25 replies to this topic

[TerryS]

I see that this car is up for auction at Silverstone Auctions in Birmingham in mid January:

https://racecarsdire...ark-daytona-500

I am intrigued by a couple of lines in the sales blurb:

"The car was used successfully in competition in Australia, specifically at Bathurst where it gained a podium finish"

"Although not eligible for an FIA HTP (as it was never homologated in Europe) it runs to Australian CAMS specification and is eligible for and welcome in the 2019 Masters series.......)"

[Ray Bell]

As I recall there was one of these at the Sandown 6-hour race...

 

Supercharged and driven by Rodger Ward. But that was with the Studebaker engine.

 

What were the Bathurst results of 1965 and 1966?

[TerryS]

As I recall there was one of these at the Sandown 6-hour race...
 
Supercharged and driven by Rodger Ward. But that was with the Studebaker engine.
 
What were the Bathurst results of 1965 and 1966?

Rodger Ward and Warren Weldon competed in a Studebaker Lark in the first Sandown 6 Hour in 1964.They came home in 23rd position having completed 187 laps. This was 43 laps behind the winning Alfa.
Also in a Lark in that race was the Victorian crew Allan Mottram and Fred Sutherland who came in 17th on 196 laps

In relation to Studebaker Larks at Bathurst:

In 1965 Armstrong 500
Mottram/Sutherland came in 13th on 120 laps, 10 laps behind the winner.
Also in the race was Warren Weldon and Bill Slattery who came in 27th on 112 laps.

In 1966 Armstrong 500
There was only one Lark, for Weldon/Slattery. They came in 38th having only completed 88 laps of the 130 laps
It is interesting that two Valiant V8 Automatics came in 10th and 11th.

Edited by TerryS, 20 December 2018 - 08:56.

[Red Socks]

FWIW the Touring car race on 21st November 1965 at Sandown was on the International Calendar, thus cars which took part therein - subject to proving their specification - are eligible for an HTP.

[Ray Bell]

Indeed, with cars running under International rules...

Group 2, was it not?

[Ray Bell]

There is still an inkling of truth in the Bathurst 'podium' claim...

In 1967 the Lark of Warren Weldon and John Hall came in eleventh outright. And third in Class D. 124 laps completed.

[AmilcarJohn]

Some discussion of this particular Lark here:

 

https://tentenths.co...=152154&page=10

 

I don't know if the reported exclusion from the second part of the St Mary's trophy has any bearing on the owner's decision to sell. It is a very quick car and I was impressed.

[Rupertlt1]

Forgive me if it is a blinding statement of the obvious, but presumably the car was called Daytona after this:

 

https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

 

RGDS RLT

[Paul Hamilton]

FWIW the Touring car race on 21st November 1965 at Sandown was on the International Calendar, thus cars which took part therein - subject to proving their specification - are eligible for an HTP.

 

The Lark would, in any event, be eligible for issue of a HTP as a 'National Competition Touring Car' in terms of Article 2.3.10 of Appendix K.  That requires that the car have established a significant competition history at national level in major competitions which comply with the relevant national regulations.  Based on its Bathurst performances alone the Lark would surely comply with that.  It would, however, need to be in the correct period specification as applicable to the Bathurst event and some of the commentary about this car would indicate that it may not meet that requirement. 

[Terry Walker]

The Bathurst cars as I recall had drum brakes. Went like the wind at the start of the race, and then faded away along with their brakes.

[Catalina Park]

Sandown ran under international rules, Bathurst ran under Hinxman rules.
I think the Sandown spec would be the one I would try to follow.

[TerryS]

The Lark would, in any event, be eligible for issue of a HTP as a 'National Competition Touring Car' in terms of Article 2.3.10 of Appendix K.  That requires that the car have established a significant competition history at national level in major competitions which comply with the relevant national regulations.  Based on its Bathurst performances alone the Lark would surely comply with that.  It would, however, need to be in the correct period specification as applicable to the Bathurst event and some of the commentary about this car would indicate that it may not meet that requirement.

I think it would be difficult to get a HTP. The current owner is the MD of Silverstone Auctions so I am sure if there was a way he would have pursued it to increase its value

Just quickly looking at the photos I think the wheels would have to be changed as only standard wheels allowed when raced in Australia.

