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Ferrari: Arrivabene out?


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#101 DeKnyff

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 19:49

I think this is just daft. They're much better now than they were when Arrivabene took over. This could set them back another couple of years. And for no reason. It's amazing how they've forgotten the lessons of the Todt-Brawn-Byrne era; stability brings success.

The perception that Ferrari is now much better than when Arrivabene took over is highly influenced by how bad Ferrari was in 2014, their worse year since the arrival of Michael Schumacher in 1996. That season was hampered by a subpar hybrid engine design (later improved), miles behind the Mercedes one and even behind the Renault. Other than this, the Domenicali period was at least as good as Arrivabene´s: Ferrari took the Championship to the wire in 2010 and 2012, they were genuinely as quick as Red Bull in 2011 the only day (British GP) the blowing exhaust were restricted and seemed on their way for a Championship challenge in 2013 before the tyres were changed. In 2009-2013 , they always won at least one race and often several races. Better than 2015-2018, IMO.



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#102 w1Y

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 19:51

New management can politicise themselves in when they know something is strong. Its in the timing to come in and look like you made all the difference.

Happened with merc and pushing Brawn out.

#103 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 20:11

If it wasn't for Vettel, the only thing to talk about in the last decade of F1 would be whether Hamilton can beat Schumacher clinching the title in July.

It's fair enough to be disappointed that F1's championship battles have been rather dull since 2012, but how about spreading the love to the other 18 underperforming also-rans? One of them even has the same car Hamilton has!


Or, alternatively, put Verstappen in the car and we might be talking about the final race title deciding showdown that we have just had...

#104 SebMat

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 20:35

It will be a little tough year for Vettel. Pretty good teammate and first time not a team bosses blue-eyed boy  :smoking:

Can't wait to see what is 4-times champion really worth. 



#105 barnardferrari

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 20:42

I thought it was til the end of 2019...did I misremember a la Bill Clinton?

 

The contract runs until the end of 2020, but there have been articles about termination clauses after 2019.



#106 AustinF1

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 20:50

The contract runs until the end of 2020, but there have been articles about termination clauses after 2019.

Yeah that sounds familiar. Thanks!



#107 ferrarista

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 21:26

Ah the esteemed minds of the autosport racing forums have decreed again that the most winning F1 team and one of the top car manufacturers in the world don't know what they're doing and it's all wrong wrong wrong. 😁

yeah exactly 😁

Now the question is: which role will MA have at the super uber dream team of Toto?
Because we know Mercedes is smart enough to take the people pushed out from Maranello; or, if they don’t, we can be pretty sure that Ferrari was right to get rid of MA 😁

Edited by ferrarista, 07 January 2019 - 21:27.


#108 Cirio

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 21:37

It will be a little tough year for Vettel. Pretty good teammate and first time not a team bosses blue-eyed boy  :smoking:

Can't wait to see what is 4-times champion really worth. 

Yup.  :up:



#109 Calorus

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 21:40

yeah exactly

Now the question is: which role will MA have at the super uber dream team of Toto?
Because we know Mercedes is smart enough to take the people pushed out from Maranello; or, if they don’t, we can be pretty sure that Ferrari was right to get rid of MA

 

Question isn't so much "Is Arrivabene any good" as  "Is Arrivabene any bad". He wasn't the problem, frankly the car wasn't and the team weren't. If you'd have swapped Hamilton the results would have be starker. Vettel lobbed points away like they were toxic, but all this change means is that the man who successfully oversaw the (on balance) best car of 2019 will now be responsible for making sure that catering is being looked after and the loos are clean.


Edited by Calorus, 07 January 2019 - 21:40.


#110 Ali623

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 22:48

Or, alternatively, put Verstappen in the car and we might be talking about the final race title deciding showdown that we have just had...

 

Ah yes, because Verstappen never made any mistakes last year... assuming we completely disregard the entire first quarter of the season. 



#111 warp

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 23:08

...And also what negative impact his departure from the technical department could have.

 

 

 

This is of particular concern.

 

He was doing great in the technical department.

 

Who is taking over from him?



#112 danmills

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 23:28

What crap news. The guy was a breath of fresh air for Ferrari. Vettel let Ferrari down more than him. Stupid time to do this, you can tell they will blame any 2019 failure on this before it has started. Honestly, the timing is woeful.

#113 danmills

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 23:30

Side thought... chances of him ending up at Sauber?

