89 replies to this topic

[Spillage]

I have to say, nice to Gabriele Tarquini make the list at the age of 56. That's no mean feat!

[ANF]

Somebody should make a 2018 Stupid Crash Compilation with Hülkenberg (11th), Vettel (8th) and Verstappen (5th).

[mdelgado12]

Lots of high quality names getting snubbed here, one that sticks out to me is Jochen Hahn. Absolute dominance in his field all year. Rarely made a mistake all year. Walked away from a very talented field including multiple past champions on the way to a 5th title, made it look easy. Even as a fan of a couple of his title rivals, I have to respect the masterclass he put on.

[PlayboyRacer]

This may seem like a stupid question (excuse my ignorance) but for how long has this 'top 50 drivers' list been going for? How far back was the first one?

Some retrospective ones would be really cool to look at or put together.

[Bleu]

I think 2002 was the first year since I saw somewhere combined list of all years starting from that.

[PlayboyRacer]

Ah yep just saw the list of 'driver of the year' alongside the part on Hamilton and your right it dates back to 2002. Taking it back through the 90s and even 80s would be good!

[sopa]

I don't agree, I think the F1 midfield is full of drivers at the absolute peak of talent, as routinely proven by lower end midfielders of the likes of Buemi, or even F1 hopefuls that drop out due to not being good enough in their junior career, being amazing in these other series...

 

I would agree with you about Formula E and maybe to an extent about IndyCar. Well, Vergne was just F1 midfielder and now he gets rated as 3rd best due to FE.

 

However, NASCAR, let alone WRC are so completely different sports that I don't know, how could you sensibly compare them. No F1 driver would master NASCAR straightaway and many would never become top competitors there.

[noikeee]

I would agree with you about Formula E and maybe to an extent about IndyCar. Well, Vergne was just F1 midfielder and now he gets rated as 3rd best due to FE.

 

However, NASCAR, let alone WRC are so completely different sports that I don't know, how could you sensibly compare them. No F1 driver would master NASCAR straightaway and many would never become top competitors there.

 

Yeah I don't really understand neither how can you compare a circuit driver with a rally driver. It's like a completely different sport.

 

NASCAR at least there's a little overlap with Indycar as they both race ovals and there's drivers who have appeared in both, but yeah it's very different too.

[Yamamoto]

I'm no Ogier fan but I would have placed him as the top WRC driver because I think his achievements would not be matched by any other driver in the series.

[realracer200]

I don't understand how can one even compare drivers from different categories.

[Afterburner]

I don't understand how can one even compare drivers from different categories.

You can’t, but media like this generates exposure and ‘buzz’ about certain drivers, which is today’s currency. I’m probably not the only one who despises this but cynically approves when I feel it’s used correctly.

[Ben24]

I'm no Ogier fan but I would have placed him as the top WRC driver because I think his achievements would not be matched by any other driver in the series.

Yeah it's pretty ridiculous that he's behind someone who he beat to the title despite a clearly inferior car.

[statman]

Russell 10
Leclerc 9
Vettel 8
Oglier 7
Dixon 6
Max 5
Tanak 4
Vergne 3
Alonso 2
Lewis 1

 

Tanak?

[monolulu]

Tanak?

Ott Tanak 3rd in WRC

[jwill189]

And a guy like Hulkenberg that performs miracles with a piece of sh!t doesn't make the top 10.

 

Hulkenberg caused a crash at Baku and then crashed into a wall through an unforced error.  He could have killed others at La Source in Belgium by driving as if it were an Xbox game.  And Sainz outqualified him 8 times.

[messy]

Just had a proper look at this top fifty, good reading as usual. I'm thinking Alonso's second position is a bit much, though. Inflated through the fact he's retiring, really. He was good in F1 2018, one of the stronger performers and everything, and it's great that he won Le Mans, but in F1 I would rank Verstappen higher (despite iffy start) and the WEC....it's great to see him winning and everything, but it's not like winning WEC races in 2018 has been the most taxing achievement. I'm just struggling to find the kind of heroic drives that we've had in previous seasons, I guess - and I think Max did do that.

