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McLaren MCL34


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#601 midgrid

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:14

Surely it's only a matter of time before F1 itself has a tobacco-company-not-a-tobacco-company partner? :p

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#602 JHSingo

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:18

I've never understood the fuss about tobacco sponsorship, to be honest.

 

I watched F1 from a very early age when more than half the grid were sponsored by tobacco companies (Ferrari with Marlboro, McLaren with West, Jordan with Benson and Hedges, Benetton with Mild Seven and then there was the BAR  team...). Surely given my young impressionable brain was exposed to all this awful advertising back then, I'd have turned into a lung cancer suffering chain smoker by my early 20s? Nope, never touched a cigarette in my life.

 

I hate smokers. I hate having to hold my breath whenever I walk past one. But the tobacco sponsorship ban was a financial disaster for many teams, and perhaps one of the biggest mistakes the sport has ever made. I don't believe for a second that people would start smoking just because they see a sticker on a racing car. People will make their own choices in life.


Edited by JHSingo, 11 February 2019 - 13:21.


#603 Maustinsj

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:20

How unkind you all are. Surely we should admire enterprise "centred on accelerating BAT's transforming agenda, leveraging its portfolio of potentially reduced risk products."
Cough.


You’d best cut down your intake!

#604 Stephane

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:21

Tobacco was already known as a bad thing when you started watching.



#605 Ivanhoe

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:26

I've never understood the fuss about tobacco sponsorship, to be honest.
 
I watched F1 from a very early age when more than half the grid were sponsored by tobacco companies (Ferrari with Marlboro, McLaren with West, Jordan with Benson and Hedges, Benetton with Mild Seven and then there was the BAR  team...). Surely given my young impressionable brain was exposed to all this awful advertising back then, I'd have turned into a lung cancer suffering chain smoker by my early 20s? Nope, never touched a cigarette in my life.
 
I hate smokers. I hate having to hold my breath whenever I walk past one. But the tobacco sponsorship ban was a financial disaster for many teams, and perhaps one of the biggest mistakes the sport has ever made. I don't believe for a second that people would start smoking just because they see a sticker on a racing car. People will make their own choices in life.

Good you made your own and the right choice on smoking. Doesn’t work for everyone that way though, marketing and advertising works, otherwise companies wouldn’t spent a penny on it.

#606 Clatter

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:26

I've never understood the fuss about tobacco sponsorship, to be honest.

I watched F1 from a very early age when more than half the grid were sponsored by tobacco companies (Ferrari with Marlboro, McLaren with West, Jordan with Benson and Hedges, Benetton with Mild Seven and then there was the BAR team...). Surely given my young impressionable brain was exposed to all this awful advertising back then, I'd have turned into a lung cancer suffering chain smoker by my early 20s? Nope, never touched a cigarette in my life.

I hate smokers. I hate having to hold my breath whenever I walk past one. But the tobacco sponsorship ban was a financial disaster for many teams, and perhaps one of the biggest mistakes the sport has ever made. I don't believe for a second that people would start smoking just because they see a sticker on a racing car. People will make their own choices in life.

The ban was forced on the sport (no bad thing) as governments across the globe banned cigarette advertising. The alternative would be no F1 on TV.

#607 Christbiscuit

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:26

I hate smokers. I hate having to hold my breath whenever I walk past one. But the tobacco sponsorship ban was a financial disaster for many teams, and perhaps one of the biggest mistakes the sport has ever made.

 

The decision was made for the sport, not by the sport.



#608 CPR

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:34

Seems like Zak is playing with fire with this sponsorship!   ;)

 

3 days until we can discuss the actual car - the best time of year for the armchair aerodynamicists!



#609 dierome87

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:36

Frankly, I'm surprised this wasn't done before. 

 

Ferrari spent nearly a decade with subliminal Marlboro advertising, it was about time someone else did the same.

 

I don't smoke but I think it's good to see some sponsors back. The sport needs them. 



#610 Cornholio

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:43

Good you made your own and the right choice on smoking. Doesn’t work for everyone that way though, marketing and advertising works, otherwise companies wouldn’t spent a penny on it.

 

As a smoker, yes honestly F1 sponsorship didn't make me start, but once I had it did influence what brands I chose, if for no other reason that when I'm at the counter (with the selection hidden from view as per the law) I have to tell whoever's behind the counter what I want so I'm going to go with ones I've heard of.



#611 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:45

Perhaps Andrew Benson from off of the BBC could sponsor one of the teams with his new garden pruning business where one of the shareholders is a Tobbaco company that wants to show its green credentials.

Bensons Hedges splashed on the side of the car... lovely.

