596 replies to this topic

[Amz964]

Correct decision in light of everything happening over there. When people have died and loosing thier homes and everything a sporting event should not take any priority. Shame we didn't get the season finale but definitely the right call.

[Jvr]

Motorsport.it reports it as a fact that Citroen will leave from WRC and will not run in 2020. Also Ogier to Toyota as a fact.
 

https://it.motorspor...toyota/4596589/

[Ruusperi]

FIA should allow 4th or 5th cars for Hyundai, Toyota and M-Sport then. Otherwise there will be no seats left for many drivers and from the fans' point of view it feels like Formula 1 at Indy 2005.

Edited by Ruusperi, 14 November 2019 - 14:08.

[Lennat]

Maybe customer cars, like year old ones or something?

[Jvr]

Don't think there is enough time to arrange for customer car teams for the start of 2020.

 

A shame really, the new regulation formula has provided really good rallying with high performance cars.

 

If Citroen really withdraws immediately as a manufacturer, could be a death blow to the series as known right now.

[Myrvold]

FIA should allow 4th or 5th cars for Hyundai, Toyota and M-Sport then. Otherwise there will be no seats left for many drivers and from the fans' point of view it feels like Formula 1 at Indy 2005.

It is already allowed - of course 4th and 5th cars doesn't run for manufacturer points, but that wouldn't change much anyway.
M-Sport only has 3 cars when someone pays for the 3rd one, no way they find drivers with enough monitos to run 4 or 5 cars.
Oh, and it already kidna feels like Indy GP 05 when you are in the forest with regards to WRC cars.
 
 

Maybe customer cars, like year old ones or something?

No one got the money to buy and run it on the world stage. There is a reason why there are so few of them in private hands in national rallies as well.

I mean, the car that Tuohino bought and used in Sweden have been used twice since. Bertelli has used his twice. Märtin and Bouffier have rented one car for one rally each, and the newest M-Sport chassis have been sold to Italy. The only privateer/customer car that has been used a lot are the the old Østberg-Fiesta, that he used a lot, then sold it to Tänak/Gross and Gross have used it in Estionia this year.

Hyundai seems to have built a stupid amount of cars, but none have ever been run by anyone outside Hyundai Motorsport. Neither have the Citroëns (Which also are open for customers if people pay). Toyota seems to be rather uninterested in customers.

 

The biggest issue is that there are no rally cars that are anywhere similar to WRC cars, there is zero point in renting a car for a rally or two, you won't be able to show anything (e.g Tidemand), you need a proper test-programme and know that you have some rallies to find out of the "weird" cars. There's very very few that has the money for that. There is just no viable way from privateers/customers to be a part of WRC with these cars sadly. It way too expensive.

[Silberpfeil]

So we have how many drivers lining up for that second M-Sport seat now? Potential candidates (going purely by availability, not necessarily interest or viability): Paddon, Breen, Mikkelsen, Latvala, Meeke, Lappi (shame for him, really), Ostberg, Tidemand. You have to feel for Meeke as well in this scenario. He was mostly sensible all year, but seemed to fall into his worst habits at the least ideal times. Maybe Tommi will keep him and/or Latvala around as a test driver. He will need a new guy again in 2021, after all… (Apologies for the lack of formatting.)

Edited by Silberpfeil, 14 November 2019 - 17:23.

[ARTGP]

Motorsport.it reports it as a fact that Citroen will leave from WRC and will not run in 2020. Also Ogier to Toyota as a fact.
 

https://it.motorspor...toyota/4596589/

 

 

The timing of Citroen's pull out of WRC, and the announcement of hypercar at LeMans with sister company (Peugeot) are surely not coincidental. 

[noikeee]

If Citroen really withdraws immediately as a manufacturer, could be a death blow to the series as known right now.

A bit dramatic? It's not great news, but we'd still have 3 manufacturers.

[ARTGP]

A bit dramatic? It's not great news, but we'd still have 3 manufacturers.

