139 replies to this topic

[hittheapex]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone. Thanks for taking part, the French thread was very interesting, particularly on subjects like Alesi and Jabouille.

 

Now we head to Brazil, where again I suspect one driver may run away with the top spot but after that I think we are in for another tight fight after that.

 

Here we go:

 

1. Ayrton Senna-Perhaps the easiest of all to place on my top 10 despite other fantastic drivers being here.

 

2. Nelson Piquet-Could have been even more successful but for some unreliability at Brabham and going to Lotus for 1988.

 

3. Emerson Fittipaldi-Should have been a triple world champion at least but for establishing Copersucar with his brother.

 

4. Rubens Barrichello-Similar to Massa in the dry, his superior wet weather driving gives him 4th place.

 

5. Felipe Massa-Could be very quick, capable of beating anybody on his day, but it wasn't always his day.

 

6. Carlos Pace-Young and talented taken from us too soon. Looked capable of being at least a regular winner.

 

7. Christian Fittipaldi-Never given the better machinery that his talent deserved. I don't think we ever saw his potential realised I think he could have been a regular winner.

 

8. Mauricio Gugelmin-Capable of good performances and like C. Fittipaldi, never enjoyed top machinery.

 

9. Wilson Fittipaldi Jr-Some good performances in the Copersucar but not really a threat to the top places.

 

10. Cristiano da Matta-Did a decent job in the Toyota, but in the end hard to argue with him being replaced in favour of Ralf Schumacher/Jarno Trulli.

Edited by hittheapex, 26 December 2018 - 12:51.

[PlayboyRacer]

Swap Piquet and Fittipaldi, swap Massa and Barrichello... and I pretty much agree. It thins out very quickly.

[P123]

Shame it's just an F1 list as de Ferran and Castro-Neves would be around the same level as Rubens and Massa.

[Regazzoni]

1.   Ricardo Divila

2.   Emerson Fittipaldi

3.   Carlos Pace

4.   Nelson Piquet

5.   Rubens Barrichello

6.   Mauricio Gugelmin

7.   Roberto Moreno

8.   Wilson Fittipaldi

9.   Alex Dias Ribeiro

10. Felipe Massa

[noriaki]

F1
A Senna
E Fittipaldi
N Piquet
R Barrichello
F Massa
C Pace
C Fittipaldi
R Moreno
M Gugelmin
L di Grassi

All 4 wheel motorsport
A Senna
E Fittipaldi
N Piquet
G de Ferran
R Barrichello
H Castroneves
F Massa
T Kanaan
C Pace
C da Matta

[john winfield]

Thanks for these Apex - lots of fun.

 

1.  Ayrton Senna

2.  Emerson Fiitipaldi

3.  Nelson Piquet snr

4.  Reubens Barrichello

5.  Felipe Massa

6.  Carlos Pace

7.  Roberto Moreno

8.  Ingo Hoffman

9.  Mauricio Gugelmin

10. Wilson Fittipaldi

[Currahee]

Shame it's just an F1 list as de Ferran and Castro-Neves would be around the same level as Rubens and Massa.

I'd have them both above them tbh.

[ensign14]

Weird how Cristiano da Matta's F1 season and a half has been completely overlooked.  Surely he's a better shout for a top 10 than Hoffman or Ribeiro or Diniz? 

[hittheapex]

Weird how Cristiano da Matta's F1 season and a half has been completely overlooked.  Surely he's a better shout for a top 10 than Hoffman or Ribeiro or Diniz? 

You're right ,I'd forgotten about da Matta. No argument at all putting him in at #10 instead of Diniz.

[Sterzo]

Thanks for these Apex - lots of fun.

