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Senna, Schumacher, etc. In today’s paddock. [Split]


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#51 NotAPineapple

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 13:05

Source?

A member of the team at the time

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#52 potmotr

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 16:18

I think they're rightfully be (respectfully) considered yesterday's men.

 

Had he lived Senna would probably be at least 20 years retired by now. 

 

As for Schumacher, he was basically left alone by the press after he'd retired on his paddock visits from 2007 - 2009. As has been written, the guy usually swamped by cameras was often seen wandering about completely alone.

 

The sport doesn't stand still.  



#53 BuddyHolly

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 19:58

Drivers kind of just become the joke if they hang around the paddock. Look at Herbert or Hill. There is no huge respect for their achievements or anything, they mostly just seem to be the butt of bad jokes or mocking.

When did Herbert ever achieve anything (above three gifted wins) apart from being bitter and rather annoying?



#54 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 20:12

When did Herbert ever achieve anything (above three gifted wins) apart from being bitter and rather annoying?


After his accident at Brands Hatch even driving a formula 1 car was an achievement.

#55 lustigson

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:47

Senna and Schumacher post Imola, now there's a subject that someone should write a book about.

 

Oh, wait: https://senna-versus-schumacher.com    ;)



#56 Nonesuch

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:20

I think they're rightfully be (respectfully) considered yesterday's men.

 

For sure, which is why it's always such a mystery to me when people say they want F1 to have 'the best drivers'.

 

The drivers often aren't that big of a deal, it's F1 that makes them special, not the other way around.

 

There are some stand-out guys, but they'd also do well in other series - while remaining relatively unknown.

 

Ask your average F1 viewer who Scott Dixon or Frank Biela is and they'd probably not have a clue.



#57 CSF

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 11:57

The thought of Senna in that 96 Ferrari has always amused me, it would make the moans of 92/93 seem like nothing.  :lol:



#58 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 14:08

Schumacher always struck me as a man very talented in one thing, and unable to translate it outside of his narrow field of expertise.  He would probably not that active in the sport after his second retirement, and no one would beat down his doors for anything that was no ceremonial. 

 

Senna would probably be in the Stewart or Lauda mold:  capable to be successful in multiple endeavors, but saying intelligent things about the sport not being one of them.  I guess the same psychology that makes someone a successful driver also makes them resistant to recognizing the limits of their knowledge and understanding.



#59 danmills

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 15:06

When did Herbert ever achieve anything (above three gifted wins) apart from being bitter and rather annoying?

 

Off topic somewhat, but after listening to the F1 Podcasts I can't believe how much Brundle and Herbert blow their own trumpets. The number of times they each referred to themselves as the next big thing.



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#60 danmills

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 15:16

The thought of Senna in that 96 Ferrari has always amused me, it would make the moans of 92/93 seem like nothing.  :lol:

 

Thinking about the whole what-if and Ferrari / Senna thing I doubt he would have gone given what happened to Prost and his experience / treatment merely years before. He would have retired on a high at Williams fighting Schumacher back to back in 94/95; switched to Indy (Emmo would have influenced this) or even less likely gone back to McLaren to partner Hakkinen with his tail between his legs. I think Schumacher was always the main target for Ferrari regardless if he won 94/95, and Senna would not have wanted a racey partner. So it would not have materialised.

 

The only major change to happen in this chain of events would be that Coulthard would never have likely made it to F1 at Williams until 96; aside maybe Brundle retiring sooner and going for his slot at Jordan. Lots of what-ifs but I find it insane to see how or why Senna would have ended up at Ferrari.



#61 CSF

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 16:27

Thinking about the whole what-if and Ferrari / Senna thing I doubt he would have gone given what happened to Prost and his experience / treatment merely years before. He would have retired on a high at Williams fighting Schumacher back to back in 94/95; switched to Indy (Emmo would have influenced this) or even less likely gone back to McLaren to partner Hakkinen with his tail between his legs. I think Schumacher was always the main target for Ferrari regardless if he won 94/95, and Senna would not have wanted a racey partner. So it would not have materialised.

