116 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

Remember a couple of years ago when a new layout was proposed at Monza where the first chicane would be done away with and a new chicane put in the Curva Grande? Me neither, as most circuit modifications nowadays tend to never actually happen.

So now there’s a new set of changes being suggested.

https://www.autospor...hanges-proposed

The plan seems to be to do away with one of the chicanes, probably the second one, and restore the Lesmo 2 to its former high speed glory. Even a return to workable banking for a 10 km Temple of Speed is mentioned!

Will any of this actually come to pass? I’ll belive it when I see it. But what are your thoughts? Do you approve of such changes? Does a return to echoes of the past do it for you, or do you hate change?

[NixxxoN]

Wait....

 

 

So the proposals are

1) Remove the variante della Roggia -> approach Lesmo 1 at full speed... wtf?

2) Change lesmo 2 so it becomes a faster corner -> thats reasonable

3) Renew the banking and make it usable? -> a bit of fantasy isnt it?

[Vielleicht]

If getting that backing to useable state means major alterations or replacement of a historic structure I doubt that’ll ever happen

[mgs315]

So they’re willing to remove one of the biggest action points on the circuit. Why?

[Kalmake]

Sounds good. Both chicanes are awful. Probably less trees to move in this plan than the previous one. He didn't manage to sound convincing about the money being there.

 

Unclear what he means with renovation of the banking. It was restored few years ago, but I guess it wouldn't survive racing at full speed. Maybe he means it would get asphalt and proper barriers. F1 is never going there but it could get a lower grade certification.

[Baddoer]

Wrong. T1 and Ascari chicane shall be removed. This will make Curva grande and new Ascari corner a proper challenge.

[Beri]

The banking will never happen as Pirelli (or whoever will supply the tyres that season) will need to alter the structure of the tyres. Remember the Indy fiasco? It was all down to the fact that the Michelins couldnt handle the banking. Plus, the stresses on Formula One cars are calculated in a different way compared to the Indycars. The Indycars are developed to be driven on Ovals with banking. Not so much on flat street courses like Formula One cars are.

[PayasYouRace]

The Indy fiasco came down to Michelin not getting their calculations right and the diamond cut surface of the track that year. Neither Bridgestone or Michelin had any problems in any of the other years that the GP was held at Indy. The cars and tyres handled the forces just fine. These changes are being proposed for 2022. Pirelli will have plenty of time to develop the tyres should they be needed, and the teams will know what they’re facing and their cars will be designed accordingly. Of many reasons for not hosting the GP on some sort of restored banking, that’s not one.

[B Squared]

The Indycars are developed to be driven on Ovals with banking. Not so much on flat street courses like Formula One cars are.

Actually, Indy Cars are developed to run on ovals (short/long - banked/little to no banking), street circuits and natural terrain road courses.

In regards to the "Indy Fiasco" - I remember Autosport and F1 teams being quite cavalier about Indy's 9-degree banking when the F1 event first began its run there. The perceived nearly non-existent banking soon claimed some attention from some crashes in oval turn one and the next thing you knew, the banking was seemingly elevated to Daytona and Talladega-like status by the wizards of smart in F1.

[PayasYouRace]

Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if the banking at T13 at Shanghai is steeper than at Indy.

[noriaki]

I don't know how to feel about this. Surely there's no way you could make Lesmo 1's safety area wide enough for cars approaching it at 380kph and the forest right behind, so I think keeping Variante Della Roggia is absolutely necessary to host F1 racing. Re-working the banking sounds even more like pie in the sky.

 

The only one of the suggestions I could see them approve (even though I guess Monza already violates tens of FIA guidelines and has some exception status, so I guess any chance that doesnt make the average speeds slower is unrealistic) would be re-working the Lesmo turns a bit while keeping the chicanes as they are.

Edited by noriaki, 14 December 2018 - 14:26.

[Beri]

The Indy fiasco came down to Michelin not getting their calculations right and the diamond cut surface of the track that year. Neither Bridgestone or Michelin had any problems in any of the other years that the GP was held at Indy. The cars and tyres handled the forces just fine. These changes are being proposed for 2022. Pirelli will have plenty of time to develop the tyres should they be needed, and the teams will know what they’re facing and their cars will be designed accordingly. Of many reasons for not hosting the GP on some sort of restored banking, that’s not one.

So you expect Pirelli, or anyone, to build whole new tyres that can handle the forces correctly for just one race? Bring back the T car while your at it.

[stewie]

Sign me up, anything that makes Monza even more of a speed cathedral and less like some other dull F1 tracks is fine in my book!

[PayasYouRace]

So you expect Pirelli, or anyone, to build whole new tyres that can handle the forces correctly for just one race? Bring back the T car while your at it.

No. I expect Pirelli to build tyres that will handle the forces for all the circuits on the calendar, as they do today.

[noikeee]

The cost of the project has been costed at €100m, but Damiani has not been put off by the amount of money it will take and thinks it can be raised through contributions from the local and national governments.

 
He told Gazzetta dello Sport: "The money will be found in some way."

 
Yeah not gonna happen.
 