#114 as65p

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 23:33

 

Not quite. It's saying that Vettel was the one making these championships interesting. It's fair enough that some think Rosberg was an interesting foil for Hamilton, but I don't. Other than those three dreadfully boring years, Vettel has been the man in the championship spotlight, right from 2009 through to today.

 

Why others weren't around to compete for championships is their problem. It is of course true that I neglected to mention Alonso was also major player in 2010 and 2012, as these were three or even four-way squabbles. Fair enough.

 

As I see it, everyone counting himself a top driver (as Vettel no doubt does and rightfully so on the base of his former successes) has an obligation to at the very least make championships interesting with cars like the Ferraris of the last two years. IOW, Vettel as a driver did about the bare minimum of what should be expected of him. But you phrased it as if we had to thank him for an outstanding job... not quite.


Edited by as65p, 07 January 2019 - 23:34.


#115 sabjit

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 23:41

As I see it, everyone counting himself a top driver (as Vettel no doubt does and rightfully so on the base of his former successes) has an obligation to at the very least make championships interesting with cars like the Ferraris of the last two years. IOW, Vettel as a driver did about the bare minimum of what should be expected of him. But you phrased it as if we had to thank him for an outstanding job... not quite.

 

I somewhat agree, Vettel has had championship challenging cars for the last two seasons and both times has lost by healthy margins. If Ferrari had Lewis in the car the story may have been different.



#116 AustinF1

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 23:44

I somewhat agree, Vettel has had championship challenging cars for the last two seasons and both times has lost by healthy margins. If Ferrari had Lewis in the car the story may have been different.

Or others...



#117 baddog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:11

It could be that you guys have no idea what you are talking about, and Ferrari have looked at the whole picture of how the team ran in the last years, did not think it was running as it should, and made a rational decision for their future.

 

But hey you came here to re-post your 'endless loop' of Vettel bashing so go for it.



#118 MikeV1987

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:18

Mark Hughes doesn’t seem to be a fan of Arrivabene to say the least

https://www.motorspo...friends-ferrari

Edited by MikeV1987, 08 January 2019 - 00:20.


#119 as65p

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:29

It could be that you guys have no idea what you are talking about, and Ferrari have looked at the whole picture of how the team ran in the last years, did not think it was running as it should, and made a rational decision for their future.

 

But hey you came here to re-post your 'endless loop' of Vettel bashing so go for it.

 

Now don't pretend you know any better than the next guy... aren't you just here to "endless-loop" defend Vettel?  ;)

 

But of course there might be some truth in it, in fact I doubt anyone would claim Ferrari under MA always run things perfect as a team. While there might be some occasions where one could partly blame the team (Monza for example), there are also quite a few blunders which were 100 percent on the driver, Baku '17 and Hockenheim '18, to name just two. Even an imaginary superhero teamleader in MA's position could have done nothing to prevent those Vettel mistakes.



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#120 thefinalapex

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:32

Ah a Ferrari thread, Nevermind lets bash Vettel instead much more fun😉

#121 as65p

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:33

Mark Hughes doesn’t seem to be a fan of Arrivabene to say the least

https://www.motorspo...friends-ferrari

 

Same with Scott Mitchell

 

https://www.autospor...itch-arrivabene

 

Not that i ever was a fan of MA, quite the contrary, but I do find this sudden bashing a bit, uhm... unpleasant, to say the least. IIRC there wasn't anywhere near that kind of open criticism as long as the guy was in charge.



#122 RacingGreen

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:33

Not sure what to make of this news. It's not as if  Arrivabene was doing a particularly bad job, (as seen from outside the team) or was the reason they lost the championship - it's just that Toto Wolff ( and Lewis Hamilton ) are better. Sure someone needs to take responsibility but there is a difference between that and making someone a scapegoat. 

 

Also Mattia Binotto has done an excellent job on the technical side - but that doesn't mean he will be a better team principal although at least it's a logical appointment unlike moving Marco Mattiacci from selling cars in America into the racing team.

 

 



#123 baddog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:42

Now don't pretend you know any better than the next guy... aren't you just here to "endless-loop" defend Vettel?  ;)

 

But of course there might be some truth in it, in fact I doubt anyone would claim Ferrari under MA always run things perfect as a team. While there might be some occasions where one could partly blame the team (Monza for example), there are also quite a few blunders which were 100 percent on the driver, Baku '17 and Hockenheim '18, to name just two. Even an imaginary superhero teamleader in MA's position could have done nothing to prevent those Vettel mistakes.