 

The only major change to happen in this chain of events would be that Coulthard would never have likely made it to F1 at Williams until 96; aside maybe Brundle retiring sooner and going for his slot at Jordan. Lots of what-ifs but I find it insane to see how or why Senna would have ended up at Ferrari.

 

 

I've often found it strange too, and feel if it had happened it was doomed to failure. Not least because it falls totally against what we know about Senna, who chased the quickest cars... 



#62 7MGTEsup

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 16:49

I've often found it strange too, and feel if it had happened it was doomed to failure. Not least because it falls totally against what we know about Senna, who chased the quickest cars... 

 

I'm sure I read somewhere (I have no source and it will have been over 20 years ago now) that Senna wanted to drive the red car at some point in his career.



#63 danmills

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 23:19

Interesting! It’s the first I’ve ever heard of it too. Maybe because of his loyalty and professionalism to the teams of the time are why there is next to no evidence to back the claims of his interest after all these years. Or that there was intact no such interest. We will never know!

#64 BRG

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 17:51

I'm sure I read somewhere (I have no source and it will have been over 20 years ago now) that Senna wanted to drive the red car at some point in his career.

Take it with a grain of salt.  It was the standard Racing Driver PR statement in those days: "I always hoped to drive for Ferrari one day"



#65 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 17:29

I just put on the 1990 German Grand Prix highlights. Funnily enough, when talking about the repurcussions of Mansell’s retirement, the rumour mill at the time was having Senna re-sign for McLaren for a single year before joining Ferrari in 1992.

The Senna to Ferrari stories may have only just been rumours, but they were certainly contemporary and not just invented after his death.

#66 Boing 2

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:11

Autosport 26 Aug 1993

 

 

G08hGja.jpg

 

 

Autosport 2 Dec 1993

 

 

nr3dTxz.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#67 Regazzoni

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:23

That quote marked in red tallies with what Fiorio claims.

 

Now you have to find who says categorically he had signed a contract to race for Ferrari in 1996 before joining Williams.



#68 Regazzoni

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 15:01

With work in the way - LOL - I obviously didn't read properly that interview.

 

That is December 1993 and it seems to dismiss any claim he might have signed for the red cars at that point. That is it, then.



#69 Eff One 2002

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 07:55

Seeing a now 58 year old Ayrton Senna giving no-doubt controversial opinions on today's F1 in the paddock would indeed be interesting to see. I would have thought he'd detest those Halos. I know he was all for safety, but I reckon he'd think this measure was simply going too far.



#70 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 09:22

Seeing a now 58 year old Ayrton Senna giving no-doubt controversial opinions on today's F1 in the paddock would indeed be interesting to see. I would have thought he'd detest those Halos. I know he was all for safety, but I reckon he'd think this measure was simply going too far.


Unfortunately you’d not be able to tell him that it may have saved his life.

#71 FordFiesta

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 11:36

[...] I think Schumacher was always the main target for Ferrari regardless if he won 94/95, and Senna would not have wanted a racey partner.


1) He was more like third choice. There was more than a lose contact for Senna with Di Montezemolo during 1994. Then, for 1996, it was seriously discussed to team up Prost with Berger. Then, third choice, Schumi was engaged for 1996.

2) So, he didn't want a racey partner and went to McLaren which was Prost's home since four years at that time. That makes sense. And then he intended to be teamed up with Prost again for 1993, by the way. I don't know who had his tail between his legs...

Then you mentioned something like going with tail between his legs back to McLaren/Häkkinen? So, Häkkinen was not someone racey? I mean he is a tad overrated but not racey?

#72 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 12:07

2) So, he didn't want a racey partner and went to McLaren which was Prost's home since four years at that time. That makes sense. And then he intended to be teamed up with Prost again for 1993, by the way. I don't know who had his tail between his legs...