As a racing fan I'd obviously be thrilled with the idea of Monza regaining some of its unique character by losing a chicane or two and re-adding the banking, but I don't see how it all adds up. Very expensive changes, limited space to do it safely with enough runoff (and I'm just talking of removing the chicane nevermind the banking), fewer overtaking points, and possibly they could end up with a track that's okay for F1 but not for other series. It's a nice fantasy but I don't understand the feasibility of it and motivations for it.

Edited by noikeee, 14 December 2018 - 15:18.

[Beri]

No. I expect Pirelli to build tyres that will handle the forces for all the circuits on the calendar, as they do today.

So tyres that are being compromised due to the reason that there is one circuit that is different to all the others, and Pirelli has to take that into account as well?

[wingwalker]

Isn't there a rule somewhere which states how steep banking on an F1 circuit can be? I seem to remember something like that being mentioned back in the (dull as ****) F1 Indianapolis circuit, something along the lines Indianapolis with its shallow banking being the only one of the ovals appropriate for F1, or something like that. So I'd imagine Monza oval is far, far to steep for F1.

[SenorSjon]

The Indy fiasco came down to Michelin not getting their calculations right and the diamond cut surface of the track that year. Neither Bridgestone or Michelin had any problems in any of the other years that the GP was held at Indy. The cars and tyres handled the forces just fine. These changes are being proposed for 2022. Pirelli will have plenty of time to develop the tyres should they be needed, and the teams will know what they’re facing and their cars will be designed accordingly. Of many reasons for not hosting the GP on some sort of restored banking, that’s not one.

 

To add to this, Bridgestone nearly made the same mistake as Michelin, but due to Firestone (a BridgeStone brand) shod Indycars earlier in the season, they knew the track surface and acted accordingly.

 

 

re: Monza. I've read the article, but I still don't understand what they want. Anyone seen a new draft of the layout?

[GhostR]

So tyres that are being compromised due to the reason that there is one circuit that is different to all the others, and Pirelli has to take that into account as well?

 

Yeah, let's forget the fact that in the season just gone Pirelli had two different specifications for at least one compound due to concerns about how the "standard" specification would perform at a couple of specific tracks. And that the "alternative" specification has now become the "standard" specification for next year.

 

They already do this, so I don't see why the possibility of doing it for yet another variation is so worthy of scorn.

[Cornholio]

Got to be honest I like the sound of these changes, unlike the previously proposed Curva Grande alteration. Was always against the banking being demolished in the past but if it's going to be replaced by a raceable version of the old one again that sounds like a positive.

 

Regarding all the worries about F1 tyres etc. I don't think a renovated banking would ever be intended for the Grand Prix anyway, but other events e.g. endurance racing (modern prototypes and GTs seem to handle the parts of the banking used in the Daytona 24 fine, admittedly at lower speeds thanks to the infield and bus stop sections) or perhaps attracting either an IndyCar or stock car type race maybe.

[Sterzo]

Removal of a chicane, and restoring the second Lesmo to its earlier profile, sound promising.

 

Widening the track - what???  No thank you. Restoring the banking: maybe this would not be for F1, but with Indycar or something else in mind.

 

The bigger questions are about the unspoken. Do the changes involve additional acres of tarmac runoff? Would "restoring" the banking put it back to 1961 format (unlikely) or create an ugly horror with no spectator access?

[cas422]

My guess is that the banked oval part of this isn't going to happen. As far as the second chicane and Lesmo two that seems actually doable. I get the concern about approach speeds but why not a safer barrier at the back of the Lesmo one runoff in front of the trees? 

[Andrew Hope]

Bring back both bankings. The safer the cars become, the more dangerous the tracks can afford to be.

(And the more risks the drivers will take with each other safety, which seems to me to be the actual risk).

[PayasYouRace]

So tyres that are being compromised due to the reason that there is one circuit that is different to all the others, and Pirelli has to take that into account as well?

 

It's what they do every year.

[midgrid]

Aside from the money, how many trees would have to be cut down for extended run-off?  This has been a problem for Monza in the past.

[PayasYouRace]

Aside from the money, how many trees would have to be cut down for extended run-off?  This has been a problem for Monza in the past.

 

I could see how they could reclaim some woodland. A faster Lesmo 2 would need a narrower runoff as the impact angle with the wall would reduce. You could have a SAFER or Tecpro barrier and maintain a good level of safety. Also, all the runoff where the removed chicane was could be reclaimed. From the article, it sounds like a lot of redevelopment work would be planned anyway.

[RA2]

100 million euros is crazy!!!!!

 

They should talk to the prince from the beach town, sure he can have it done in 10 million

[JHSingo]

A better proposal:

 

Just leave it how it is.

[Jim Thurman]

Why does everyone just assume the oval would be left at it's current degree of banking? One could always tear down the existing banking (c. 1950s) and re-create the original "Speed Circuit" with its much shallower banking (c. 1920s-30s). That would be very "workable" as far as running on the oval portion.

 

Of course, just the mere mention of this will send many folks who watched the movie "Grand Prix" into histrionic fits    

 

 

[PayasYouRace]

Who has assumed that Jim? A more fair assumption is that the old banking is never going to be able to be used again and something shallower and safer would be built in its place.

