81 replies to this topic

[hittheapex]

Hello again, we're at the birthplace of motor racing for our next top 10. France, a country even more conspicuously lacking world champions than Italy in my opinion, given the number of drivers they have produced. Here is my top 10 and as ever I expect a little controversy:

 

1. Prost

2. Beltoise

3. Laffite

4. Tambay

5. Vergne

6. Cevert

7. Arnoux

8. Depailler

9. Alesi

10. Pescarolo

 

I'm going to let this one run until after Christmas, I'll probably post the results on Boxing Day or the day after. Merry Christmas everybody.

[sopa]

As with Italy, there is very tough choice from P2 downwards. But there is no way I would put Beltoise second. 

[Taxi]

Its Prost. :-)

 

Actually no other french driver really impressed me after Alesi in 1989/90. But then he plummed a bit. Panis was almost as good as Alesi but just not that amazing thing. Before that Arnoux and Tambay were pretty equal and more recently Vergne might just be a bit better than Grosjean. 

 

Can I put 10 versions of Alain Prost? the 10th best Alain would stil be better than any of the others. 

 

[by the way I think Prost as Armenian ascendent]

[noikeee]

Vergne is quite a lost talent but come on, better than Alesi and Arnoux.

[Regazzoni]

Prost

Arnoux

Laffite

Pironi

Depailler

Alesi

Beltoise

Cevert

Jabouille

Behra

 

Edit: there is no way Tambay belongs to the top ten, never rated him. And Wimille doesn't count if it's about the world championship.

Edited by Regazzoni, 19 December 2018 - 14:27.

[hittheapex]

As with Italy, there is very tough choice from P2 downwards. But there is no way I would put Beltoise second. 

Won the qualifying battle with Lauda in the same car. I agree P2 downwards is tough as with Italy. Wait until the next country, putting a top 3 for that one will be a doozy.

[hittheapex]

Vergne is quite a lost talent but come on, better than Alesi and Arnoux.

Alesi could be fantastic but blew hot and cold, Vergne I think was more consistent. Ahead of Arnoux may be harsh but Rene did enjoy the better cars in his career as well. If this was the 10 fastest Frenchmen over one lap, I think I'd have Arnoux in 2nd.

Edited by hittheapex, 19 December 2018 - 13:56.

[ensign14]

As with Italy, there is very tough choice from P2 downwards. But there is no way I would put Beltoise second. 

 

Beltoise drove his F1 career with one and a half functioning arms.  I wonder how good he would have been with both in full working order.  He was obviously quite a talent - his win at Monaco 1972 is one of the greatest drives ever.  Ickx was a Regenmeister but Beltoise was half-a-lap up in a much worse car with a much worse engine - and nobody else was on the same lap.

 

I would go something like...

 

1. Prost

2. Wimille (he counts)

3. Cevert

4. Alesi

5. Trintignant

6. Behra

7. Lafitte

8. Pironi

9. Jabouille

10. Arnoux

 

If we were to go pre-war, we would, again, have a shedload; Etancelin, Dreyfus (beat the Germans at Pau - the great forgotten drive), the mercurial Moll, the heroic Benoist, those long time servants Goux and Wagner, and maybe even, going to the Heroic Age, the metronomic Thery...
 

[noikeee]

1. Alain Prost

2. Rene Arnoux

3. Jean Alesi

4. Patrick Depailler

5. Jacques Laffite

6. Jean-Pierre Beltoise

7. Patrick Tambay

8. Jean-Pierre Jarier

9. Didier Pironi

10. Jean Behra

 

To compare Arnoux-Depailler-Laffite-Tambay-Pironi-Jarier is very tricky as they pretty much all beat each other! (or did better than each other when compared to common teammates). I'm rating Arnoux higher there due to being fiercly close to Prost (closer to Prost compared to Alesi for example), although Prost was still in his early years.

 

Another tricky trio of drivers to compare was early 1950s Behra-Manzon-Trintignant, who were actually all team-mates once, Manzon coming on top. I decided to just about include Behra in 10th, ahead of those team-mates and the likes of Cevert, Jabouille, and contemporary drivers Grosjean/Vergne/Ocon/Gasly, due to his very consistent season later on for Maserati ('56).

[Cornholio]

 

To compare Arnoux-Depailler-Laffite-Tambay-Pironi-Jarier is very tricky as they pretty much all beat each other! (or did better than each other when compared to common teammates). I'm rating Arnoux higher there due to being fiercly close to Prost (closer to Prost compared to Alesi for example), although Prost was still in his early years.