#612 messy

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:58

I used to smoke until I went cold turkey last year and haven't looked at one since, but it sure as hell wasnt anything to do with F1. Back in the days I first watched F1 every car on the grid basically had tobacco sponsorship all over it. And I do actually think that was damaging - because whether you intended it or not, through watching F1 you got to know all the brands, the colours, associated with the tobacco industry. Kids are impressionable. I don't think F1 had anything to do with me starting to smoke - that was a lame attempt to do the most rebellious thing I could imagine when I moved out of home - but I do remember really vividly having a conversation with a schoolfriend where he told me that he'd smoke Benson and Hedges to support the Jordan team. That can't be good. I mean, this "schoolfriend" eventually ended up in jail after Police found indecent images in his computer a few years later, so he wasn't exactly a normal case, but still.

#613 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 13:58

Is good to see more sponsors in car, they´re welcome :)



#614 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 14:14

I used to smoke until I went cold turkey last year and haven't looked at one since, but it sure as hell wasnt anything to do with F1. Back in the days I first watched F1 every car on the grid basically had tobacco sponsorship all over it. And I do actually think that was damaging - because whether you intended it or not, through watching F1 you got to know all the brands, the colours, associated with the tobacco industry. Kids are impressionable. I don't think F1 had anything to do with me starting to smoke - that was a lame attempt to do the most rebellious thing I could imagine when I moved out of home - but I do remember really vividly having a conversation with a schoolfriend where he told me that he'd smoke Benson and Hedges to support the Jordan team. That can't be good. I mean, this "schoolfriend" eventually ended up in jail after Police found indecent images in his computer a few years later, so he wasn't exactly a normal case, but still.


Indeed. My father used to smoke roll-up smokes in the 1990’s and I knew the brand was golden Virginia... I only knew that because I used to go and pick it up from his supplier. He’s since given up without the help of vapes or any of that stuff, and I’m very proud of him for that. Similarly my father in law was a heavy smoker and would smoke more than a packet a day, and has managed to give up by using a vape. I genuinely thought his last breath would be on a cigarette, so I can see where vapes have helped (assuming there’s no awful side-effects that become apparent down the line!)

However; you’re correct in terms of F1 exposing us to brands. I consider myself headstrong and would say ‘I’m not influenced’ by seeing stickers on the side of a racing car. But aside from golden Virginia, I couldn’t have told you a name of a cigarette manufacturer/provider until I became a viewer of F1. They have become etched in my memories now, so if there was a pub quiz question tomorrow of ‘name 10 cigarette brands’ I’d literally think of F1 car liveries to generate the answers. I’ve never smoked a cig in my life, but I know of all these brands off the top of my head because of their history of being involved in the sport.

Marlboro
West
Benson & Hedges
Rothmans
Winfield
Camel
Lucky strike
555
John Player
Gitanes
Mild Seven
Gauloises

#615 ixnay

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 14:20

I'd be more surprised if it wasn't a major partnership. BAT ain't exactly small potatoes. What's the point otherwise?

McLaren Applied Technologies holding patents over vaping things? That's a constant stream of licencing income for the McLaren Group.

 

However, the announcement and partnership are also linked to the F1 core team. So it would have to include car, driver, or motorhome branding.



#616 chrisj

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 14:36

Has BAT actually seen McLaren's results lately, or its current driver lineup? Do they know Alonso isn't driving anymore?



#617 Traction

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 14:41

Has BAT actually seen McLaren's results lately, or its current driver lineup? Do they know Alonso isn't driving anymore?

no i'm sure they've signed a multi million pound sponsorship agreement without knowing any of this....



#618 HP

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 15:07

The ban was forced on the sport (no bad thing) as governments across the globe banned cigarette advertising. The alternative would be no F1 on TV.

The best alternative however would be if some bio lab would find a better and similar profitable use for tobacco leaves.



#619 Enkei

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 15:10

McLaren's BAT sponsorship signing getting more attention than STR's new 2019 car :drunk:



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#620 Mc_Silver

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 15:16

McLaren's BAT sponsorship signing getting more attention than STR's new 2019 car :drunk:


LOL

#621 pup

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 15:18

no i'm sure they've signed a multi million pound sponsorship agreement without knowing any of this....

Well, if they're dumb enough to think that the phrase "potentially reduced risk product" belongs anywhere but an internal memo...



#622 McLobby

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 16:01

Really McLaren? You couldn’t find anything other than tobacco? I know times are tough but I was really hoping I’d seen the last of them on the team I’d always supported.

I wonder if they’d checked with their other partners first. Plenty of companies want absolutely nothing to do with tobacco.