I'm delighted to see Vergne in at #3, though again I think if they gave similar weight to (arguably bigger) series' like Indycar, NASCAR, Supercars, then you'd include Kyle Busch, Scott Dixon and Scott McLaughlin in the same bracket and it puzzles me a bit why Formula E success is now given so much weight while those other series' aren't. I'm nitpicking, though. And I'm a big JEV fan.

Main thing is that as ever it's a brilliant read. I get my issues delivered and was gutted when it didn't come yesterday.

[rockdude101]

I'm delighted to see Vergne in at #3, though again I think if they gave similar weight to (arguably bigger) series' like Indycar, NASCAR, Supercars, then you'd include Kyle Busch, Scott Dixon and Scott McLaughlin in the same bracket and it puzzles me a bit why Formula E success is now given so much weight while those other series' aren't.

 

They did? Dixon is listed as 6th. Rossi 12th. 

 

How Hulk got 11th ahead of Rossi is bonkers. Rossi drove possessed at times this season. 

[noriaki]

Yeah it's pretty ridiculous that he's behind someone who he beat to the title despite a clearly inferior car.

Tanak was easily the fastest WRC driver of the year, he just had 3 retirements from the lead for technical reasons while Seb had 0.

I guess the ranking between him and Ogier mostly depends on whether you attribute the retirements to bad luck or Ott being too rough with the car.

[Nonesuch]

Rossi drove possessed at times this season. 

 

He really did. I have to admit I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but I do recall checking the written report of a race at least twice to verify that Rossi did what I thought I saw he did. Some excellent performances for sure. Also some less laudable moments, but that goes for everyone competing at the sharp end.

[messy]

They did? Dixon is listed as 6th. Rossi 12th. 
 
How Hulk got 11th ahead of Rossi is bonkers. Rossi drove possessed at times this season.

All I'm saying is that for me, Indycar is still a higher level series so Dixon and Rossi, who were both absolutely outstanding in 2018, would probably rank above Vergne much as I'm a JEV fan. Rossi, much as he had a few dips - there were some races where he was incredible, just squeezed something out of the car that the others couldn't.

Tanak was clear WRC #1, I agree with that one. Ogier made a couple of errors and was quite lucky that Toyota had problems at moments where Tanak was sailing away in the lead. Oh, and that Neuville forgot how to drive in the last third of the season.

[garoidb]

Nice to see a sportscar driver up there in second. 

[jonpollak]

Is it Christina?... no?

Pfft.
Jp

[Sterzo]

Comparing drivers between series is always going to be highly subjective, and setting circuit racers against rally drivers is perhaps a step too far.  Nevertheless, you can make a stab at comparing Formula 1, Formula E, Indycar and World Endurance Championship. Not only is there a lot in common, but there's a vast number of drivers who've tackled the single seater ladder with the stated aim "I want to be World Champion for sure." Some made it into F1 then moved to one of the other series, others diverted at various stages of their careers as they realised they weren't going to make it.

 

It's fairly clear the lead bunch in those series consists largely of guys who weren't quite convincing enough to justify a long term ride in F1. Rossi, Buemi, Vergne, Newgarden, Hartley, Kobayashi, Nakajima... terrific drivers but you wouldn't drop Ricciardo or Perez for one of them.

 

NASCAR - who knows? Perhaps there's an all-time great hidden in there, but the drivers are predominantly one nationality, and what are the chances the standard is as high as a series for the World Championship?