 

1.  Ayrton Senna

2.  Emerson Fiitipaldi

3.  Nelson Piquet snr

4.  Reubens Barrichello

5.  Felipe Massa

6.  Carlos Pace

7.  Roberto Moreno

8.  Ingo Hoffman

9.  Mauricio Gugelmin

10. Wilson Fittipaldi

I'd pretty much agree with this list, judging Hoffman on his potential as demonstrated elsewhere, rather than by his results when sitting in a bag of copper sugar.

 

For those who might rank non-F1 drivers de Ferran and Castroneves above Barrichello and Massa, well, that could possibly be right, but the great unknown is how well they'd have shone as number twos to Schumacher or Alonso. It's easy to dismiss nice guys Rubens and Felipe because they got trodden on by the world's greatest, but let's look at what they did achieve rather than what they didn't.

Edited by Sterzo, 26 December 2018 - 13:58.

[alonstar]

1.  Nelson Piquet

2.  Emerson Fittipaldi

3.  Ayrton Senna

4.  Carlos Pace

5.  Rubens Barrichello

6.  Felipe Massa

7.  Christian Fittipaldi

8.  Mauricio Gugelmin

9. Roberto Moreno

10. Cristiano da Matta

[nordschleife]

1.    Senna

2.    Piquet

3.    E. Fittipaldi

4.    Massa

5.    Barrichello

6.    Pace

7.    Moreno

8.    da Matta

9.    Gugelmin

10.  W. Fittipaldi

[NixxxoN]

Senna

Piquet

Fittipaldi

Barrichello

Massa

Pace

Di Grassi

Gugelmin

Da Matta

Moreno

[chrisj]

1. Nelson Piquet

2. Emerson Fittipaldi

3. Felipe Massa

4. Rubens Barrichello

5. Carlos Pace

6. Roberto Moreno

7. Mauricio Gugelmin

8. Cristiano da Matta

9. Alex Riberio

10. Christian Fittipaldi

[Taxi]

Senna. The fastest of them all and his wet skills  were simply amazing. Could be an ass and dirty.  He redifined the obcession about winning. Died before could add a title or 2 to his legacy. He's imo the biggest Formula 1 myth of all times. 

 

Piquet. Technicaly probabily better than Senna. He was the telemetry of his car. Very inteligent in races, faster than Prost and Mansell until his 1987 Imola accident. After that he lost the speed . not going to McLaren in 1984 prevented him of winning more races and titles. 

 

Fitipaldi. Very good but not to the level of the first 2. Had the merit of being the first brazilian champ and won in America. 

 

Barrichello Promissed to be the next Senna, had very good races, poles and compared well against Schumacher. Sadly he was a designated nº 2. Would have won 2002/2004 championships easily if schuey wasn't there. 

 

Massa Very fast on his day but inconsistent. Had he won 2008 title and not had 2009 accident maybe he would be a diferent driver. 

 

Pace Based only in statistics. 

 

Moreno, Gujelmin, da Matta, C. Fitipaldi, Piquet Jr. pretty much all in the same level. 

Edited by Taxi, 26 December 2018 - 16:48.

[Cornholio]

Senna
Piquet
E.Fittipaldi
Massa
Barrichello
Pace
Moreno
C.Fittipaldi
Da Matta
Gugelmin

3 clear groups really. The champions, the race winners, then the rest. Bit lazy perhaps but there doesnt seem to be a Brazilian equivalent of Moss or Amon who springs to mind.

Moreno tops group three because of Monaco 1992.

Hardest decisions were separating Rubens/Massa for 4th, and who to put P10. 6th may be harsh on Pace who only had a short time in a leading team that included a wasted 1976 with version 1 of the Alfa boat anchor, but still felt the Ferrari pair placed ahead of him.

As its F1 drivers only took performances/achievements there into account. Otherwise da Matta possibly higher, di Grassi/Piquet Jr contending for top 10, and Emmo up to 2nd.

Edited by Cornholio, 26 December 2018 - 17:39.

[john winfield]

'I'd pretty much agree with this list, judging Hoffman on his potential as demonstrated elsewhere, rather than by his results when sitting in a bag of copper sugar.'