In reply to 2: He knew that Lotus was a dead end option and wouldn't be able to supply him what he wanted and needed to become champion. He had to move up and McLaren was one of the few options. Now it helped that he was one of the three `Honda sons` who had Honda following him wherever he would go as long as it was an option for them as well. There had never been any fear for Prost, in fact the opposite: the zeal to beat who was believed to be the best man if F1 and become the proven best man in F1.
So he had more to gain with going to Mclaren and face a contender like Prost that to stay with Lotus with Honda's third man or first lapdog. (As Piquet proved) besides that, upsetting the then current #1 of a team and take the team over was nothing new for Senna as Elio de Angelis found out already.

Within teams of lesser capacity, like Toleman and/or Lotus Senna preferred lap dog team mates to have the majority of the team focussing on him and not being diverted by a number 2 who could steal attention and good results away from him (Warwick at Lotus ....) Accepting a top condender as a team mate however was only done if he knew that he would have a major upgrade in hardware, i.e. a new strongest team to join.

#73 sopa

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 12:23

1) He was more like third choice. There was more than a lose contact for Senna with Di Montezemolo during 1994. Then, for 1996, it was seriously discussed to team up Prost with Berger. Then, third choice, Schumi was engaged for 1996.
 

 

I very much doubt Ferrari was going to take a 40+ year old Prost over Schumacher.

 

From what I have read about 1996 silly season, it was pretty much circulating around Schumacher during 1995. New Marlboro-McLaren-Mercedes package wanted to get him too. But in the end Ferrari made the best offer to him.


Edited by sopa, 22 January 2019 - 12:24.


#74 FordFiesta

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 16:44

In reply to 2: He knew that Lotus was a dead end option and wouldn't be able to supply him what he wanted and needed to become champion. He had to move up and McLaren was one of the few options. Now it helped that he was one of the three `Honda sons` who had Honda following him wherever he would go as long as it was an option for them as well. There had never been any fear for Prost, in fact the opposite: the zeal to beat who was believed to be the best man if F1 and become the proven best man in F1.
So he had more to gain with going to Mclaren and face a contender like Prost that to stay with Lotus with Honda's third man or first lapdog. (As Piquet proved) besides that, upsetting the then current #1 of a team and take the team over was nothing new for Senna as Elio de Angelis found out already.

Within teams of lesser capacity, like Toleman and/or Lotus Senna preferred lap dog team mates to have the majority of the team focussing on him and not being diverted by a number 2 who could steal attention and good results away from him (Warwick at Lotus ....) Accepting a top condender as a team mate however was only done if he knew that he would have a major upgrade in hardware, i.e. a new strongest team to join.


Probably, he wouldn't have felt the need to change teams, when, because of much weaker competition (imagine Alboreto, Boutsen, Patrese, Johansson instead of Prost, Mansell, Piquet behind the Williams and McLaren steering wheels in 1986, 1987), he would've also won the championships in the third best cars in 1986 and 1987 like Schumi did in 1995 (with only Dhill, Coulthard, Berger, Alesi in the better cars).

Whatever: the team was cr***y (as the newly crowned triple champion proved in 1988... weirdly enough that same driver, however, had his second spring at another newcomer (Benetton) team (3rd in driver championship). So, even in 1990 it was kinda forseeable which team would be successful.

Back to Senna/Lotus: so he was afraid of Warwick and goes to Prost who destroyed drivers who were partly miles better than Warwick...

#75 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 18:22

Back to Senna/Lotus: so he was afraid of Warwick and goes to Prost who destroyed drivers who were partly miles better than Warwick...

 

To some extend: Yes: Senna was afraid of Warwick at Lotus.

 

Explained in detail:

Senna was convinced that Lotus wasn't capable of fielding two equal, fully supported cars and was a team of a clear #1 and a clear #2  driver. During '85 he had shot Elio De Angelis out of the #1 seat and had become the new darling of the team (particulary because of Peter Warr completely mesmerized by Senna) De Angelis left, knowing that he was no longer in a position to please anyone at Lotus enough anymore to stand a chance against Senna.

But......

 

Lotus was a `British till the bitter end` team, with a `British to the bitter` end sponsor: JPS.