 

Ford's involvement in the series is tenuous at best.  And with Hyundai monopolizing the talent pool (Neuville, Tanak) and Ogier retiring next year, it leaves the other manufacturers with little hope of success.

[Silberpfeil]

The timing of Citroen's pull out of WRC, and the announcement of hypercar at LeMans with sister company (Peugeot) are surely not coincidental. 

 

No chance in hell it isn’t. I’d like to see Ogier try his hand at Le Mans, but I doubt he’ll return to PSA a second time.

[Jvr]

A bit dramatic? It's not great news, but we'd still have 3 manufacturers.

First ten positions gain points for WRC drivers' championship and if we have three manufacturers, well, not enough cars to compete at the top class even for all the points.

 

Manufacturers' championship? Lol. Eventhough, it is true Citroen was not doing much to achieve this in 2019 but at least they were taking points away from others.

 

Dramatic? Your call.

[messy]

A potential disaster for the WRC and I honestly don’t think I’m being dramatic. 
 

The way all the dominoes have fallen (starting with Tanak leaving Toyota) is pretty damaging. 
 

it means Hyundai absolutely monopolize the best drivers, it means Ogier has taken the chance to ditch Citroen prompting them to pull out....it’s been a great three year run since 2017 but I’m not liking the way this is going at all.

[ARTGP]

A potential disaster for the WRC and I honestly don’t think I’m being dramatic. 
 

The way all the dominoes have fallen (starting with Tanak leaving Toyota) is pretty damaging. 
 

it means Hyundai absolutely monopolize the best drivers, it means Ogier has taken the chance to ditch Citroen prompting them to pull out....it’s been a great three year run since 2017 but I’m not liking the way this is going at all.

 

 

100% correct.  Tanak to Hyundai is 100% a crime against the sport. An anti-competitive move. We had an almost perfect harmony amongst the manufacturers (lacking a strong driver in the Ford camp).  And now we are headed towards a Hyundai monopoly.

 

Ford and Citroen/Toyota (whoever Ogier doesn't drive for), are not going to win next season without an implosion by Neuville, Tanak, and Ogier.

Edited by ARTGP, 14 November 2019 - 18:50.

[Muppetmad]

From 2021 onwards perhaps. For next year, I'd honestly not be surprised to see Ogier taking it in the Toyota.

 

Overall, though, this is certainly bad news for the sport. Citroen were never going to hang around forever, but to see them leave so abruptly and after a year like this would be very sad indeed.

Edited by Muppetmad, 14 November 2019 - 18:49.

[Jvr]

For the 2021 regulation, if FIA again messes the hybrid formula at the beginning, as they did with F1 to introduce one manufacturer hegemony, there will be even less competition.

 

I guess, that will be green since nobody will be running since developing the new hybrid formula would be too expensive.

Edited by Jvr, 14 November 2019 - 19:06.

[ARTGP]

I do think Subaru will make a come back however....Possibly with the Solberg kid.

 

Their seems to be a rumour that Toyota and Subaru will work on a next generation compact car like the Yaris to help Subaru regain market share in compact segment in Europe. And that Subaru might end up in WRC again with this car (which fits their AWD brand image).

Edited by ARTGP, 14 November 2019 - 19:09.

[ArnageWRC]

A potential disaster for the WRC and I honestly don’t think I’m being dramatic. 
 

The way all the dominoes have fallen (starting with Tanak leaving Toyota) is pretty damaging. 
 

it means Hyundai absolutely monopolize the best drivers, it means Ogier has taken the chance to ditch Citroen prompting them to pull out....it’s been a great three year run since 2017 but I’m not liking the way this is going at all.

 

I'm not sure it is dramatic. To be honest - since 2017 we've seen great action - and close championship fights; it was all built on unstable foundations. Super expensive cars that very few Privateers could afford. In fact, it was only Toyota & Hyundai who threw the kitchen sink at it. Citroen were seemingly on a less than previous budget, and M-Sport as ever, on a shoestring budget.

