf Schumacher
7) Frentzen

8) Stuck
9) Mass

 

Can't put Michael on a list 'cause he was a cheat. Would love to include Rohrl or Ludwig, they were both great.

[KavB]

I would put Heidfeld pretty high on the list. May not have had the raw pace as Hamilton, Vettel etc but he was super consistent in bringing in results and even in a year where he struggled, 2008, he wasn't far behind Kimi/Kubica in the points standing and they were title contenders!

 

It is a shame he didn't have the same career renaissance as Button and Webber did in 2009 as that prolonged their careers whereas Heidfeld's was cut short when all the manufacturers left. 

 

He was linked to Honda in 2009 in the case that BMW dropped him and I think he would have won the title had he moved. I believe he was also the 3rd choice for McLaren in 2010 behind Raikkonen and Button and he was supposed to drive for Mercedes until they signed Schumacher. A shame he couldn't achieve more.

[Beri]

1) Vettel[/size]
2) Nico Rosberg[/size]
3) Von Trips[/size]
4) Bellof[/size]
5) Heidfeld[/size]
6) Ralf Schumacher[/size]
7) Frentzen[/size]
8) Stuck
9) Mass[/size]
 
Can't put Michael on a list 'cause he was a cheat. Would love to include Rohrl or Ludwig, they were both great.[/size]

Oh brother, this discussion again..

Anywho, it seems to me as if there are only 10 German F1 drivers. Everyone are naming the same drivers. But okay, here I go:
1. Schumi
2. Sebastian Vettel
3. Wolfgang Von Trips
4. Brittney
5. HHF
6. Stefan Bellof
7. Baby Shuey
8. Hulk
9. Quick Nick
10. Rolf Stommelen

And I would like to make a honorary mention for Caracciola. He would be my #2. But I only looked at the post war Grand Prix racing.

[sopa]

I think Glock is underrated, he almost made the cut.

 

Agree.

 

I mentioned HHF, Ralf, Nick and Nico H. above and I think Glock is very near that group, remains just a shade short. Maybe because his career was much shorter, especially in competitive cars, so he had much less opportunity to leave a mark. I remember there were rumours before 2010 that he could become Kubica's team-mate until Renault got sold and they went with Petrov. Surely that would have been interesting to see and would have validated, how competitive Glock was.

 

E: Bonus is of course Glock happens to be on my avatar too. 

Edited by sopa, 12 December 2018 - 10:09.

[noikeee]

F1/WDC only, 1950-onwards only

 

1. M Schumacher

2. Vettel

3. N Rosberg

4. Frentzen

5. R Schumacher

6. von Trips

7. Bellof

8. Heidfeld

9. Hulkenberg

10. Glock

[KavB]

Agree.

 

I mentioned HHF, Ralf, Nick and Nico H. above and I think Glock is very near that group, remains just a shade short. Maybe because his career was much shorter, especially in competitive cars, so he had much less opportunity to leave a mark. I remember there were rumours before 2010 that he could become Kubica's team-mate until Renault got sold and they went with Petrov. Surely that would have been interesting to see and would have validated, how competitive Glock was.

 

E: Bonus is of course Glock happens to be on my avatar too. 

I forgot about that. I'm not sure if this was the case but didn't he turn Renault down? I believe the uncertainty regarding Renault being taken over put him off, particularly after the Toyota withdrawal. A shame as he could have had some pretty decent cars assuming he was retained until at least 2012.