If true or not but I have read the suggestion that Senna wanted his Brazilian buddy Mauricio Gugelmin as new team mate but sponsor JPS refused to accept two brazilians in their sponsored F1 Bastion of Britishness...  Anyway, no matter if the Gugelmin dream of Senna was true or not, with De Angelis gone, JPS wanted a British driver in the second car. And by chance, thanks to Renault quitting, one of the top British drivers was on the market: Derek Warwick!

Senna, just having secured all important (to him) absolute #1 status within Team Lotus instantly feared for his chances should one of the best British drivers being his team mate, fearing it would take away som of the support and attention he wanted to have going to his British team mate, costing him whatever one way or another. Thus he blocked the arrival of Warwick and as a compromise Johnny Dumfries, (other than being British no serious challenger in whatever capacity for Senna) was hired as the British driver sponsor JPS felt OK with. But if Johnny's career benefitted in any manner because of that year with Lotus....

 

So: yes: Senna was afraid of Warwick at Lotus

But not for Warwick himself but for the focus on him (Senna) that would be lost and go to Delboy in the Lotus Bastion of Britishness at his expence.....

 

As already said: If Senna had something to gain that he needed, he was willing to take on everyone within the same team. Promotion to a better ranked team or a team with better cars being his main motivation for such what appears in your posts to be seen as bravery.

Look and see....

- Toleman to Lotus, at the expense of De Angelis

- Lotus to McLaren, at the expense of Prost

- McLaren to Williams, at the expense of Prost another time.


Edited by Henri Greuter, 22 January 2019 - 18:22.


#76 FordFiesta

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 18:44

Yes I know, they (Lotus) were hard-core British and getting not full attention only because Warwick was also British wouldn't have been appropriate.

Apart from that: didn't have Dumfries, his eventual teammate, a record F3 season (1984) after Senna in 1983? So, was it necessarily that clear that Dumfries would suck that much?

#77 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 19:04

Yes I know, they (Lotus) were hard-core British and getting not full attention only because Warwick was also British wouldn't have been appropriate.

Apart from that: didn't have Dumfries, his eventual teammate, a record F3 season (1984) after Senna in 1983? So, was it necessarily that clear that Dumfries would suck that much?

 

 

Din't forget that early '85 when the season started there were a number of people who rated Warwick higher than Mansell. But what happened in that final part of '85 when all of a sudden Mansell became good while Warwick went down with Renault. But still late '85 he was still rated as equal if not better in the long term than Mansell.

 

I don't know anything about `The Earl` before he got into the Lotus but obviously, Senna regarded him as much less of a thread than the by now experienced in F1 Warwick....

And Warwick was a hero with the British so for Senna the mere thought of Warwick with Lotus was nothing else but troubles for him.



#78 garoidb

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 19:48

Yes I know, they (Lotus) were hard-core British and getting not full attention only because Warwick was also British wouldn't have been appropriate.

Apart from that: didn't have Dumfries, his eventual teammate, a record F3 season (1984) after Senna in 1983? So, was it necessarily that clear that Dumfries would suck that much?

 

If I remember correctly, he was a Ferrari F1 test driver in 1985. Perhaps he did have some potential. Did the season with Senna just Vandoorne him? 



#79 FordFiesta

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 19:56

Probably something like that.

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#80 Eff One 2002

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 20:28

Unfortunately you’d not be able to tell him that it may have saved his life.

 

We all know you are very much a fan of safety at all costs as well as the Halo, PAYR. At first I was tempted to say "Oh, I highly doubt that" but, given what a freak accident Senna's was, just how unlucky he was the way the suspension component pierced his helmet and that the halo would only ever save a life in such a freak, unlikely accident, you may well be right.....



#81 BRG

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 20:49

If I remember correctly, he was a Ferrari F1 test driver in 1985. Perhaps he did have some potential. Did the season with Senna just Vandoorne him? 