 

Citroen have a 'get out of jail' card with Peugeot signing up to the WEC; although that is putting 2+2 together. And then we're likely left with Toyota v Hyundai, with M-Sport in a supporting role......

[Silberpfeil]

From 2021 onwards perhaps. For next year, I'd honestly not be surprised to see Ogier taking it in the Toyota.

 

Overall, though, this is certainly bad news for the sport. Citroen were never going to hang around forever, but to see them leave so abruptly and after a year like this would be very sad indeed.

 

It’s fascinating to see that Citroën never managed to tame the inherently flawed C3. I remember reading somewhere that Ogier relied quite heavily on Tänak’s development of the car at M-Sport in 2017, but I can’t for the life of me recall whether that was an accurate assessment. Even so, 2020 could still be interesting, at least at the very top. As for the rest… phew. Two part-timers, a rookie, an inconsistent young gun and a good, but not great driver, plus whoever gets the second M-Sport seat. I wonder whether we might get another ride share there.

[Jvr]

One aspect that might still influence the situation is how FCA & PSA merger will pan out. However, that might be more important in 2021 and beyond rather than next year's racing plans of Citroen.

Edited by Jvr, 14 November 2019 - 19:18.

[sopa]

There were times, when WRC had only 2 manufacturers (2009-2010, 2012), so WRC has seen worse times and it's not the end of the world as of yet. However, what is true is that WRC is highly dependent on manufacturers compared to other series. Something like F1 could still run on independent garagiste teams if works teams pulled out. WRC? Not so much, at this time. They need to find a way, how private teams can enter and start running competitively. Before 2019 World Rallycross was nearly dead, because all 3 manufacturers pulled out, but the series has still survived on the back of privateer entries and a close championship season.

[BRG]

Scrap the WRCar category.  Run the WRC for R5 cars of which there are probably hundreds around, then official and private teams can compete as they did in the days when the FIA wasn't so obsessed with pandering to the manufacturers' interests. 

 

The WR Car category was tied to manufacturers only and was destined to suffer just this sort of setback.  Put not your trust in manufacturers - it has been proven time and time again in every branch of motor sport.

[Jvr]

Scrap the WRCar category.  Run the WRC for R5 cars of which there are probably hundreds around, then official and private teams can compete as they did in the days when the FIA wasn't so obsessed with pandering to the manufacturers' interests. 

 

The WR Car category was tied to manufacturers only and was destined to suffer just this sort of setback.  Put not your trust in manufacturers - it has been proven time and time again in every branch of motor sport.

Sounds good but with the planned hybrid PU if extended to lower categories, R5's going to die away.

No privateers can afford those.

[BRG]

Sounds good but with the planned hybrid PU if extended to lower categories, R5's going to die away.

No privateers can afford those.

Yes, but if the manufacturers were put back into their boxes, the hybrid business could be scrapped too. 

 

Rallying is extremely healthy below WRC level, and that will continue even if it means that we all run older cars.  The FIA might manage to kill off the WRC but the clubmen rallyists will still be turning out to do battle over the country roads and tracks of the world.

[noikeee]

The reason I'm not that worried is we've had it worse in the recent past and the sport survived. At one stage there were only two manufacturers Citroen and Ford. Worse, this came when there was only one top driver really and a huge lack of talent all around (although Ogier was emerging).

 

Now don't get me wrong I sure as hell don't want to go back to that, that was a all-time low. And it's sad to see the current status which was great go off balance. But if the WRC didn't die then, it's not going to die now.

 

As for 2020 we have an exciting Tanak v Ogier again (provided Ogier goes to Toyota), plus maybe even a fascinating intra-team battle between Tanak and Neuville (I'm backing Tanak to win that, like everyone else, but you'd never know). Come 2021 it could be domination by the winner of Tanak v Neuville, whomever becomes the settled team leader.... or we could be starting to see the emergence of Rovanpera Jr in the Toyota too as a contender.