 

No I didn't bring Vettel into this thread at all, and think his driving has no real part in the removal of the team manager.. I thought most people had concluded Arrivabene was really out of his depth and the team has seemed badly run for a long time with many strange decisions and a reportedly horrible management style, so am suprised to see much push-back to his firing.

 

But then I haven't seen much objection here that cannot be summed up as just 'Vettel crap, why they no fire him'. I don't see many actual comments about him other that one 'he was a breath of fresh air for Ferrari' and some people just attributing the team's overall good form in recent years to him without further explanation, which seems not to be the opinion of the Company.



#124 baddog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:42

Same with Scott Mitchell

 

https://www.autospor...itch-arrivabene

 

Not that i ever was a fan of MA, quite the contrary, but I do find this sudden bashing a bit, uhm... unpleasant, to say the least. IIRC there wasn't anywhere near that kind of open criticism as long as the guy was in charge.

 

Maybe if he can no longer use his position to threaten them with lack of access they feel free to say what they already thought?



#125 as65p

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 00:52

Maybe if he can no longer use his position to threaten them with lack of access they feel free to say what they already thought?

 

Maybe. It put's all those inside stories we get into perspective, doesn't it? Might as well ignore everything being written about leading team personal until the day those guys are out of their jobs with no chance to ever return into positions of power.



#126 HP

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 01:40

According to Scott Mitchell Arrivabene was to be out in summer already as planned by Marchionne. He was to be replaced by Binotto. Seems that the death of Marchionne delayed the inevitable. And that probably explains some of the things that happened in the 2nd half of the season.

 

Knowing that the change of leadership was planned for a while makes me more confident again about this year.



#127 Enzoluis

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:06

The perception that Ferrari is now much better than when Arrivabene took over is highly influenced by how bad Ferrari was in 2014, their worse year since the arrival of Michael Schumacher in 1996. That season was hampered by a subpar hybrid engine design (later improved), miles behind the Mercedes one and even behind the Renault. Other than this, the Domenicali period was at least as good as Arrivabene´s: Ferrari took the Championship to the wire in 2010 and 2012, they were genuinely as quick as Red Bull in 2011 the only day (British GP) the blowing exhaust were restricted and seemed on their way for a Championship challenge in 2013 before the tyres were changed. In 2009-2013 , they always won at least one race and often several races. Better than 2015-2018, IMO.


The Domenicali era was descending, every year worst, every year worst decisions. (Like firing Costa). Arrivabene era were most upward, hiring the right people without looking for scapegoats.

#128 baddog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:12

The Domenicali era was descending, every year worst, every year worst decisions. (Like firing Costa). Arrivabene era were most upward, hiring the right people without looking for scapegoats.

 

Was he the one making those decisions though. It does seem that Marchionne was heavily in control of the big stuff.



#129 kumo7

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:20

MA stayed for four years, at Ferrari F1, coming from tobacco advertisement.

Well done, I would say.

 

The last we have seen like him was Flav.

 

We will see how MB will fair. 

Journal beating MA does not mean that MB is the right one.



#130 HP

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:21

Was he the one making those decisions though. It does seem that Marchionne was heavily in control of the big stuff.

Marchionne was also mostly in control behind Arrivebene's big stuff.

 

Make of it as you will.



#131 HP

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:23

MA stayed for four years, at Ferrari F1, coming from tobacco advertisement.

Well done, I would say.

 

The last we have seen like him was Flav.

 

We will see how MB will fair. 

Journal beating MA does not mean that MB is the right one.

 

As long as it's an improvement for Ferrari, I'm fine with anyone.



#132 kumo7

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:55

We will see.



#133 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 03:05

Now don't pretend you know any better than the next guy... aren't you just here to "endless-loop" defend Vettel?  ;)

But of course there might be some truth in it, in fact I doubt anyone would claim Ferrari under MA always run things perfect as a team. While there might be some occasions where one could partly blame the team (Monza for example), there are also quite a few blunders which were 100 percent on the driver, Baku '17 and Hockenheim '18, to name just two. Even an imaginary superhero teamleader in MA's position could have done nothing to prevent those Vettel mistakes.


Hockenheim is definitely not 100% on Vettel. Driver mistakes don't happen in a vacuum, and the colossal blunder that lead to the mistake is absolutely on the management. This was the big turning point of the season, and everything else that happened is a result of this.

#134 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 03:28

Or others...