 

Exactly, Sterzo. I know Hoffman's F1 results are nothing special but I still think of him as a minor superstar after seeing him in Ron Dennis's F2 Ralt at Rouen in 1977. Recovering from a puncture at the first corner he put in an astonishingly brave drive, flat out everywhere, throwing up dust each lap at the Six Frères chicane as he used every inch of track. Plum last to fifth, with fastest lap on the way, quicker than winner Cheever, Pironi, Patrese, Tambay, Arnoux etc..  Brilliant. 

[Victor]

As it would be expected pratically everyo

 

 

1.  Nelson Piquet

2.  Emerson Fittipaldi

3.  Ayrton Senna

4.  Carlos Pace

5.  Rubens Barrichello

6.  Felipe Massa

7.  Christian Fittipaldi

8.  Mauricio Gugelmin

9. Roberto Moreno

10. Cristiano da Matta

 

x2

[Regazzoni]

I put Ribeiro in my top ten for his F2 win on the Nordschleife in 1978 after a wheel to wheel combat with Cheever.

 

For the same reason I agree with the consideration Ingo Hoffman deserves as explained above,

[Regazzoni]

I won't shy away from saying that I always thought Christian Fittipaldi as a driver wasn't worth an inch of the surname he had, Good lad I am sure, but.

[RacingGreen]

1.   Emerson Fittipaldi

2.   Nelson Piquet (Snr)

3.   Carlos Pace

4.   Rubens Barrichello

5.   Felipe Massa

6.   Mauricio Gugelmin

7.   Roberto Moreno

8.   Wilson Fittipaldi

9.   Christian Fittipaldi

10. Lucas di Grassi

 

Excluded from consideration on sporting grounds,(but who would have made the list if only driving ability had been considered):  Ayrton Senna, Nelson Piquet (Jnr)

[AlexPrime]

Senna

E Fittipaldi
Piquet
Massa
Barrichello

Dunno about the rest.

[messy]

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Emerson Fittipaldi
3. Nelson Piquet
4. Felipe Massa
(Helio Castroneves)
5. Rubens Barrichello
(Gil De Ferran)
6. Carlos Pace
7. Cristiano Da Matta
8. Roberto Moreno
(Tony Kanaan)
9. Mauricio Gugelmin
10. Lucas Di Grassi

So interesting doing this to think that so many of the best Brazilian racing drivers have either never done F1 or their overall achievements were far stronger in other series than in F1. I included Da Matta and Di Grassi in the main list because they did do F1, but based on F1 alone neither would be as high up. I mean Di Grassi wouldn't even be on it at all. Castroneves and De Ferran have to be way up there despite never having raced in F1 at all.

[danmills]

Coming soon: Top 10 'Top 10' Threads.

[Sterzo]

So interesting doing this to think that so many of the best Brazilian racing drivers have either never done F1 or their overall achievements were far stronger in other series than in F1. I included Da Matta and Di Grassi in the main list because they did do F1, but based on F1 alone neither would be as high up. I mean Di Grassi wouldn't even be on it at all. Castroneves and De Ferran have to be way up there despite never having raced in F1 at all.

It's all about how you interpret the information, isn't it? Take di Grassi for example: always the bridesmaid (at best) in each of the junior series he competed in, outperformed by people like Danilo Dirani, Timo Glock, Piquet Jr, Adam Carroll, James Rossiter etc. At the time I didn't expect him to make the top. He's a quality driver but not F1 standard. Of course he's done better elsewhere - the standard, like it or not, is just not as demanding in other series.

Edited by Sterzo, 26 December 2018 - 21:42.

[Collombin]

many of the best Brazilian racing drivers have either never done F1 or their overall achievements were far stronger in other series than in F1

The US list will be a complete cluster**** for this reason, to the extent that there will almost need to be 2 separate lists.