[guiporsche]

So, on the wake of the Peugeot announcement David Evans publishes an article saying that Citroën's WRC program is under review by the board and that as a result Citroën might leave immediately. Might being the key word here. One unnamed source is the sole basis of the whole claim.

Then the possibility of Citroën's leaving is taken 100% for granted by the Italian Motorsport.com website and declared 'Official'/'Ufficiale'. Last time I checked 'Official' means that an actual confirmation by the factory has been made. All of this is taking place, of course, in the same day that Pierre Budar gives an interview to L'Equipe saying that Citroën will continue on WRC for the next season.

 

Maybe Citroën will indeed leave, but as journalism goes, this is dire and telling of how news are written these days.

[sopa]

 

As for 2020 we have an exciting Tanak v Ogier again (provided Ogier goes to Toyota), plus maybe even a fascinating intra-team battle between Tanak and Neuville (I'm backing Tanak to win that, like everyone else, but you'd never know). Come 2021 it could be domination by the winner of Tanak v Neuville, whomever becomes the settled team leader.... or we could be starting to see the emergence of Rovanpera Jr in the Toyota too as a contender.

 

Maybe Neuville will leave Hyundai to become Toyota's #1 in 2021, if he gets beaten by Tanak next year? Surely it would be challenging to keep this pairing together for a long time.

[messy]

Scrap the WRCar category.  Run the WRC for R5 cars of which there are probably hundreds around, then official and private teams can compete as they did in the days when the FIA wasn't so obsessed with pandering to the manufacturers' interests. 

 

The WR Car category was tied to manufacturers only and was destined to suffer just this sort of setback.  Put not your trust in manufacturers - it has been proven time and time again in every branch of motor sport.

for me the new for 2017 rules and next gen WRC cars were the best thing that happened to the series since....ages. 
 

Getting rid of them and going to R5, you’re essentially just reverting to the pre-2017 thing aren’t you? These cars are so much more exciting to watch. 
 

The problem is Tanak’s decision to go to Hyundai. The problem is Hyundai wanting to stockpile drivers and collect all the good ones like they’re Pokémon. You have three outstanding drivers in this era - Tanak, Neuville and Ogier. Since last year, the three of them have each been spearheading three different teams, and that’s made for something really special. Now, the baffling decision for two of them to join forces and the other one’s retiring. It goes from perfectly balanced to complete mess in one fell swoop. First consequence? Out goes one of the teams. Good start.

Edited by messy, 14 November 2019 - 21:33.

[Myrvold]

There were times, when WRC had only 2 manufacturers (2009-2010, 2012), so WRC has seen worse times and it's not the end of the world as of yet.

The reason I'm not that worried is we've had it worse in the recent past and the sport survived. At one stage there were only two manufacturers Citroen and Ford. Worse, this came when there was only one top driver really and a huge lack of talent all around (although Ogier was emerging).

 

The difference though, is that then we had privateers. Yes, it's slightly boring standing in the forest and looking at the same shape car with a different shade of white go by. At least we had 13-14 WRC cars on most events in 09 and 10, while in 2012, helped a bit by there being a 3rd car to buy, there was often a tiny bit more cars as well.

 

Now we'll have 8-9 WRC cars starting. That's sad. I know we had times in the 90's as well and of course late 80's with very few factory cars, but there was usually a lot of local cars in the top class. We won't have that now, and with the WRC2-WRC3 split, it won't be better there either... I actually struggle to see how they'll get back to heights again, and that is regardless of what Citroën does!

[Jvr]

So the latest silly season prediction is Ogier, Evans, and Rovanperä full time to Toyota.

Still can't see Evans as an upgrade to Meeke or Latvala. If Citroen really leaves even getting Lappi back would be a better bet.

[messy]

If that happens Ford should jump at Latvala and Mikkelsen surely?

[BRG]

for me the new for 2017 rules and next gen WRC cars were the best thing that happened to the series since....ages. 
 

