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2019 Rallying thread (WRC, ERC, other series)


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#551 Jvr

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:42

Wondering will Ogier keep his word to run only next year and then finish or will he make a longer contract with Toyota.
 

Evans is rumoured to have a two year one...



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#552 Lennat

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:44

To be honest though, I'd rather lose Citroen than having Ogier in a crappy car, or having Toyota left without a top driver.



#553 Lennat

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 12:45

Wondering will Ogier keep his word to run only next year and then finish or will he make a longer contract with Toyota.
 

Evans is rumoured to have a two year one...

 

Toyota would be smart to push for a two year deal, unless they have Neuvile lined up for 2021 or something.



#554 Topsu

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 13:22

This sport is dying, shame.



#555 Stephane

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 13:46

Rally is not just the WRC (which is far from dead)



#556 BRG

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 16:09

And people have often remonstrated with me when I have expressed the view that there should be NO place for manufacturer teams in any area of motor sport.  They just steam in, massively multiply the spending levels necessary to compete and then **** off when they decide they can't win.  Unfortunately, the FIA is owned by car makers, not by competitors. 

 

Next stop for getting screwed over and destroyed, is Formula E.



#557 Branislav

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 16:16

This sport is dying, shame.

I don't think so. Next year it's gonna be Toyota vs Hyundai, Ogier vs Tanak & Neuville, 3 best drivers out there, I don't know what else can be better?



#558 Branislav

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 16:26

Unfortunately, the FIA is owned by car makers, not by competitors. 

 

Which one carmakers?

 

Next stop for getting screwed over and destroyed, is Formula E.

Everyone run there. It's getting bigger and bigger.



#559 Stephane

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 16:31

like every other bubble

 

Everyone was at Le Mans in '99, not so much in '00



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#560 Jvr

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 16:39

I don't think so. Next year it's gonna be Toyota vs Hyundai, Ogier vs Tanak & Neuville, 3 best drivers out there, I don't know what else can be better?

Easy.

 

Somebody beating them to the Championship.

 

I really would love if somebody from M-Sport would level up and get the title next year, since I am quite annoyed that it really looks like Hyundai and Toyota just put all other drivers to support their "top drivers".



#561 BRG

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 16:41

Which one carmakers?

 

It doesn't matter.  if Ford/Renault/Audi/Honda/Toyota/BMW/whoever says 'Jump', the FIA reply is always 'How High?'

 

 

Everyone run there. It's getting bigger and bigger.

 

And more and more expensive and less than less accessible to any entrant other than a manufacturer.  And when the less successful manufacturers get fed up and leave, the bubble bursts and poofff no more Formula E.



#562 sopa

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 18:44

 

Next stop for getting screwed over and destroyed, is Formula E.

 

I think before Formula E goes down, fossil fuel based series go down. I can certainly see FE outliving all of F1, WRC and WEC.



#563 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 18:56

Easy.

Somebody beating them to the Championship.

I really would love if somebody from M-Sport would level up and get the title next year, since I am quite annoyed that it really looks like Hyundai and Toyota just put all other drivers to support their "top drivers".


Lets hope a future superstar Kalle Rovanperä will do it. Tommi Mäkinen said that Kalle already 3 years ago without a single experience with WRC car, was faster than Esapekka Lappi and Teemu Suninen on same car/test road.

But for sure Kalle needs time and experience, but he has the potential to be a next dominant WRC-driver.

#564 Jvr

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 19:00

Lets hope a future superstar Kalle Rovanperä will do it. Tommi Mäkinen said that Kalle already 3 years ago without a single experience with WRC car, was faster than Esapekka Lappi and Teemu Suninen on same car/test road.

But for sure Kalle needs time and experience, but he has the potential to be a next dominant WRC-driver.

Unfortunately, I believe, that Tänak vs. Neuville competition will cause them to drive the wheels off from each other and Ogier will be laughing all the way to the bank since Tommi will not let anybody to challenge Seb.

I was really disappointed with Mäkinen this year when he clearly ordered Meeke and Latvala just to support Ott.

I see no change to that formula with Ogier, based on his comments in the media.



#565 ARTGP

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 22:45

Among other things, was Citroen team boss admitting Peugeot had considered the WRC.



#566 Jvr

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 09:42

Timo Rautiainen: currently selling or leasing of WRC cars to privateers is not allowed by FIA (with very rare exceptions e.g. allowing Bosse Grönholm and Rautiainen himself for one race in Rally Sweden) and now they might reconsider this.