The Marquis of Bute was a British F3 champion and won races in Euro F3 as well.  Although Johnny Dumfries didn't do well at Lotus, John Crichton-Stuart was Benneton's test driver the following year so they must have thought he was OK.  The Earl of Dumfries went into sports car racing with Jaguar, and of course John Bute won Le Mans outright, so he cannot have been too bad.  Unfortunately, the #2 seat at Lotus was rarely a place where drivers prospered, how ever many names they had.



#82 FordFiesta

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 20:58

Who was the number two driver in the Mansell/de Angelis era I wonder...

Senna already had a no.1 contract in 1985 where de Angelis looked all of a sudden like very slow?

He was, not only slow in qualifying where Senna was multiple times on pole position and de Angelis at the bottom of the top 10 starting grid but also slow all of a sudden in the races where Senna was mostly miles ahead of de Angelis at the end of the races or mostly miles ahead of de Angelis while dnf-ing because of mechanical problems.

#83 Eff One 2002

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 06:01

Who was the number two driver in the Mansell/de Angelis era I wonder...

 

I'm pretty sure Mansell was always supposed to be number 2 to Elio.



#84 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 08:02

Who was the number two driver in the Mansell/de Angelis era I wonder...

Senna already had a no.1 contract in 1985 where de Angelis looked all of a sudden like very slow?

He was, not only slow in qualifying where Senna was multiple times on pole position and de Angelis at the bottom of the top 10 starting grid but also slow all of a sudden in the races where Senna was mostly miles ahead of de Angelis at the end of the races or mostly miles ahead of de Angelis while dnf-ing because of mechanical problems.



I recall something about being given equal status to de Angelis who was highly rated within Lotus at that time, higher than Mansell. mansell had been something of a preference of Colin Chapman who somehow was retained even after Colin died. But Peter Warr, the new Lotus Honcho was never a fan of Nigel and preferred Elio. That was till Senna came along and he was entirely absolutely mesmerized by Senna, up to the extend that he defended everything Senna did in what was the period of time in which Senna made his mark, showed his first signs of questionable track behaviour etc. Had FIA acted at that time already instead of doing nothing, who knows how F1 post-85 might have been then....
BTW, it were these early successes of Senna that effectively cost Elio de Angelis Lotus which up till then he pretty much `owned`. But Elio simply was too much of a gentleman compared with Senna's ruthless approach to succeed at all costs, whatever it took. First step being getting the unconditional support of the team and undisputed #1 status. That, as well as the fact that he wasn't in the same league as Senna made him loose his position with Lotus and wanting to leave the team he had been happy with for quite some time.

#85 as65p

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:58

... But Peter Warr, the new Lotus Honcho was never a fan of Nigel and preferred Elio. That was till Senna came along and he was entirely absolutely mesmerized by Senna....

 

It would be quite hard not to be mesmerized by a guy coming new to your team and delivering pole and a dominant win in his 2nd race after a 3-year winless streak of your team, outperfoming your former supposed no.1 driver by some margin on the way.

 

BTW, it were these early successes of Senna that effectively cost Elio de Angelis Lotus which up till then he pretty much `owned`. But Elio simply was too much of a gentleman compared with Senna's ruthless approach to succeed at all costs, whatever it took. First step being getting the unconditional support of the team and undisputed #1 status. That, as well as the fact that he wasn't in the same league as Senna made him loose his position with Lotus and wanting to leave the team he had been happy with for quite some time.

 

The bolded wasn't some kind of secondary factor but the overwhelming main cause for Senna becoming no.1. He simply performed better on track 90 percent of the time, and everything else naturally and logically followed from there. Nothing to do with de Angelis being disadvantaged by his "gentlemanliness". About which someone like DSJ might have 2nd thoughts anyway.

 

Nigel Roebuck:

Whenever I’m asked to tell ‘a Jenks story’, it’s difficult to know where to start, but more than once I have related the saga of Hockenheim in 1983, where, during practice, he got into an altercation with Elio de Angelis, who was extremely angry about something he had written about him.

Jenks was never one to worry too much about what racing drivers said, and his lack of interest in de Angelis’s ranting merely served to increase the driver’s ire. Finally Elio lost his rag completely, and shoved Jenks, who ended up on the floor of the pit, unhurt – but also deeply unimpressed.