 

 

Arnoux is one of those drivers like Alboreto (and Kimi for a modern example) who would be rated a lot higher had his career ended sooner, e.g. if he'd left the sport after being sacked by Ferrari, or even after a good 1986 with Ligier. Those last three seasons with an uncompetitive car, reputation for blocking, James Hunt's "BS" commentary etc. tend to drag him down in most "all time" lists.

[john winfield]

I was very tempted to place JP Jarier top on the basis of two or three quite unbelievable drives, but came to my senses. It had to be Servoz-Gavin. No room for Maurice Trintignant, despite two Grand Prix wins, and I'm not sure about Jean Behra. I always thought Jacques Coulon or Pierre-Francois Rousselot might make the big time, but sadly not. And we never discovered how good Denis Dayan and Jean-Luc Salomon would be.

 

1. Prost

2. Pironi

3. Cevert

4. Jabouille

5. Depailler

6. Arnoux

7. Beltoise

8. Jarier

9. Laffite

10. Alesi

[noriaki]

WDC only

Prost

Behra

Arnoux

Pironi

Alesi

Laffite

Beltoise

Tambay

Trintignant

Depailler

 

All 4 wheel racing

Loeb

Prost

Ogier

Bourdais

Auriol

Boillot

Wimille

Moll

Behra

Pescarolo(/Larrousse)

[404KF2]

In the classic GP era there were a lot more: Goux, Boillot, and many, many more.  All much more impressive to me.

[chrisj]

1. Prost

2. Pironi

3. Arnoux

4. Cevert

5. Depailler

6. Lafitte

7. Beltoise

8. Behra

9. Jabouille

10. Jarier

[ForzaSurtees]

1. Alain Prost
2. Didier Pironi
3. Rene Arnoux
4. Jacques Laffite
5. Jean Behra
6. Francois Cevert
7. Jean-Pierre Jabouille
8. Olivier Panis
9. Jean Alesi
10. Patrick Tambay

Edited by ForzaSurtees, 19 December 2018 - 15:23.

[scheivlak]

A bit like the Italian list: one guy at the top and then a huge scramble for all the remaining places.... LIke Italy, things are complicated as well by some careers going down after a few years while we can only guess how those of others might have been if not for grave or fatal accidents.

 

1. Alain Prost

 

2. Francois Cevert

3. Didier Pironi

4. Jacques Laffite

5. Patrick Depailler

6. Rene Arnoux

7. Jean Pierre Beltoise

8. Jean Alesi

9. Maurice Trintignant

10. Patrick Tambay

 

Bubbling under: Behra, Jabouille, Panis, Jarier

 

(WDC years  only)

Edited by scheivlak, 19 December 2018 - 17:00.

[PlatenGlass]

Prost
Arnoux
Laffite
Pironi
Depailler
Alesi
Beltoise
Cevert
Jabouille
Behra

Edit: there is no way Tambay belongs to the top ten, never rated him. And Wimille doesn't count if it's about the world championship.

And yet Arnoux is second despite being comparable with Tambay when they were team-mates. I also think a lot of people swallow Jackie Stewart's hype about Cevert when he didn't really do very much while Stewart was off winning the world championship.

[scheivlak]

And yet Arnoux is second despite being comparable with Tambay when they were team-mates. I also think a lot of people swallow Jackie Stewart's hype about Cevert when he didn't really do very much while Stewart was off winning the world championship.

Being about as fast as Jackie on the old Nordschleife is good enough in my book.

[BuddyHolly]

1. Alain Prost

2. Francois Cevert
3. Didier Pironi
4. Rene Arnoux
5. Patrick Depailler
6. Jean Behra
7. Jean-Pierre Jabouille
8. Olivier Panis
9. Jean Alesi
10. Jacques Laffite

[MLC]

For this list, the number one spot is as easy as it gets. Numbers 2-10 is very difficult. Here's my list but I am not confident at all on 2-10 as each of these drivers has a large swing in their performance - sometimes average, sometimes great.

 

1. Prost

 

2. Pironi

3. Laffite

4. Arnoux

5. Alesi

6. Cevert

7. Beltoise

8. Behra

9. Jarier

10. Vergne

[Collombin]

And yet Arnoux is second despite being comparable with Tambay when they were team-mates

I felt that Tambay actually outperformed Arnoux whilst teammates.