[messy]

I'm a big believer really that the F1 grid does not represent the best twenty drivers in World Motorsport. It just doesn't. Yeah, if you're looking for a percentage share of the talent then I'm sure F1 monopolises, but anyone telling me that Lance Stroll or Marcus Ericsson are better than Will Power or Scott Dixon, I'd argue against that till I was blue in the face. There are God-only-knows how many drivers out there in FE, the WEC, Indycar etc who could, had they been dealt the right cards at the crucial moment, have enjoyed exactly the same sort of career in F1 that somebody like Sergio Perez or Kevin Magnussen has. Examples? Robert Wickens - he won FR3.5 without a great deal of backing up against the Red Bull protege Vergne; Robin Frijns - he won FR3.5 in arguably its most competitive year ever as a rookie; Felix Rosenqvist - he starred in the F3 Euroseries but never got the break and had to hang around at that level for slightly too long....

And none of those three even made the top fifty.

Then you've got examples like Vergne and Buemi. Who both showed more than enough promise in F1 to warrant a long term career but were cast aside because the next generation (in this case JEV himself and Kvyat) were rattling at the door. They've gone away and reinvented themselves as racing drivers, improved, grown as people and become two of the most convincing competitors in world motorsport. If the old versions of them were pretty handy, pacy F1 drivers then I've got no doubt they'd be even better now.

Similarly, the likes of Newgarden, Pagenaud and Power in Indycar all initially tried the European 'road to F1' ladder and were relatively unsuccessful in FR3.5, but they've established themselves and become top, top drivers in the USA. This is why I love the top fifty every year, it makes a pretty good stab at ranking drivers across disciplines IMO.

Edited by messy, 23 December 2018 - 09:07.

[noriaki]

Comparing drivers between series is always going to be highly subjective, and setting circuit racers against rally drivers is perhaps a step too far. Nevertheless, you can make a stab at comparing Formula 1, Formula E, Indycar and World Endurance Championship. Not only is there a lot in common, but there's a vast number of drivers who've tackled the single seater ladder with the stated aim "I want to be World Champion for sure." Some made it into F1 then moved to one of the other series, others diverted at various stages of their careers as they realised they weren't going to make it.

It's fairly clear the lead bunch in those series consists largely of guys who weren't quite convincing enough to justify a long term ride in F1. Rossi, Buemi, Vergne, Newgarden, Hartley, Kobayashi, Nakajima... terrific drivers but you wouldn't drop Ricciardo or Perez for one of them.

NASCAR - who knows? Perhaps there's an all-time great hidden in there, but the drivers are predominantly one nationality, and what are the chances the standard is as high as a series for the World Championship?

The World Championship is often more like an European Championship, with a few guests from Australia and Latin America once in a while. So while the likes of Newgarden, Rossi, Nakajima, Lowndes hardly set the world alight whilst in the European ladder - each of their "conversion" back to the racing environment of their native countries has seen them star there. And it's not like European drivers haven't tried doing the same, but somehow an Aleshin, Chilton, Coletti, even Conway - or in the case of the east, a Dillmann or a Premat - suddenly tends to look way exposed by the standard of a local driver they were generally beating in Europe. (It's also why I tend to very much respect those precious few modern drivers who have managed to shine in multiple racing bubbles - see Montoya, Alonso, Lotterer, Bourdais.)

So I guess it comes down to whether you view F1 as the be all and end all of judging a driver. Because I'd rather recognize the diversity of professional motor racing and cut the non European racing drivers some slack.

Would I hire Alex Rossi over Hulkenberg for my F1 ride? No way. Would I hire him over Hulk for my Indycar ride? Damn right I would. But a Super GT ride so they both would have to step into the dark? Because that's the most interesting question for me...

[Sterzo]

I'm a big believer really that the F1 grid does not represent the best twenty drivers in World Motorsport. It just doesn't. Yeah, if you're looking for a percentage share of the talent then I'm sure F1 monopolises, but anyone telling me that Lance Stroll or Marcus Ericsson are better than Will Power or Scott Dixon, I'd argue against that till I was blue in the face.

Agree totally. The way I see it, the top half of the F1 grid probably does contain the best drivers in the world. Then there are fifty, maybe a hundred at the next level, of whom some make it to F1 for a time and others don't. We find them scattered in Indycar, FE, Super Formula, WEC, and various forms of GT and touring car racing.