Edited by as65p, 24 January 2019 - 12:00.


#86 garoidb

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 19:09

I recall something about being given equal status to de Angelis who was highly rated within Lotus at that time, higher than Mansell. mansell had been something of a preference of Colin Chapman who somehow was retained even after Colin died. But Peter Warr, the new Lotus Honcho was never a fan of Nigel and preferred Elio. That was till Senna came along and he was entirely absolutely mesmerized by Senna, up to the extend that he defended everything Senna did in what was the period of time in which Senna made his mark, showed his first signs of questionable track behaviour etc. Had FIA acted at that time already instead of doing nothing, who knows how F1 post-85 might have been then....

 

It would be interesting to know whether Colin Chapman really saw what Nigel Mansell was capable of becoming. It is not a small thing to say he was something of a preference of Colin Chapman.

 

After Chapman's death, I assume that Nigel Mansell was already signed for 1983. For 1984, I read somewhere (probably here) that JPS, as sponsors, wanted a British driver and that John Watson was even considered after he lost his McLaren seat. He apparently declined out of sensitivity to Barbro Peterson. The JPS requirement could explain why Nigel was retained, but without enthusiasm. This requirement also seems to have been a factor in signing Derek Warwick, and also Johnny Dumfries.

 

Edit: I see, Henri, that you have already covered some of this in the current thread.


Edited by garoidb, 24 January 2019 - 19:13.


#87 Henri Greuter

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 07:07

It would be interesting to know whether Colin Chapman really saw what Nigel Mansell was capable of becoming. It is not a small thing to say he was something of a preference of Colin Chapman.
 
After Chapman's death, I assume that Nigel Mansell was already signed for 1983. For 1984, I read somewhere (probably here) that JPS, as sponsors, wanted a British driver and that John Watson was even considered after he lost his McLaren seat. He apparently declined out of sensitivity to Barbro Peterson. The JPS requirement could explain why Nigel was retained, but without enthusiasm. This requirement also seems to have been a factor in signing Derek Warwick, and also Johnny Dumfries.
 
Edit: I see, Henri, that you have already covered some of this in the current thread.


The suggestion of hiring Watson was new to me. His reasons to decline are valid and honourable, confirming the gentleman he then was, and likely still is today.

#88 HP

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 07:20

Unfortunately you’d not be able to tell him that it may have saved his life.

More likely HANS would have saved his life. Can't see how the steering column would have held back by the HALO.



#89 Henri Greuter

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 07:50

More likely HANS would have saved his life. Can't see how the steering column would have held back by the HALO.



It was a suspension part that inflicted what was acknowledged to be the fatal injury. A HALO might have bounced it off upwards...
But also downwards....

#90 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:01

More likely HANS would have saved his life. Can't see how the steering column would have held back by the HALO.

 

It wasn't the steering column that killed him. It was the suspension striking his helmet. The halo would likely have stopped it.



#91 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:18

I can't help it but the more I got to see of Schumacher after 1994 (between '94 and '97 in particular) , and having seen what Senna had been capable of until ......

Don't get me wrong, I didn't want to see this battle you dream off being prevented in the manner it happened with one of them being killed.
But certainly with hindsight, still, I can't help feeling that I don't feel being robbed of this battle and I am a kind of happy we didn't got to see it.

Both Senna and MS were so utterly ruthless and not capable to accept defeat, even if defeat was honorable because of being betaen by a driver in a (much) better car....
I have the feeling that a battle between those two drivers would have been ugly and eventually have gone out of control and would have made the Senna-Prost war comparable with a picknick. And what kind of damage of whatever kind that would have resulted into???
I don't know and in all honesty, I really don't want to know what should eventualy have happened.
There are things within racing people wonder about what happened but there are things of which I feel it's better that we don't know after all.
At least for me: This matter is one of those....


What are you talking about!? The worst thing about Senna - Schumacher battle did happen.