 

 

Disappointed with McLaren (and Ferrari) here. Can understand that they need the money, but there’s a time and place for dealing with tobacco. The place may be F1, but the time was 20 years ago.

Not only that, but the fact that they’re only “potentially” risk reducing.

 

I think you people are overreacting.... way way way more people die from pollution, even though it's not their choice to inhale it! I didn't see any complaints at the fuel companies sponsorship... and lets not talk about alcohol....



#623 mclarensmps

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 16:28

I have a sudden urge to smoke.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Oh wait, no I don't...



#624 pup

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 17:05

I have the sudden urge to try a potentially reduced risk product.  Does another cup of coffee count?



#625 BRG

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 17:32

I have the sudden urge to try a potentially reduced risk product.  Does another cup of coffee count?

Try one of these Rich Energy drinks - it is a premium product made from luxury water and suger and other muck ingredients



#626 pup

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 17:41

Try one of these Rich Energy drinks - it is a premium product made from luxury water and suger and other muck ingredients

 

I suspect Rich Energy is as much vapor as BAT's eCigs.  



#627 f1rules

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 17:50

i think torro rosso lengthened the front part of the chassis, probably because of less outwash they move the frontwheels further forward for not to disturb the airflow to the rear, i expect to see similar from mclaren especially and other teams also

97-BDBC19-D944-40-D8-9-B80-74-FAA49-BC7-

 

DzJM8n6X0AARLX3.jpg


Edited by f1rules, 11 February 2019 - 18:11.


#628 mclarensmps

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 17:52

Try one of these Rich Energy drinks - it is a premium product made from luxury water and suger and other muck ingredients

 

To be enjoyed with nothing less than Glace Premium Ice: http://www.glaceice....te_Pre-pay.html



#629 TheMessiah

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 19:43

Not sure how I feel about the BAT sponsorship deal. On the one hand I figure at least McLaren have signed a deal with BAT rather than another team, on the other hand it feels like a big backwards step. They are getting back into sponsorship as they have clearly seen how Philip Morris have managed to get around the tobacco advertising ban.



#630 sgtkate

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 20:19

To be enjoyed with nothing less than Glace Premium Ice: http://www.glaceice....te_Pre-pay.html


Can't tell if genuine or not anymore. Argh.

#631 as65p

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 20:35

Can't tell if genuine or not anymore. Argh.

 

Hmm, 10 % off, it's a real bargain surely.



#632 Nicktendo86

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 23:06

I was massively negative about Ferrari for taking tobacco money all these years so I would be a massive hypocrite if I celebrated this BAT deal.

Ok sod it, I'm a hypocrite, fantastic news and I hope it means a nice injection of funds.

I am definitely in my 'hopes hyped beyond reasonable expectations before car launch's phase.

#633 Jazza

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 01:06

In all fairness to BAT and PM, they know that tobacco won’t make a profit forever. Just like car companies are trying to move away from ICE and big oil companies are looking for other forms of energy to invest in, sooner or later BAT and PM will stop making tobacco products as there won’t be the billions of dollars in it that there was in the 20th century.

British American Tobacco will probably become British American Technology one day, making anything from solar panels to holographic monitors, and what are people going to do? Cut them out the market because they used to sell cancer sticks back when the future CEO was still in dippers?

I know it’s a grey area at the moment as tobacco is still their main income, but it seems a bit of overkill to be shutting down any attempt of a new direction.

#634 SB

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 01:33

McLaren's BAT sponsorship signing getting more attention than STR's new 2019 car :drunk:

 

Because we are all waiting for the real RedBull car but not a new RedBull clone  :lol:



#635 Nathan

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 03:37

I know it’s a grey area at the moment as tobacco is still their main income, but it seems a bit of overkill to be shutting down any attempt of a new direction.

 

BAT's new direction is selling just nicotine, eg electronic vapes/cigs/fags...and eventually THC/CBD.



#636 f1rules

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 04:37

Racecar engineering - about the MCL33

 

very interesting, did you read the whole article? or where did you find this part



#637 kosmos

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 07:08

The Spanish press is saying Fernando and McLaren agree to do two testing days, unclear if is full days or just half day. Also unclear if is going to be in pre-season testing or during the season.



#638 Alburaq

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 08:43

very interesting, did you read the whole article? or where did you find this part

 

Yes it's in the march 2019 issue https://www.chelseam...igital-edition/

Some of the interesting parts:

 

‘We didn’t change the rear suspension concept. The gear casing was designed and tooled before we decided to change,’ Simon Roberts, McLaren Racing’s chief operation
officer says. ‘We might have moved some of the legs around slightly but it was not major, the gearbox and suspension layout was essentially as originally intended. Internally it is a mechanical layout, we have not gone the hydraulic route, we just have nice packaging.’
 