[sopa]

The World Championship is often more like an European Championship, with a few guests from Australia and Latin America once in a while. So while the likes of Newgarden, Rossi, Nakajima, Lowndes hardly set the world alight whilst in the European ladder - each of their "conversion" back to the racing environment of their native countries has seen them star there. And it's not like European drivers haven't tried doing the same, but somehow an Aleshin, Chilton, Coletti, even Conway - or in the case of the east, a Dillmann or a Premat - suddenly tends to look way exposed by the standard of a local driver they were generally beating in Europe. (It's also why I tend to very much respect those precious few modern drivers who have managed to shine in multiple racing bubbles - see Montoya, Alonso, Lotterer, Bourdais.)

 

That's a pretty good point. Reminds me that highly rated European GP2 champions Gasly and Vandoorne went to Super Formula, and, well, didn't win there. Fair enough to Gasly that he came very close though and maybe was unlucky. About Vandoorne it was said that he was in the wrong team in an inferior car. But then again... isn't that the story everywhere? That you would need to be at the right place to succeed. Applies in Europe as well, and for Europeans it's somewhat easier to be "at the right place" to succeed than it is for strangers.

[noikeee]

That's a pretty good point. Reminds me that highly rated European GP2 champions Gasly and Vandoorne went to Super Formula, and, well, didn't win there. Fair enough to Gasly that he came very close though and maybe was unlucky. About Vandoorne it was said that he was in the wrong team in an inferior car. But then again... isn't that the story everywhere? That you would need to be at the right place to succeed. Applies in Europe as well, and for Europeans it's somewhat easier to be "at the right place" to succeed than it is for strangers.

Yes but most European feeder series these days are same car for everyone. Whereas Vandoorne had a weaker engine...

[OvDrone]

Tanak?

Yeah, the ott and only.

[Beamer]

Whats up with the stupid Alonso fanboyism? Alonso 2nd is just plain wrong. I know I'm biased and wouldn't even have placed alo in the top 10, but 2nd really is just fanboyism.

[ebc]

Formula 1 is a World Championship, but most of the drivers are from Western Europe so not necessarily the best the world has to offer, more likely just the best European drivers.  For drivers outside of Europe it is more difficult to make it to F1 because they have to move to Europe and that on its own is difficult never mind getting the right opportunities so quite a few can fall between the cracks.  

 

Nascar is the top series in North America, guys like Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson didn't even try to get to F1, Nascar is their F1, the pinnacle of racing to them.  Why is Hamilton better than Kyle Busch?  Because he drives in F1?  There has to be more to it than that,  

 

I don't think F1 drivers are any better than Nascar drivers or Indycar drivers, they are so different.  The top 50 list doesn't give other series the credit they deserve, especially Nascar.  With that said, I would still have Hamilton at number 1, but with Kyle Busch and Scott Dixon 2 & 3.   

[Sterzo]

I don't think F1 drivers are any better than Nascar drivers or Indycar drivers, they are so different. 

I think you underestimate the lure of the World Championship. Young drivers are desperate to head for F1 because of that championship title. That’s what gives it the quality.

 

Many drivers race in Europe first, trying to climb the single seater “ladder” to F1. Only when they realise they can’t make it, do they turn to Indycar or other series. Some do make F1 but get spat out, and turn to Indycar. I had a look down the 2018 Indycar list in Wikipedia to see how many drivers did that, and here they are:

 

Leist, Kanaan, Wilson, Rossi, Kimball, Chilton, Jones, Fittipaldi, Ferrucci, Mann, Daly, Bourdais, King, Pigot, Patrick, Chaves, Herta, Binder, Harvey, Sato, Wickens, Munoz, Celis, Servia, Newgarden, Castroneves, Power, Pagenaud.

[AlexS]

This is a complete farcical list except maybe for first place. Alonso 2nd?! for what. Vettel 8th for a string of mistakes at rookie level and if not for Raikonnen 4 DNF's and a mid season on PU1 would be probably at same level or worse ? Verstappen crashes earlier in season? Leclerc hype?