 

Simple question: why in the first place such a restriction?



#567 Burai

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:03

Timo Rautiainen: currently selling or leasing of WRC cars to privateers is not allowed by FIA (with very rare exceptions e.g. allowing Bosse Grönholm and Rautiainen himself for one race in Rally Sweden) and now they might reconsider this.

 

Simple question: why in the first place such a restriction?

 

They were terrified people would buy the '17 Polo and beat the remaining manufacturers. Makes it all the more poetic that M-Sport won that first season.



#568 Anja

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:18

Timo Rautiainen: currently selling or leasing of WRC cars to privateers is not allowed by FIA (with very rare exceptions e.g. allowing Bosse Grönholm and Rautiainen himself for one race in Rally Sweden) and now they might reconsider this.

 

Simple question: why in the first place such a restriction?

 

Because FIA has to protect their precious manufacturers, just the fact that they spend all that money isn't enough of an advantage. You just can't risk privateers beating them, they might pull out of the sport!

 

Oh wait... 



#569 Jvr

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:25

Because FIA has to protect their precious manufacturers, just the fact that they spend all that money isn't enough of an advantage. You just can't risk privateers beating them, they might pull out of the sport!

 

Oh wait... 

Rautiainen also mentioned that FIA was caught by the Citroen announcement pants down...

:p



#570 Myrvold

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:37

Timo Rautiainen: currently selling or leasing of WRC cars to privateers is not allowed by FIA (with very rare exceptions e.g. allowing Bosse Grönholm and Rautiainen himself for one race in Rally Sweden) and now they might reconsider this.

 

Simple question: why in the first place such a restriction?

Uhm - it's still possible to do though. OneBet Jipocar World Rally Team with Østberg driving the Fiesta in 2017 was leased, he did national events with it in Norway, and WRC rounds.

There's an italian team that own a Fiesta, OT Racing has one that Georg Gross uses in Estonia and Latvia. Janne Tuohino have bought a Fiesta for his Jansport team, and rents it out to people who pay. Bertelli reportedly owns the car he has been using as well.

 

I think it's more that the costs are so enormous that it's not viable to do as a privateer. I know Østberg was struggling with every single winglet being expensive, and that the 2017 WRC cars are much harder(complicated) to run than the older WRC cars, which made it harder to get a crew for privateers that were cheap enough, but good enough.

I mean, both Adapta, who have experience running a whole heap of Subaru WRC cars, Mini Cooper WRC and different R5 cars, and Prokops team, who have experience in a whole range of cars, including Dakar - struggled with the 2017 Fiesta. It's not really viable for a team of local heroes to buy and run such a car then.



#571 Jvr

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:56

Uhm - it's still possible to do though. OneBet Jipocar World Rally Team with Østberg driving the Fiesta in 2017 was leased, he did national events with it in Norway, and WRC rounds.

There's an italian team that own a Fiesta, OT Racing has one that Georg Gross uses in Estonia and Latvia. Janne Tuohino have bought a Fiesta for his Jansport team, and rents it out to people who pay. Bertelli reportedly owns the car he has been using as well.

 

I think it's more that the costs are so enormous that it's not viable to do as a privateer. I know Østberg was struggling with every single winglet being expensive, and that the 2017 WRC cars are much harder(complicated) to run than the older WRC cars, which made it harder to get a crew for privateers that were cheap enough, but good enough.

I mean, both Adapta, who have experience running a whole heap of Subaru WRC cars, Mini Cooper WRC and different R5 cars, and Prokops team, who have experience in a whole range of cars, including Dakar - struggled with the 2017 Fiesta. It's not really viable for a team of local heroes to buy and run such a car then.

Well, Rautiainen is the Vice-President of FIA World Rally Championship Commission and I quote what he said yesterday:

 

"The era of the new WRC cars has been kept as a closed circle, where only with the approval of FIA some lone "Grönholms" have been able to start a race (in the championship calendar)" 

 

What you say for sure is true but the privateers have not had full access to the cars even if they had the money nor the rules for them have treated them as equals with the manufacturers.



#572 BRG

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 16:14

I think before Formula E goes down, fossil fuel based series go down. I can certainly see FE outliving all of F1, WRC and WEC.

Not if the manufacturers price it out of reach of everyone else and then bail out  - you know, like Citroen, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Renaut, Ford, Audi, Porsche and VW have all done in the past, along with nearly every other car maker.  Where are the privateer electric racers going to come from to replace the Big Boys?