Getting rid of them and going to R5, you’re essentially just reverting to the pre-2017 thing aren’t you? These cars are so much more exciting to watch. 

 

Any rally car being driven on the limit by a really top driver is exciting to watch.  Tanak ragging an R5 will be just as good to see as these current ugly bewinged WRCars.  Neuville did the Boucles Legends event this year in a Opel Corsa GTE (the model sold as the Nova by Vauxhall).  FWD 1600cc n/a.  He won. It was great to see such a good driver really extracting 100% from the little car.

 

I would rather see Ogier, Tanak etc in R5s competing against a large field of similar cars driven by the local heroes.  Not insulated in a special class with less than 10 others.  The real beauty of rallying is that it can accomodate so many different sorts of car and every level of driver, all fighting for the same prize. And if Joe Bloggs should surprise everyone by matching or beating the great and good, then wouldn't that be exciting to see?  It used to happen, back when everyone had access to competitive cars, if they had the cash.  You or I could go out and get Opel Manta 400 or even a Stratos and mix it with Rohrl and Munari.  That is possible with R5s, which you can buy from M-Sport or Skoda etc. 

 

If that happens Ford should jump at Latvala and Mikkelsen surely?.  

Ford aren't in the WRC.  M-Sport need money to run drivers.

[JRodrigues]

Any rally car being driven on the limit by a really top driver is exciting to watch.  Tanak ragging an R5 will be just as good to see as these current ugly bewinged WRCars.  Neuville did the Boucles Legends event this year in a Opel Corsa GTE (the model sold as the Nova by Vauxhall).  FWD 1600cc n/a.  He won. It was great to see such a good driver really extracting 100% from the little car.

 

I would rather see Ogier, Tanak etc in R5s competing against a large field of similar cars driven by the local heroes.  Not insulated in a special class with less than 10 others.  The real beauty of rallying is that it can accomodate so many different sorts of car and every level of driver, all fighting for the same prize. And if Joe Bloggs should surprise everyone by matching or beating the great and good, then wouldn't that be exciting to see?  It used to happen, back when everyone had access to competitive cars, if they had the cash.  You or I could go out and get Opel Manta 400 or even a Stratos and mix it with Rohrl and Munari.  That is possible with R5s, which you can buy from M-Sport or Skoda etc. 

 

 

Even Gr.A cars were exciting to watch!

Edited by JRodrigues, 15 November 2019 - 12:12.

[noikeee]

The difference though, is that then we had privateers. Yes, it's slightly boring standing in the forest and looking at the same shape car with a different shade of white go by. At least we had 13-14 WRC cars on most events in 09 and 10, while in 2012, helped a bit by there being a 3rd car to buy, there was often a tiny bit more cars as well.

 

Now we'll have 8-9 WRC cars starting. That's sad. I know we had times in the 90's as well and of course late 80's with very few factory cars, but there was usually a lot of local cars in the top class. We won't have that now, and with the WRC2-WRC3 split, it won't be better there either... I actually struggle to see how they'll get back to heights again, and that is regardless of what Citroën does!

Ok, fair enough, hadn't thought of that.

 

I'm split between wanting everyone to be on an even playing field with R5s, or keeping the current cars because they are so spectacular... both have pros and cons. One thing is for sure, the FIA will have to react in some way, because a field of WRC cars that isn't even enough to cover the points positions is a bit crap.

[sopa]

because a field of WRC cars that isn't even enough to cover the points positions is a bit crap.

 

I think awarding points to top 10 in WRC is a bit extravagant anyway. Usually some smaller classes or local guest drivers fill in the last points positions. In F1 top 10 makes sense, because there are 20 starters and regularly 15+ finishers. But WRC? I think they would do fine with the old top 6 system.

[Myrvold]

I'm split between wanting everyone to be on an even playing field with R5s, or keeping the current cars because they are so spectacular... both have pros and cons. One thing is for sure, the FIA will have to react in some way, because a field of WRC cars that isn't even enough to cover the points positions is a bit crap.