 

The only F1 driver in first 10 should probably be Hamilton.

[rockdude101]

Can someone please explain the Hulk hype? I really don't buy it. He's never been on the podium or won a F1 race, and had several terrible races this year - spa anyone? One of the oldest on the grid, 31 - same as Vettel, so you can't say he's got 'potential' like Gasly, Leclerc or Ocon. His only real claim to top-tier drivers is by way of the LM24 '15 victory, where Porsche were dominant.

 

I just don't get the hype. 

[messy]

He's a modern day Giancarlo Fisichella. I like Hulkenberg, but everyone I think likes to think that somewhere hidden away in the midfield is a gem who with the right breaks could have been a WDC contender - go back to 2004 and it was Fisichella, now it's Hulkenberg. Next season, putting him up against Riccardo, will give us a rather better answer I think.

[PayasYouRace]

I think Hulkenberg is more of a Button than a Fisichella. If he does get a shot at a top car I think he’ll be able to do well with it. I hope he doesn’t end up as a Heidfeld though.

[AlexPrime]

I don't think F1 drivers are any better than Nascar drivers or Indycar drivers, they are so different.  

Indy for me is inferior to either F1 or NASCAR. NASCAR is probably the most difficult and demanding series to master.

[Henri Greuter]

He's a modern day Giancarlo Fisichella. I like Hulkenberg, but everyone I think likes to think that somewhere hidden away in the midfield is a gem who with the right breaks could have been a WDC contender - go back to 2004 and it was Fisichella, now it's Hulkenberg. Next season, putting him up against Riccardo, will give us a rather better answer I think.

 

 

How about a modern day Alan Jones? Not many people were impressed with him before Patrick Head brought in the FW07.....

[MKSixer]

I'm a big believer really that the F1 grid does not represent the best twenty drivers in World Motorsport. It just doesn't. Yeah, if you're looking for a percentage share of the talent then I'm sure F1 monopolises, but anyone telling me that Lance Stroll or Marcus Ericsson are better than Will Power or Scott Dixon, I'd argue against that till I was blue in the face. There are God-only-knows how many drivers out there in FE, the WEC, Indycar etc who could, had they been dealt the right cards at the crucial moment, have enjoyed exactly the same sort of career in F1 that somebody like Sergio Perez or Kevin Magnussen has. Examples? Robert Wickens - he won FR3.5 without a great deal of backing up against the Red Bull protege Vergne; Robin Frijns - he won FR3.5 in arguably its most competitive year ever as a rookie; Felix Rosenqvist - he starred in the F3 Euroseries but never got the break and had to hang around at that level for slightly too long....

And none of those three even made the top fifty.

Then you've got examples like Vergne and Buemi. Who both showed more than enough promise in F1 to warrant a long term career but were cast aside because the next generation (in this case JEV himself and Kvyat) were rattling at the door. They've gone away and reinvented themselves as racing drivers, improved, grown as people and become two of the most convincing competitors in world motorsport. If the old versions of them were pretty handy, pacy F1 drivers then I've got no doubt they'd be even better now.

Similarly, the likes of Newgarden, Pagenaud and Power in Indycar all initially tried the European 'road to F1' ladder and were relatively unsuccessful in FR3.5, but they've established themselves and become top, top drivers in the USA. This is why I love the top fifty every year, it makes a pretty good stab at ranking drivers across disciplines IMO.

 

This.

 

I think the top 20 drivers in F1 and the 3rd drivers represent the top 100 drivers in the world.  They definitely aren't the top 20.  

[goldenboy]

Yeah I don't see how it's possible to compare across different types of motorsports. I like Alonso being in the top 5 or 10 though for his perfect qually and gritty races to go with his WEC (even though there was basically no competition). I'm hoping he starts igniting something in other drivers to push to be allowed to compete in other forms.

To be honest though, I just don't like lists of any kind like this except for the WDC, which is unavoidable but still not always won by the best.

Edited by goldenboy, 26 December 2018 - 16:08.