[kapow]

I went to Monza last week and had a good look at the banking near Curva Grande. The structure looks to be in a very poor condition with the rebar showing through.

They used the banking for the Monza Rally Show but only the bottom lane. I had to climb through the trees to get to where I could see the action on it!

[kapow]

Edited by kapow, 14 December 2018 - 20:04.

[kapow]

[kapow]

[absinthedude]

I cannot imagine that F1 would ever use the banking. I would assume that if they restore or renew the banking it'll be for lesser events or rally stages...maybe historics.

 

Anything that removes some of the chicanes without slowing the corners is good. But 100 million euros....reminds me of Italy joining the euro "We don't meet the criteria but we've been told we'll be allowed in".....so yeah it might well happen.....

[jonpollak]

I Like it.
Jp

[red stick]

Why does everyone just assume the oval would be left at it's current degree of banking? One could always tear down the existing banking (c. 1950s) and re-create the original "Speed Circuit" with its much shallower banking (c. 1920s-30s). That would be very "workable" as far as running on the oval portion.

 

Of course, just the mere mention of this will send many folks who watched the movie "Grand Prix" into histrionic fits    

 

"Lately, I sometimes get very tired, you know? Very tired." 

Edited by red stick, 14 December 2018 - 21:31.

[jonpollak]

Mark.. that reminds me.
I’ll dig up my dad’s story about the Sarti death crash sequence they filmed over 6 days sometime next week when I get to my literary agents office.

It’s a doozie
Catapults / M80 firecrackers / painted dummies etc.

Jp

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Monza, like the old Hockenheim, is one of the few tracks that are improved by their chicanes.  With modern F1 cars, without chicanes there you just have a flat out test track with a couple of corners so fast that overtaking into them is suicidal.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 15 December 2018 - 02:53.

[AustinF1]

Wrong. T1 and Ascari chicane shall be removed. This will make Curva grande and new Ascari corner a proper challenge.

What? That's not what the articles say. Or maybe you're just not being serious.

[Jim Thurman]

"Lately, I sometimes get very tired, you know? Very tired." 

 

    Indeed!

Edited by Jim Thurman, 15 December 2018 - 08:05.

[loki]

So you expect Pirelli, or anyone, to build whole new tyres that can handle the forces correctly for just one race? Bring back the T car while your at it.

Goodyear has done it several times in Cup while providing many more tires for the event than are provided at an F1 race.  They'll then take that and port what they've learned into other compounds for use in the series.

[Jim Thurman]

Who has assumed that Jim? A more fair assumption is that the old banking is never going to be able to be used again and something shallower and safer would be built in its place.

 

Yours is the first post I've seen that implies that. Other posts focus on "steepness" of the current banking being impossible, which seems to assume something other than what you and I mentioned 

[NotAPineapple]

The Monza banking is wayyyyy steeper than indy. It's so steep at the top you can't walk it, you need to crawl the last couple of meters to get to the top. There's no way in hell F1 would require a tyre that can sustain that load unless it was a one-off tyre.

Honestly 100mil seems a bit low for all the changes they want. Considering they haven't found the funding yet I'd suggest it's just a lot of talk from the italians.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that they burn through all the money widening the track then find out that its still not wide enough due to a miss-communication.

[wj_gibson]

They wouldn’t be able to run the 10km version as the current pit buildings are constructed on what used to be the approach to the banking section’s first turn.

[PayasYouRace]

Yours is the first post I've seen that implies that. Other posts focus on "steepness" of the current banking being impossible, which seems to assume something other than what you and I mentioned 

 

Apparently I'm the only one getting some sort of appreciation for modern circuit design and what the OP report might actually be getting at.

[B Squared]

Mark.. that reminds me.
I’ll dig up my dad’s story about the Sarti death crash sequence they filmed over 6 days sometime next week when I get to my literary agents office.

It’s a doozie
Catapults / M80 firecrackers / painted dummies etc.

Jp

I look forward to your dad's story. I remember getting this issue at the time: Click the cover at the top left of link.

https://books.google...chanics&f=false

Edited by B Squared, 15 December 2018 - 10:42.

[wingwalker]

Wrong. T1 and Ascari chicane shall be removed. This will make Curva grande and new Ascari corner a proper challenge.

Nope, Curva Grande is still going to be a just a long right kink, not challenging in any way or form for any modern F1 car. 

Edited by wingwalker, 15 December 2018 - 10:45.

[taz]

Nope, Curva Grande is still going to be a just a long right kink, not challenging in any way or form for any modern F1 car. 

The Audi WEC cars tested a few times on Monza and left out the first chicane :

 

[TennisUK]

This is all drivel. Removing second chicane will halve overtaking (since fixed gear ratios and rev limits ruined slipstreaming). There remains no runoff for modifying the Lesmos due to all the trees. They will never be able to make the banking even vaguely safe for modern standards for anything to run on without totally destroying and rebuilding. And there is no one to pay for this. This is the kind of pie in the sky rubbish Monza say every few years and then eventually refurbish the press room to satisfy criticism the track is falling to pieces (which it really is).