[chr1s]

I felt I had to put Pironi second as he was the one most likely to be world champion, same reason for Cevert, although that was by no means a foregone conclusion. Both Arnoux and Laffite could have been champions but for better reliability. I always thought there was more to Jarier than what we saw and that his results suggest. I was never convinced about Depailler although his performances in Germany 75' and south Africa 78' stand out in my mind. Alesi, like Jarier promised much in the beginning and really should have achieved more. I liked Tambay and I think his performance in Germany in 1982 was superb given the circumstances. I don't remember much about Jabouille apart from his two wins. I feel like I've over looked some one.....

 

Prost

Pironi

Cevert

Arnoux

Laffite

Jarier

Depailler

Alesi

Tambay

Jabouille

[PayasYouRace]

I do think Alesi gets underrated a lot. Going to Ferrari when he did was obviously a mistake. There wasn’t much he could do with those cars. You look at how he generally outperformed Gerhard Berger during their 5 seasons as teammates, and out scored him in 4, I think is a good indication that he would have had a lot more success if he’d just picked Williams for 1991.

[messy]

Strange thing about Berger-Alesi is that people forget that 'solid, reliable' Berger outqualified 'fast, mercurial' Alesi just as often as not at Ferrari but Alesi was the higher scorer in the races. Dunno if it's just me, but I always kind of assumed Alesi was way quicker in qualifying. Both good drivers, though. Probably fading forces when they went to Benetton, but highly entertaining at Ferrari. That 1995, V12 Ferrari was a feast for the senses, the way it looked and sounded, one of the most beautiful Ferraris ever made. 

Edited by messy, 20 December 2018 - 07:45.

[Peat]

25 post in and not one mention of Michel Vaillant?

Shame on you all. 

 

[sopa]

Being about as fast as Jackie on the old Nordschleife is good enough in my book.

 

It's just one race though. You could find one impressive race for many drivers. Of course, to bring an extreme example. In 40 years' time someone says that Maldonado held off Alonso in Barcelona and that proves he was a great driver.

[john winfield]

25 post in and not one mention of Michel Vaillant?

Shame on you all. 

 

 

Unforgivable. F1 World Champion, two Indy 500s and four Le Mans.  Friends with Didier Pironi too.

[Spillage]

I have a sneaking feeling that Alesi is among the most chronically overrated drivers in the sport's history. I definitely wouldn't pick him over Arnoux or Laffite, but some people reckon he was world championship material. Anyway, here's my list. 1950 onwards:

1) Prost
2) Pironi
3) Arnoux
4) Laffite
5) Tambay
6) Alesi
7) Jabouille
8) Beltoise
9) Cevert
10) Behra

[scheivlak]

It's just one race though. You could find one impressive race for many drivers. Of course, to bring an extreme example. In 40 years' time someone says that Maldonado held off Alonso in Barcelona and that proves he was a great driver.

I guess you mean the 1973 GP? In 1971 Cevert first had to pass a few people, once he was 2nd he was about as fast as Jackie and eventually set FL.

[sopa]

While after Prost it's very hard to choose, then it's time to take a look at pros and cons of a number of drivers, who are roughly on a similar level.

 

Pironi. Likely to win the 1982 championship without accident. Quick in 1980, but error-prone. Got outperformed by team-mates in the beginning of his career, but you could say fair enough about that. Then again got well outperformed by Villeneuve in 1981. Career ended early, so we didn't get to judge him fully. 

 

Arnoux. Looked very fast in qualifying in Renault. But... how much of it was the supremely quick albeit unreliable car? Because he didn't proceed to outperform Tambay and wasn't completely convincing against Alboreto. After that dropped off.

 

Laffite. Very impressive in Ligier for a few seasons, particularly his 1981 campaign in which he competed for the championship. Then again he didn't have a team-mate in Ligier for a few years, Depailler and especially Pironi troubled him, and he fizzled off, when he went to Williams. Nowhere near Rosberg. Then again age was a decent excuse by then.

 

Depailler. Overshadowed by Scheckter. But his best period might have been late 70's, prior to the accident. Looked good against the very highly rated Peterson at the time, even more so against rookie Pironi. 

 

Cevert. Looked like a good #2 driver to Stewart. Anything more? Well, then again Stewart was the elite driver on the grid at that time, so in context that's not too shabby either.

 

Tambay. Looked okay in Ferrari after getting the call-up as a substitute. Solid 1983, solid in Renault against Warwick. But other than that? Hard to say. 