 

I don't agree. I think part of the reason Hamilton was as succesfull as he was this year is because he was in such a stable environment focused on his campaign. You put him in a team with Ferrari's antics after the halfway point with the guy in the Merc having the same situation he did and Lewis has shown plenty of times that he's just as likely to loose his **** and screw up as Vettel was.



#135 AustinF1

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 03:46

I don't agree. I think part of the reason Hamilton was as succesfull as he was this year is because he was in such a stable environment focused on his campaign. You put him in a team with Ferrari's antics after the halfway point with the guy in the Merc having the same situation he did and Lewis has shown plenty of times that he's just as likely to loose his **** and screw up as Vettel was.

It don't necessarily disagree that Lewis can lose his composure when things aren't going well. Let me put it this way though ... imho if Lewis could have won it all in the Ferrari this year, then there are others who could have as well. Indeed, maybe there are a couple who even might have done better than Lewis, reacting well to adversity. It's all speculation tho.



#136 HP

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 05:17

I don't agree. I think part of the reason Hamilton was as succesfull as he was this year is because he was in such a stable environment focused on his campaign. You put him in a team with Ferrari's antics after the halfway point with the guy in the Merc having the same situation he did and Lewis has shown plenty of times that he's just as likely to loose his **** and screw up as Vettel was.

 

 

It don't necessarily disagree that Lewis can lose his composure when things aren't going well. Let me put it this way though ... imho if Lewis could have won it all in the Ferrari this year, then there are others who could have as well. Indeed, maybe there are a couple who even might have done better than Lewis, reacting well to adversity. It's all speculation tho.

 

I don't think it's about the drivers anyway There are team bosses that can build up a team in a positive way. Others not. Just look at how Wolff is working with Bottas. Some other team bosses would have dropped Bottas already. Or how Wolff clawed back last years championship.

 

Where drivers can make a difference is probably best seen with MSC and LH. If they also contribute to the overall uplifting atmosphere within the team and deliver top performances, then things start to look very good. But if the team is unstable, then things don't look good. Regardless if it's a top driver or not.



#137 motorhead

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 05:24

Or, alternatively, put Verstappen in the car and we might be talking about the final race title deciding showdown that we have just had...

 

Or Mercedes was just clearly a better car in the second half of the season. 



#138 Vesuvius

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:08

Big mistake from Ferrari.

#139 Flamini

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:44

During last year’s Chinese Grand Prix weekend the renowned F1 technical illustrator Giorgio Piola photographed the steering wheel that Sebastian Vettel had placed atop of the Ferrari’s cockpit when in the pitlane.

Giorgio then drew the wheel and wrote about the extra control that it featured. The following day Arrivabene accosted Piola, growled menaces at him, drew himself close up to his face and promised that he would see to it Piola would lose work. The incident gave a good measure of the man.

 

 

Oh.


Edited by Flamini, 08 January 2019 - 07:44.


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#140 FirstWatt

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 08:18

I don't think getting rid of Arrivabene was a mistake at all.

 

However, I'm not sure taking away Binotto from what he did in a more than excellent manner, developing the arguably overall best car with his team, won't weaken that department.

And again, it's not a given that an excellent technical director will also be an excellent team boss. And it's not only about managing two drivers, one of them as talented as the other, and very young, hungry, and maybe without much reverential respect.

 

There is no Marchionne anymore, to prevent ambitious people to stab him in the back.



#141 Loosenut

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 08:29

**** you Fernando! How dare you say our team ain't good enough!

 

Dominicali, pack your bags, this ain't good enough!

Arrivabene, pack your bags, this ain't good enough!

:lol:


Edited by Loosenut, 08 January 2019 - 08:30.


#142 Nemo1965

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 08:51

Amazingly, my take on Ferrari for about twenty years (EDIT: 40 years or more!) seems to come back every decade. For Ferrari to win (without an distorting scandal like in 2007) they not only need a good car, a good driver, a good manager... they need a kongsi, an iron core that drives the team forward. Ferrari needs a driver that is both excellent driving wise AND political savy, a teammanager that protects that driver from management and a technical 'man' that operates as the switch between driver and the technical department.

 

Lauda, Montezemolo, Cuoghi could do it.

Schumacher, Todt, Brawn, Byrne could do it.

 

Prost could not do it.

Alonso could not do it.

Vettel won't.

LeClerc... I don't know. Perhaps if he is the second coming.


Edited by Nemo1965, 08 January 2019 - 08:53.