 

I must admit, while I do see that they go faster, it hasn't been amazingly much cooler to watch the WRC cars compared to the good R5 drivers in Rally Sweden.

[Jvr]

So Citroen is out immediately.

 

Shame really.

https://twitter.com/...0018079744?s=20

Edited by Jvr, 20 November 2019 - 10:49.

[Amz964]

Not good to see Citroen withdraw means only 3 manufacturers in the WRC. Shame about Citroen but this was a far cry from the team who won multiple championship with Loeb.

Interesting they put they have withdrew because they don't have Ogier in the car.

[Stephane]

Citroen a bit early on the press release, apparently.

 

We did'nt know Seb Ogier made a decision.

[MadYarpen]

Sounds like they blamed Ogier. It reminds me of how they treated Meeke for some reason.

[Jvr]

Also their tweet shows disrespect to Lappi. Surely he is not (yet) Championship level driver but he is right behind the top boys.

No need to snub him in the announcement indirectly.

[ArnageWRC]

Not good to see Citroen withdraw means only 3 manufacturers in the WRC. Shame about Citroen but this was a far cry from the team who won multiple championship with Loeb.

Interesting they put they have withdrew because they don't have Ogier in the car.

If only it was 3 Manufacturers, then M-Sport could sign the top drivers. They can't because they don't get the financial backing they need from Ford. 

 

Poor PR from Citroen, again!! Since 'returning' in 2017 after their 2016 sabbatical, they've blundered from mistake to mistake. 

 

Once again we have too many drivers and not enough seats. So, there will be talented drivers on the sidelines......again. Not looking good...

[OvDrone]

I have never seen bigger losers than Citroen. What a shitshow.

 

If that's your attitude, then the WRC is better without you.

[Muppetmad]

It's a sad end for a manufacturer which has had such incredible success in the past few decades. When an entire operation hinges on whether a driver stays or goes, though, you know that it's time to move on. That Citroen couldn't do so in a more graceful manner is a pity.

[Jvr]

The story in Finnish media is that Evans will join Ogier at Toyota, because Ogier wanted him. So no way he will be challenging Seb for wins.

Edited by Jvr, 20 November 2019 - 12:00.

[MadYarpen]

Also their tweet shows disrespect to Lappi. Surely he is not (yet) Championship level driver but he is right behind the top boys.

No need to snub him in the announcement indirectly.

Yeah, I meant also that.

 

They didn't show much class - back then, and now. Also I wonder why Ogier is leaving. Surely not because the car is a dog.

[JHSingo]

A pity that when the WRC is in the best shape it has been in a long, long time, just in terms of manufacturer interest and top drivers, one of those manufacturers pulls the plug.

 

I wouldn't say WRC has suddenly tipped back into "crisis" point, but Citroen's exit is definitely a blow. I don't play attention to the WRC rumour mill too much, but has their been any talk of anyone else entering in the near future? And what's the deal with M Sport? I thought they were supposed to be getting factory backing from Ford a while ago...

[TheGoldenStoffel]

Oh man that Citroen press release is such poor taste   

[ArnageWRC]

A pity that when the WRC is in the best shape it has been in a long, long time, just in terms of manufacturer interest and top drivers, one of those manufacturers pulls the plug.

 

I wouldn't say WRC has suddenly tipped back into "crisis" point, but Citroen's exit is definitely a blow. I don't play attention to the WRC rumour mill too much, but has their been any talk of anyone else entering in the near future? And what's the deal with M Sport? I thought they were supposed to be getting factory backing from Ford a while ago...

You say that - but it was unsustainable; massively expensive cars, very few Privateers could afford, let alone some Manufacturers. 

 

Questions have to be asked about ROI, why didn't more Manufacturers sign up? What about the level of media coverage, etc 

[Myrvold]

I'm looking forward to see the media trying to spin WRC2020 as a top year.