 

As for fossil fuels, I suspect that, to paraphrase Mark Twain, reports of its death are exaggerated.



#573 Jvr

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 17:32

Not if the manufacturers price it out of reach of everyone else and then bail out  - you know, like Citroen, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Renaut, Ford, Audi, Porsche and VW have all done in the past, along with nearly every other car maker.  Where are the privateer electric racers going to come from to replace the Big Boys?

 

As for fossil fuels, I suspect that, to paraphrase Mark Twain, reports of its death are exaggerated.

Rautiainen also told in the interview, if the manufacturers bail out e.g. with the introduction of the hybrid rules (which by the way sound absolutely unfinished business and right out idiotic now) R5 will become the WDC series.



#574 ArnageWRC

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 19:35

http://racrmc.org/ro...ark-rally/index

 

First stage delayed, and the second cancelled - Fog!! 

 

There is some coverage on Facebook from stage ends, and  'Rally Report' style end of day reports. 

 

I'm heading to Epynt tomorrow to either Halfway, or the Epynt stage...at Llandeilo Fan triangle.



#575 TF110

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 20:08

Not if the manufacturers price it out of reach of everyone else and then bail out  - you know, like Citroen, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Renaut, Ford, Audi, Porsche and VW have all done in the past, along with nearly every other car maker.  Where are the privateer electric racers going to come from to replace the Big Boys?

 

As for fossil fuels, I suspect that, to paraphrase Mark Twain, reports of its death are exaggerated.

There's enough oil reserves right now to last over half a century as of 2013 according to what BP reported ...there's enough oil to last 53+ years, and that number had risen the past 10 years. That means there was MORE oil being found and there's going to be even more as the technology to access it improves. The talk about oil drying up is a lie. Imo, there's going to be enough oil for the entire 21st century, but we'll see what big Governments want to do. Oil will never run out anyway because as things die it adds to that total. Access is the only limiting factor. By the time we use ALL the oil in the entire world, we'd have something that is much easier to use as a source of energy than fuels or batteries etc.


Edited by TF110, 21 November 2019 - 20:19.


#576 Myrvold

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 20:23

Well, Rautiainen is the Vice-President of FIA World Rally Championship Commission and I quote what he said yesterday:

 

"The era of the new WRC cars has been kept as a closed circle, where only with the approval of FIA some lone "Grönholms" have been able to start a race (in the championship calendar)" 

 

What you say for sure is true but the privateers have not had full access to the cars even if they had the money nor the rules for them have treated them as equals with the manufacturers.

 

What's been the case, which Grönholm got a waiver for(and seemingly also Tuohino) - and I think is what Rautiainen is talking about - is that all cars had to be entered by an manufacturer. E.g Østberg in 2017, he was always entered by M-Sport as it wasn't allowed to enter a WRC event with the 2017 WRC cars as a privateer. However, it was OneBet Jipocar that served, ran and did everything with the car, but it had to be entered through M-Sport. Also what Bertelli did this year and 2017 - when he uses the old Fiesta WRC he is entered with FWRT, however, with the new WRC cars he is entered as M-Sport.

 

The hurdle has been that the cars are way too expensive to run, they are not allowed in national championships (or was not allowed - no idea how it is these days. I know Østberg had to get FIA permission to enter Norwegian rallies, even when running outside competition) and only M-Sport are selling the cars. I know Citroën mentioned that they could let PH Sport run cars for privateers, and that they could also be nominated for points, but no one have found that economically viable by the looks of it.



#577 Jvr

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 15:56

Märtin is giving both barrels towards Mäkinen and Toyota.

Sounds like there were some genuine disagreements between the both parties.



#578 Silberpfeil

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 21:11

Märtin is giving both barrels towards Mäkinen and Toyota.

Sounds like there were some genuine disagreements between the both parties.

 


That was a juicy interview from Märtin. Makes you wonder just what Mäkinen was waiting for? Also seems to confirm that the Tänak camp’s issues were more with the leadership of the TMR operation in particular than the car or anything else.

#579 ArnageWRC

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 12:13

Rally is not just the WRC (which is far from dead)

Exactly this. Except on here....

 

Prime example is this weekend; another fabulous running of the Roger Albert Clark Rally; 150+ cars, 300 stage miles through Wales, Kielder, Scotland, a decent variety of cars....



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#580 JRodrigues

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 12:14

That was a juicy interview from Märtin. Makes you wonder just what Mäkinen was waiting for? Also seems to confirm that the Tänak camp’s issues were more with the leadership of the TMR operation in particular than the car or anything else.