Nothing worse could happen if the battle continued throughout entire 1994 season

#92 BuddyHolly

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:28

It wasn't the steering column that killed him. It was the suspension striking his helmet. The halo would likely have stopped it.

 

I think 'possibly' rather than 'likely'.

 

Sadly we'll never know either way



#93 Henri Greuter

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:30

What are you talking about!? The worst thing about Senna - Schumacher battle did happen.

Nothing worse could happen if the battle continued throughout entire 1994 season


The worst thing that could happen in my point of view was that either driver, or both in their zeal to beat the other got involved in an accident in which another driver (than either of these two) got involved and him being injured or killed.

#94 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:34

Senna was revered in Brazil. I suspect he would have moved on to a political career there rather than faffing about in an F1 paddock post-retirement.


Senna didnt have mentality of politician

If he dud have, he would have find his way into Williams in 1993 if not 1992

But he couldnt because he lacked political skills.

Prost had political mentality

I beleive that Senna couldnt even run his private team. Let alone be president of Brasil. As some suggested

Ayrton Senna was only ever good in only one thing. Driving race car. And perhaps he was the best in the world doing that.

Other than driving he didnt stand out at anything.

He couldnt even held a proper press conference without speaking about unfairness like some child. Thats far from being a politician.

And that interview with Jackie Stewart after 1990 Suzuka was completely misplaced.

He would be eaten alive in the world of politics. He just did not have a talent for politics.

And he despised it afterall

#95 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:44

The worst thing that could happen in my point of view was that either driver, or both in their zeal to beat the other got involved in an accident in which another driver (than either of these two) got involved and him being injured or killed.


You are exaggerating.

Last driver remotely responsible for another driver's death was Jim Clark.

#96 as65p

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:53

And that interview with Jackie Stewart after 1990 Suzuka was completely misplaced.

 

Well, as the saying goes, never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. And as JYS confirmed in this interview, he's "very" experienced.



#97 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 13:01

Well, as the saying goes, never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. And as JYS confirmed in this interview, he's "very" experienced.


Well, we are talking about proverbial "ceritified halfwit" afterall

#98 E.B.

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 13:04

Last driver remotely responsible for another driver's death was Jim Clark.


Remind me (von Trips is a very wrong answer indeed by the way).

Suzuka interview was 1991.

#99 as65p

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 13:15

Remind me (von Trips is a very wrong answer indeed by the way).

Suzuka interview was 1991.

 

JYS interview was in Adelaide 1990, Suzuka PC rant in 1991. The talk in last posts was about the former.



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#100 Henri Greuter

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 13:16

You are exaggerating.

Last driver remotely responsible for another driver's death was Jim Clark.


Exaggerating?

We have seen several freak accidents happening over the years that were believed to be not possible until they did happen and proved that anything was and is possible on a race track.

Piquet and Berger can talk about the Tamburello crash they survived, if not for that freak suspension part, Senna might have been able to join them. But there was that freak suspension part.

Senna already had a reputation of being utterly defensive in blocking ( think Estoril '87 & 89 with Mansell) as well as being overly agressive in attacking in order to improve position (think '90 on Hungaroring at Nannini). I can't recall anything of that by MS between Spa '91 ad Imola '94 yet out of the top of my head but good chance there were such moments of him by then already. In later years he certainly showed he was capable of them.
I am not gonna say that the scenario I wrote down was to happen one way or another. But dismissing it as over the top and exaggerating? With these two selfish and ruthless drivers in equal equipment against another? Anything could happen as far as I can see. And if anything was between them alone that is kind of OK I suppose. But should an innocent third party becoming involved because of being at the wrong place at the wrong time and pay whatever price for it, that would be unacceptable for me.
Again, I don't say it would have happened. But dismissing the chances like you do, I can't and I didn't at the time. I've had seen enough of Senna alone at that time to know that nothing was too low for him to prevent defeat at all costs if he had a hand in it. And in this case, one driver with such an attitude was/is enough for a recipe that could lead to whatever disaster we believe(d) to be impossible.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 25 January 2019 - 13:20.