[screamingV16]

1. A Senna

2. E Fittipaldi

3. N Piquet (snr)

4. Rubens Barrichello

5. Carlos Pace

6. F Massa

7. R Moreno

8. C Fittipaldi

9. M Gugelmin

10. C da Matta

[DeKnyff]

Senna

E Fittipaldi
Piquet
Massa
Barrichello

Dunno about the rest.

This.

 

I think it's debatable if Fittipaldi (Emerson) was better than Piquet (they were roughly equal, IMO) or if Massa was better than Barrichello (Rubens slightly better, IMO), but for the rest we can only speculate wildly. It's already difficult to rank world champions of different eras, it's virtually impossible to rank midfield drivers because there are no solid points of comparison.

 

My only doubt is how good could have been Carlos Pace if he had not been killed in that plane accident. Solid midfield, even upper midfield, but no top tier, I think.

[PlayboyRacer]

Amazed by the amount of posters placing Barrichello ahead of Massa I must say. It's interesting I find how first impressions tend to form most peoples opinions, despite what may come after.

The only indicator I would have Rubens ahead in is wet weather ability/changeable conditions and, even then, Massa wasn't as bad as some would make out. Whilst Rubens wasn't 'Hockenheim 2000' on every damp day.

Massa in a different class imo. On his day was super fast, took down Raikkonens god like status in 07/08 when no one had given him a chance of getting near him... fought for the 2008 WDC against no less than Hamilton and came agonisingly close. Ironically on a day there was 'changeable conditions'.

His career tailed off after his accident granted but, take both their peaks, Massa > Barrichello

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 27 December 2018 - 01:59.

[Gary Davies]

Excluded from consideration on sporting grounds,(but who would have made the list if only driving ability had been considered): Ayrton Senna, Nelson Piquet (Jnr)[/size][/font][/size][/font][/indent]

This a very controversial point of view. However, it is one I very much share and something I have felt for many years. I find I just cannot include either Senna or Schumacher in any ‘best of’ discussions. Sure, I concede that those who get to the top in any pursuit - sport, politics, commerce - are likely to be, what?.... monsters.

But there’s always a line in the sand and its placement is going to vary from person to person.

For me, Senna and Schumacher very clearly and very cynically crossed ‘my’ line. Potentially, Giuseppe Farina also crossed the line and therein lies my elimination of the two S’s from my greatest ever lists. They exploited the relative safety of the era in which they drove as a weapon to bludgeon their rivals. For those who don’t understand the term relative, please think about the buildings on the outside of the Masta Kink, narrow crossply tyres and 50 gallons of aviation fuel under, around and behind you.

What the two S’s did was to debase their other worldly gifts with.... tackiness. Totally classless.

You might say that Alonso and Hamilton are somewhat in the same ballpark in terms of talent and drive and the reason I absolutely do include them in a notional list of greats is that, notwithstanding whatever they may do or say out of the cockpit, they have never segwayed their talent into on-track thugishness.

[PlayboyRacer]

It's a totally fair and valid point you make Gary Davies. I say that as absolutely a Senna fan... still to this day I have no idea how he managed to get away with Japan 1990.

I still wouldn't go so far as to leave him totally off a list but if your emphasis is ethics and conduct... each to their own.

[as65p]

It's a totally fair and valid point you make Gary Davies.

 

The ultimate test of the points fairness and validity is of course, does Alain Prost get the same judgement for doing the same thing as Senna and Schumacher, i.e. winning a championship by deliberately causing an accident with his WDC rival?

[potmotr]

Unpopular opinion here... Senna will always be behind Piquet and Fittipaldi for me, on account of being so dirty.

 

A generation of drivers, including Schumacher, took their queues from his conduct on track.

[Henri Greuter]

Unpopular opinion here... Senna will always be behind Piquet and Fittipaldi for me, on account of being so dirty.
 
A generation of drivers, including Schumacher, took their queues from his conduct on track.