At the front the suspension is a conventional double wishbone layout with pushrod actuated torsion bars and dampers. But Roberts is reluctant to go into detail, preferring instead
to discuss the general principles of suspension systems in Formula 1 at present. ‘Most of the suspension travel is in the tyre, so what the suspension really does is get the right mechanical balance in the car, and to a certain extent hold the car where you want it for the aero, but that is where you can get in a mess,’he says. ‘I think the differentiator on the grid is that you have cars that have got highly developed wide aero maps, which can allow a lot more suspension travel and still retain a high degree of performance; then there are cars which have very sophisticated devices linked to suspension which allow them to hold the car at certain attitudes. In the last two years there has been quite a bit of that.We played around the edges of that, but generally speaking we have not raced it because it’s a trade off of performance vs weight vs complexity and reliability. I think if you go the hydraulic route you have a lot more freedom to play in some of those spaces, if you go mechanical you have other benefits. It’s a trade off between those additional pipes, weight, issues with the car and things like that. It’s a compromise and you have to decide where you want to sit on that.’
 
‘It is easy in hindsight to look back and say that it was not a great F1 car, but the work that went into it and the dedication of the team was tremendous,’he says. ‘A couple of times during the season I foundmyself stood at the front of the garage looking at the thing thinking what a beautifully engineered racing car it was, and wondering why it just wasn’t faster. In the detail it’s a really nice car but as a complete package it just missed the mark in terms of performance.
‘There are parts of the car that worked really well, there are some things that we are really proud of on it,’Roberts adds. ‘Some of the good things I can’t discuss because I don’t want to give away any competitive advantage.
‘Other teams have copied bits of our nose,’ Roberts says. ‘Nose concepts are interesting as you commit to it and optimise the racecar around it, I think that went very well for us on this car. When you are racing people don’t see what is going on behind the scenes, but our nose crash programme went really well, it showed the depth and breadth of experience we have here at McLaren.’
 
Another of the parts of the MCL33 which did work really well, according to the team, also highlights one of the biggest weaknesses of this design. ‘Ironically, the front wheel blowing was probably class leading, [but] unfortunately that was not something this car needed, it needed a lot of other stuff,’ Roberts says. ‘In hindsight we focussed on something, took it to the ultimate degree, but it did not yield the results we had hoped for. Other teams who do not use it at all spent time and effort on other things which turned out to be more productive, it was really good engineering, and really good execution, but not right for this car. ‘Unfortunately there were other parts that did not work at all, things we would have done differently had we known then what we know now,’Roberts adds. ‘We followed a philosophy that other teams did not follow.We were not trying to be different or clever, we just went down an avenue, and fundamentally could not generate enough outwash on the car to deal with the wheel wakes. That, in a nutshell, is where we struggled. In a straight line it was okay, but as soon as you got to a corner and started turning in you started having issues.’
 
The MCL33 looked very similar to the MCL32. The car featured just a small engine air intake on the roll hoop, as well as relatively small ducts in each sidepod. In fact, it not only looked simple, but also under-cooled. The press and public were not the only people to be surprised by the MCL33’s cooling layout.
‘Renault were shocked when they saw our car, with the size of the air intakes,’ Roberts says. ‘They really questioned us strongly, asking if we were sure we had got it right, and if we were getting enough air. I don’t want to say that the cooling system is class leading because that sounds a bit arrogant, but the guys did a really good job, especially in terms of efficiency, it was great. Had the car been quick everyone would have loved it, but it wasn’t, and if a car is not quick then people kind of miss those details.’
As for the centreline cooling layout and the short sidepods McLaren decided against using them for reasons beyond the thermal demands of the rear end of the car. ‘We didn’t
use centreline cooling due to concerns over centre of gravity, which is higher with that layout,’ Roberts says. ‘If you look at some of the cars using centreline cooling they also have quite large sidepod inlets. I think more teams have converged on our type of solution in terms of coolers. Certainly the teams with the lower Ferrari style central crash tubes have had to.’
 

 

 


Edited by Alburaq, 12 February 2019 - 08:44.


#639 LookButDontStare

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 09:03

 

 

looks like we get orange teamwear, hope it's better quality than last few years :clap:



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#640 ensign14

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 09:41

Good you made your own and the right choice on smoking. Doesn’t work for everyone that way though, marketing and advertising works, otherwise companies wouldn’t spent a penny on it.

 

The question is whether tobacco advertising persuaded people to smoke, or smokers to change brands.  No idea whether research was done on it.
 