 

Alesi. From a different era altogether than these guys. Showed flashes of brilliance at times, but was inconsistent and ultimately fitted into the role of a "good but not great". Not among the best of his era, but somewhere after these guys. 

 

Behra. He was way before any of these guys. Would say only as much as that while he wasn't among the benchmarks of the field (the likes of Fangio, Moss), he seemed like one of the better ones among the rest. How does that compare I don't know.

 

Then after these guys I have no idea, how to pick between the likes of Trintignant, Beltoise, Jarier, Jabouille, Panis, Vergne, Grosjean. Everyone had the odd flash of brilliance, but that's it. You could add also Servoz-Gavin to the list, although the sample size for him is way smaller than the other guys.

Edited by sopa, 20 December 2018 - 10:02.

[ensign14]

Behra never won a WC GP but was robbed at Aintree in 1957 by a broken clutch.  However he won a race that was just as good as any WC GPs, and was a greater achievement - because he won at Reims in 1952 in a Gordini against the hitherto-unbeatable combo of Ascari and Ferrari 500. 

[noriaki]

Behra never won a WC GP but was robbed at Aintree in 1957 by a broken clutch. However he won a race that was just as good as any WC GPs, and was a greater achievement - because he won at Reims in 1952 in a Gordini against the hitherto-unbeatable combo of Ascari and Ferrari 500.

Behra also won races at Ain-Diab 1957 (in the same car as Fangio no less) and Aintree 1959 which both had WDC level grids. Not to mention those three triumphs Pau - of which the first was, again, snatched in a Gordini, over Trintignant's Ferrari and the Maseratis...

Perhaps my ranking of 2nd overrates the man, but Behra was unquestionably better in the wheels of GP cars than his WDC results alone would suggest.

[ensign14]

Fangio had a touch of the flu at Morocco 1957 (as did Hawthorn and Schell), and also lost a bit of time when Toto Roche blackflagged him thinking he was Jack Brabham.  But it was a very strong field; only Moss (another flu victim) of the big names was absent.

[hittheapex]

This is already shaping up to be a tight fight for "best of the rest" after Prost.

[Taxi]

There's no touching Prost. It has to be for the 2nd place. Altough Senna will walk way with it, the Brazilian top 10  will have a much more close podium than this one. 

Edited by Taxi, 20 December 2018 - 13:10.

[john winfield]

There's no touching Prost. It has to be for the 2nd place.

 

 

Hey, hang on Joe Le. I'm sure I once saw Dany Snobeck beat Prost in Formule Renault Europe, then the following weekend Richard Dallest beat Snobeck. So that's Prost down in third already!

[aportinga]

Francois Cevert right after Prost all day long!

[PlatenGlass]

Strange thing about Berger-Alesi is that people forget that 'solid, reliable' Berger outqualified 'fast, mercurial' Alesi just as often as not at Ferrari but Alesi was the higher scorer in the races. Dunno if it's just me, but I always kind of assumed Alesi was way quicker in qualifying. Both good drivers, though. Probably fading forces when they went to Benetton, but highly entertaining at Ferrari. That 1995, V12 Ferrari was a feast for the senses, the way it looked and sounded, one of the most beautiful Ferraris ever made.

I do think that Berger was never that great after leaving Ferrari the first time. He looked really good around 87/88, but later on less so. So I think it does somewhat show Alesi up that he was overall slower in qualifying than Berger. Alesi rarely troubled Prost at Ferrari. I think the Tyrrell of 1990 was actually a better car than people appreciated, and that got Alesi his chance at Ferrari and saw him through his career!

But I think it's easy to confuse a driver being "racy" with being fast, and I think Alesi falls into that category. He was decent enough, and had some very good wet weather showings, and also unlucky in that he could have won many more races without bad luck at the wrong times, but he wasn't elite by F1 standards.

[RacingGreen]

1 Alain Prost - obvious choice then:

 

2 Jacques Laffite  

3 René Arnoux

4 Jean-Pierre Jarier *  

5 François Cevert #

6 Jean Alesi

7 Maurice Trintignant

8 Jean Behra

9 Patrick Depailler

10 Didier Pironi 

 

* I know Jarier never actually won a GP but he could be staggeringly good on his day - Brazil '75 spings to mind. Have often wondered what would have happened if he had stayed at Lotus after those two races in '78.

 

# difficult to place because of his death just as he was set to breakthrough. Obviously not at JYS's level but who was?

Edited by RacingGreen, 20 December 2018 - 22:49.