#143 screamingV16

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:13

Hockenheim is definitely not 100% on Vettel. Driver mistakes don't happen in a vacuum, and the colossal blunder that lead to the mistake is absolutely on the management. This was the big turning point of the season, and everything else that happened is a result of this.

 

What nonsense. Even with external pressures, plenty of driver plenty errors can be put squarely on the shoulder of the driver concerned, particularly when they're a 4 x WDC in a situaution that wasn't make or break - he could have come 2nd and retained the WDC lead. Besides you can't dismiss what pressures/extrenal issues the other drivers out there that day were under and none of them made that same mistake. Vettel made a big error all by himself that day (as he has on other days/in other seasons) and don't think even he'd deny that, just listen to his voice on the radio in the immediate aftemath.



#144 screamingV16

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:13

What nonsense. Even with external pressures, plenty of driver plenty errors can be put squarely on the shoulder of the driver concerned, particularly when they're a 4 x WDC in a situaution that wasn't make or break - he could have come 2nd and retained the WDC lead. Besides you can't dismiss what pressures/extrenal issues the other drivers out there that day were under and none of them made that level of mistake. Vettel made a big error all by himself that day (as he has on other days/in other seasons) and don't think even he'd deny that, just listen to his voice on the radio in the immediate aftemath.



#145 ViMaMo

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:27

Not a good decision at all. The man has done a fantastic job bringing Ferrari to competition.

What they needed to do was re negotiate Vettel's salary, get him to focus on 2019.

#146 pacificquay

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:39

Sensible decision.

 

He alienated his staff, he had to go.



#147 MrMonaco

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:42

Amazingly, my take on Ferrari for about twenty years (EDIT: 40 years or more!) seems to come back every decade. For Ferrari to win (without an distorting scandal like in 2007) they not only need a good car, a good driver, a good manager... they need a kongsi, an iron core that drives the team forward. Ferrari needs a driver that is both excellent driving wise AND political savy, a teammanager that protects that driver from management and a technical 'man' that operates as the switch between driver and the technical department.

 

Lauda, Montezemolo, Cuoghi could do it.

Schumacher, Todt, Brawn, Byrne could do it.

 

Prost could not do it.

Alonso could not do it.

Vettel won't.

LeClerc... I don't know. Perhaps if he is the second coming.

 

Prost and Alonso never really had fastest or equally fastest car on the grid. The biggest Ferrari bottlejobs in recent years was 2008 and 2018 - in both occasions title seemed right there for the taking. In retrospect I would rate 2008 as way worse than Vettel's shenanigans last year.



#148 Nonesuch

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:53


Vettel as a driver did about the bare minimum of what should be expected of him. But you phrased it as if we had to thank him for an outstanding job... not quite.

 
Thank him or not, he is still the only guy to do something to make it interesting. Mildly interesting, barely, perhaps.
 
But everyone else might as well not have turned up for the purposes of the championship. Even Mercedes' #2 of choice was a complete irrelevance.
 

Or others...

 
Ferrari had others. They also failed. Heck, they even failed when Ferrari led the WDC into the final race.

Ferrari should have learned from those post-Todt years that it's no use sticking with people who - for whatever reason - can't do the job.
 
That seemed to change somewhat with Marchionne, but it still took a while with Räikkönen.

Arrivabene made a good contribution to the team, but by 2018 there was no more upwards trend. That's as good a time as any to bring in someone new.



#149 Nonesuch

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:56

Dominicali, pack your bags, this ain't good enough!

 

That would have been the best thing to happen to Ferrari after 2010.

 

The way he handled the EBD in 2011 was a total embarrassment.

 

Then in 2012 he rolled over and accepted the FIA letting Red Bull win races with an illegal floor that the FIA kinda, sorta, demanded they immediately change - but hey, no problem having them keep the points, right? Right, Stefano?

 

Never mind sticking with Massa for all these years.

 

What a disaster.

 


#150 as65p

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 10:14

Hockenheim is definitely not 100% on Vettel. Driver mistakes don't happen in a vacuum,

By that token, no driver mistake is ever completely the drivers fault. If you apply that always, fair enough,

 

I*d like to stick with a more conventional assessment, separating stuff like Monza (failure of the team to enforce a smart first lap strategy = team shares responsibility for putting their lead driver into a difficult position) and Hockenheim (driver binning it with a 10sec lead = 100 percent driver error. Even if the team could have made it a 20sec lead with perfect strategy, that in now way excuses the driver throwing it all away.)