You're not entirely alone in this opinion. Rare as it is, there still are a few more people who feel exactly the same.
Fortunately.

[Touchdown]

The ultimate test of the points fairness and validity is of course, does Alain Prost get the same judgement for doing the same thing as Senna and Schumacher, i.e. winning a championship by deliberately causing an accident with his WDC rival?

This is always something that has irritated me - why is Prost not called out for winning a title by causing an accident when Senna and Schumacher are?

[Gary Davies]

The ultimate test of the points fairness and validity is of course, does Alain Prost get the same judgement for doing the same thing as Senna and Schumacher, i.e. winning a championship by deliberately causing an accident with his WDC rival?

Are you, I wonder, thinking about the collision at the chicane at Suzuka? If so, I would respectfully suggest you take a closer look at the nuances around that incident. The last thing I seek to be is a Prost apologist but I do believe that unfortunate incident was not characteristic of Prost’s general modus operandi.

[Touchdown]

Are you, I wonder, thinking about the collision at the chicane at Suzuka? If so, I would respectfully suggest you take a closer look at the nuances around that incident. The last thing I seek to be is a Prost apologist but I do believe that unfortunate incident was not characteristic of Prost’s general modus operandi.

It may not have been characteristic, but the fact remains that he still did it, he still crashed into Senna in an attempt to win the WDC. Exactly the same as Senna did a year later (though what Senna did was undoubtedly far more dangerous due to the speeds involved).

Edited by Touchdown, 27 December 2018 - 14:22.

[noikeee]

1. Ayrton Senna

2. Emerson Fittipaldi

3. Nelson Piquet

4. Rubens Barrichello

5. Felipe Massa

6. Carlos Pace

7. Christian Fittipaldi

8. Roberto Moreno

9. Mauricio Gugelmin

10. Cristiano da Matta

 

This is the easiest list so far, pretty clear "tier" breakdown between the 3 world champs, the 2 Ferrari #2s and Pace, the solid midfielders, and the rest good drivers but not good enough for the top 10.

Edited by noikeee, 27 December 2018 - 14:39.

[Sterzo]

It may not have been characteristic, but the fact remains that he still did it, he still crashed into Senna in an attempt to win the WDC. Exactly the same as Senna did a year later (though what Senna did was undoubtedly far more dangerous due to the speeds involved).

You are telling us Prost's intent here, which we do not know. I for one don't read that intent into the incident.

On the other hand, we know Senna's intent: he stated it himself subsequently.

[potmotr]

1. Nelson Piquet

2. Emerson Fittipaldi

3. Ayrton Senna

4. Felipe Massa

5. Carlos Pace

6. Rubens Barrichello

7. Cristiano da Matta

8. Lucas di Grassi

9. Roberto Moreno 

10. Bruno Senna 

[as65p]

You are telling us Prost's intent here, which we do not know. I for one don't read that intent into the incident.

On the other hand, we know Senna's intent: he stated it himself subsequently.

 

That's indeed the thing that really stands out about Suzuka '90: Sennas admission a year later. Prosts case is rather standard for such controversies, they are left for everyone to discuss forever, who did what with what intent. As long as Prost doesn't admit to have done it in order to crash Senna out of the race [to avoid be overtaken], people can claim forever that Alains much tighter and onto-the-grass trajectory into the chicane isn't proof of his intentions,

 

Just as, if Senna had never said anything, it would still be a valid position to blame Prost for not closing the door properly into turn one a year later.

[Touchdown]

You are telling us Prost's intent here, which we do not know. I for one don't read that intent into the incident.

On the other hand, we know Senna's intent: he stated it himself subsequently.

True, Prost never admitted his intentions. But I think anyone who objectively looks at the footage can tell he was trying to take out Senna.

 

In the same vein, Schumacher never admitted he tried to take out Hill in 1994 - are you giving him the same benefit of the doubt?