Also look at the size of the opening at the front. The bumper bar has been very cut away for extra cooling.

Both these points would mitigate it getting a HTP. There are probably other points not so readily apparent.

[TerryS]

There is still an inkling of truth in the Bathurst 'podium' claim...

In 1967 the Lark of Warren Weldon and John Hall came in eleventh outright. And third in Class D. 124 laps completed.

Ray, they must be drawing a long bow to claim this as a 'podium' finish.

The interesting thing about this car is that although entered as a 1965 car it was actually their 1964 car. Apparently there was an age limit on cars. I just rad this in an interview with Rick Marks the current owner of the car.

So they can hardly claim this podium for their 1965 car in the ad.

[TerryS]

The Bathurst cars as I recall had drum brakes. Went like the wind at the start of the race, and then faded away along with their brakes.

In addition to brakes the other major issue was the strength of the standard steel wheels. They were prone to cracking and breaking off. I read this in an interview with the late Warren Weldon.

The story about the starts is interesting. For many years at Bathurst they ran classes based on selling prices. And the starting grid was based on these classes, with the highest class starting at the front.

The Studebakers were always in the top class so started at the front. That is why there are so many images and memories of the Studebakers leading the field away. They would lead for a few laps then drop back as brakes faded.

Even in the 1962 Sandown 6 hour they started at the front because the classes were based on engine capacity, and the Studebakers were in the top class. So the front row of the grid was the two Studebakers and the Baillie/Davison 7 litre Galaxie. Rodger Ward was on pole.

[Ray Bell]

As the age limit was either three or four years, it would have been no problem to enter a '64 car in '67...

In fact, the Sharp/Derriman Phoenix ran that year and was a '63 model. As for the 'long bow', third in class is third in class, that's today considered to be 'on the podium' for the class.

[TerryS]

As the age limit was either three or four years, it would have been no problem to enter a '64 car in '67...In fact, the Sharp/Derriman Phoenix ran that year and was a '63 model. As for the 'long bow', third in class is third in class, that's today considered to be 'on the podium' for the class.

Ray maybe the age thing was all a con.

By calling the old car a ‘65 model they were able to add a four speed gearbox and front discs. That is probably why they did better in 67 than previously.

[Ray Bell]

Doubtful, Terry...

Every car placing back to third place in class was thoroughly scrutineered after the race. That wouldn't pass muster.

The '64 Lark had disc brakes available, by the way, the change to Chevrolet engines came in '65 so it's unlikely that a '64 was altered to that extent.

Needham's would have had the latest (or most appropriate) model for the race each year, they were Studebaker specialists and undoubtedly had close ties with the dealers... if they weren't dealers themselves.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 24 December 2018 - 03:50.

[Lee Nicolle]

Clearly this car did not compete in Oz. Studes though were regular competitors in the period, but not LHD 2 doors. All 4 doors.

I have never heard of a Daytona Special so probably a US model.  Studes with Chevs is correct and only 283s as GM would not sell them the 'premium' 327s. You can make them go quite hard, just costs twice as much as a 4" bore engine as too many parts are custom. And you cannot use the big valves either as they do not fit down the bores.

I feel the last model assembled here had disc brakes as an option, I have never seen a 4 speed one but then dont see many Studes, especially unmodified ones.

What spec did Warren Weldon race? Early on a drum brake 3 speed 259 Stude engine. Later ?? I somewhat doubt a 4 speed or disc brake car as they were reknowned for no brakes. But quite quick early. And yes many cars inc the Studes broke wheels. As a GpN car it would be Nb, so race with 6" wide rims but alloys are fine. That cut away bumper I doubt is legal anywhere! And near certainly not really required anyway.

There was a Hawk raced for quite a period though that was far from legal, especially at the end as the owner was scared by axles breaking with the wheel passing the car! So ended up with a 9" Ford. And the engine was just slightly larger than 283 also,,, try 400! but very mild and a LOT cheaper and less power than a highly prepared 283. Car was originally though a 259 4 speed with discs. But a Hawk not a Lark.