 

Well.. There's always two sides of the same story.



#581 Jvr

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:02

Toyota driver lineup. As rumoured Meeke & Latvala out, Ogier, Evans & Rovanperä in.

EDIT: Ogier one year contract, Evans & Rovanperä with two year contracts.

 

https://twitter.com/...0173076482?s=20


Edited by Jvr, 27 November 2019 - 12:05.


#582 Branislav

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 13:37

Where Makinen said is one year for Ogier?

 

 

 

"I'm really pleased with the driver line-up we have been able to put together for next season," said Makinen.

"I believe it provides us with a great balance in our team as we target more championship trophies next year and in the future.

"We know how strong Sebastien is and we're all looking forward to working with him and Julien [Ingrassia, co-driver]. Being able to attract a driver with his record says a lot about what we have achieved in such a short space of time with this team."


Edited by Branislav, 27 November 2019 - 13:39.


#583 Stephane

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 13:50

Ogier said himself he'll retire after 2020.



#584 MadYarpen

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 13:56

I've read it is 2 years actually, contrary to what Ogier said some time ago.

 

Full release: https://toyotagazoor...rc/1127-01.html

 

That's a disgusting way to say good bye to your drivers... Oh wait.



#585 Danyy

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 14:52

I've read it is 2 years actually, contrary to what Ogier said some time ago.

Full release: https://toyotagazoor...rc/1127-01.html

That's a disgusting way to say good bye to your drivers... Oh wait.


I hope it’s for 2.. where have you read this?

#586 Jvr

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 16:15

Mäkinen told Ogier one year contract directly to Finnish media.

Also he told Toyota did not buy Ogier's contract out from Citroen.



#587 MadYarpen

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 17:12

OK, so I was wrong. I think I saw this somewhere on twitter.



#588 Branislav

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 17:58

Ogier said himself he'll retire after 2020.

I know that but he changed his mind.



#589 Chmielinski

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 17:59

Probably the best lineup you could assemble. A champion of today, a quick and safe pair of hands and the biggest young prospect. Good job Tommi.

 

Looks like Toyota might bag a nice Red Bull sponsorship deal as well, since all 3 of them (AFAIK) are Red Bull athletes.



#590 messy

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 01:26

Oh no, the Red Bull logo smeared all over the neat Toyota livery. Hadn’t thought of that Ogier by-product :(

#591 Silberpfeil

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 17:51

So, Rally Chile has been cancelled. A shame, I quite enjoyed this year’s edition.

#592 BRG

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 20:04

So, Rally Chile has been cancelled. A shame, I quite enjoyed this year’s edition.

That's a shame.  I was unsure about it at first, Chile hardly being a place that you associated with rallying, but the standard of the stages was just so good.  Proper smooth gravel like Finland, Australia or the UK rather than dusty car-breaking rocks like all the other non-tarmac rallies.



#593 Jvr

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 20:27

Akio Toyoda is trolling Tänak on press. Well, well...

Edited by Jvr, 28 November 2019 - 20:29.


#594 messy

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 20:33

I really liked Chile too. I’m fed up of all the rough gravel dustfests really, they’ve all been so similar. So nice to see an event that’s a bit different.

#595 ArnageWRC

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 10:41

I really liked Chile too. I’m fed up of all the rough gravel dustfests really, they’ve all been so similar. So nice to see an event that’s a bit different.

 

I've never understood the need for all these dusty, dry events? Yet they won't have a fair split of Tarmac events. More muddled thinking from those in charge. Rallying could/should be the most 'road relevant' motorsport for Manufacturers, but, well, it just isn't. I'm not sure all these dry, dusty events actually sells the sport particularly well. 



#596 BRG

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 20:43

Interesting 'Lunch with Tommi Makinen' article in the latest Motor Sport. Worth reading as he rarely opens up like this.  I hadn't realised that he had driven such a variety of cars, you just always associate him with the Mitsubishi Evos.



#597 Vielleicht

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 09:43

The 2019-20 Trophée Andros started this weekend. This year the ice racing series is using electric cars as its top class. They're mostly a spec 'Andros Sport' with two of teams in silhoutte AudiA1 and Peugeot 208 bodywork, but there is an actual race prepared Renault Zoe. Which is cool.

 

Official website live timing/streming link

http://www.tropheean...-streaming.html

 

Edit: stream has just gone live


Edited by Vielleicht, 08 December 2019 - 09:54.