[Taxi]

 

1. Ayrton Senna

2. Emerson Fittipaldi

3. Nelson Piquet

4. Rubens Barrichello

5. Felipe Massa

6. Carlos Pace

7. Christian Fittipaldi

8. Roberto Moreno

9. Mauricio Gugelmin

10. Cristiano da Matta

 

This is the easiest list so far, pretty clear "tier" breakdown between the 3 world champs, the 2 Ferrari #2s and Pace, the solid midfielders, and the rest good drivers but not good enough for the top 10.

 

 

 Putting Fitipaldi above Piquet is very very debatable. 

 

http://www.4mula1.ro...950&yearto=2018

Edited by Taxi, 27 December 2018 - 17:59.

[noriaki]

 Putting Fitipaldi above Piquet is very very debatable. 

 

http://www.4mula1.ro...950&yearto=2018

 

I agree it's close between the two when it comes to F1-only achievements. But pure stats are awful at settling this particular debate since Emmo enjoyed competitive equipment for 4 seasons and a bit over his career (and won two titles during those), whereas Piquet had ten years in machinery capable of winning races. 

[Sterzo]

True, Prost never admitted his intentions. But I think anyone who objectively looks at the footage can tell he was trying to take out Senna.

The word is "subjectively". Senna set up the manouevre; he was overtaking Prost and yes, Prost was stubborn in not giving space. That's a world away from deliberately ramming someone from behind as Senna did. But perhaps enough (or maybe too much!) has been written about these incidents.

[Taxi]

@noriaki

 

Winning races yes but he also had very unreliable/bad cars in the process: The 1979 1982, 1984, 1985 Brabhams were either uncompetitve or unreliable. 1988/1989 lotus horrible cars. In 1990 he had the 4th best car and finished in 3rd the championship just behind Prost and Senna at 39 years old.   He had the  realistic chance for 5 titles won 3 and was 2nd and 3rd in the other years. He was the class of the field roughly from 1980 to 1984. He was a bit of an 80's Alonso: only lost twice to team mates by very litle and they were called Niki Lauda and Nigel Mansell. Fitipaldi had very poor team mates in his team except Rosberg who matched him in 1980.

 

Plus Piquet entered in formula 1 quite late [27] 2-3 years latter than Prost and Senna. 

 

[I know i'm a fan but a realistic one: Senna was better overall, but not Fitipaldi.]

Edited by Taxi, 27 December 2018 - 18:57.

[PayasYouRace]

Piquet didn’t exactly have a challenge to finish 3rd in 1990. Mansell was the only one who should have finished ahead of him but he bore the brunt of Ferrari’s unreliability. His B190 was at worst a very close 4th best that year. I’d say it was on a par with the FW13B and both were close enough to the MP4/5B and 641 for the driver to be a big factor. But the latter was only driven by Patrese and Boutsen.

[noriaki]

@noriaki

 

Winning races yes but he also had very unreliable/bad cars in the process: The 1979 1982, 1984, 1985 Brabhams were either uncompetitve or unreliable. 1988/1989 lotus horrible cars. In 1990 he had the 4th best car and finished in 3rd the championship just behind Prost and Senna at 39 years old.   He had the  realistic chance for 5 titles won 3 and was 2nd and 3rd in the other years. He was the class of the field roughly from 1980 to 1984. He was a bit of an 80's Alonso: only lost twice to team mates by very litle and they were called Niki Lauda and Nigel Mansell. Fitipaldi had very poor team mates in his team except Rosberg who matched him in 1980.

 

Plus Piquet entered in formula 1 quite late [27] 2-3 years latter than Prost and Senna. 

 

[I know i'm a fan but a realistic one: Senna was better overall, but not Fitipaldi.]

 

Don't get me wrong, I rate Piquet who was very fast in the early eighties.

 

But I think Fittipaldi was way more of an Alonso and Piquet akin to Vettel. Emmo had 4 "realistic" shots for titles, twice becoming the champ and was 2nd the other years.