The mention of the Valiant V8 is interesting as well, drum brakes and auto. Here in Oz Chrysler never had disc brakes until the 68 VE.

[smeetsie]

Lee, Have a look in Google under "Studebaker race cars" and you will see various photos of 2 door Larks racing in Australia at Bathurst etc.

I have been researching them to build a race car for myself........1/24 slot car that is!!!!

Regards

Pete S.

[Ray Bell]

I tried googling that...

On one site there was an interview with Weldon where he claimed to have won his class in a Stude in 1964 as well as coming third in 1967, one photo caption says he led the race for seven hours before a flat tyre dropped him to third. And in 1966, did you know he won his class in every round of the ATCC in a Holden EH?

[smeetsie]

Further to that, there is also a photo of a Studebaker leading a Cooper S with flares, and the Studie has

knock-on alloy wheels. Make sure you search "Studebaker race cars Australia". Robbie Nicholls, who was with Aunger in Adelaide for many years

had a souped up Studebaker Hawk GT that was lowered with big fat wheels etc. when I was 15......I am 67 now. Robbie went on to

race a Lola Formula Junior (Ford 1100cc) and a Lola Climax 50's sports car in Historics. He also raced a white MGA at Mallala in the early 1960's.

It was Customised and had a head faring. He lived around the corner from me....next to a bloke who had a Simca Aronde with grey Holden motor,

and across the road from "I was only 19" John Schumann.

Regards

Pete S.

[GeoffR]

This thread interests me on a couple of points; one because my uncle back in the day had a blue Studebaker Lark V8 (not sure what year) that would seem to fit with this or the company's 259 cu in (4.2 L) V8, which the L indicates a flathead V8 which is what I recall it had. Also the engine transplant mods that happened back then, ie 1500 Cortina GT engine in a Morris Minor, 6 cyl Holden red motor in a Mk 1 Cortina, modded  red motors in early Holdens to name some.

[Ray Bell]

No flathead V8s in Studebakers...

The 'L' is for 'litres'.

[Lee Nicolle]

This thread interests me on a couple of points; one because my uncle back in the day had a blue Studebaker Lark V8 (not sure what year) that would seem to fit with this or the company's 259 cu in (4.2 L) V8, which the L indicates a flathead V8 which is what I recall it had. Also the engine transplant mods that happened back then, ie 1500 Cortina GT engine in a Morris Minor, 6 cyl Holden red motor in a Mk 1 Cortina, modded  red motors in early Holdens to name some.

Stude V8s were all OHV, they did though share the siamesed centre exhaust pattern of Ford sidevalves so only 6 exhaust ports. There was a FJ around with a Stude V8 in the early 70s. seemed to fit ok.

And we must be of similar vintage with pushrod Fords in BMCs Holdens in Cortinas, in fact anything those engines remotely fitted.

And Smeets didnt all Simcas have Holden motors!! Everyone that I knew did,, or was a non goer with some corroded froggy 4. Some were done well. some not so good! Done properly they were a good conversion as the Simcas handled and  stopped ok for drums of the period.

Though the 'best' swap I ever saw was a Minor with a Holden,, the front engine mount was on the front bumper literally and the rad on an extension forward. Was not around very long!!

[Lee Nicolle]

Further to that, there is also a photo of a Studebaker leading a Cooper S with flares, and the Studie has

knock-on alloy wheels. Make sure you search "Studebaker race cars Australia". Robbie Nicholls, who was with Aunger in Adelaide for many years

had a souped up Studebaker Hawk GT that was lowered with big fat wheels etc. when I was 15......I am 67 now. Robbie went on to

race a Lola Formula Junior (Ford 1100cc) and a Lola Climax 50's sports car in Historics. He also raced a white MGA at Mallala in the early 1960's.

It was Customised and had a head faring. He lived around the corner from me....next to a bloke who had a Simca Aronde with grey Holden motor,

and across the road from "I was only 19" John Schumann.

Regards

Pete S.

So you were a hills dweller. And ancient, your 3 years older than me!

[GeoffR]

No flathead V8s in Studebakers...

The 'L' is for 'litres'.

OK, must be my fading memory, it was more than 50 odd years ago!!