#641 Hamm

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 09:53

"We're delighted that Andreas is able to join the team on 1 May. This enables us to continue the momentum of our recovery plan and we’re looking forward to welcoming him to McLaren.”
https://www.mclaren...._campaign=Seidl

#642 Rinehart

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:50

I believe its subject to the same laws as the cigarette ban, but as as a non-smoker I'll be happy when both are banned from all public places. Nothing to do with being a do-gooder, just think its disgusting.

I agree with you on a lot of subjects Clatter, but not this one! 

 

F1 races in countries with very poor human rights records, receives sponsorship from energy drinks and alcohol drinks brands that, potentially, cause a great deal of harm to humans, is itself promoting the automotive industry and the burning of fuels which negatively and vastly impacts our global climate which compromises us all, whilst glorifying driving fast... and on more than one occasion teams and races have been, ahem, rumoured to be financed by fraudulent activity, most recently Force India with, allegedly stolen funds. All these examples seem to get a free pass, everyone looks the other way, whilst tobacco and now modern tobacco heating products seem to be the go to outrage. It just feels like a bit of a herd mentality to me, I'm not sure people are applying the same standard of acceptability to other issues in comparison to e tobacco. Over and above this, consider the alternative, there are so many myths about vaping. Cancer UK say there are NO deaths attributed to vaping, vaping does not contain any tar or carbon monoxide the two standout dangers of smoking and there are no risks to the public as only aerosol is exhaled. This is all on the UK government website heath matters. Frankly being against alternative tobacco promotion is like being against electric vehicles non-alcoholic beer advertising. 

 

I'll also add, I consider this post very much on topic as the reputation and value of the McLaren brand is very much key to its success on track and obviously the divisive nature of their latest avenue of income has the potential to compromise that status. I fully expect McLaren will have examined all of the advantages and disadvantages and trust their judgement. Ultimately they have secured funding from a source that is currently not banned and I do not think McLaren should be expected to self-regulate, otherwise Ferrari, in this case, have an advantage worth $100m which you could argue is worth 0.5 seconds per lap in some sort of a back of a fag packet calculation about performance per $ of development resource. 



#643 Maustinsj

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:08

Or back of a vape-liquid packet. :p



#644 Rinehart

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:13

Or back of a vape-liquid packet. :p

Bonus point for contemporary pun! 



#645 bogi

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:16

I can't imagine drama on this thread if McLaren declined tobacco money. 



#646 OSX

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:23

Great news! :up:  Of course it would be even better if we would see actual tobacco brand liveries again.



#647 Maustinsj

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:25

You stirrer!



#648 Owen

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:28

No going back to those days! 



#649 Lennat

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:41

I agree with you on a lot of subjects Clatter, but not this one! 

 

F1 races in countries with very poor human rights records, receives sponsorship from energy drinks and alcohol drinks brands that, potentially, cause a great deal of harm to humans, is itself promoting the automotive industry and the burning of fuels which negatively and vastly impacts our global climate which compromises us all, whilst glorifying driving fast... and on more than one occasion teams and races have been, ahem, rumoured to be financed by fraudulent activity, most recently Force India with, allegedly stolen funds. All these examples seem to get a free pass, everyone looks the other way, whilst tobacco and now modern tobacco heating products seem to be the go to outrage. It just feels like a bit of a herd mentality to me, I'm not sure people are applying the same standard of acceptability to other issues in comparison to e tobacco. Over and above this, consider the alternative, there are so many myths about vaping. Cancer UK say there are NO deaths attributed to vaping, vaping does not contain any tar or carbon monoxide the two standout dangers of smoking and there are no risks to the public as only aerosol is exhaled. This is all on the UK government website heath matters. Frankly being against alternative tobacco promotion is like being against electric vehicles non-alcoholic beer advertising. 

 

 

 

 

I would actually MUCH prefer if BAT and Philip Morris advertised actual vaping products rather than some diffuse "improving the world for the better" thing that was only created to get around the tobacco advertising laws. As you said, the risks with vaping appear to be very minor, since nicotine isn't really very bad in itself, and you get rid of pretty much all the bad stuff in real cigarettes. 



#650 Rinehart

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:53

I would actually MUCH prefer if BAT and Philip Morris advertised actual vaping products rather than some diffuse "improving the world for the better" thing that was only created to get around the tobacco advertising laws. As you said, the risks with vaping appear to be very minor, since nicotine isn't really very bad in itself, and you get rid of pretty much all the bad stuff in real cigarettes. 

 

Agree, but they're playing to the rules set for them. For now I'm just commenting on the principle issues of the origin of the funds, rather than what the logo actually says.