 

As far as team-mates go, arguably Chapman at least tried to hire somewhat promising drivers as Emmo's #2's in Wisell and Walker yet Emmo just made them look poor. Whereas, when it comes to Piquet's team-mates @ Brabham, Bernie was just taking the piss with Zunino, Rebaque and Hesnault. 

 

Besides, are you calling Ronnie Peterson "very poor"? 

[as65p]

The word is "subjectively". Senna set up the manouevre; he was overtaking Prost and yes, Prost was stubborn in not giving space. That's a world away from deliberately ramming someone from behind as Senna did. But perhaps enough (or maybe too much!) has been written about these incidents.

 

Too much crap, certainly. Prost wasn't "not giving space", he actively moved his car into Sennas, turning right way before normal corner entry, with Senna already partly alongside. Senna running into the back of Prost a year later looked more spectacular, but ultimately they were both doing the same thing, driving into their direct WDC opponent to win the championship.

[noikeee]

 Putting Fitipaldi above Piquet is very very debatable. 

 

http://www.4mula1.ro...950&yearto=2018

 

I did hesitate between Emmo and Nelson, but chose Emmo mostly because I think he has a slightly stronger claim at being the outright best driver in the grid at one given stage, than Nelson has. This since I'm having a look at team-mate comparisons a lot to have some basis for filling my lists:

 

http://f1-facts.com/...s/teammates/583

http://f1-facts.com/...tes/EFittipaldi

 

Nelson was thought off to be the grid's benchmark for the early 80s, but was later a bit exposed when up against Nigel Mansell, with the Nigel/Nelson battle being pretty much a draw. With Mansell having been beaten by Prost, Rosberg, de Angelis; and then Senna further proven to be considerably quicker than Prost, on hindsight I struggle to see Piquet as at best more than a distant joint 3rd in his generation to Prost/Senna.

 

Poor team-mates seems a strange criticism to throw at Emmo given than Piquet made his name against poor team-mates as well: Zunino, Rebaque, young brothers Fabi on a bizarre rotation scheme, Hesnault, Surer, later Nakajima as well. I'm pretty much not considering any of that, just as I'm not considering Fittipaldi's achievements against Wisell or poor Dave Walker whose skills evaporated in F1.

 

Emmo at his best comfortably outscored world champion Denny Hulme (albeit on his later years) and Jochen Mass. He also marginally beat Ronnie Peterson on points and reliability, although Ronnie was comfortably quicker in qualifying - I'd consider that a draw or Ronnie's marginal win, but Ronnie was pretty much the benchmark talent on the grid at the time. You would probably say the best of that early 70s era was either Ronnie or most likely Jackie Stewart. And I believe Emmo was closer to Jackie/Ronnie than Nelson was to his respective era benchmark Senna.

 

That's not to say Nelson was bad, of course not. His finest "team-mate" achievements were possibly a) being fairly superior to Patrese (althouhg reliability would make him lose on points in 82) and b) keeping up with Lauda as a young unexperienced driver (but how motivated was Lauda in 79?).

 

The careers of both drivers had pretty similar late decay. In later years Piquet was not super convincing against either Nannini or Moreno (although beat them), and Emmo also was marginally beaten by Keke Rosberg - but Keke would later reveal himself a world champion. Amusingly that's a characteristic that Piquet shares as his last team-mate would also later get crowned champion: Michael Schumacher.

 

Moving on from team-mates as that's not the whole story. Keeping their heads up under the pressure of fighting a world championship is a characteristic both revered in. Both won it with 2 different teams which is a remarkable achievement, but again they're only equal here. Nelson did win 1 more but had more chances at it.

 

But finally, a big Emerson achievement and possibly the final thing that gives me the tiny edge for placing him over Piquet, is he became the youngest champion and would hold that record for a couple of decades.