[PlayboyRacer]

Are we counting French-Canadians? Lol

What an epic podium that would make.
Prost by a mile, Pironi second... then probably Cevert. And yes Jean Alesi is always ridiculously overrated despite being a real talent.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 21 December 2018 - 06:12.

[sopa]

People keep repeating, how Alesi is overrated, yet only one person has actually put him into top 3. Personally I think it would be justified enough if you did put him into top 3. Apart from Prost I see no-one, who left a convincingly better impression overall.

Edited by sopa, 21 December 2018 - 08:27.

[PlayboyRacer]

Pironi, Cevert, Arnoux, Laffite... I'd say Depailler too. All a far bigger impression and overall ability than Alesi imo.

Jean was just far too erratic. You hear so many people say 'what if he'd taken the Williams offer for '91 onwards'... and true he'd have had some good results. But I think in the active car Mansell would have murdered him in 1992 and thereafter he would have struggled to retain his seat.

Also within the Williams environment... I'm not sure Jean would have been any better than he was. Every Williams World Champion was a tough character, mentally strong...able to overcome adversity and stamp an authority. Not things I'd associate with Alesi.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 21 December 2018 - 09:04.

[Currahee]

The 2 sebastiens have to be in a French top 10. Or is this limited to F1 drivers?

[Sterzo]

A facinating thread, not least because it's so difficult. If you divide the contenders into three groups, you end up with:

 

All time greats - Prost.

Natural front runners - Wimille from F1 in the forties, but nobody from the championship era.

Decent GP drivers - everyone else already listed on this thread.

 

Easier to go pre-war:

 

1. Benoist

2. G. Boillot

3. Chiron

4. De Knyff

5. Wagner

6. Hemery

7. Charron

8. Dreyfus

9. Girardot

10. Goux

[BRG]

The 2 sebastiens have to be in a French top 10. Or is this limited to F1 drivers?

Unfortunately these 'Top 10' threads are myopically F1-centric.  So the real French talents (apart from the superb Prost of course) would be Loeb, Ogier, Wollek, Auriol etc rather than make-weights like Alesi.

[noikeee]

I've been voting exclusively on F1/WDC post 1950 because that's what I have basic knowledge of, not the entire history of all motorsport.

If including everything then of course Loeb and Ogier are very high up on this.

[ensign14]

Although people say it's impossible to compare drivers over eras, I think it is possible to get an idea of the a sort of relative brilliance compared to the field.

 

But going back before WW1 I think is indeed too hard as the racing was too different - no mass starts, no circuits for the first few years, racing as more of an endurance event so there are wild performance swings.

[jwill189]

Surprised to see so many people knocking Alesi.  With the exception of Senna, Alesi was arguably the most fun driver to watch in the 90s.

 

Alesi's weakness was his lack of savvy in setting up cars.  He could always get the most out of what he had, but he had a hard time improving the car.  Too many times he would be quick or quickest in practice and first round of qualifying, only to fall down the order by second round of qualifying.  But what I will always remember of Alesi is his car control and pace on semi-wet tracks in slicks.  Very entertaining.

 

Maybe I started watching F1 after Arnoux's prime, but all I saw was a moving chicane who never looked in his mirrors.

[Sterzo]

Unfortunately these 'Top 10' threads are myopically F1-centric.  So the real French talents (apart from the superb Prost of course) would be Loeb, Ogier, Wollek, Auriol etc rather than make-weights like Alesi.

Can't really criticise the eyesight of people who list only French F1 drivers on a thread titled "Top 10 French F1 Drivers."

[PlayboyRacer]

Surprised to see so many people knocking Alesi. With the exception of Senna, Alesi was arguably the most fun driver to watch in the 90s.

Alesi's weakness was his lack of savvy in setting up cars. He could always get the most out of what he had, but he had a hard time improving the car. Too many times he would be quick or quickest in practice and first round of qualifying, only to fall down the order by second round of qualifying. But what I will always remember of Alesi is his car control and pace on semi-wet tracks in slicks. Very entertaining.

I don't see anyone knocking Alesi for his entertainment value. Brilliant car control, could race and dice with the best. Absolutely one of the stars of the 90s for pure driving ability.

In the end though he had significant shortfalls. Most of that was temperament, between the ears... and possibly work ethic? Which is really most important of all traits... Alesi is the perfect example of 'talent only gets you so far in F1'

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 23 December 2018 - 01:15.